How about 10k for paragon? It seems like a fitting price for players with the definitive end game title. Besides most paragon players have developed their 6 star rosters to the point where they probably need to target specific champs rather than opening basics and hoping for something new
…I would like it if you guys make 6*s warrant more iso and gold…spending 12.5k or even 10k to dupe someone you don’t want is bad enough and then to get the same amount of iso and gold as a 4* is like kicking someone while they’re down… Literally can’t get more constructive than this
How about 10k for paragon? It seems like a fitting price for players with the definitive end game title. Besides most paragon players have developed their 6 star rosters to the point where they probably need to target specific champs rather than opening basics and hoping for something new
Totally agreed. At the moment, the only really good thing a paragon title has, is the daily crystal. No special quests, no extra things to do to get exclusive stuff, no better champion crystals, the sigil is the same, the test of... is still a joke, the monthly calendar is...well...
How about 10k for paragon? It seems like a fitting price for players with the definitive end game title. Besides most paragon players have developed their 6 star rosters to the point where they probably need to target specific champs rather than opening basics and hoping for something new
Totally agreed. At the moment, the only really good thing a paragon title has, is the daily crystal. No special quests, no extra things to do to get exclusive stuff, no better champion crystals, the sigil is the same, the test of... is still a joke, the monthly calendar is...well...
EOP extra rewards I'd say makes paragon really enticing currently
Do you guys sit around and think how can we take a good thing and screw it up! 4/5 star Crystal are the same cost as dual ones, the 6/5 star feature same cost. But then you decide it’s a good idea to charge more for the thing players have been asking for for months. With all the game problems and the clown show of BG I would have thought your team would like to have at least one win this year. I’d love to hear the rational response why these are more valuable to players. Seriously what show you guys are doing.
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
They shouldn’t cost more because the odds for targeting champions isn’t different. Probably need some @DNA3000 math on this but I would bet money that the odds to pull god-tier champions from the basic to the duel crystals won’t change much.
They aren't, but that's not why the dual class crystal costs more. They cost more because they have a smaller pool, and thus a higher chance of pulling a specific champion within that pool.
If what you want is "any god tier champ" then the basic crystal is going to probably be your best bet. But who wants "any god tier champ?" Mostly people who don't have a significant 6* roster. Those are the people we tend to recommend to open basics - because they don't need a specific champ, they need *any* useful champ, and for them, more pulls is better.
But once you get past that point, you don't necessarily want just any god tier champ. First of all, you might have some already. Doom is great, until you have him. Then awakening him with a second pull is good, but maybe not as good as getting a new god tier champ. And then getting sigs on him is okay, if you want the prestige, but certainly not as good as pulling a brand new Hercules, or awakening that Archangel.
Targeting matters to players who actually want or need to target. I mostly open featured 6* crystals over basics, because they are almost *always* better for me. I have most of the 6* champs. I need the rest, or a few awakened. A basic crystal is highly likely to just be adding sigs on top of a champ I already have and either don't need awakened or already have awakened. Featured crystals are going to be at least 25% new, and probably more, and if a particularly bad one comes around, I can always skip it and save up for the next one. That level of targeting is *more* than worth 15k shards (I do buy the 13k Sigil version, but you can only get one every two weeks, and I'm buying way more than that).
Targeting isn't valuable to everyone. But to the players who need it, targeting is worth a lot. How much? Certainly more than 10k. Almost certainly less than 15k, because the featured crystal offers a targeted selection of 24 champs in the pool: a dual crystal has a larger pool than that, and thus a more diluted targeting ability. A dual class crystal sits approximately at the geometric mean between the basic and the featured crystal in terms of pool size, so I would expect the cost to sit in the vicinity of the geometric mean between the basic and featured costs, or about 12250 shards (why not the arithmetic mean, or just simple averages? Because the perception for odds tends to be proportional half the options is twice as good).
Anything between 12k and 13k probably would have been fine. You might have wanted to avoid making it identical to the Sigil discount (13k) but that isn't essential. But the crystal is most definitely more valuable than a basic and less valuable than a featured when it comes to targeting. For people not targeting, the crystal is worth the same as a basic. But the value of dual class crystals is being set relative to their value as a method of targeting.
I just don't understand the need to create these boundaries of acquiring champs when that's exactly the thing that entices people most.
Because having is not so pleasing a thing after all as wanting.
This is the basis of all chase games. Everyone likes having the champs, so why not just make it easy for everyone to get everything they want? Because then they have everything they want, and they quit to go find a game that let's them chase something else instead. The only thing people hate more than chasing is having. They leave games where they have, and gravitate to games where they want. It doesn't matter what we say. It only matters what we do. We say we want an easier chase. But we exterminate any game that gives it to us.
This sets up a world where they change pricing based on progression. Why couldn’t paragon start to get dual class crystals for 11,000 one day? That’s where I think it’s heading.
Look, I’m bummed out but I also understand. The value of a crystal isn’t the champ itself, but what that champ means for your roster. I’ve been sitting on an AG since February and if Hercules comes out of a crystals it’s gonna be lit. I’m also gonna hit paragon this month and start buying all the AGs I can every 6 weeks (5-6 total) and I’ll have all I need for cyber weekend.
