Why Falcon shuts down Mordo's astral evade?

rischiorischio Member Posts: 163 ★
edited September 2021 in Bugs and Known Issues
Ok so while Falcon has lock on active his attacks passively reduce DAA by 100%. This is how he shuts down evade.
Mordo is immune to passive AA reduction effects, ergo Mordo should be immune from Lock-on DAA. The only thing that stops his ability from triggering is a concussion or fatigue debuff, or obviously any form of true strike or specific evade counter (like repulsors from Iron Man).

I was smartassedly going to prove this in a duel using Falcon expecting to get my arse kicked, while lo and behold, Mordo stands still like a bowling pin while I wack him into oblivion.

Does anyone have a good explanation or is this a bug?
Post edited by Kabam Zibiit on

Comments

  • FlyGalaxyBombFlyGalaxyBomb Member Posts: 778 ★★★
    simple conclusion before you get an essay explanation by DNA,
    yes
  • rischiorischio Member Posts: 163 ★
    I patiently wait because it specifically says for falcon "passively reduce defensive ability accuracy" and mordo "immune to passive ability accuracy reduction effects".
    I'm no English mothertongue, but I find very hard to find the ambiguity
  • TheVyrusTheVyrus Member Posts: 418 ★★★
    edited September 2021
    Mordo's astral evade is not a passive ability. Falcon's lock on is not passive either. They both are active abilities when specifically triggered.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Member Posts: 9,264 ★★★★★
    TheVyrus said:

    Mordo's astral evade is not a passive ability. Falcon's lock on is not passive either. They both are active abilities when specifically triggered.


  • SpideyFunkoSpideyFunko Member Posts: 21,943 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    TheVyrus said:

    Mordo's astral evade is not a passive ability. Falcon's lock on is not passive either. They both are active abilities when specifically triggered.

    First of all, the opposite of "Passive" is not "Active." When referring to Abilities, the opposite of "Passive" is "Not Passive." That's not being funny: the definition of a Passive Ability is that the Ability is always on. The opposite of that are Abilities that are not always on, which are the ones that are triggered by something. Special 1 for example is an Ability that is not Passive. "Active" and "On" are synonymous in this context, so in the terminology of the game, Passive abilities are always Active.

    These words mean something different when they refer to Effects. A Passive Effect is just a type of Effect, like color. There's no opposite of "Purple." Effects can have one of a number of types, the ones most familiar to players are Buff, Debuff, and Passive (there are others hidden under the hood). None of them are the opposite of the others.

    As to Falcon and Mordo, I'm honestly not certain. I suspect that the significant piece here is in this phrasing: "while Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks Passively reduce the opponent's Defensive Ability Accuracy by 100%." In other words, Lock On is not itself Passively reducing Mordo's ability accuracy. Instead, Falcon's attacks are doing so on contact. It is possible that, in game engine terms, Mordo's Astral Evade is "seeing" the DAA come from strikes, and is treating them as effects from active attacks rather than from passive effects.
    the last paragraph is how it was explained to me
  • ChikelChikel Member Posts: 2,106 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    TheVyrus said:

    Mordo's astral evade is not a passive ability. Falcon's lock on is not passive either. They both are active abilities when specifically triggered.

    First of all, the opposite of "Passive" is not "Active." When referring to Abilities, the opposite of "Passive" is "Not Passive." That's not being funny: the definition of a Passive Ability is that the Ability is always on. The opposite of that are Abilities that are not always on, which are the ones that are triggered by something. Special 1 for example is an Ability that is not Passive. "Active" and "On" are synonymous in this context, so in the terminology of the game, Passive abilities are always Active.

    These words mean something different when they refer to Effects. A Passive Effect is just a type of Effect, like color. There's no opposite of "Purple." Effects can have one of a number of types, the ones most familiar to players are Buff, Debuff, and Passive (there are others hidden under the hood). None of them are the opposite of the others.

