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More loyalty should be added to season rewards

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    FenicoFenico Posts: 306 ★★★
    xNig said:

    Fenico said:

    This is the only correct solution on this situation. It is useless to push in the war anymore, "just save as much loyalty as you can and don't care about season rewards" is the recipe for success for upcoming seasons.

    Adding loyalty to season rewards solves all the issues, there will be a reason to push for higher season rewards and it will solve loyalty drought.

    I've seen few arguments in sense "if you need more loyalty you are playing in higher level of AW than you should". At first glance it seems like good argument but we literally get 2 potions for winning a war. It is barely sustainable as it is even without the store.

    But if you don’t spend potions in a lower tier war, whatever you get from winning/losing a war is a bonus.
    I mean yeah, thats what i said. Not pushing higher is the recipe for success after these changes. Quite ridiculous.
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,256 ★★★★★
    Fenico said:

    xNig said:

    Fenico said:

    This is the only correct solution on this situation. It is useless to push in the war anymore, "just save as much loyalty as you can and don't care about season rewards" is the recipe for success for upcoming seasons.

    Adding loyalty to season rewards solves all the issues, there will be a reason to push for higher season rewards and it will solve loyalty drought.

    I've seen few arguments in sense "if you need more loyalty you are playing in higher level of AW than you should". At first glance it seems like good argument but we literally get 2 potions for winning a war. It is barely sustainable as it is even without the store.

    But if you don’t spend potions in a lower tier war, whatever you get from winning/losing a war is a bonus.
    I mean yeah, thats what i said. Not pushing higher is the recipe for success after these changes. Quite ridiculous.
    People can still push, if they want. There’s always a choice to spend units to buy pots instead. End of the day, it’s people’s choice in how they want to ration their loyalty, much like glory, cats, gold or whatever resource available in the game.
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    FenicoFenico Posts: 306 ★★★
    xNig said:

    Fenico said:

    xNig said:

    Fenico said:

    This is the only correct solution on this situation. It is useless to push in the war anymore, "just save as much loyalty as you can and don't care about season rewards" is the recipe for success for upcoming seasons.

    Adding loyalty to season rewards solves all the issues, there will be a reason to push for higher season rewards and it will solve loyalty drought.

    I've seen few arguments in sense "if you need more loyalty you are playing in higher level of AW than you should". At first glance it seems like good argument but we literally get 2 potions for winning a war. It is barely sustainable as it is even without the store.

    But if you don’t spend potions in a lower tier war, whatever you get from winning/losing a war is a bonus.
    I mean yeah, thats what i said. Not pushing higher is the recipe for success after these changes. Quite ridiculous.
    People can still push, if they want. There’s always a choice to spend units to buy pots instead. End of the day, it’s people’s choice in how they want to ration their loyalty, much like glory, cats, gold or whatever resource available in the game.
    Yeah, people have choice to push, they'll just get less than if they didn't.
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,256 ★★★★★
    Fenico said:

    xNig said:

    Fenico said:

    xNig said:

    Fenico said:

    This is the only correct solution on this situation. It is useless to push in the war anymore, "just save as much loyalty as you can and don't care about season rewards" is the recipe for success for upcoming seasons.

    Adding loyalty to season rewards solves all the issues, there will be a reason to push for higher season rewards and it will solve loyalty drought.

    I've seen few arguments in sense "if you need more loyalty you are playing in higher level of AW than you should". At first glance it seems like good argument but we literally get 2 potions for winning a war. It is barely sustainable as it is even without the store.

    But if you don’t spend potions in a lower tier war, whatever you get from winning/losing a war is a bonus.
    I mean yeah, thats what i said. Not pushing higher is the recipe for success after these changes. Quite ridiculous.
    People can still push, if they want. There’s always a choice to spend units to buy pots instead. End of the day, it’s people’s choice in how they want to ration their loyalty, much like glory, cats, gold or whatever resource available in the game.
    Yeah, people have choice to push, they'll just get less than if they didn't.
    Makes the decision easier right? Lol
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    MauledMauled Posts: 3,957 Guardian
    I think that with the updates to the loyalty store there definitely needs to be loyalty included in the season rewards. As it stands, players are in a bit of a catch-22.

    They have a choice of utilising the revamped glory store or putting effort into AW, unless you’re one of those people who has a million alts to gift loyalty at Chinese New Year, or the very few people in the world who can play itemless T1 AW.
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    SeenkSeenk Posts: 208 ★★
    Absolutely agree, we spend more than we receive.