The ability to weed out mutant and skill champs (my roster is loaded there) is value. The ability to get a champ and use a saved AG is value (Herc, Hype and Corvus would qualify).
This also has value for a third group - people trying to match a champ to a t5cc for Thronebreaker. My mini account has BWCV and needs to do 6.3 and 6.4 to become TB. If I didn’t have claire, I’d have a ton of mystic t5cc and no one but iron fist and unduped voodoo to use it on. Yikes.
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
All I read from this was "We set a bad precedent and instead of communicating this sooner we wanted to do a surprise drop hoping you wouldn't notice!" If you knew it was a bad precedent why not admit it instead of breaking "randomly" so it looks like you're against the players?
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
I feel like Adam Sandler in the Wedding Singer. Once again, something that could’ve been brought to my attention yesterday!
These are perfectly reasonable thoughts that should’ve been communicated in dev diaries or on the forums anytime in the past year when someone pushed for these crystals. Set expectations and you won’t have as many frustrated or disappointed people. I literally don’t remember a word of regret from Kabam or any thought expressed that 5-star dual classes were too generous two years ago.
Also, the timing is a bit weird for this, taking $30 from paying players for the resort then right as the last month opens up…ta da!
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
All I read from this was "We set a bad precedent and instead of communicating this sooner we wanted to do a surprise drop hoping you wouldn't notice!" If you knew it was a bad precedent why not admit it instead of breaking "randomly" so it looks like you're against the players?
Let me see if I get this straight. You're saying that at some point in the past, you feel Kabam should have made an announcement saying they decided that the price of 5* dual class crystals was set too low, but they were not going to change them, but in the future 6* dual class crystals might have a different cost than that, but they had no idea when they might be coming out.
Why you aren't in charge of corporate messaging somewhere I have no idea.
Also, bonus points for putting the word "randomly" in quotes as an excuse to use it as its own antonym. That's like SSR tier corporate messaging.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
First of Actually kudos for the transparency and the comms, highly appreciated.
I understand the point that you have made and have no real problem with that. Specially if this will pave way for more 'targeted crystals' i.e. "wish crystals" in the future.
My only real question is though, 4 stars are well out of the meta so 2k is fine. 5 stars are still relevant but slowly losing this specially once 6R5s / 6R4s becomes the norm. So will this mean crystal shards cost for this will decrease in them?
Will there finally also be a difference in ISO & gold when duping 4 stars / 5 stars / 6 stars? Since now we now have such precedence in difference of 'value' each crystal gives? Even if its just in a pipeline / train of thought.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
Maybe I'm misinterpreting what you're saying here, but how is a say 6* Herc pulled from a cosmic/tech 6* dual class crystal a better champ than a 6* Herc pulled from a basic 6* crystal? What makes him 2.5k 6* shards better?
The champs are the same no matter which particular crystal they are pulled from.
So since 6* Doom from a Cav crystal is the same as 6* Doom pulled from a 6* dual class crystal, Cav crystals are worth the same as 6* dual crystals.
6* Herc is 6* Herc. But you aren't buying 6* Herc. You're buying crystals. None of them have a guaranteed chance for 6* Herc. However, there's a three times higher chance to pull 6* Herrc from a Cosmic/Tech dual class 6* crystal than a 6* Basic crystal. If you're specifically aiming for him, the dual class crystal has a far greater chance to pull him. A featured crystal with only 24 champs that contained him would have an even greater chance to pull him. That's why people open featured crystals. They are aiming for something, or a few somethings, and the odds of getting what they are aiming at is vastly higher than for basics.
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
All I read from this was "We set a bad precedent and instead of communicating this sooner we wanted to do a surprise drop hoping you wouldn't notice!" If you knew it was a bad precedent why not admit it instead of breaking "randomly" so it looks like you're against the players?
Let me see if I get this straight. You're saying that at some point in the past, you feel Kabam should have made an announcement saying they decided that the price of 5* dual class crystals was set too low, but they were not going to change them, but in the future 6* dual class crystals might have a different cost than that, but they had no idea when they might be coming out.
Why you aren't in charge of corporate messaging somewhere I have no idea.
Also, bonus points for putting the word "randomly" in quotes as an excuse to use it as its own antonym. That's like SSR tier corporate messaging.
I think this reply is a bit of a low blow. There’s nothing wrong with the point he’s making at all. I think he’s obviously saying that Kabam could have communicated sooner ie part of the patch notes for this month. Or what would be really is good a monthly update video on what’s coming to the contest in the next month. They can use that as an opportunity to prime us that dual crystals are coming this month, the price is different to other classes and here’s why. He clearly wasn’t suggesting they put a comment out an unrelated point in the past when 6* dual crystals weren’t being released.
Kabams communication system for large parts of the game is totally reactive after they just release stuff into the live game. We get info blind, it’s often emotive and there’s a really easy solution with some communication that happens sooner.
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
All I read from this was "We set a bad precedent and instead of communicating this sooner we wanted to do a surprise drop hoping you wouldn't notice!" If you knew it was a bad precedent why not admit it instead of breaking "randomly" so it looks like you're against the players?
