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Combat Mechanics: There's No Such Thing as Defensive Ability Accuracy

2

Comments

  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,558 Guardian

    “ Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit”

    Or maybe this is backwards and why I find it contradictory to observations, tests and experience.

    If DAAR is only when being hit then it wouldn’t prevent evade. (I believe this is what was responsible for BW and gwenpool suddenly losing that ability back in the day) But if this is first frame it explains why DAAR can prevent evade.

    If OAAR is first frame that doesn’t explain why the effect can carry over into a special 3 when the attack lands. But if it is when the attack lands then hitting a special 3 in that frame allows the effect to carry over.

    Evade may be a case of having to consider carefully the order of operations of the computer. The software doesn't calculate what's happening now, it technically calculates what is about to happen in the next frame, so it can then display it to you. I'm guessing that at time T the game calculates that frame T+1 is going to be a hit frame when it does its collision calculations, and based on that flag it performs all of its other calculations knowing that the next frame has been calculated to be a hit. That means all ability accuracy calculations include defensive ability modifications. It does that first, before it calculates which effects will trigger at time T+1 (it seems reasonable the game would calculate ability accuracy first, before calculating the result of the effects, since it would need to know which effects trigger and at what probability). This includes whether the Evade state will trigger in that frame. Without DAAR it would have, and the game would calculate T+1 as if an evade occurred, but with DAAR the game calculates T+1 as if evade had not occurred.

    I don't know about the SP3 case: are you saying you can trigger a basic attack, wait for it to land, and then trigger SP3 and the SP3 appears to be affected by ability accuracy modifications? Do you have a specific example in mind?
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    “ Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit”

    Or maybe this is backwards and why I find it contradictory to observations, tests and experience.

    If DAAR is only when being hit then it wouldn’t prevent evade. (I believe this is what was responsible for BW and gwenpool suddenly losing that ability back in the day) But if this is first frame it explains why DAAR can prevent evade.

    If OAAR is first frame that doesn’t explain why the effect can carry over into a special 3 when the attack lands. But if it is when the attack lands then hitting a special 3 in that frame allows the effect to carry over.

    Evade may be a case of having to consider carefully the order of operations of the computer. The software doesn't calculate what's happening now, it technically calculates what is about to happen in the next frame, so it can then display it to you. I'm guessing that at time T the game calculates that frame T+1 is going to be a hit frame when it does its collision calculations, and based on that flag it performs all of its other calculations knowing that the next frame has been calculated to be a hit. That means all ability accuracy calculations include defensive ability modifications. It does that first, before it calculates which effects will trigger at time T+1 (it seems reasonable the game would calculate ability accuracy first, before calculating the result of the effects, since it would need to know which effects trigger and at what probability). This includes whether the Evade state will trigger in that frame. Without DAAR it would have, and the game would calculate T+1 as if an evade occurred, but with DAAR the game calculates T+1 as if evade had not occurred.

    I don't know about the SP3 case: are you saying you can trigger a basic attack, wait for it to land, and then trigger SP3 and the SP3 appears to be affected by ability accuracy modifications? Do you have a specific example in mind?
    Yes, a special 3 is subject to oaar only when chained from a basic attack that was negated by ooar. Same thing happens with storm x who only glances basic attacks but a glanced basic attack can prevent a special ability that occurs on activation (when chained) ( like juggs previously).

    But back to ooar/daar activation timings. Sentinel gains charges when you use the same action two times in a row. Daar does not prevent this but AAR does. Maybe that’s where to look since I cannot remember how that interacts with proxima while blocking.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,558 Guardian
    YoMoves said:

    Okay, so there is still something I'm lost for.

    What about abilities that proc neither on hit or when hit?

    Passive ability accuracy, I guess?

    I guess this also ties into Concussion. Is Concussion simply just always active, since it prevents these passive abilities from activating as well?

    What about Colossus? Colossus' abilities state that he is only supposed to have 100% boosted power gain when ALL of his ability accuracies are below 100%. Why, then, when he is in Assassin range, does he always have that boosted power gain when Assassin is supposed to only lower defensive ability accuracy? Is it because that's not a debuff, but a passive hanging over the fight that isn't listed as an effect?

    To be clear, assuming this explanation is correct, all abilities have just plain old ability accuracy. Nothing has offensive ability accuracy, nothing has defensive ability accuracy. All abilities (that have ability accuracy at all) have just ability accuracy. This is regardless of how they proc.

    What does care about circumstances are ability accuracy modifiers. It is the modifiers that care about whether someone is attacking now or getting hit now. Falcon's Lock On is stated to reduce defensive ability accuracy. That does not mean it lowers the ability accuracy of all defensive abilities, because there is no such thing. Instead, it lowers the ability accuracy of *all* abilities, but only when the affected target is getting hit.

    So what's going on with Colossus? His abilities state that when he is attacked or when he is attacking, if *all* of his abilities have less than 100% ability accuracy he has increased power gain. Why does it say that? What is the intent? Well, there are some special effects out there that only change the ability accuracy of specific abilities. For example, slow debuff reduce the ability accuracy of only unstoppable and evade effects. If Colossus was under the effects of a slow debuff, it would not be true that all of his abilities had less than 100% ability accuracy. He would not gain more power while under the effects of a slow debuff.

    However, if Colossus was under the effects of an always active ability accuracy reduction (say, Domino), or if he was under the effects of a Defensive Ability Accuracy reduction and was getting hit at that moment, or if he was under the effects of an Offensive Ability Accuracy reduction and was attacking, in all three of these cases the ability accuracy of all of his abilities would be reduced, and he would get the benefit of the increased power gain.