    As to Falcon and Mordo, I'm honestly not certain. I suspect that the significant piece here is in this phrasing: "while Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks Passively reduce the opponent's Defensive Ability Accuracy by 100%." In other words, Lock On is not itself Passively reducing Mordo's ability accuracy. Instead, Falcon's attacks are doing so on contact. It is possible that, in game engine terms, Mordo's Astral Evade is "seeing" the DAA come from strikes, and is treating them as effects from active attacks rather than from passive effects.
    I don't really understand Mordo's ability accuracy resistance. I have always been able to shut him down with AA. Aren't neuro's passive AAR?
  • MaratoxMaratox Member Posts: 1,618 ★★★★★
    Chikel said:

    DNA3000 said:

    TheVyrus said:

    Mordo's astral evade is not a passive ability. Falcon's lock on is not passive either. They both are active abilities when specifically triggered.

    First of all, the opposite of "Passive" is not "Active." When referring to Abilities, the opposite of "Passive" is "Not Passive." That's not being funny: the definition of a Passive Ability is that the Ability is always on. The opposite of that are Abilities that are not always on, which are the ones that are triggered by something. Special 1 for example is an Ability that is not Passive. "Active" and "On" are synonymous in this context, so in the terminology of the game, Passive abilities are always Active.

    These words mean something different when they refer to Effects. A Passive Effect is just a type of Effect, like color. There's no opposite of "Purple." Effects can have one of a number of types, the ones most familiar to players are Buff, Debuff, and Passive (there are others hidden under the hood). None of them are the opposite of the others.

    As to Falcon and Mordo, I'm honestly not certain. I suspect that the significant piece here is in this phrasing: "while Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks Passively reduce the opponent's Defensive Ability Accuracy by 100%." In other words, Lock On is not itself Passively reducing Mordo's ability accuracy. Instead, Falcon's attacks are doing so on contact. It is possible that, in game engine terms, Mordo's Astral Evade is "seeing" the DAA come from strikes, and is treating them as effects from active attacks rather than from passive effects.
    I don't really understand Mordo's ability accuracy resistance. I have always been able to shut him down with AA. Aren't neuro's passive AAR?
    They aren’t, because the AAR comes from an effect (neurotoxin). Mordo is immune to domino’s PASSIVE constant AAR reduction, but he isn’t immune to concussion, which is an effect that reduces AAR similar to the neurotoxin.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,658 Guardian
    Maratox said:

    Chikel said:

    DNA3000 said:

    TheVyrus said:

    Mordo's astral evade is not a passive ability. Falcon's lock on is not passive either. They both are active abilities when specifically triggered.

    First of all, the opposite of "Passive" is not "Active." When referring to Abilities, the opposite of "Passive" is "Not Passive." That's not being funny: the definition of a Passive Ability is that the Ability is always on. The opposite of that are Abilities that are not always on, which are the ones that are triggered by something. Special 1 for example is an Ability that is not Passive. "Active" and "On" are synonymous in this context, so in the terminology of the game, Passive abilities are always Active.

    These words mean something different when they refer to Effects. A Passive Effect is just a type of Effect, like color. There's no opposite of "Purple." Effects can have one of a number of types, the ones most familiar to players are Buff, Debuff, and Passive (there are others hidden under the hood). None of them are the opposite of the others.

    As to Falcon and Mordo, I'm honestly not certain. I suspect that the significant piece here is in this phrasing: "while Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks Passively reduce the opponent's Defensive Ability Accuracy by 100%." In other words, Lock On is not itself Passively reducing Mordo's ability accuracy. Instead, Falcon's attacks are doing so on contact. It is possible that, in game engine terms, Mordo's Astral Evade is "seeing" the DAA come from strikes, and is treating them as effects from active attacks rather than from passive effects.
    I don't really understand Mordo's ability accuracy resistance. I have always been able to shut him down with AA. Aren't neuro's passive AAR?
    They aren’t, because the AAR comes from an effect (neurotoxin). Mordo is immune to domino’s PASSIVE constant AAR reduction, but he isn’t immune to concussion, which is an effect that reduces AAR similar to the neurotoxin.
    If we're talking about Quake or Luke Cage concussion those are debuffs, and Mordo is not supposed to be immune to AAR debuffs, he is supposed to be immune to AAR from passive effects. Domino's AAR comes from a passive effect. There just isn't an icon for it due to some complexity in how it works, similar to how Magik's Limbo damage comes from a passive damage effect but there's no passive effect icon for that either.