Let me see if I get this straight. You're saying that at some point in the past, you feel Kabam should have made an announcement saying they decided that the price of 5* dual class crystals was set too low, but they were not going to change them, but in the future 6* dual class crystals might have a different cost than that, but they had no idea when they might be coming out.
Why you aren't in charge of corporate messaging somewhere I have no idea.
Also, bonus points for putting the word "randomly" in quotes as an excuse to use it as its own antonym. That's like SSR tier corporate messaging.
You’re being unfair, because dual class 6-star crystals have been brought up on this forum numerous times by me alone.
No one is asking for an announcement, but there were ample opportunities to acknowledge questions from users and respond.
Say what you want about Kabam, the one good thing so far they have done this week is releasing these crystals before AW rewards and not after they came out, lol
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
All I read from this was "We set a bad precedent and instead of communicating this sooner we wanted to do a surprise drop hoping you wouldn't notice!" If you knew it was a bad precedent why not admit it instead of breaking "randomly" so it looks like you're against the players?
Let me see if I get this straight. You're saying that at some point in the past, you feel Kabam should have made an announcement saying they decided that the price of 5* dual class crystals was set too low, but they were not going to change them, but in the future 6* dual class crystals might have a different cost than that, but they had no idea when they might be coming out.
Why you aren't in charge of corporate messaging somewhere I have no idea.
Also, bonus points for putting the word "randomly" in quotes as an excuse to use it as its own antonym. That's like SSR tier corporate messaging.
Damn you got me. Retiring from the game. Gg.
Clearly my point was that all they had to do was communicate this sooner. They could've made an announcement sayings "6* Dual Crystals on the way but we will be charging extra as we believe having them valued the same is unbalanced" or literally anything more than what they did. You can't tell me they didn't expect this to immediately become a controversial topic the minute it was released.
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
All I read from this was "We set a bad precedent and instead of communicating this sooner we wanted to do a surprise drop hoping you wouldn't notice!" If you knew it was a bad precedent why not admit it instead of breaking "randomly" so it looks like you're against the players?
Let me see if I get this straight. You're saying that at some point in the past, you feel Kabam should have made an announcement saying they decided that the price of 5* dual class crystals was set too low, but they were not going to change them, but in the future 6* dual class crystals might have a different cost than that, but they had no idea when they might be coming out.
Why you aren't in charge of corporate messaging somewhere I have no idea.
Also, bonus points for putting the word "randomly" in quotes as an excuse to use it as its own antonym. That's like SSR tier corporate messaging.
Damn you got me. Retiring from the game. Gg.
Clearly my point was that all they had to do was communicate this sooner. They could've made an announcement sayings "6* Dual Crystals on the way but we will be charging extra as we believe having them valued the same is unbalanced" or literally anything more than what they did. You can't tell me they didn't expect this to immediately become a controversial topic the minute it was released.
If your point was that all they had to do was communicate this sooner, why did you choose to communicate that thought by completely mischaracterizing what was actually said? How does that communicate "if only you did this sooner." All it looks like is if only they said something sooner, it would give you more time to invent more bad intentions on their part.
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
They shouldn’t cost more because the odds for targeting champions isn’t different. Probably need some @DNA3000 math on this but I would bet money that the odds to pull god-tier champions from the basic to the duel crystals won’t change much.
They aren't, but that's not why the dual class crystal costs more. They cost more because they have a smaller pool, and thus a higher chance of pulling a specific champion within that pool.
If what you want is "any god tier champ" then the basic crystal is going to probably be your best bet. But who wants "any god tier champ?" Mostly people who don't have a significant 6* roster. Those are the people we tend to recommend to open basics - because they don't need a specific champ, they need *any* useful champ, and for them, more pulls is better.
But once you get past that point, you don't necessarily want just any god tier champ. First of all, you might have some already. Doom is great, until you have him. Then awakening him with a second pull is good, but maybe not as good as getting a new god tier champ. And then getting sigs on him is okay, if you want the prestige, but certainly not as good as pulling a brand new Hercules, or awakening that Archangel.
Targeting matters to players who actually want or need to target. I mostly open featured 6* crystals over basics, because they are almost *always* better for me. I have most of the 6* champs. I need the rest, or a few awakened. A basic crystal is highly likely to just be adding sigs on top of a champ I already have and either don't need awakened or already have awakened. Featured crystals are going to be at least 25% new, and probably more, and if a particularly bad one comes around, I can always skip it and save up for the next one. That level of targeting is *more* than worth 15k shards (I do buy the 13k Sigil version, but you can only get one every two weeks, and I'm buying way more than that).
Targeting isn't valuable to everyone. But to the players who need it, targeting is worth a lot. How much? Certainly more than 10k. Almost certainly less than 15k, because the featured crystal offers a targeted selection of 24 champs in the pool: a dual crystal has a larger pool than that, and thus a more diluted targeting ability. A dual class crystal sits approximately at the geometric mean between the basic and the featured crystal in terms of pool size, so I would expect the cost to sit in the vicinity of the geometric mean between the basic and featured costs, or about 12250 shards (why not the arithmetic mean, or just simple averages? Because the perception for odds tends to be proportional half the options is twice as good).