    In fact, it now occurs to me that Colossus should have been a big hint as to how ability accuracy modifications work. Colossus can only get that increased power rate if *all* of his abilities has lower ability accuracy reduction. That would only work if all offensive and defensive ability accuracy modifiers were actually reducing everything, and not just the abilities we normally consider to be "offensive" and "defensive."
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,558 Guardian

    DNA3000 said:

    “ Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit”

    Or maybe this is backwards and why I find it contradictory to observations, tests and experience.

    If DAAR is only when being hit then it wouldn’t prevent evade. (I believe this is what was responsible for BW and gwenpool suddenly losing that ability back in the day) But if this is first frame it explains why DAAR can prevent evade.

    If OAAR is first frame that doesn’t explain why the effect can carry over into a special 3 when the attack lands. But if it is when the attack lands then hitting a special 3 in that frame allows the effect to carry over.

    Evade may be a case of having to consider carefully the order of operations of the computer. The software doesn't calculate what's happening now, it technically calculates what is about to happen in the next frame, so it can then display it to you. I'm guessing that at time T the game calculates that frame T+1 is going to be a hit frame when it does its collision calculations, and based on that flag it performs all of its other calculations knowing that the next frame has been calculated to be a hit. That means all ability accuracy calculations include defensive ability modifications. It does that first, before it calculates which effects will trigger at time T+1 (it seems reasonable the game would calculate ability accuracy first, before calculating the result of the effects, since it would need to know which effects trigger and at what probability). This includes whether the Evade state will trigger in that frame. Without DAAR it would have, and the game would calculate T+1 as if an evade occurred, but with DAAR the game calculates T+1 as if evade had not occurred.

    I don't know about the SP3 case: are you saying you can trigger a basic attack, wait for it to land, and then trigger SP3 and the SP3 appears to be affected by ability accuracy modifications? Do you have a specific example in mind?
    Yes, a special 3 is subject to oaar only when chained from a basic attack that was negated by ooar. Same thing happens with storm x who only glances basic attacks but a glanced basic attack can prevent a special ability that occurs on activation (when chained) ( like juggs previously).

    But back to ooar/daar activation timings. Sentinel gains charges when you use the same action two times in a row. Daar does not prevent this but AAR does. Maybe that’s where to look since I cannot remember how that interacts with proxima while blocking.
    In the case of Juggernaut specifically, tell me if this contradicts what you're seeing. This is what I think is happening frame by frame in the case where unstoppable does not fire.

    Juggernaut initiates a basic attack. At this moment in time, Juggernaut is *not* under the effects of OAAR, because CW's OAAR only triggers when he is hit. At this moment he is not hit, so he is not reducing Juggernaut's AA.

    A few frames later Juggernaut's basic attack strikes CW. At this moment, CW is hit, and his OAAR triggers. Juggernaut is now affected by -135% AAR.

    At this same moment in time, the exact same frame, you trigger Juggernaut's SP1. Juggernaut is under the effects of -135% AAR, so any effects with ability accuracy will now fail. Unstoppable is one such effect, and fails to fire due to the OAAR.

    One frame later OAAR disappears because CW is no longer being hit. But that no longer matters, as the unstoppable associated with SP1 has already been prevented.

    All of this is consistent with OAAR affecting the first frame of the attack, assuming the timing lines up. It would be affecting the first frame of SP1 because the first frame of SP1 occurs within the same frame that the basic attack lands on CW. What's significant is not which frame in the basic attack the effect occurs, what's important is that it is only the hit frames on CW that cause him to modify ability accuracy at all. The moment of impact is the only moment CW debuffs ability accuracy, so only at that moment will any attack triggered fail to trigger its own secondary effects.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    “ Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit”

    Or maybe this is backwards and why I find it contradictory to observations, tests and experience.

    If DAAR is only when being hit then it wouldn’t prevent evade. (I believe this is what was responsible for BW and gwenpool suddenly losing that ability back in the day) But if this is first frame it explains why DAAR can prevent evade.

    If OAAR is first frame that doesn’t explain why the effect can carry over into a special 3 when the attack lands. But if it is when the attack lands then hitting a special 3 in that frame allows the effect to carry over.

    Evade may be a case of having to consider carefully the order of operations of the computer. The software doesn't calculate what's happening now, it technically calculates what is about to happen in the next frame, so it can then display it to you. I'm guessing that at time T the game calculates that frame T+1 is going to be a hit frame when it does its collision calculations, and based on that flag it performs all of its other calculations knowing that the next frame has been calculated to be a hit. That means all ability accuracy calculations include defensive ability modifications. It does that first, before it calculates which effects will trigger at time T+1 (it seems reasonable the game would calculate ability accuracy first, before calculating the result of the effects, since it would need to know which effects trigger and at what probability). This includes whether the Evade state will trigger in that frame. Without DAAR it would have, and the game would calculate T+1 as if an evade occurred, but with DAAR the game calculates T+1 as if evade had not occurred.

    I don't know about the SP3 case: are you saying you can trigger a basic attack, wait for it to land, and then trigger SP3 and the SP3 appears to be affected by ability accuracy modifications? Do you have a specific example in mind?
    Yes, a special 3 is subject to oaar only when chained from a basic attack that was negated by ooar. Same thing happens with storm x who only glances basic attacks but a glanced basic attack can prevent a special ability that occurs on activation (when chained) ( like juggs previously).

    But back to ooar/daar activation timings. Sentinel gains charges when you use the same action two times in a row. Daar does not prevent this but AAR does. Maybe that’s where to look since I cannot remember how that interacts with proxima while blocking.
    In the case of Juggernaut specifically, tell me if this contradicts what you're seeing. This is what I think is happening frame by frame in the case where unstoppable does not fire.

    Juggernaut initiates a basic attack. At this moment in time, Juggernaut is *not* under the effects of OAAR, because CW's OAAR only triggers when he is hit. At this moment he is not hit, so he is not reducing Juggernaut's AA.

