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Summoner Sit-Down: xNig

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    naikavonnaikavon Posts: 298 ★★★
    I agree and disagree with your sentiment regarding difficulty and entitlement.

    I do think many players do have a sense of entitlement and want rewards for little effort. And I do agree that part of that entitlement stems from overwhelming earlier content with too high of a roster and running into a brick wall later because skills are lacking.

    All that said, where we diverge is on the opinion of book content. I've said it once, and I'll say it a billion times, story content is content most developers actually want the majority of their players to complete. That necessitates it being a little easier. As the majority of players are average, by definition. Remember, we are talking about majority of the masses. Not the elite. And not the scrubs. The average player.

    Abyss? Make it as hard as you can. Variants? Fair game. Those are extras. Yes people may complain that those content pieces are too hard, but, well you can't please everyone.

    All that said, I can understand where you are coming from and respect your opinion 💯
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    Will3808Will3808 Posts: 3,536 ★★★★★

    There is probably a better way to implement a solution, but I like your point about the entitlement springing from steamrolling easy content. I can’t remember the last person who got UC with anything less than at least 1 4/55. I remember I did it back in the day with a 5/50 and 4 4/40s. That isn’t to say “it was hard for me so it should be hard for you,” but there is no reason, especially with the champs getting better and better (my team was Magik LC AA NC and Thor post 12.0), for them to take that long. The quicker early progression is good in that it doesn’t take a billion years to reach the top dogs, but it probably does create that entitlement in the newer players.

    The reason you can’t remember the last time someone got uncollected without r4 5*s is because those of us who did it without don’t complain all the time. I know from personal experience that there is a good chunk of the player base who has gotten uncollected and cav with the rank champions most of the originals did we’re just not as loud and noisy.
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    Will3808Will3808 Posts: 3,536 ★★★★★
    People complaining will always be part of every game and we’ve all just got to ignore them
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,250 ★★★★★
    edited November 2020


    I believe all these stemmed from newer players being able to bulldoze their way through earlier progressional content from the handouts Kabam gives out. And when they reach a wall that they aren’t able to bulldoze through with higher ranked champs, they cry foul and deem it a moneygrab.

    Since 6.1 beta, I’ve been asking Kabam to gate progressional content (eg Story Acts, followed by recurring content, eg AQ) behind Story Act Exploration. In additional, players shouldn’t be able to use rank up materials haven’t been earned from Story Content (eg no 5* R4s until A4 exploration as that’s where you first earned T2As, which subsequently also means no Map 6, and T2A earned from ranked rewards will be stored in inventory until unlocked).

    I strongly agree. You shouldn't be able to start Act 6 before you fully explored Act 4 (I wish there was a title for it, like Maestro Buster), and you shouldn't be able to start Book 1 unless you're Elder's Bane. Cavalier EQ and legendary difficulty should require level 60 (which you should have if you've explored Act 4).

    The only thing I disagree with @xNig is blocking materials from using. It is greatly unfair to arbitrary and directly block a player's roster based on story exploration. It is typical generation resentment: "I had a tough time with a lot of pain, so should you!" I used two R4 5* to become Uncollected. Maybe that makes me lesser worthy UC'er in his eyes, but I waited longer to become UC (I'm F2P, Unit Man was less of an option) and missed opportunities due that. If you're not as rich, skilled or confident player, I see no problem why you shouldn't be able to use R4 5*.
    The reason I had to suggest that, was because the higher rank up materials are the main reason why people were steamrolling earlier content. 😂

    An early piece of content that’s designed for 4*R5s will lose its meaning when done with 5*R5s.
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,250 ★★★★★
    Moot4Life said:

    well done xNig and Spidey!! :)

    Thanks!

    Thank you @SpideyFunko for the interview as well. Enjoy your break!!
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,250 ★★★★★
    RogerRabs said:

    I have a question. What's the longest amount of time you've gone without telling another player you were in the beta and that it was much harder than what they released?