Anything between 12k and 13k probably would have been fine. You might have wanted to avoid making it identical to the Sigil discount (13k) but that isn't essential. But the crystal is most definitely more valuable than a basic and less valuable than a featured when it comes to targeting. For people not targeting, the crystal is worth the same as a basic. But the value of dual class crystals is being set relative to their value as a method of targeting.
So if the odds are similar then what makes a duel crystal have to be more then a basic? Targeting? It’s more of an illusion of targeting then actually targeting. We can target 2 specifics of iso but we can’t target 1/70 champion from the duel crystals. So ultimately we spend more on shards for the illusion of targeting. Where as 1/24 on the feature DOES sound better for targeting specific champions. Granted I won’t see one justifying point for the increased cost because I strongly see it as not needed, so perhaps you have a valid point just not for me.
Let me see if I get this straight. You're saying that at some point in the past, you feel Kabam should have made an announcement saying they decided that the price of 5* dual class crystals was set too low, but they were not going to change them, but in the future 6* dual class crystals might have a different cost than that, but they had no idea when they might be coming out.
Why you aren't in charge of corporate messaging somewhere I have no idea.
Also, bonus points for putting the word "randomly" in quotes as an excuse to use it as its own antonym. That's like SSR tier corporate messaging.
I think you missed his point. I think he meant that Kabam could have responded to any of the countless posts in the last year about dual class 6* or wish crystals with something like this:
“Greetings summoners. We know wish crystals are something everyone is interested in but we still don’t have a timeline for implementing them. When we have more info we’ll share it but right now there is no timeline to share so we aren’t likely to see them any time soon.
What you are likely to see at some point are dual class 6* crystals available for shards similar to 4* and 5* dual class crystals with one difference. There will be a slight cost increase for 6* dual class crystals over 6* basics. This if for two reasons. First, 6* are the endgame champs and we feel like a slight premium to target endgame champs is warranted. We honestly made a mistake when we rolled out 5+ dual class crystals for the same price as a basic. The dual class crystals significantly increase your odds of pulling a given champ so there is some added value that we did not reflect in the shard cost. We are addressing that with the 6* dual crystals and expect them to cost somewhere between a 6* basic and a 6* featured to reflect their value. We don’t have a timeline for introducing these yet either but we wanted to set expectations now so you aren’t surprised when you see the added cost when they do arrive”
That would have gone a very long way towards addressing this backlash. On the same note, something like this could have been posted today as an announcement post instead of just a response to a thread that Kabam appears to be burying on the forums based on it showing up well down the list already even though it’s getting new posts.
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
They shouldn’t cost more because the odds for targeting champions isn’t different. Probably need some @DNA3000 math on this but I would bet money that the odds to pull god-tier champions from the basic to the duel crystals won’t change much.
They aren't, but that's not why the dual class crystal costs more. They cost more because they have a smaller pool, and thus a higher chance of pulling a specific champion within that pool.
If what you want is "any god tier champ" then the basic crystal is going to probably be your best bet. But who wants "any god tier champ?" Mostly people who don't have a significant 6* roster. Those are the people we tend to recommend to open basics - because they don't need a specific champ, they need *any* useful champ, and for them, more pulls is better.
But once you get past that point, you don't necessarily want just any god tier champ. First of all, you might have some already. Doom is great, until you have him. Then awakening him with a second pull is good, but maybe not as good as getting a new god tier champ. And then getting sigs on him is okay, if you want the prestige, but certainly not as good as pulling a brand new Hercules, or awakening that Archangel.
Targeting matters to players who actually want or need to target. I mostly open featured 6* crystals over basics, because they are almost *always* better for me. I have most of the 6* champs. I need the rest, or a few awakened. A basic crystal is highly likely to just be adding sigs on top of a champ I already have and either don't need awakened or already have awakened. Featured crystals are going to be at least 25% new, and probably more, and if a particularly bad one comes around, I can always skip it and save up for the next one. That level of targeting is *more* than worth 15k shards (I do buy the 13k Sigil version, but you can only get one every two weeks, and I'm buying way more than that).
Targeting isn't valuable to everyone. But to the players who need it, targeting is worth a lot. How much? Certainly more than 10k. Almost certainly less than 15k, because the featured crystal offers a targeted selection of 24 champs in the pool: a dual crystal has a larger pool than that, and thus a more diluted targeting ability. A dual class crystal sits approximately at the geometric mean between the basic and the featured crystal in terms of pool size, so I would expect the cost to sit in the vicinity of the geometric mean between the basic and featured costs, or about 12250 shards (why not the arithmetic mean, or just simple averages? Because the perception for odds tends to be proportional half the options is twice as good).
Anything between 12k and 13k probably would have been fine. You might have wanted to avoid making it identical to the Sigil discount (13k) but that isn't essential. But the crystal is most definitely more valuable than a basic and less valuable than a featured when it comes to targeting. For people not targeting, the crystal is worth the same as a basic. But the value of dual class crystals is being set relative to their value as a method of targeting.