    We get 100%, and spend 130%, thereby going into the red, or we will have to play without any boost / potion
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,256 ★★★★★
    Seenk said:

    Absolutely agree, we spend more than we receive.

    We get 100%, and spend 130%, thereby going into the red, or we will have to play without any boost / potion

    Question, what’s wrong with playing without any boosts or potions?
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    IllusionaryIllusionary Posts: 43
    edited August 2022
    xNig said:

    Seenk said:

    Absolutely agree, we spend more than we receive.

    We get 100%, and spend 130%, thereby going into the red, or we will have to play without any boost / potion

    Question, what’s wrong with playing without any boosts or potions?
    Hey XNig, first off I want to say it's unacceptable that people are personally attacking you in this thread. Genuinely scummy behavior and I implore all of those doing so to stop and promote a respectful, insightful dialogue.

    Second off, you're not really accounting for T1 war players when you talk about not healing to full or fully boosting. In T1 wars where a single death can be the difference between making masters or not, the expectation is to fully heal and boost up for every single fight. Not doing so is, for all intents and purposes, completely out of the question and will lead to reprecussuons from officers. The largest issue I and other T1 war players have brought up with the new changes is that you're simply not able to spend loyalty on potions/boosts AND the high tier items in the upcoming store. If you spend your loyalty on T3A and T6B, you're forced to use units for items, and if you use your loyalty on potions/boost, you aren't left with anywhere near enough to be used in the store.

    This just widens the gap between f2p/low-spend players in high tier war and dolphins/whales, because if f2p/low-spenders use their loyalty to sustain item use, they aren't able to keep up with the dolphins/whales who are able to also make those large loyalty purchases. Couple that with the extremely lacking state of masters rewards atm, and it's theoretically more rewarding for a f2p T1 player to play in T3/4 and spend all of their loyalty on the big ticket items. We're effectively being offered the choice at being able to continue competing with the best at the hindrance of account growth, or not being able to compete.
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    Eb0ny-O-M4wEb0ny-O-M4w Posts: 13,795 ★★★★★

    We have more than enough already. More stuff should be available to purchase in store

    Please show us where we have more than enough
    You can do it by yourself
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    MauledMauled Posts: 3,957 Guardian

    xNig said:

    Seenk said:

    Absolutely agree, we spend more than we receive.

    We get 100%, and spend 130%, thereby going into the red, or we will have to play without any boost / potion

    Question, what’s wrong with playing without any boosts or potions?
    Hey XNig, first off I want to say it's unacceptable that people are personally attacking you in this thread. Genuinely scummy behavior and I implore all of those doing so to stop and promote a respectful, insightful dialogue.

    Second off, you're not really accounting for T1 war players when you talk about not healing to full or fully boosting. In T1 wars where a single death can be the difference between making masters or not, the expectation is to fully heal and boost up for every single fight. Not doing so is, for all intents and purposes, completely out of the question and will lead to reprecussuons from officers. The largest issue I and other T1 war players have brought up with the new changes is that you're simply not able to spend loyalty on potions/boosts AND the high tier items in the upcoming store. If you spend your loyalty on T3A and T6B, you're forced to use units for items, and if you use your loyalty on potions/boost, you aren't left with anywhere near enough to be used in the store.

    This just widens the gap between f2p/low-spend players in high tier war and dolphins/whales, because if f2p/low-spenders use their loyalty to sustain item use, they aren't able to keep up with the dolphins/whales who are able to also make those large loyalty purchases. Couple that with the extremely lacking state of masters rewards atm, and it's theoretically more rewarding for a f2p T1 player to play in T3/4 and spend all of their loyalty on the big ticket items. We're effectively being offered the choice at being able to continue competing with the best at the hindrance of account growth, or not being able to compete.
    Unfortunately his stance is that it’s your choice to compete. You made your bed so you should sleep in it.

    I agree with you, some of these changes are sounding the death knell of competitive AW.
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    Dark_Claw1Dark_Claw1 Posts: 139
    I think debating wether they should allow items in war is a worthy discussion but this is meant to talk about Loyalty and the replenishment of it.

    It should work like glory now that they moved potions to the loyalty store. For that to happen they need to change how much we are awarded or reduce the cost of things or a combination of both.

    No one is saying that everyone should be able to wildly spend as much as they want but there should be a way to always have loyalty while maintaining a stash of items.
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    ToastbusterToastbuster Posts: 39

    Doing the math on Loyalty rewards versus costs of war season, the replenishment rate compared to when they were available in Glory do not match. Not even close.