    A few frames later Juggernaut's basic attack strikes CW. At this moment, CW is hit, and his OAAR triggers. Juggernaut is now affected by -135% AAR.

    At this same moment in time, the exact same frame, you trigger Juggernaut's SP1. Juggernaut is under the effects of -135% AAR, so any effects with ability accuracy will now fail. Unstoppable is one such effect, and fails to fire due to the OAAR.

    One frame later OAAR disappears because CW is no longer being hit. But that no longer matters, as the unstoppable associated with SP1 has already been prevented.

    All of this is consistent with OAAR affecting the first frame of the attack, assuming the timing lines up. It would be affecting the first frame of SP1 because the first frame of SP1 occurs within the same frame that the basic attack lands on CW. What's significant is not which frame in the basic attack the effect occurs, what's important is that it is only the hit frames on CW that cause him to modify ability accuracy at all. The moment of impact is the only moment CW debuffs ability accuracy, so only at that moment will any attack triggered fail to trigger its own secondary effects.
    I follow you and that makes sense, for civil warrior but that was just the most immediate example I had which could be easily reviewed.

    A lot of this comes from the abyss of legends https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/180672/abyss-of-legends-100-offensive-ability-accuracy-of-skill-champions and the small skill champion fights where “the attacker has -100% offensive ability accuracy except during special attacks.” In the abyss if you chain a special from a successful basic attack the oaar carries into the special attack.

    More from “only Glancing basic hits” carrying over, but that’s closer to what you proposed is happening with CW. https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/229705/storm-x-glancing-specials
  • Will3808Will3808 Posts: 3,536 ★★★★★
    This is the stuff that I am hoping to see when I jump on the forums in my free time. I wish I could give you an insightful, like, and awesome. Thanks for this amazing write up and explanation, I would have never guessed that.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,558 Guardian

    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    “ Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit”

    Or maybe this is backwards and why I find it contradictory to observations, tests and experience.

    If DAAR is only when being hit then it wouldn’t prevent evade. (I believe this is what was responsible for BW and gwenpool suddenly losing that ability back in the day) But if this is first frame it explains why DAAR can prevent evade.

    If OAAR is first frame that doesn’t explain why the effect can carry over into a special 3 when the attack lands. But if it is when the attack lands then hitting a special 3 in that frame allows the effect to carry over.

    Evade may be a case of having to consider carefully the order of operations of the computer. The software doesn't calculate what's happening now, it technically calculates what is about to happen in the next frame, so it can then display it to you. I'm guessing that at time T the game calculates that frame T+1 is going to be a hit frame when it does its collision calculations, and based on that flag it performs all of its other calculations knowing that the next frame has been calculated to be a hit. That means all ability accuracy calculations include defensive ability modifications. It does that first, before it calculates which effects will trigger at time T+1 (it seems reasonable the game would calculate ability accuracy first, before calculating the result of the effects, since it would need to know which effects trigger and at what probability). This includes whether the Evade state will trigger in that frame. Without DAAR it would have, and the game would calculate T+1 as if an evade occurred, but with DAAR the game calculates T+1 as if evade had not occurred.

    I don't know about the SP3 case: are you saying you can trigger a basic attack, wait for it to land, and then trigger SP3 and the SP3 appears to be affected by ability accuracy modifications? Do you have a specific example in mind?
    Yes, a special 3 is subject to oaar only when chained from a basic attack that was negated by ooar. Same thing happens with storm x who only glances basic attacks but a glanced basic attack can prevent a special ability that occurs on activation (when chained) ( like juggs previously).

    But back to ooar/daar activation timings. Sentinel gains charges when you use the same action two times in a row. Daar does not prevent this but AAR does. Maybe that’s where to look since I cannot remember how that interacts with proxima while blocking.
    In the case of Juggernaut specifically, tell me if this contradicts what you're seeing. This is what I think is happening frame by frame in the case where unstoppable does not fire.

    Juggernaut initiates a basic attack. At this moment in time, Juggernaut is *not* under the effects of OAAR, because CW's OAAR only triggers when he is hit. At this moment he is not hit, so he is not reducing Juggernaut's AA.

    A few frames later Juggernaut's basic attack strikes CW. At this moment, CW is hit, and his OAAR triggers. Juggernaut is now affected by -135% AAR.

    At this same moment in time, the exact same frame, you trigger Juggernaut's SP1. Juggernaut is under the effects of -135% AAR, so any effects with ability accuracy will now fail. Unstoppable is one such effect, and fails to fire due to the OAAR.

    One frame later OAAR disappears because CW is no longer being hit. But that no longer matters, as the unstoppable associated with SP1 has already been prevented.

    All of this is consistent with OAAR affecting the first frame of the attack, assuming the timing lines up. It would be affecting the first frame of SP1 because the first frame of SP1 occurs within the same frame that the basic attack lands on CW. What's significant is not which frame in the basic attack the effect occurs, what's important is that it is only the hit frames on CW that cause him to modify ability accuracy at all. The moment of impact is the only moment CW debuffs ability accuracy, so only at that moment will any attack triggered fail to trigger its own secondary effects.
    I follow you and that makes sense, for civil warrior but that was just the most immediate example I had which could be easily reviewed.

    A lot of this comes from the abyss of legends https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/180672/abyss-of-legends-100-offensive-ability-accuracy-of-skill-champions and the small skill champion fights where “the attacker has -100% offensive ability accuracy except during special attacks.” In the abyss if you chain a special from a successful basic attack the oaar carries into the special attack.
    I can speculate this might be an implementation oddity due to fenceposts. Suppose you initiate a basic attack, and on the last frame of the basic attack you initiate a special attack. Should OAAR modifiers apply on that frame? It is happening during a basic attack, so maybe the Abyss OAAR modifier should still apply. But it is also happening at the start of a special attack, so maybe it should not apply. Maybe the code resolves this in a way that causes the OAAR to linger, whereas using a special far away from basic attack frames causes the code to decide that frame is "inside" a special and suppress OAAR modifiers.