So if the odds are similar then what makes a duel crystal have to be more then a basic? Targeting? It’s more of an illusion of targeting then actually targeting. We can target 2 specifics of iso but we can’t target 1/70 champion from the duel crystals. So ultimately we spend more on shards for the illusion of targeting. Where as 1/24 on the feature DOES sound better for targeting specific champions. Granted I won’t see one justifying point for the increased cost because I strongly see it as not needed, so perhaps you have a valid point just not for me.
Very few people are doing it for one champ.
I have these: Nick, KP, Apoc, Wags, Prof X (all awakened) plus Falcon and Masacre. Most of these are objectively strong pulls who would do almost nothing for me, though I’d be happy to awaken Falcon or my r2 AA.
I don’t have these: Corvus, Hype, Herc, Omega Sentinel, Warlock, Ultron, G99. These are objectively strong pulls who would be fantastic for me.
As 6-star AGs proliferate through the loyalty store, holiday deals and content, they also play a role in prioritizing selections.
I’m very disappointed at the outcome, but I’m also going to finish 7.2, 7.3 (exploration for both to finish act 7) and 8.1 (completion only) this month. I’ll use those nexuses, the summer event and maybe EOP to pad these numbers. In the mean time, I’ll briefly hold shards and make an informed decision about whether it’s worth the upcharge.
How about 10k for paragon? It seems like a fitting price for players with the definitive end game title. Besides most paragon players have developed their 6 star rosters to the point where they probably need to target specific champs rather than opening basics and hoping for something new
Totally agreed. At the moment, the only really good thing a paragon title has, is the daily crystal. No special quests, no extra things to do to get exclusive stuff, no better champion crystals, the sigil is the same, the test of... is still a joke, the monthly calendar is...well...
EOP extra rewards I'd say makes paragon really enticing currently
Yes, currently, I was going to mention that in my original post, but with the speed this game is growing, I don't think that we re gonna still be wowed by two r4 crystals instead of one in a few months.
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
They shouldn’t cost more because the odds for targeting champions isn’t different. Probably need some @DNA3000 math on this but I would bet money that the odds to pull god-tier champions from the basic to the duel crystals won’t change much.
They aren't, but that's not why the dual class crystal costs more. They cost more because they have a smaller pool, and thus a higher chance of pulling a specific champion within that pool.
If what you want is "any god tier champ" then the basic crystal is going to probably be your best bet. But who wants "any god tier champ?" Mostly people who don't have a significant 6* roster. Those are the people we tend to recommend to open basics - because they don't need a specific champ, they need *any* useful champ, and for them, more pulls is better.
But once you get past that point, you don't necessarily want just any god tier champ. First of all, you might have some already. Doom is great, until you have him. Then awakening him with a second pull is good, but maybe not as good as getting a new god tier champ. And then getting sigs on him is okay, if you want the prestige, but certainly not as good as pulling a brand new Hercules, or awakening that Archangel.
Targeting matters to players who actually want or need to target. I mostly open featured 6* crystals over basics, because they are almost *always* better for me. I have most of the 6* champs. I need the rest, or a few awakened. A basic crystal is highly likely to just be adding sigs on top of a champ I already have and either don't need awakened or already have awakened. Featured crystals are going to be at least 25% new, and probably more, and if a particularly bad one comes around, I can always skip it and save up for the next one. That level of targeting is *more* than worth 15k shards (I do buy the 13k Sigil version, but you can only get one every two weeks, and I'm buying way more than that).
Targeting isn't valuable to everyone. But to the players who need it, targeting is worth a lot. How much? Certainly more than 10k. Almost certainly less than 15k, because the featured crystal offers a targeted selection of 24 champs in the pool: a dual crystal has a larger pool than that, and thus a more diluted targeting ability. A dual class crystal sits approximately at the geometric mean between the basic and the featured crystal in terms of pool size, so I would expect the cost to sit in the vicinity of the geometric mean between the basic and featured costs, or about 12250 shards (why not the arithmetic mean, or just simple averages? Because the perception for odds tends to be proportional half the options is twice as good).
Anything between 12k and 13k probably would have been fine. You might have wanted to avoid making it identical to the Sigil discount (13k) but that isn't essential. But the crystal is most definitely more valuable than a basic and less valuable than a featured when it comes to targeting. For people not targeting, the crystal is worth the same as a basic. But the value of dual class crystals is being set relative to their value as a method of targeting.
So if the odds are similar then what makes a duel crystal have to be more then a basic? Targeting? It’s more of an illusion of targeting then actually targeting. We can target 2 specifics of iso but we can’t target 1/70 champion from the duel crystals. So ultimately we spend more on shards for the illusion of targeting. Where as 1/24 on the feature DOES sound better for targeting specific champions. Granted I won’t see one justifying point for the increased cost because I strongly see it as not needed, so perhaps you have a valid point just not for me.
Very few people are doing it for one champ.
I have these: Nick, KP, Apoc, Wags, Prof X (all awakened) plus Falcon and Masacre. Most of these are objectively strong pulls who would do almost nothing for me, though I’d be happy to awaken Falcon or my r2 AA.
I don’t have these: Corvus, Hype, Herc, Omega Sentinel, Warlock, Ultron, G99. These are objectively strong pulls who would be fantastic for me.
As 6-star AGs proliferate through the loyalty store, holiday deals and content, they also play a role in prioritizing selections.