    I'm not sure about AA, to be honest usually when I have stacked up multiple neurotoxins on something they tend to be dead before I can tell if I'm affecting their ability accuracy.

    I just searched Youtube for an AA vs Mordo fight and picked the first one I saw, which was this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtBB082PG6Q

    I don't know what the sig level of AA is there, but I watched the entire thing looking for a failed evade and did not find one. I think there should have been a decent chance to see a failed evade even at sig 1 if AA was reducing evade chance in that fight. Does anyone have a recent example of AA causing Mordo to fail an astral evade in a situation where there aren't any nodes that could explain that happening?
  • Sw0rdMasterSw0rdMaster Member Posts: 1,793 ★★★★
    edited September 2021
    Because Kabam said so.


  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Member Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    TheVyrus said:

    Mordo's astral evade is not a passive ability. Falcon's lock on is not passive either. They both are active abilities when specifically triggered.


    As to Falcon and Mordo, I'm honestly not certain. I suspect that the significant piece here is in this phrasing: "while Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks Passively reduce the opponent's Defensive Ability Accuracy by 100%." In other words, Lock On is not itself Passively reducing Mordo's ability accuracy. Instead, Falcon's attacks are doing so on contact. It is possible that, in game engine terms, Mordo's Astral Evade is "seeing" the DAA come from strikes, and is treating them as effects from active attacks rather than from passive effects.
    while this might be an explanation on why it happens, not aan excuse for it happening. i stringly suspect like @Haji_Saab says, it's just inconsistent aar immunitites like archangel
  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Member Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    blac widow cannot reduce his aa with her sig. although that could be becuase it's massively different from falcons
    @CoatHang3r you usually have something that could explain this stuff
  • ChikelChikel Member Posts: 2,106 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Maratox said:

    Chikel said:

    DNA3000 said:

    TheVyrus said:

    Mordo's astral evade is not a passive ability. Falcon's lock on is not passive either. They both are active abilities when specifically triggered.

    First of all, the opposite of "Passive" is not "Active." When referring to Abilities, the opposite of "Passive" is "Not Passive." That's not being funny: the definition of a Passive Ability is that the Ability is always on. The opposite of that are Abilities that are not always on, which are the ones that are triggered by something. Special 1 for example is an Ability that is not Passive. "Active" and "On" are synonymous in this context, so in the terminology of the game, Passive abilities are always Active.

    These words mean something different when they refer to Effects. A Passive Effect is just a type of Effect, like color. There's no opposite of "Purple." Effects can have one of a number of types, the ones most familiar to players are Buff, Debuff, and Passive (there are others hidden under the hood). None of them are the opposite of the others.

    As to Falcon and Mordo, I'm honestly not certain. I suspect that the significant piece here is in this phrasing: "while Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks Passively reduce the opponent's Defensive Ability Accuracy by 100%." In other words, Lock On is not itself Passively reducing Mordo's ability accuracy. Instead, Falcon's attacks are doing so on contact. It is possible that, in game engine terms, Mordo's Astral Evade is "seeing" the DAA come from strikes, and is treating them as effects from active attacks rather than from passive effects.
    I don't really understand Mordo's ability accuracy resistance. I have always been able to shut him down with AA. Aren't neuro's passive AAR?
    They aren’t, because the AAR comes from an effect (neurotoxin). Mordo is immune to domino’s PASSIVE constant AAR reduction, but he isn’t immune to concussion, which is an effect that reduces AAR similar to the neurotoxin.
    If we're talking about Quake or Luke Cage concussion those are debuffs, and Mordo is not supposed to be immune to AAR debuffs, he is supposed to be immune to AAR from passive effects. Domino's AAR comes from a passive effect. There just isn't an icon for it due to some complexity in how it works, similar to how Magik's Limbo damage comes from a passive damage effect but there's no passive effect icon for that either.

    I'm not sure about AA, to be honest usually when I have stacked up multiple neurotoxins on something they tend to be dead before I can tell if I'm affecting their ability accuracy.