    Although this brings up a tangential question, which I think deserves another clarifying discussion.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    “ Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit”

    Or maybe this is backwards and why I find it contradictory to observations, tests and experience.

    If DAAR is only when being hit then it wouldn’t prevent evade. (I believe this is what was responsible for BW and gwenpool suddenly losing that ability back in the day) But if this is first frame it explains why DAAR can prevent evade.

    If OAAR is first frame that doesn’t explain why the effect can carry over into a special 3 when the attack lands. But if it is when the attack lands then hitting a special 3 in that frame allows the effect to carry over.

    Evade may be a case of having to consider carefully the order of operations of the computer. The software doesn't calculate what's happening now, it technically calculates what is about to happen in the next frame, so it can then display it to you. I'm guessing that at time T the game calculates that frame T+1 is going to be a hit frame when it does its collision calculations, and based on that flag it performs all of its other calculations knowing that the next frame has been calculated to be a hit. That means all ability accuracy calculations include defensive ability modifications. It does that first, before it calculates which effects will trigger at time T+1 (it seems reasonable the game would calculate ability accuracy first, before calculating the result of the effects, since it would need to know which effects trigger and at what probability). This includes whether the Evade state will trigger in that frame. Without DAAR it would have, and the game would calculate T+1 as if an evade occurred, but with DAAR the game calculates T+1 as if evade had not occurred.

    I don't know about the SP3 case: are you saying you can trigger a basic attack, wait for it to land, and then trigger SP3 and the SP3 appears to be affected by ability accuracy modifications? Do you have a specific example in mind?
    Yes, a special 3 is subject to oaar only when chained from a basic attack that was negated by ooar. Same thing happens with storm x who only glances basic attacks but a glanced basic attack can prevent a special ability that occurs on activation (when chained) ( like juggs previously).

    But back to ooar/daar activation timings. Sentinel gains charges when you use the same action two times in a row. Daar does not prevent this but AAR does. Maybe that’s where to look since I cannot remember how that interacts with proxima while blocking.
    In the case of Juggernaut specifically, tell me if this contradicts what you're seeing. This is what I think is happening frame by frame in the case where unstoppable does not fire.

    Juggernaut initiates a basic attack. At this moment in time, Juggernaut is *not* under the effects of OAAR, because CW's OAAR only triggers when he is hit. At this moment he is not hit, so he is not reducing Juggernaut's AA.

    A few frames later Juggernaut's basic attack strikes CW. At this moment, CW is hit, and his OAAR triggers. Juggernaut is now affected by -135% AAR.

    At this same moment in time, the exact same frame, you trigger Juggernaut's SP1. Juggernaut is under the effects of -135% AAR, so any effects with ability accuracy will now fail. Unstoppable is one such effect, and fails to fire due to the OAAR.

    One frame later OAAR disappears because CW is no longer being hit. But that no longer matters, as the unstoppable associated with SP1 has already been prevented.

    All of this is consistent with OAAR affecting the first frame of the attack, assuming the timing lines up. It would be affecting the first frame of SP1 because the first frame of SP1 occurs within the same frame that the basic attack lands on CW. What's significant is not which frame in the basic attack the effect occurs, what's important is that it is only the hit frames on CW that cause him to modify ability accuracy at all. The moment of impact is the only moment CW debuffs ability accuracy, so only at that moment will any attack triggered fail to trigger its own secondary effects.
    I follow you and that makes sense, for civil warrior but that was just the most immediate example I had which could be easily reviewed.

    A lot of this comes from the abyss of legends https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/180672/abyss-of-legends-100-offensive-ability-accuracy-of-skill-champions and the small skill champion fights where “the attacker has -100% offensive ability accuracy except during special attacks.” In the abyss if you chain a special from a successful basic attack the oaar carries into the special attack.
    I can speculate this might be an implementation oddity due to fenceposts. Suppose you initiate a basic attack, and on the last frame of the basic attack you initiate a special attack. Should OAAR modifiers apply on that frame? It is happening during a basic attack, so maybe the Abyss OAAR modifier should still apply. But it is also happening at the start of a special attack, so maybe it should not apply. Maybe the code resolves this in a way that causes the OAAR to linger, whereas using a special far away from basic attack frames causes the code to decide that frame is "inside" a special and suppress OAAR modifiers.

    Although this brings up a tangential question, which I think deserves another clarifying discussion.
    I think that contradicts “only on the first frame of an attack” used to describe OAAR. Also special 3s don’t count as an attack from everything thing I’ve seen so maybe there is something there.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,558 Guardian

    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    “ Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit”

    Or maybe this is backwards and why I find it contradictory to observations, tests and experience.

    If DAAR is only when being hit then it wouldn’t prevent evade. (I believe this is what was responsible for BW and gwenpool suddenly losing that ability back in the day) But if this is first frame it explains why DAAR can prevent evade.

    If OAAR is first frame that doesn’t explain why the effect can carry over into a special 3 when the attack lands. But if it is when the attack lands then hitting a special 3 in that frame allows the effect to carry over.

    Evade may be a case of having to consider carefully the order of operations of the computer. The software doesn't calculate what's happening now, it technically calculates what is about to happen in the next frame, so it can then display it to you. I'm guessing that at time T the game calculates that frame T+1 is going to be a hit frame when it does its collision calculations, and based on that flag it performs all of its other calculations knowing that the next frame has been calculated to be a hit. That means all ability accuracy calculations include defensive ability modifications. It does that first, before it calculates which effects will trigger at time T+1 (it seems reasonable the game would calculate ability accuracy first, before calculating the result of the effects, since it would need to know which effects trigger and at what probability). This includes whether the Evade state will trigger in that frame. Without DAAR it would have, and the game would calculate T+1 as if an evade occurred, but with DAAR the game calculates T+1 as if evade had not occurred.