I’m very disappointed at the outcome, but I’m also going to finish 7.2, 7.3 (exploration for both to finish act 7) and 8.1 (completion only) this month. I’ll use those nexuses, the summer event and maybe EOP to pad these numbers. In the mean time, I’ll briefly hold shards and make an informed decision about whether it’s worth the upcharge.
Correct, most people are seeking more then one champion and typically have a list of “misses” they are happy with. I pegged todays crystal at 18% chance to get something I want. Feature crystals are a 24% chance and basics (using a youtubers tier list) have a 28% chance to pull any one of their two top tiers worth of champions (73/254). So at 18% for the duel crystal it’s significantly inferior to the other two but costs between them. Like I said before, people will open them out of necessity not because it’s a good deal.
Edit: 18% is what suits my roster and opinion. Others could be a bit higher or even lower.
We need new people working at kabam. Feels like everything released lately has been the opposite of pro-player changes.
I know what you're trying to say, but from my perspective, what we're seeing is "Dual Class 6-Star Crystals are not pro-player". There is not rule here saying that you now have to stop buying the 10k Crystals and only buy the Class crystals.
They might be a bit different than other classes as they were introduced, but those Champs weren't at the top of the food chain, and we're not ready to make them available for the exact same price as 6-stars yet.
I’m honestly struggling to understand the reasoning here. We aren’t at all saying that 6 star dual crystals are not pro player. We think releasing these is very pro player. But we’re struggling to see the reasoning for making them more expensive. We know we don’t have to stop buying basics, but what makes a 6 star dual more valuable than a basic, and why is that reason not present in the 5 star rarity?
If that’s what miike was trying to say I missed that as well. I’m happy for duel crystals but it’s not pro-player to release them at an increased cost. Hopefully that clears up the previous comments I made.
I would ask that you ask yourselves that question... What makes the Dual Class more valuable than a Basic, and why SHOULDN'T it be more?
I get the precedent set by the 5-Star and 4-Star crystals, but it was exactly that precedent that kept us from launching these earlier. We know players wanted them; we weren't ready to make more specific 6-Stars available for that same cost, but also knew that when we added them for 5-Stars, we set that precedent. It was either break the precedent or keep waiting.
For complete transparency, we learned pretty quickly after the release of the 5-Star Dual that we shouldn't have made them the same price, but didn't want to change them after the fact. We did the same for 4-Stars, but are less concerned with those. We decided the best case was to leave them as is but didn't want to repeat that again.
They shouldn’t cost more because the odds for targeting champions isn’t different. Probably need some @DNA3000 math on this but I would bet money that the odds to pull god-tier champions from the basic to the duel crystals won’t change much.
They aren't, but that's not why the dual class crystal costs more. They cost more because they have a smaller pool, and thus a higher chance of pulling a specific champion within that pool.
If what you want is "any god tier champ" then the basic crystal is going to probably be your best bet. But who wants "any god tier champ?" Mostly people who don't have a significant 6* roster. Those are the people we tend to recommend to open basics - because they don't need a specific champ, they need *any* useful champ, and for them, more pulls is better.
But once you get past that point, you don't necessarily want just any god tier champ. First of all, you might have some already. Doom is great, until you have him. Then awakening him with a second pull is good, but maybe not as good as getting a new god tier champ. And then getting sigs on him is okay, if you want the prestige, but certainly not as good as pulling a brand new Hercules, or awakening that Archangel.
Targeting matters to players who actually want or need to target. I mostly open featured 6* crystals over basics, because they are almost *always* better for me. I have most of the 6* champs. I need the rest, or a few awakened. A basic crystal is highly likely to just be adding sigs on top of a champ I already have and either don't need awakened or already have awakened. Featured crystals are going to be at least 25% new, and probably more, and if a particularly bad one comes around, I can always skip it and save up for the next one. That level of targeting is *more* than worth 15k shards (I do buy the 13k Sigil version, but you can only get one every two weeks, and I'm buying way more than that).
Targeting isn't valuable to everyone. But to the players who need it, targeting is worth a lot. How much? Certainly more than 10k. Almost certainly less than 15k, because the featured crystal offers a targeted selection of 24 champs in the pool: a dual crystal has a larger pool than that, and thus a more diluted targeting ability. A dual class crystal sits approximately at the geometric mean between the basic and the featured crystal in terms of pool size, so I would expect the cost to sit in the vicinity of the geometric mean between the basic and featured costs, or about 12250 shards (why not the arithmetic mean, or just simple averages? Because the perception for odds tends to be proportional half the options is twice as good).
Anything between 12k and 13k probably would have been fine. You might have wanted to avoid making it identical to the Sigil discount (13k) but that isn't essential. But the crystal is most definitely more valuable than a basic and less valuable than a featured when it comes to targeting. For people not targeting, the crystal is worth the same as a basic. But the value of dual class crystals is being set relative to their value as a method of targeting.