    I just searched Youtube for an AA vs Mordo fight and picked the first one I saw, which was this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtBB082PG6Q

    I don't know what the sig level of AA is there, but I watched the entire thing looking for a failed evade and did not find one. I think there should have been a decent chance to see a failed evade even at sig 1 if AA was reducing evade chance in that fight. Does anyone have a recent example of AA causing Mordo to fail an astral evade in a situation where there aren't any nodes that could explain that happening?
    I used AA against Mordo in 6.2.5 and I'm pretty sure I shut him down unless I'm misremembering. Is there any accessible Mordo somewhere and I will test this out
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,658 Guardian
    AverageDesi said:

    DNA3000 said:

    TheVyrus said:

    Mordo's astral evade is not a passive ability. Falcon's lock on is not passive either. They both are active abilities when specifically triggered.


    As to Falcon and Mordo, I'm honestly not certain. I suspect that the significant piece here is in this phrasing: "while Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks Passively reduce the opponent's Defensive Ability Accuracy by 100%." In other words, Lock On is not itself Passively reducing Mordo's ability accuracy. Instead, Falcon's attacks are doing so on contact. It is possible that, in game engine terms, Mordo's Astral Evade is "seeing" the DAA come from strikes, and is treating them as effects from active attacks rather than from passive effects.
    while this might be an explanation on why it happens, not aan excuse for it happening. i stringly suspect like @Haji_Saab says, it's just inconsistent aar immunitites like archangel
    The game engine itself is rarely inconsistent. It is the English descriptions of the abilities that tend to be either ambiguous or in error. The game engine can only do what it is programmed to do, and when it does that it generally does that very consistently unless told to do something different.

    Because the text descriptions are intended to be simplified, they tend to be overbroad. That means abilities tend to do more or different than described: that's inevitable with colloquial descriptions. And when abilities come into conflict, overbroad descriptions can appear contradictory on the surface.

    Saying it is just inconsistent implies it is possible to make the behavior consistent, but with the simplified descriptions we have that's impossible. Regardless of how it worked, it would appear to be inconsistent from some point of view. The alternative is technically precise descriptions, but those would make the game opaque to the vast majority of players who would not understand the technically precise descriptions.
  • Agent_X_zzzAgent_X_zzz Member Posts: 4,498 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Maratox said:

    Chikel said:

    DNA3000 said:

    TheVyrus said:

    Mordo's astral evade is not a passive ability. Falcon's lock on is not passive either. They both are active abilities when specifically triggered.

    First of all, the opposite of "Passive" is not "Active." When referring to Abilities, the opposite of "Passive" is "Not Passive." That's not being funny: the definition of a Passive Ability is that the Ability is always on. The opposite of that are Abilities that are not always on, which are the ones that are triggered by something. Special 1 for example is an Ability that is not Passive. "Active" and "On" are synonymous in this context, so in the terminology of the game, Passive abilities are always Active.

    These words mean something different when they refer to Effects. A Passive Effect is just a type of Effect, like color. There's no opposite of "Purple." Effects can have one of a number of types, the ones most familiar to players are Buff, Debuff, and Passive (there are others hidden under the hood). None of them are the opposite of the others.

    As to Falcon and Mordo, I'm honestly not certain. I suspect that the significant piece here is in this phrasing: "while Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks Passively reduce the opponent's Defensive Ability Accuracy by 100%." In other words, Lock On is not itself Passively reducing Mordo's ability accuracy. Instead, Falcon's attacks are doing so on contact. It is possible that, in game engine terms, Mordo's Astral Evade is "seeing" the DAA come from strikes, and is treating them as effects from active attacks rather than from passive effects.
    I don't really understand Mordo's ability accuracy resistance. I have always been able to shut him down with AA. Aren't neuro's passive AAR?
    They aren’t, because the AAR comes from an effect (neurotoxin). Mordo is immune to domino’s PASSIVE constant AAR reduction, but he isn’t immune to concussion, which is an effect that reduces AAR similar to the neurotoxin.
    If we're talking about Quake or Luke Cage concussion those are debuffs, and Mordo is not supposed to be immune to AAR debuffs, he is supposed to be immune to AAR from passive effects. Domino's AAR comes from a passive effect. There just isn't an icon for it due to some complexity in how it works, similar to how Magik's Limbo damage comes from a passive damage effect but there's no passive effect icon for that either.