    I don't know about the SP3 case: are you saying you can trigger a basic attack, wait for it to land, and then trigger SP3 and the SP3 appears to be affected by ability accuracy modifications? Do you have a specific example in mind?
    Yes, a special 3 is subject to oaar only when chained from a basic attack that was negated by ooar. Same thing happens with storm x who only glances basic attacks but a glanced basic attack can prevent a special ability that occurs on activation (when chained) ( like juggs previously).

    But back to ooar/daar activation timings. Sentinel gains charges when you use the same action two times in a row. Daar does not prevent this but AAR does. Maybe that’s where to look since I cannot remember how that interacts with proxima while blocking.
    In the case of Juggernaut specifically, tell me if this contradicts what you're seeing. This is what I think is happening frame by frame in the case where unstoppable does not fire.

    Juggernaut initiates a basic attack. At this moment in time, Juggernaut is *not* under the effects of OAAR, because CW's OAAR only triggers when he is hit. At this moment he is not hit, so he is not reducing Juggernaut's AA.

    A few frames later Juggernaut's basic attack strikes CW. At this moment, CW is hit, and his OAAR triggers. Juggernaut is now affected by -135% AAR.

    At this same moment in time, the exact same frame, you trigger Juggernaut's SP1. Juggernaut is under the effects of -135% AAR, so any effects with ability accuracy will now fail. Unstoppable is one such effect, and fails to fire due to the OAAR.

    One frame later OAAR disappears because CW is no longer being hit. But that no longer matters, as the unstoppable associated with SP1 has already been prevented.

    All of this is consistent with OAAR affecting the first frame of the attack, assuming the timing lines up. It would be affecting the first frame of SP1 because the first frame of SP1 occurs within the same frame that the basic attack lands on CW. What's significant is not which frame in the basic attack the effect occurs, what's important is that it is only the hit frames on CW that cause him to modify ability accuracy at all. The moment of impact is the only moment CW debuffs ability accuracy, so only at that moment will any attack triggered fail to trigger its own secondary effects.
    I follow you and that makes sense, for civil warrior but that was just the most immediate example I had which could be easily reviewed.

    A lot of this comes from the abyss of legends https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/180672/abyss-of-legends-100-offensive-ability-accuracy-of-skill-champions and the small skill champion fights where “the attacker has -100% offensive ability accuracy except during special attacks.” In the abyss if you chain a special from a successful basic attack the oaar carries into the special attack.
    I can speculate this might be an implementation oddity due to fenceposts. Suppose you initiate a basic attack, and on the last frame of the basic attack you initiate a special attack. Should OAAR modifiers apply on that frame? It is happening during a basic attack, so maybe the Abyss OAAR modifier should still apply. But it is also happening at the start of a special attack, so maybe it should not apply. Maybe the code resolves this in a way that causes the OAAR to linger, whereas using a special far away from basic attack frames causes the code to decide that frame is "inside" a special and suppress OAAR modifiers.

    Although this brings up a tangential question, which I think deserves another clarifying discussion.
    I think that contradicts “only on the first frame of an attack” used to describe OAAR. Also special 3s don’t count as an attack from everything thing I’ve seen so maybe there is something there.
    I was thinking about special attacks in general. I always presume SP3 attacks are special cases all around. The highlighted part was asking the question of what happens if a single game frame contains both the last frame of a basic attack and the first frame of a special attack, when in the Abyss where an effect claims in English to only affect the frames within a special attack, but where we don't know how that was implemented in actual fact.
  • ShtickRickShtickRick Posts: 210
    I know this isn't entirely related, but could someone explain to me why Ant-Man seems to be able to ignore Falcon's Lock on? In every encounter I've had against Ant-Man while using Falcon he still seems to glance my attacks with Lock on active as frequently as with it deactivated.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    “Only on the first frame” is really getting me. In most instances outside of Warlock and the abyss OOAR is described similar to how CWs OAAR worked, OAAR is dependent on an action like blocking or being attacked and in the case of Warlock I wasn’t able to prove that Doom was subject to Warlock’s OAAR except specifically while hitting warlock; doom always triggered his special attack abilities except when they were chained from a basic attack that made contact, but then again Warlock was a mess upon release and reducing abilities outside of offensive ones.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,558 Guardian

    “Only on the first frame” is really getting me.

    Actually, I'm beginning to believe there was a miscommunication there as well, but I'm trying to get that resolved. It was described to me in two ways that seemed semantically identical at first glance, but I now believe something was lost in translation. But its Friday, so I might not get an answer until Monday.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,558 Guardian

    I know this isn't entirely related, but could someone explain to me why Ant-Man seems to be able to ignore Falcon's Lock on? In every encounter I've had against Ant-Man while using Falcon he still seems to glance my attacks with Lock on active as frequently as with it deactivated.

    Short answer: the glance effect takes place before the lock on effect. Glance wants to turn off Lock On and Lock On wants to turn off Glance. Glance wins the quick draw and turns off Lock On first, so Lock On cannot then turn off Glance.

    More specifically: Lock On doesn't do DAAR directly. Lock On causes Falcon's hits to deal DAAR. So when Lock On is active, it is as if Falcon's attacks have an additional effect that is triggered on hit. This new effect is basically an offensive ability trigger.

    So when Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks have an offensive effect that when triggered causes the opponent to have reduced defensive ability accuracy (I'm using the colloquial terms even though as previously discussed these things aren't "real"). To trigger this effect, Falcon's offensive ability accuracy must be greater than zero. But Glancing reduces offensive ability accuracy by 100%. Glanced attacks cannot trigger their offensive effects. So Glanced attacks cannot reduce the ability accuracy of the Glancing ability. The game must break this chicken and egg circular reference by processing either Glance first or Falcon's offensive effects first. It processes Glance first, which means the attack is determined to Glance, which means it cannot trigger its DAAR, which means there's no DAAR to interfere with Glance.
  • shadow_lurker22shadow_lurker22 Posts: 3,243 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    TL;DR: Offensive and Defensive ability accuracy debuffs do the same thing: they debuff ability accuracy. The difference between them is not what they affect, but *when* they take effect.