It seems like you’re making an assumption that the value of a Basic crystal is SUPPOSED to degrade over time. Why is that? The pool of champs is growing, and as you mentioned above, for advancing players, the pool of good pulls shrinks as your roster gets more advanced. So my 10k shards are effectively worth less than they were 2 years ago when all I was hoping for was “any good champ.” And then your solution of switching over to Featured Crystals is just made out to be the only solution and just how things are supposed to work. Again, why? I don’t understand why I wouldn’t get more choice in my pulls as I advance further in this game and the percentage of good pulls keeps shrinking for me. Opening a 6-star crystal used to be a big exciting thing. Now, I barely care unless I’m opening 3+ at a time.
5-star dual crystals were only available to Uncollected players and above upon release. And that progression requirement made sense to me. The crystals were targeted at players that had already experienced the basic crystal lose value for their account. So a new crystal could help add some value back with a little bit of choice. What’s wrong with that? Why was it a mistake to release 5-star dual crystals at 10k shards? Things were already starting to shift towards to 6-stars anyway. Was it a mistake because Kabam just wanted to gouge the players for more of their shards? As far as I’m concerned, 5-star dual crystals were a huge success. They generated excitement again for 5-star openings. 6-star dual crystals will not be doing the same thing for me at all. Because a) I probably won’t be buying any, and b) if I do buy any, I’ll be annoyed that they cost more
Just another epic fail in a horrible month for Kabam, IMO.
Paying more than 10k shards for a basic 6* crystal is not for me, so I'll pass. I'm not sure who will buy these on purpose, honestly.
When you run the numbers and see that nobody wants these and decide to walk it back, do you mind adding shards when we dup a 6* too please and thank you.
Comments
I just don't understand the need to create these boundaries of acquiring champs when that's exactly the thing that entices people most.
Let them go wild with it. Making it more expensive just ticks people off and makes an otherwise awesome addition look like poop.
Literally can’t get more constructive than this
If what you want is "any god tier champ" then the basic crystal is going to probably be your best bet. But who wants "any god tier champ?" Mostly people who don't have a significant 6* roster. Those are the people we tend to recommend to open basics - because they don't need a specific champ, they need *any* useful champ, and for them, more pulls is better.
But once you get past that point, you don't necessarily want just any god tier champ. First of all, you might have some already. Doom is great, until you have him. Then awakening him with a second pull is good, but maybe not as good as getting a new god tier champ. And then getting sigs on him is okay, if you want the prestige, but certainly not as good as pulling a brand new Hercules, or awakening that Archangel.
Targeting matters to players who actually want or need to target. I mostly open featured 6* crystals over basics, because they are almost *always* better for me. I have most of the 6* champs. I need the rest, or a few awakened. A basic crystal is highly likely to just be adding sigs on top of a champ I already have and either don't need awakened or already have awakened. Featured crystals are going to be at least 25% new, and probably more, and if a particularly bad one comes around, I can always skip it and save up for the next one. That level of targeting is *more* than worth 15k shards (I do buy the 13k Sigil version, but you can only get one every two weeks, and I'm buying way more than that).
Targeting isn't valuable to everyone. But to the players who need it, targeting is worth a lot. How much? Certainly more than 10k. Almost certainly less than 15k, because the featured crystal offers a targeted selection of 24 champs in the pool: a dual crystal has a larger pool than that, and thus a more diluted targeting ability. A dual class crystal sits approximately at the geometric mean between the basic and the featured crystal in terms of pool size, so I would expect the cost to sit in the vicinity of the geometric mean between the basic and featured costs, or about 12250 shards (why not the arithmetic mean, or just simple averages? Because the perception for odds tends to be proportional half the options is twice as good).
Anything between 12k and 13k probably would have been fine. You might have wanted to avoid making it identical to the Sigil discount (13k) but that isn't essential. But the crystal is most definitely more valuable than a basic and less valuable than a featured when it comes to targeting. For people not targeting, the crystal is worth the same as a basic. But the value of dual class crystals is being set relative to their value as a method of targeting.
This is the basis of all chase games. Everyone likes having the champs, so why not just make it easy for everyone to get everything they want? Because then they have everything they want, and they quit to go find a game that let's them chase something else instead. The only thing people hate more than chasing is having. They leave games where they have, and gravitate to games where they want. It doesn't matter what we say. It only matters what we do. We say we want an easier chase. But we exterminate any game that gives it to us.
Look, I’m bummed out but I also understand. The value of a crystal isn’t the champ itself, but what that champ means for your roster. I’ve been sitting on an AG since February and if Hercules comes out of a crystals it’s gonna be lit. I’m also gonna hit paragon this month and start buying all the AGs I can every 6 weeks (5-6 total) and I’ll have all I need for cyber weekend.
The ability to weed out mutant and skill champs (my roster is loaded there) is value. The ability to get a champ and use a saved AG is value (Herc, Hype and Corvus would qualify).
This also has value for a third group - people trying to match a champ to a t5cc for Thronebreaker. My mini account has BWCV and needs to do 6.3 and 6.4 to become TB. If I didn’t have claire, I’d have a ton of mystic t5cc and no one but iron fist and unduped voodoo to use it on. Yikes.
These are perfectly reasonable thoughts that should’ve been communicated in dev diaries or on the forums anytime in the past year when someone pushed for these crystals. Set expectations and you won’t have as many frustrated or disappointed people. I literally don’t remember a word of regret from Kabam or any thought expressed that 5-star dual classes were too generous two years ago.