    1 lvl 4 potion a day 20k X 30 days = 600k
    1 invulnerability boost 10k X 10 times a season = 100k
    1 power boost same as above = 100k

    Rewards are tiered but for tier 7 it’s 27,300 for a win and 16,800 for a loss. Go 50/50 and it’s 22,050 average

    22,050 X 12 wars a season = 264,400

    Spend 800k+ get 264,400 and that’s a loss of 535,600 loyalty a season.

    This is not sustainable like it was with glory. If you added say 500k in the overall season rewards that would even it out and make it more sustainable.

    Agree? Ideas?

    How about trying it this way? Put 24 lvl 4 pots (2 per war) & 36 boosts (1 of each per war) per season. 840k per season that way. That being said, I don't use boosts off-season so when season starts I'm maxed out on boosts. That accounts for 210,000 loyalty banked prior to the season start. So 246,400 (your average earned number) & 210,000 is 456,400. Still 383,600 short. Roughly 32k short per war this way.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,281 ★★★★★
    xNig said:

    Seenk said:

    Absolutely agree, we spend more than we receive.

    We get 100%, and spend 130%, thereby going into the red, or we will have to play without any boost / potion

    Question, what’s wrong with playing without any boosts or potions?
    The real question is, if people are spending that much and coming up Gold, why invest all that Loyalty? It's about Rewards versus effort.
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    CoppinCoppin Posts: 2,601 ★★★★★
    I dont understand this types of posts...
    U guys do realize that besides being a game ... Kabam runs a business...
    Yes the cost against loyalty gain is not equal...
    BECAUSE THEY WANT YOU TO SPEND UNITS...
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    Dark_Claw1Dark_Claw1 Posts: 139
    Using a few potions and boosts during war shouldn’t cost that much. It’s what this thread is meant to discuss. There needs to be more loyalty awarded or the cost of items reduced. Or both.

    Buying 1 lvl 4 potion a day shouldn’t make you loyalty poor. You should be able to sustain a manageable stash and still have loyalty to spend on other stuff when needed.

    1 lvl 4 potion a day is 7,300,000 loyalty a year
    2 boosts a war is 240,000 a season 10 seasons? That’s 2,400,000 a year. Just those 2 things is 9,700,000 a year.

    I feel like buying 1 lvl 4 potion and 2 boosts a war should be very easy to maintain and purchase. Compared to what you can purchase with glory this is WAY less. We should also have plenty of loyalty on top of these purchases to buy something else when needed. I feel like a bare minimum of loyalty should probably double the cost of these minimal items. 19,400,000/12 = 1,616,667 loyalty a month

    So, to sustain that either they need to lower the cost of items drastically or provide a lot more loyalty awards or both.

    The challenge is glory is priced and awarded with reasonably priced numbers. Loyalty is priced like it Monopoly money.
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,256 ★★★★★
    edited August 2022

    xNig said:

    Seenk said:

    Absolutely agree, we spend more than we receive.

    We get 100%, and spend 130%, thereby going into the red, or we will have to play without any boost / potion

    Question, what’s wrong with playing without any boosts or potions?
    Hey XNig, first off I want to say it's unacceptable that people are personally attacking you in this thread. Genuinely scummy behavior and I implore all of those doing so to stop and promote a respectful, insightful dialogue.

    Second off, you're not really accounting for T1 war players when you talk about not healing to full or fully boosting. In T1 wars where a single death can be the difference between making masters or not, the expectation is to fully heal and boost up for every single fight. Not doing so is, for all intents and purposes, completely out of the question and will lead to reprecussuons from officers. The largest issue I and other T1 war players have brought up with the new changes is that you're simply not able to spend loyalty on potions/boosts AND the high tier items in the upcoming store. If you spend your loyalty on T3A and T6B, you're forced to use units for items, and if you use your loyalty on potions/boost, you aren't left with anywhere near enough to be used in the store.

    This just widens the gap between f2p/low-spend players in high tier war and dolphins/whales, because if f2p/low-spenders use their loyalty to sustain item use, they aren't able to keep up with the dolphins/whales who are able to also make those large loyalty purchases. Couple that with the extremely lacking state of masters rewards atm, and it's theoretically more rewarding for a f2p T1 player to play in T3/4 and spend all of their loyalty on the big ticket items. We're effectively being offered the choice at being able to continue competing with the best at the hindrance of account growth, or not being able to compete.
    I agree with what you’re saying.