    Every so often I wander around the Reddit, and every so often I reply to a post. Generally it is a technical question of some kind, and usually I get the answer right. However recently I saw a question about ability accuracy, and without thinking about it much I just parroted my basic understanding of how ability accuracy works. However, in this case I was wrong, not just in the details but also in a fundamental way that caused me to investigate further, and decide to try to settle the matter once and for all. To do that, I first did somet testing and then I decided to present a version of the question to the developers, and two Kabam designers (Kabam Niv and Kabam Broccoli) were willing to explain how this works exactly (and I have permission to source them for this post here).

    I should point out that there are a lot of different ideas about how ability accuracy works, and it is possible there are a lot of players who have this completely correct, but their ideas just haven't been widely disseminated. For example, Redditor u/EmmaStore got this basically exactly right in the Reddit thread in question. Her description fits the facts, and it matches the description given to me by Kabam.

    So to set the stage, here's the wrong version of ability accuracy that I believed, and I think many players believe some version of. Ability accuracy is the chance for an effect to trigger, Defensive abilities are those that are triggered when you're hit. Offensive abilities are triggered when you attack. Defensive ability accuracy reduction affects defensive abilities, and offensive ability accuracy reduction affects offensive abilities.

    The problem with this description is that it doesn't fit all in-game observations. For example, in the thread I mention above, the discussion revolved around Magik's Limbo, specifically the Limbo she triggers when she gains a bar of power. Is that a defensive ability or an offensive ability? Or neither? Turns out, it depends. If you hit her and drive her to a bar of power, defensive ability accuracy reduction (say, from Falcon's Lock On) can prevent Limbo. So that sounds like this is a defensive ability. However, if she is hitting you and gains a bar of power, Lock On won't prevent Limbo. If it is a defensive ability, why doesn't Lock On work here?

    One theory is that the game treats power gain from being hit as a defensive act, and thus the trigger of Limbo also a defensive act. But that seems to lead to potentially weird complications. If a defensive ability triggers another ability which triggers another ability, are they all defensive abilities? How far does that go?

    As it turns out, according to Kabam Broccoli and Kabam Niv, the game doesn't care what triggered the ability at all. There is no such thing really as an offensive ability and no such thing really as a defensive ability (except colloquially). And thus there's no such thing as offensive ability accuracy or defensive ability accuracy. There's only "ability accuracy" and all abilities have it. Instead, it is the *debuffs only* that are offensive or defensive.

    Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit


    [Note: this presumably works for both buffs and debuffs, but I'm going to refer to debuffs in the rest of the post for simplicity]

    In other words Limbo is an ability with ability accuracy. When Falcon applies Lock On, he is applying an ability accuracy debuff. Because it is a defensive ability accuracy debuff, it "flickers off and on" depending on whether Magik is being struck at that instant or not. "Frame" in the above description refers to the fact that the game divides time into individual segments which generally also correspond to animation frames. The first frame of an attack is the first segment of time when the attack is triggered. The frames where the target is being hit generally correspond to when the target is visually being struck by a component of the attack. Attacks with multiple hits can have multiple frames that trigger defensive abililty accuracy reduction.

    Again, it seems there are players that have either guessed or deduced this behavior, but this isn't obvious from observation. There are multiple ways to explain why ability accuracy works in the way most people have observed. This happens to be the correct one; kudos to anyone who figured this out. I'm posting this mainly because this differed from how I assumed it worked, and this explanation did not seem to be widely held by most players.

    This means that offensive and defensive ability accuracy reduction work, in a sense, by coincidence. Since most abilities Kabam wants to work "defensively" are triggered upon being hit, they will trigger at the exact moment of a hit and thus be affected by defensive ability accuracy reduction. However, anything else that triggers at the same time will also be affected by DAAR, even if it is something we don't normally consider to be a defensive ability. In fact, if you hit something at the exact moment they initiate an attack (this requires special circumstances if it is possible at all, like the target is unstoppable say) any ability that they would normally trigger as an offensive ability would be suppressed by any defensive ability accuracy debuff that was present.

    So we can now put ability accuracy to bed, in terms of how it works. Some players got there on their own, the rest of us now have an official statement on ability accuracy. There's no such thing as offensive ability accuracy or defensive ability accuracy. There's just ability accuracy. Defensive ability accuracy debuffs do not debuff defensive ability accuracy, there's no such thing. Instead, defensive ability accuracy debuffs reduce *all* ability accuracy at the moment the target is hit. Offensive ability accuracy debuffs reduce *all* ability accuracy at the moment the champion initiates an attack.

    This does not, however, end this story. Because offensive and defensive ability accuracy reduction are *timing* based effects, then as I said in a sense they work by coincidence. Things just happen to take place at the right time for the effects to produce the changes we expect and the developers intend. But does everything happen exactly when it is supposed to happen, and can things happen coincidentally when they are not intended to happen in a way that causes issues? Probably yes. When players are observing oddities in the game and they think ability accuracy is not working the way they think it should, there's now a new question to ask: did something happen, or not happen, in the split second it was supposed to happen for ability accuracy modifiers to take effect when they were supposed to?

    And I'm curious to know if anyone has seen something in game that contradicts this explanation. As it comes directly from game designers, the description is probably accurate, but the game itself is a complex thing. There could be bugs, there could be weird unexpected interactions, there could be additional implementation details that cause the game to behave differently than the designers expect it to. If anyone has evidence of a situation that doesn't seem to follow this explanation, please let me know.