    Pretty long. Lol
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,250 ★★★★★
    Will3808 said:

    There is probably a better way to implement a solution, but I like your point about the entitlement springing from steamrolling easy content. I can’t remember the last person who got UC with anything less than at least 1 4/55. I remember I did it back in the day with a 5/50 and 4 4/40s. That isn’t to say “it was hard for me so it should be hard for you,” but there is no reason, especially with the champs getting better and better (my team was Magik LC AA NC and Thor post 12.0), for them to take that long. The quicker early progression is good in that it doesn’t take a billion years to reach the top dogs, but it probably does create that entitlement in the newer players.

    The reason you can’t remember the last time someone got uncollected without r4 5*s is because those of us who did it without don’t complain all the time. I know from personal experience that there is a good chunk of the player base who has gotten uncollected and cav with the rank champions most of the originals did we’re just not as loud and noisy.
    Tbh, what I’ve seen mostly of those who are complaining, it is that they are too far from the minimum threshold that the content was designed for, be it roster or skill wise.

    Couple that with impatience, a sense of entitlement from steamrolling earlier content made easier by newer and stronger champs, and handouts from Kabam, what we with get is people calling BS for interactions they don’t understand or lack the know-how to get past.
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,250 ★★★★★
    Kill_Grey said:

    Is that a rank 3 6* Aarkus? 👀

    Yeah. Mega mind. 😉
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    QacobQacob Posts: 2,253 ★★★★★
    @SpideyFunko please please please message KD and see if he is willing to summoner sit-down before he leaves... please
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    xNig said:

    Will3808 said:

    There is probably a better way to implement a solution, but I like your point about the entitlement springing from steamrolling easy content. I can’t remember the last person who got UC with anything less than at least 1 4/55. I remember I did it back in the day with a 5/50 and 4 4/40s. That isn’t to say “it was hard for me so it should be hard for you,” but there is no reason, especially with the champs getting better and better (my team was Magik LC AA NC and Thor post 12.0), for them to take that long. The quicker early progression is good in that it doesn’t take a billion years to reach the top dogs, but it probably does create that entitlement in the newer players.

    The reason you can’t remember the last time someone got uncollected without r4 5*s is because those of us who did it without don’t complain all the time. I know from personal experience that there is a good chunk of the player base who has gotten uncollected and cav with the rank champions most of the originals did we’re just not as loud and noisy.
    Tbh, what I’ve seen mostly of those who are complaining, it is that they are too far from the minimum threshold that the content was designed for, be it roster or skill wise.

    Couple that with impatience, a sense of entitlement from steamrolling earlier content made easier by newer and stronger champs, and handouts from Kabam, what we with get is people calling BS for interactions they don’t understand or lack the know-how to get past.
    No game is going to be for everyone. Some will like it and some will not, and that's not the fault of the game: it is an impossible task to make a game everyone will like, because people have different and incompatible wants for a game. That's fine. So a game should give players a good indication of what it is about very early on, so players know what to expect. The people who don't want to play your game should figure that out quickly enough before they've invested too much time into it and discover they've poured a huge amount of effort and maybe money into something they won't like.

    But you also want to make the game attractive to new players, so this has to be balanced. If you throw the worst at your new players early you won't have any veteran players. This is tricky to balance. But what amplifies this problem is that the longer a (progressional) game lasts, the higher its progress ladder extends, the harder this problem becomes, because a new problem creeps in. It is very difficult to manage a game when the progress ladder gets very long, because it becomes increasingly difficult to give every rung of that ladder the attention it deserves. You want to funnel most of your effort into the parts of the game where most of your players live. And there's typically a rough bell curve where at any one moment in time most of your players are living at a certain point in the game (this is an oversimplification for discussion purposes, real population curves tend to be more complex: for example they tend to pile up at certain places, like at the very top). At the high end, you try to soft cap player progress to prevent them from pushing the top too far too fast. But there's also a lot of incentive to speed up the players below the curve so they spend less time there. That way you accelerate them into the part of the game where the focus is.