    I'm not sure about AA, to be honest usually when I have stacked up multiple neurotoxins on something they tend to be dead before I can tell if I'm affecting their ability accuracy.

    I just searched Youtube for an AA vs Mordo fight and picked the first one I saw, which was this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZtBB082PG6Q

    I don't know what the sig level of AA is there, but I watched the entire thing looking for a failed evade and did not find one. I think there should have been a decent chance to see a failed evade even at sig 1 if AA was reducing evade chance in that fight. Does anyone have a recent example of AA causing Mordo to fail an astral evade in a situation where there aren't any nodes that could explain that happening?
    Yeah his aar is not failing mordos evade, it is because of the long reach of aas heavy he is able to reconnect it making mordo not degen him, the evade prompt still triggers but is not "successful'"
  • rischiorischio Member Posts: 163 ★
    DNA3000 said:


    As to Falcon and Mordo, I'm honestly not certain. I suspect that the significant piece here is in this phrasing: "while Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks Passively reduce the opponent's Defensive Ability Accuracy by 100%." In other words, Lock On is not itself Passively reducing Mordo's ability accuracy. Instead, Falcon's attacks are doing so on contact. It is possible that, in game engine terms, Mordo's Astral Evade is "seeing" the DAA come from strikes, and is treating them as effects from active attacks rather than from passive effects.


    I understand it might be an engine technicality though it seems to be contradicting the English description. If it is as you suggest, they should just remove the word "passively" from Falcon's description. If the engine treats something stated as "passive" as active, there is definitely an ambiguity that needs to be solved.

  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Member Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    AverageDesi said:

    DNA3000 said:

    TheVyrus said:

    Mordo's astral evade is not a passive ability. Falcon's lock on is not passive either. They both are active abilities when specifically triggered.


    As to Falcon and Mordo, I'm honestly not certain. I suspect that the significant piece here is in this phrasing: "while Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks Passively reduce the opponent's Defensive Ability Accuracy by 100%." In other words, Lock On is not itself Passively reducing Mordo's ability accuracy. Instead, Falcon's attacks are doing so on contact. It is possible that, in game engine terms, Mordo's Astral Evade is "seeing" the DAA come from strikes, and is treating them as effects from active attacks rather than from passive effects.
    while this might be an explanation on why it happens, not aan excuse for it happening. i stringly suspect like @Haji_Saab says, it's just inconsistent aar immunitites like archangel
    The game engine itself is rarely inconsistent. It is the English descriptions of the abilities that tend to be either ambiguous or in error. The game engine can only do what it is programmed to do, and when it does that it generally does that very consistently unless told to do something different.

    Because the text descriptions are intended to be simplified, they tend to be overbroad. That means abilities tend to do more or different than described: that's inevitable with colloquial descriptions. And when abilities come into conflict, overbroad descriptions can appear contradictory on the surface.

    Saying it is just inconsistent implies it is possible to make the behavior consistent, but with the simplified descriptions we have that's impossible. Regardless of how it worked, it would appear to be inconsistent from some point of view. The alternative is technically precise descriptions, but those would make the game opaque to the vast majority of players who would not understand the technically precise descriptions.
    it's not the text that is ambiguous but rather the implementation of the actual mechanic. same mechanics are implemeted differently for whatever reason. Archangel is supposed to be immune to AAR. that is unambiguous.BW prevents abilities from triggering when striking opponent. Angel perfectly ignores this. everyything is dandy

    but like we have experienced in the past, abiliites that are "DAAR" can still reduce AA of Angel. In practice and description these DAAR abilities work the same way as Bw's. but for some reason do not behave the same way with ARchangel which i can only attribute to a different coding in the engine

    What i meant as "inconsistent " is kabams coding itself and not the engine
  • Haunted_ghoštHaunted_ghošt Member Posts: 75 ★
    Maybe he’s still supposed to evade but it’s also preventing the stun from being removed

    That or it is 100% a bug
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  • AverageDesiAverageDesi Member Posts: 5,260 ★★★★★
    kabam really hates @Haji_Saab
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