    Thanks to Kabam Broccoli and Kabam Niv for taking time to explain this to me, and in turn allowing me to write up the explanation for everyone else. And thanks to u/EmmaStore for being basically right, and setting me on the right path to discovering how this actually works.

    Can I submit this as my college essay?
  • PolygonPolygon Posts: 3,800 ★★★★★
    Aar is the weirdest thing in this game, mags/AA works on some nodes but not others. For instance, only one of them prevents static blast , but not the other
  • The_beast123The_beast123 Posts: 2,038 ★★★★
    Thank you @DNA3000 , that really was a needed clarification.
  • Colonaut123Colonaut123 Posts: 3,091 ★★★★★
    edited June 2021
    Intuitively, I figured this out. If I time it right, Lock On can prevent Aarkus from applying Armor Break. However, if the timer is between hits, the Armor Break does get applied.

    It does seem there has to be contact. Even if I dash forward while having an Armor Break, the Coldsnap is still applied. The window of DAAR is only right before or when making contact, seeming to linger after so abilities that trigger after making contact are disabled as well.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    BTW what’s up with the title of this thread? “There is no such thing as defensive ability accuracy”

    Shouldn't it be something like are are no such things as Defensive Abilities? Because well for there being no such thing that specific language sure is common within the game, so much so that when I went to point it out with in game references I realized how time consuming that would be.

    More and more I’m wondering how rushed this was after a personal revelation.
  • CorkscrewCorkscrew Posts: 531 ★★★
    I've come to think of them simplistically as:
    1) offensive ability being an effect that triggers while in the act of attacking
    2) defensive ability being an effect that triggers while in the act of defending, which includes being hit.
    Taken from the perspective of the champ whom is the source of the ability (not the player perspective, which is how many people articulate it).

    OAAR and DAAR are quite obviously respective reductions to those abilities.

    No ability is strictly one or the other, it is based upon what lead to it triggering.
    The often cited Magik limbo.
    1) Defensive when triggered by her exceeding a bar of power from being hit
    2) Offensive when triggered because her attacks pushed her over a bar.

    There are some abilities that do not fall into either category because they occur irrespective of what the source champ is doing at the time, so DAAR and OAAR aren't applicable, however AAR would be (unless something is immune). As far as I can tell abilities like Void placing a debuff, Dormammu's degen triggering.

    Dorm's degen is interesting in that many would classify it as a defensive ability. He needs it to be a better defender, but the ability causes damage... so then isn't it offensive? Well no, because it triggers at buff expiration, so Dorm isn't necessarily attacking or defending.

    Note also that AAR doesn't just cancel out effects detrimental to the player, it can prevent beneficial effects. For example, heal or hide. As far as I can recall, even if the heal will occur on you rather than the defender, AAR can prevent it from happening. Why? Because even if the heal is on you, the source is the defender.

    As for what constitutes in the act of attacking or the act of defending... I believe it is animation related and not on hit detection. Hence why some things trigger on charging a heavy or at the beginning of an animation before a hit occurs.

  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,254 ★★★★★
    Corkscrew said:

    I've come to think of them simplistically as:
    1) offensive ability being an effect that triggers while in the act of attacking
    2) defensive ability being an effect that triggers while in the act of defending, which includes being hit.
    Taken from the perspective of the champ whom is the source of the ability (not the player perspective, which is how many people articulate it).

    OAAR and DAAR are quite obviously respective reductions to those abilities.

    No ability is strictly one or the other, it is based upon what lead to it triggering.
    The often cited Magik limbo.
    1) Defensive when triggered by her exceeding a bar of power from being hit
    2) Offensive when triggered because her attacks pushed her over a bar.

    There are some abilities that do not fall into either category because they occur irrespective of what the source champ is doing at the time, so DAAR and OAAR aren't applicable, however AAR would be (unless something is immune). As far as I can tell abilities like Void placing a debuff, Dormammu's degen triggering.

    Dorm's degen is interesting in that many would classify it as a defensive ability. He needs it to be a better defender, but the ability causes damage... so then isn't it offensive? Well no, because it triggers at buff expiration, so Dorm isn't necessarily attacking or defending.

    Note also that AAR doesn't just cancel out effects detrimental to the player, it can prevent beneficial effects. For example, heal or hide. As far as I can recall, even if the heal will occur on you rather than the defender, AAR can prevent it from happening. Why? Because even if the heal is on you, the source is the defender.

    As for what constitutes in the act of attacking or the act of defending... I believe it is animation related and not on hit detection. Hence why some things trigger on charging a heavy or at the beginning of an animation before a hit occurs.

    Magik is actually an example of all three types of ability. As she can proc limbo through a buff expiring, meaning neither offensive or defensive.
  • CorkscrewCorkscrew Posts: 531 ★★★


    Magik is actually an example of all three types of ability. As she can proc limbo through a buff expiring, meaning neither offensive or defensive.

    I'm assuming you mean in the case of MD, which would be a very similar case to Dorm's degen.

  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,558 Guardian

    “Only on the first frame” is really getting me. In most instances outside of Warlock and the abyss OOAR is described similar to how CWs OAAR worked, OAAR is dependent on an action like blocking or being attacked and in the case of Warlock I wasn’t able to prove that Doom was subject to Warlock’s OAAR except specifically while hitting warlock; doom always triggered his special attack abilities except when they were chained from a basic attack that made contact, but then again Warlock was a mess upon release and reducing abilities outside of offensive ones.

    I asked for and got clarification on this. Apparently there was an error in communication. Offensive abilities can trigger either on activation or on hit. Offensive ability accuracy reduction only takes effect on hit, not on activation. In that sense, OAAR and DAAR operate similarly just with different targets. OAAR affects the attacker on his attack's hits. DAAR affects the target on the attacker's hits. Neither stops effects that activate on attack activation, but non "typed" AAR does (because it is always on).