    This acceleration isn't necessary when the game first launches, but it becomes an increasing factor the longer the game lasts. And that acceleration acts to manage the range of players in the game, but it has the side effect of amplifying the difference between the early game and the latter game, because the early game is being accelerated and the late game is being decelerated to manage an ever widening progress range. And that can encourage progress entitlement, unfortunately, because players expectations are being set by unsustainable circumstances that change as the player progresses through the game.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,248 ★★★★★
    Another good sit down. Thanks Spidey!
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    Kill_GreyKill_Grey Posts: 8,666 ★★★★★
    xNig said:

    Kill_Grey said:

    Is that a rank 3 6* Aarkus? 👀

    Yeah. Mega mind. 😉
    How does your device fare with respect to his animations tho?
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    Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
    Arsoz said:


    I believe all these stemmed from newer players being able to bulldoze their way through earlier progressional content from the handouts Kabam gives out. And when they reach a wall that they aren’t able to bulldoze through with higher ranked champs, they cry foul and deem it a moneygrab.

    Since 6.1 beta, I’ve been asking Kabam to gate progressional content (eg Story Acts, followed by recurring content, eg AQ) behind Story Act Exploration. In additional, players shouldn’t be able to use rank up materials haven’t been earned from Story Content (eg no 5* R4s until A4 exploration as that’s where you first earned T2As, which subsequently also means no Map 6, and T2A earned from ranked rewards will be stored in inventory until unlocked).

    I strongly agree. You shouldn't be able to start Act 6 before you fully explored Act 4 (I wish there was a title for it, like Maestro Buster), and you shouldn't be able to start Book 1 unless you're Elder's Bane. Cavalier EQ and legendary difficulty should require level 60 (which you should have if you've explored Act 4).

    Bruh what might as well make book 2 require Thronebreaker

    That makes no sense.
  • Options
    Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
    xNig said:


    I believe all these stemmed from newer players being able to bulldoze their way through earlier progressional content from the handouts Kabam gives out. And when they reach a wall that they aren’t able to bulldoze through with higher ranked champs, they cry foul and deem it a moneygrab.

    Since 6.1 beta, I’ve been asking Kabam to gate progressional content (eg Story Acts, followed by recurring content, eg AQ) behind Story Act Exploration. In additional, players shouldn’t be able to use rank up materials haven’t been earned from Story Content (eg no 5* R4s until A4 exploration as that’s where you first earned T2As, which subsequently also means no Map 6, and T2A earned from ranked rewards will be stored in inventory until unlocked).

    I strongly agree. You shouldn't be able to start Act 6 before you fully explored Act 4 (I wish there was a title for it, like Maestro Buster), and you shouldn't be able to start Book 1 unless you're Elder's Bane. Cavalier EQ and legendary difficulty should require level 60 (which you should have if you've explored Act 4).

    The only thing I disagree with @xNig is blocking materials from using. It is greatly unfair to arbitrary and directly block a player's roster based on story exploration. It is typical generation resentment: "I had a tough time with a lot of pain, so should you!" I used two R4 5* to become Uncollected. Maybe that makes me lesser worthy UC'er in his eyes, but I waited longer to become UC (I'm F2P, Unit Man was less of an option) and missed opportunities due that. If you're not as rich, skilled or confident player, I see no problem why you shouldn't be able to use R4 5*.
    The reason I had to suggest that, was because the higher rank up materials are the main reason why people were steamrolling earlier content. 😂

    An early piece of content that’s designed for 4*R5s will lose its meaning when done with 5*R5s.
    @xNig
    Seeing T2a and T5b is not easy to get for conquerors (or downright impossible), we will not see them with 5* R5 yet.

    I don't think the rank-up materials are the issue, but the shards. I'm following a general gamer on YouTube. He started like 6 months ago but he already has a 6* without being UC. I've been playing for 3 years, I became UC in January 2020 but I wasn't even halfway a 6*. This guy got lucky he started before Summoner Appreciation and got more than half a 6* free (the rest from mutant island). It feels wrong to see a guy who doesn't even read the abilities of his or the opponent's champions has a 6*. Alright, it is a Bishop, but what if he got lucky?

    I think rewards should not be given to the wrong players, rather than barring them from using. Kabam, not the players, are to blame.
  • Options
    xNigxNig Posts: 7,250 ★★★★★
    Kill_Grey said:

    xNig said:

    Kill_Grey said:

    Is that a rank 3 6* Aarkus? 👀

    Yeah. Mega mind. 😉
    How does your device fare with respect to his animations tho?
    Pretty alright. I’m using an iPhone 8 though.
  • Options
    xNigxNig Posts: 7,250 ★★★★★

    xNig said:


    I believe all these stemmed from newer players being able to bulldoze their way through earlier progressional content from the handouts Kabam gives out. And when they reach a wall that they aren’t able to bulldoze through with higher ranked champs, they cry foul and deem it a moneygrab.