    What isn’t accounted for is that, because of the loyalty store, people will want to hoard their loyalty and not spend them on boosts game wide. So the overall number of deaths in war, even in T1, will start to increase as people boost and pot less.

    This will result in the entire spectrum of alliances remaining constant, excluding those that are overly expending their loyalty on items as they become unable to maintain their position in a mode that now requires genuine skill, rather than rainbow boosts and crazy potting, to minimize deaths.

    The thing about “keeping up” with whales, it’s impossible given how offers are designed. It’s so straightforwardly obvious that big spenders will always get to the peak first, while the others lag behind, in terms of champs, prestige (sig stones), and even AW.

    I get what you’re saying about f2p/low spenders v whales/dolphins in higher tier AW. Thing is, this actually provides a more even playing field for f2p/low spenders who possess genuine skill since more players are less likely to want to spend their loyalty on boosts to gain an advantage.

    Maybe using an analogy might explain it better.

    There is a competition that allows the use of performance enhancing drugs (boosts and pots). Since inception of this competition, some players have been using these drugs to make themselves perform better than they would have without the drugs.

    Then the organizer massively increases the price (and opportunity cost) of the drugs.

    Expectedly, the first group that complains will be the druggies that are reliant on the drugs to sustain their performance.

    But because of the expensive price tag, people will start avoiding these drugs and simply speaking, almost everyone will be clean and it will provide a more level playing field for those who are clean, since they’re not playing against a 45% more powerful version of the opponent.

    Lastly, about the small group of people who continue using the drug despite its high cost. If the reward of the competition is high, it will still be rewarding for them to continue being drugged. But if the reward isn’t decent compared to the cost, it provides a disincentive to continue.

    (Okay, end of analogy)

    What I think the motive behind this move by Kabam is, it’s actually to change the entire war culture of boosts + pot for every fight as it’s been around since forever (which is why we are only getting a rewards boost later this year and not together with the changes).

    Only after everyone has weaned off the “drugs” and settled into their equilibrium war ratings where they should be, then Kabam introduces the new rewards to reward the genuinely skilled players who are at the top (which fits into the narrative of AW being a skill based mode instead of a p2w, which it arguably is now).
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    Dark_Claw1Dark_Claw1 Posts: 139
    I think that analogy works when describing whales who take advantage of their wallets to clear content but not with people who are using them appropriately.

    Whales - steroids
    Competitive players - legal supplements

    I don’t think we should try to guess the secret intentions of Kabam since no one knows what that is. We should look at what is currently happening with the game specifically with Loyalty. Glory store functions well and works. Loyalty store doesn’t.

    Maybe they wipe all loyalty from the game. Give everyone 15k loyalty and then price everything on Loyalty along the same lines as Glory and the loyalty you earn is based on the Tier you’re in with war. I think they could mimic the glory store with the loyalty store.

    There would be people who melt down about about it but they can announce when it will happen a week or 2 before hand and everyone can spend whatever loyalty they have .

    This would probably help free up space in Kabams servers as well
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    Dark_Claw1Dark_Claw1 Posts: 139
    That 1000 loyalty a day from helps becomes a big deal again as well
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    ErcarretErcarret Posts: 2,785 ★★★★★
    The weird thing about all of this is how Kabam decided to present the various changes that are coming to AQ/AW rewards. The new Loyalty store is such an odd thing to push out first. I think it is a great thing at the end of the day, but why introduce it before updating the regular rewards? We can argue all day about the balancing act of pushing higher vs saving Loyalty, but we've landed in a situation where the math just doesn't check out in terms of being rewarded for using Loyalty to push higher.

    In essence, Kabam has reworked Loyalty from a currency used for boosts, health pots and revives into a currency used for its own rewards. That's fine in and of itself - actually, it's tremendous for a lot of people who don't regularly spend their Loyalty on boosts and pots (*waves*) - but for it to be worth spending Loyalty on those in-War resources instead of the new in-store rewards, the actual rewards at the higher tiers of AW need to increase drastically.

    Otherwise, why not simply remove the health pots and boosts altogether? Let Loyalty be a currency used solely for its own rewards and make AW itemless for all. Then you wouldn't have to balance those two uses of Loyalty against each other. I'm not saying I think that's a solution actually preferred by anyone, but I suspect that that is where we'll land until Kabam introduces a reason for people to use Loyalty to push higher in AW again.