    It was described to me a couple different ways colloquially, and I should have detected the discrepancy between the different descriptions and clarified. Instead I ran with the most concise one for simplicity, which unfortunately contained an error. I take responsibility for that one: I should have spotted that error.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,558 Guardian

    BTW what’s up with the title of this thread? “There is no such thing as defensive ability accuracy”

    Shouldn't it be something like are are no such things as Defensive Abilities? Because well for there being no such thing that specific language sure is common within the game, so much so that when I went to point it out with in game references I realized how time consuming that would be.

    I was just making up an eye catching title. But the point was to target a misconception, that defensive ability accuracy reduction reduces defensive ability accuracy, which would be the ability accuracy of defensive abilities. There aren't actually any abilities that are defined as defensive abilities in the game, so there isn't any such thing as defensive ability accuracy that only applies to defensive abilities, so defensive ability accuracy reduction cannot reduce defensive ability accuracy. Since DAAR cannot modify DAA, it must work on some other situational mechanism.

    A lot of language in the game mixes game jargon specific to MCOC with colloquial descriptions that don't actually match the game at all, although the game has tried over time to reduce those. But the game descriptions will often simplify what's happening for the benefit of most players, even though the game doesn't strictly behave in that way. Defensive ability accuracy is one of those things.

    Physicists still call gravity a force, even though they are supposed to know better, because it is a convenient fiction most of the time.
  • Agent_X_zzzAgent_X_zzz Posts: 4,494 ★★★★★
    Corkscrew said:


    Magik is actually an example of all three types of ability. As she can proc limbo through a buff expiring, meaning neither offensive or defensive.

    I'm assuming you mean in the case of MD, which would be a very similar case to Dorm's degen.

    Other nodes as well such as pilfer contribute to that same way, of rather (passively) gaining limbo
  • thanks4playingthanks4playing Posts: 805 ★★★
    what about destructive feedback or aggression fury? if proxima parries the defender's attacks if s/he has either of those, shouldn't proxima be able to negate it since those abilities trigger when the defender is attacking?

    If so, what about stun immunity? Does the ability to be immune to stun proc when the defender is attacking or when the defender is being parried? I'm thinking the latter, so maybe this is simply an ability (so neither defensive nor offensive)?
  • VoltolosVoltolos Posts: 1,120 ★★★

    If so, what about stun immunity? Does the ability to be immune to stun proc when the defender is attacking or when the defender is being parried? I'm thinking the latter, so maybe this is simply an ability (so neither defensive nor offensive)?

    Immunity is always active and not subject to AAR
  • thanks4playingthanks4playing Posts: 805 ★★★
    Voltolos said:

    If so, what about stun immunity? Does the ability to be immune to stun proc when the defender is attacking or when the defender is being parried? I'm thinking the latter, so maybe this is simply an ability (so neither defensive nor offensive)?

    Immunity is always active and not subject to AAR
    What about destructive feedback or aggression fury?
  • ChikelChikel Posts: 2,056 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    So are all nodes counted as an ability? And are prefights counted as an ability? Because I might be wrong but I think I recall using Crossbones and he didn't shut down some nodes even though they triggered when I was hitting them, don't remember exactly though

    I believe some effects either do not have ability accuracy and thus cannot have ability accuracy reduced, or they are intrinsically immune to ability accuracy modifications. Nodes in particular seem to have many instances of ad hoc design intended to ensure they work in all situations the devs want them to work, even if that differs from what would normally happen if a champion possessed those same abilities.
    Nodes like Tranquility are not affected by AAR even though it doesn't say so in their description
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,558 Guardian
    Voltolos said:

    If so, what about stun immunity? Does the ability to be immune to stun proc when the defender is attacking or when the defender is being parried? I'm thinking the latter, so maybe this is simply an ability (so neither defensive nor offensive)?

    Immunity is always active and not subject to AAR
    Just to amplify this a bit, immunity is a state. Nothing is triggered when a champion with immunity to any effect is struck by that effect. The effect just doesn't happen, due to the fact that the champion is in a state where the effect doesn't work. The immunity doesn't "trigger" protection. AAR can stop an immunity effect from triggering and being applied to a champion, but once that immunity effect is there nothing more has to happen for the immunity to confer its protection. It is no different from something like armor. Armor confers some damage mitigation, and you can prevent an armor effect from triggering, but if the armor effect is already there nothing "triggers" when you land an attack: the armor effect is simply increasing the champion's armor stat, which reduces incoming damage from attacks.
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Voltolos said:

    If so, what about stun immunity? Does the ability to be immune to stun proc when the defender is attacking or when the defender is being parried? I'm thinking the latter, so maybe this is simply an ability (so neither defensive nor offensive)?

    Immunity is always active and not subject to AAR
    Just to amplify this a bit, immunity is a state. Nothing is triggered when a champion with immunity to any effect is struck by that effect. The effect just doesn't happen, due to the fact that the champion is in a state where the effect doesn't work. The immunity doesn't "trigger" protection. AAR can stop an immunity effect from triggering and being applied to a champion, but once that immunity effect is there nothing more has to happen for the immunity to confer its protection. It is no different from something like armor. Armor confers some damage mitigation, and you can prevent an armor effect from triggering, but if the armor effect is already there nothing "triggers" when you land an attack: the armor effect is simply increasing the champion's armor stat, which reduces incoming damage from attacks.
    To ask a point about this, when nebula and untron and such were buffed, apocalypse was able to bypass their immunities.
    Would that mean he prevented the immunity status effect from applying at fight start or that immunity is indeed a trigger that happens during the fight repeatedly wheneve the effect is placed?

    Also in game pretty much all shrug offs accompanied by "immunity" call out
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