    Since 6.1 beta, I’ve been asking Kabam to gate progressional content (eg Story Acts, followed by recurring content, eg AQ) behind Story Act Exploration. In additional, players shouldn’t be able to use rank up materials haven’t been earned from Story Content (eg no 5* R4s until A4 exploration as that’s where you first earned T2As, which subsequently also means no Map 6, and T2A earned from ranked rewards will be stored in inventory until unlocked).

    I strongly agree. You shouldn't be able to start Act 6 before you fully explored Act 4 (I wish there was a title for it, like Maestro Buster), and you shouldn't be able to start Book 1 unless you're Elder's Bane. Cavalier EQ and legendary difficulty should require level 60 (which you should have if you've explored Act 4).

    The only thing I disagree with @xNig is blocking materials from using. It is greatly unfair to arbitrary and directly block a player's roster based on story exploration. It is typical generation resentment: "I had a tough time with a lot of pain, so should you!" I used two R4 5* to become Uncollected. Maybe that makes me lesser worthy UC'er in his eyes, but I waited longer to become UC (I'm F2P, Unit Man was less of an option) and missed opportunities due that. If you're not as rich, skilled or confident player, I see no problem why you shouldn't be able to use R4 5*.
    The reason I had to suggest that, was because the higher rank up materials are the main reason why people were steamrolling earlier content. 😂

    An early piece of content that’s designed for 4*R5s will lose its meaning when done with 5*R5s.
    @xNig
    Seeing T2a and T5b is not easy to get for conquerors (or downright impossible), we will not see them with 5* R5 yet.

    I don't think the rank-up materials are the issue, but the shards. I'm following a general gamer on YouTube. He started like 6 months ago but he already has a 6* without being UC. I've been playing for 3 years, I became UC in January 2020 but I wasn't even halfway a 6*. This guy got lucky he started before Summoner Appreciation and got more than half a 6* free (the rest from mutant island). It feels wrong to see a guy who doesn't even read the abilities of his or the opponent's champions has a 6*. Alright, it is a Bishop, but what if he got lucky?

    I think rewards should not be given to the wrong players, rather than barring them from using. Kabam, not the players, are to blame.
    If a bunch of Conquerors were to start running Map 6/7 with 4*s, they will have the T2A/T5B required.

    The lower prestige of the alliance will make the map easier, and relatively comparable to what the top alliances are running in terms of difficulty.
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,250 ★★★★★
    What I feel is that, the design philosophy of Story Acts usually goes as follows:

    - New Act is introduced. People who can complete the act complete the act.
    - Act completion rewards + monthly EQ rewards + AQ + AW of the appropriate difficulty improves people’s roster to assist in Exploration of the Story Act.
    - Story Act Exploration rewards pushes players’ roster up a notch to tackle the next Story Act.

    Therefore, if higher tiered rank up materials are made accessible for these players in the Monthly EQ + AQ + AW rewards, they will completely bypass the intended Act’s roster and skill requirements, which IMO is detrimental to the players’ long term growth.

    Another benefit of having Story Act Exploration gate roster progression is that whoever attains a certain Act Exploration Title will have a baseline roster and skill. This prevents players’ from reaching too far out of their comfort zone and become disillusioned with the difficulty. (What I’m suggesting is a title for Act Completion, and another for Act Exploration.)

    Lastly, in terms of monetary benefit for Kabam, deals can be specifically tailored to each title, without the need for inflation. For example, for a player who has freshly explored Act 4 and has just gotten his first 4 T2A from the Act exploration rewards, T2As are very rare for him, as compared to someone who is Cavalier.

    The idea is, if we do not stop the progression acceleration of players, it will spiral out of control with new players, without the necessary skill honed from experience (that only comes from content clearing), getting disillusioned because they keep hitting a brick wall after a brick wall.
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