Also, the timing is a bit weird for this, taking $30 from paying players for the resort then right as the last month opens up…ta da!
Why you aren't in charge of corporate messaging somewhere I have no idea.
Also, bonus points for putting the word "randomly" in quotes as an excuse to use it as its own antonym. That's like SSR tier corporate messaging.
I understand the point that you have made and have no real problem with that. Specially if this will pave way for more 'targeted crystals' i.e. "wish crystals" in the future.
My only real question is though, 4 stars are well out of the meta so 2k is fine. 5 stars are still relevant but slowly losing this specially once 6R5s / 6R4s becomes the norm. So will this mean crystal shards cost for this will decrease in them?
Will there finally also be a difference in ISO & gold when duping 4 stars / 5 stars / 6 stars? Since now we now have such precedence in difference of 'value' each crystal gives? Even if its just in a pipeline / train of thought.
thanks
6* Herc is 6* Herc. But you aren't buying 6* Herc. You're buying crystals. None of them have a guaranteed chance for 6* Herc. However, there's a three times higher chance to pull 6* Herrc from a Cosmic/Tech dual class 6* crystal than a 6* Basic crystal. If you're specifically aiming for him, the dual class crystal has a far greater chance to pull him. A featured crystal with only 24 champs that contained him would have an even greater chance to pull him. That's why people open featured crystals. They are aiming for something, or a few somethings, and the odds of getting what they are aiming at is vastly higher than for basics.
Kabams communication system for large parts of the game is totally reactive after they just release stuff into the live game. We get info blind, it’s often emotive and there’s a really easy solution with some communication that happens sooner.
No one is asking for an announcement, but there were ample opportunities to acknowledge questions from users and respond.
All I read from this was "We set a bad precedent and instead of communicating this sooner we wanted to do a surprise drop hoping you wouldn't notice!"
No, I think it actually errs a bit on the conservative side. I think he is obviously saying what he is obviously saying. As am I.
Clearly my point was that all they had to do was communicate this sooner. They could've made an announcement sayings "6* Dual Crystals on the way but we will be charging extra as we believe having them valued the same is unbalanced" or literally anything more than what they did. You can't tell me they didn't expect this to immediately become a controversial topic the minute it was released.
“Greetings summoners. We know wish crystals are something everyone is interested in but we still don’t have a timeline for implementing them. When we have more info we’ll share it but right now there is no timeline to share so we aren’t likely to see them any time soon.
What you are likely to see at some point are dual class 6* crystals available for shards similar to 4* and 5* dual class crystals with one difference. There will be a slight cost increase for 6* dual class crystals over 6* basics. This if for two reasons. First, 6* are the endgame champs and we feel like a slight premium to target endgame champs is warranted. We honestly made a mistake when we rolled out 5+ dual class crystals for the same price as a basic. The dual class crystals significantly increase your odds of pulling a given champ so there is some added value that we did not reflect in the shard cost. We are addressing that with the 6* dual crystals and expect them to cost somewhere between a 6* basic and a 6* featured to reflect their value. We don’t have a timeline for introducing these yet either but we wanted to set expectations now so you aren’t surprised when you see the added cost when they do arrive”
That would have gone a very long way towards addressing this backlash. On the same note, something like this could have been posted today as an announcement post instead of just a response to a thread that Kabam appears to be burying on the forums based on it showing up well down the list already even though it’s getting new posts.
I have these: Nick, KP, Apoc, Wags, Prof X (all awakened) plus Falcon and Masacre. Most of these are objectively strong pulls who would do almost nothing for me, though I’d be happy to awaken Falcon or my r2 AA.
I don’t have these: Corvus, Hype, Herc, Omega Sentinel, Warlock, Ultron, G99. These are objectively strong pulls who would be fantastic for me.
As 6-star AGs proliferate through the loyalty store, holiday deals and content, they also play a role in prioritizing selections.
I’m very disappointed at the outcome, but I’m also going to finish 7.2, 7.3 (exploration for both to finish act 7) and 8.1 (completion only) this month. I’ll use those nexuses, the summer event and maybe EOP to pad these numbers. In the mean time, I’ll briefly hold shards and make an informed decision about whether it’s worth the upcharge.
Edit: 18% is what suits my roster and opinion. Others could be a bit higher or even lower.
5-star dual crystals were only available to Uncollected players and above upon release. And that progression requirement made sense to me. The crystals were targeted at players that had already experienced the basic crystal lose value for their account. So a new crystal could help add some value back with a little bit of choice. What’s wrong with that? Why was it a mistake to release 5-star dual crystals at 10k shards? Things were already starting to shift towards to 6-stars anyway. Was it a mistake because Kabam just wanted to gouge the players for more of their shards? As far as I’m concerned, 5-star dual crystals were a huge success. They generated excitement again for 5-star openings. 6-star dual crystals will not be doing the same thing for me at all. Because
a) I probably won’t be buying any, and
b) if I do buy any, I’ll be annoyed that they cost more
Just another epic fail in a horrible month for Kabam, IMO.
When you run the numbers and see that nobody wants these and decide to walk it back, do you mind adding shards when we dup a 6* too please and thank you.
Consistency matters.