    If Kabam had tabled this change until they'd revamped the regular season rewards, I think a lot of the outcry could have been avoided (assuming the rewards bump was good enough). But no, the reward changes are coming out in a weird order. I suspect that it all looks alright to Kabam, who can see the full picture; but it's important for them to understand that none of us can see how it'll eventually pan out - because they haven't explained their full-picture plan yet. They're just parceling it out seemingly out of order and it's not surprising that it's leading to frustration, disappointment, and anger.
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    Dark_Claw1Dark_Claw1 Posts: 139
    They need loyalty potions to keep more people in war. If the only way to get potions is with units a lot of people would drop war so they need to make it work with loyalty.
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    Dark_Claw1Dark_Claw1 Posts: 139
    Just got a look at the new loyalty store. Now it’s even more out of sync!

    I don’t understand how Kabam can think this makes sense….
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    MackeyMackey Posts: 1,586 ★★★★★
    If its been said already then I apologise but all they really need to do is throw in a chunk of loyalty in with the season rewards, scale it with the current ranks of course
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    Dark_Claw1Dark_Claw1 Posts: 139
    Glory Store - AQ potions and rank up items

    Loyalty Store - AW potions and champion shards

    They both run with a cap of 15k or maybe increase to 20k? The prices of the items coincide with each other.

    How much sense does that make?
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    Dark_Claw1Dark_Claw1 Posts: 139
    Glory Store - AQ items and rank up items

    Loyalty Store - AW items and champion shards

    Didn’t want to just think only potions but glory is AQ store and loyalty be a AW store
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,256 ★★★★★

    I think that analogy works when describing whales who take advantage of their wallets to clear content but not with people who are using them appropriately.

    Whales - steroids
    Competitive players - legal supplements

    I don’t think we should try to guess the secret intentions of Kabam since no one knows what that is. We should look at what is currently happening with the game specifically with Loyalty. Glory store functions well and works. Loyalty store doesn’t.

    Maybe they wipe all loyalty from the game. Give everyone 15k loyalty and then price everything on Loyalty along the same lines as Glory and the loyalty you earn is based on the Tier you’re in with war. I think they could mimic the glory store with the loyalty store.

    There would be people who melt down about about it but they can announce when it will happen a week or 2 before hand and everyone can spend whatever loyalty they have .

    This would probably help free up space in Kabams servers as well

    Boosts are boost bro, regardless of who uses them. You can’t differentiate the same items that players use based on who used them.

    What I’m meant was, if everyone doesn’t boost and pot up, the competition doesn’t change, skilled players perform better (as they should), everyone plays their best and it’s more fair to everyone since the field is much more level.

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    Dark_Claw1Dark_Claw1 Posts: 139
    Stay with loyalty please xNig. The thread is about loyalty cost and loyalty awarded. It’s connected to war yes but it’s not a what’s wrong with war thread. It’s what’s wrong with loyalty
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,256 ★★★★★

    Stay with loyalty please xNig. The thread is about loyalty cost and loyalty awarded. It’s connected to war yes but it’s not a what’s wrong with war thread. It’s what’s wrong with loyalty

    Yeah sure. Apologies for digressing.

    Given that now there’s a store, Kabam will be relatively more hesitant to increase loyalty as it can be directly translated to rewards, which will affect balance.
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    Dark_Claw1Dark_Claw1 Posts: 139
    That could be true but they wouldn’t put the rewards in there if they didn’t want people to buy them. I hope they put some thought into it. Mimic the glory store makes a lot of sense to me. It would be easy to adjust as the game expands as well.
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,256 ★★★★★

    That could be true but they wouldn’t put the rewards in there if they didn’t want people to buy them. I hope they put some thought into it. Mimic the glory store makes a lot of sense to me. It would be easy to adjust as the game expands as well.

    But to do that, they’ll need to flush all the saved loyalty out of the system first.

    Imagine starting the glory store when people have hundreds of thousands of glory saved up.
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    Dark_Claw1Dark_Claw1 Posts: 139
    They could give a 2 week heads up for them to spend their Loyalty. Once they flush it and gift everyone a full 15k to start, I think people would very pleased with the changes. People who understand it would be anyway.

    People would be like…. Thank you Kabam for making this game better and I appreciate the heads up so I could use my loyalty and how generous to gift us all a a new loyalty store with a maxed cap!

    I get that their are people who just don’t have the capacity to understand what that change would do for them and the game but why would anyone make decisions on those peoples thoughts?

    Or maybe Kabam figures out a way for players to gain loyalty at a much higher rate. If those high priced items are going to have a replenishment rate than loyalty rewards will have to be giant! Maybe 5-10mm a season added into the overall rewards tiered might work
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