This should end

raviXsharma · April 2023

This month's EQ 3.1 (mutant advantage map), there is a path in thronebreaker difficulty where you need to use relics.

How is it my fault if i don't have a mutant relic? I had been playing so patiently but the fight actually got annoying than it was fun.

The number of energizing buffs are insane. Nodes are not fun, kabam. It can be frustrating to play these nodes when crystal opening is not in my control. I do not really have a choice but to go through this annoyance for exploring the quest. Either give some way out before implementing these kind of things, maybe mutant relic crystal. Or just don't force these nodes.

Yodabolt21 · April 2023

Why does it have to be a mutant relic? Nothing in the nodes specifies that.

Pikolu · April 2023

Use bishop and the fight is pretty much over before it even becomes a problem

Vyper81 · April 2023

I believe they are saying they do not have a mutant relic to put on OR since they are class specific.

Demonzfyre · April 2023

None of these paths in this months MEQ that have the relic node require the use of the relic to complete the path. All that node does is help you further on top of the already beneficial node on the path. Just play the path as you would the others and you'll be fine. Everyone was complaining about the 90% in power gain path in the Skill chapter-

https://youtu.be/st1uhsvM9tc

Get over it. You don't need to use the relics.

GinjabredMonsta · April 2023

Yodabolt21 said:
Why does it have to be a mutant relic? Nothing in the nodes specifies that.

It’s likely this is the mutant beneficial map do they are using a mutant team to try and get the full benefits

GinjabredMonsta · April 2023

Demonzfyre said:
None of these paths in this months MEQ that have the relic node require the use of the relic to complete the path. All that node does is help you further on top of the already beneficial node on the path. Just play the path as you would the others and you'll be fine. Everyone was complaining about the 90% in power gain path in the Skill chapter-
https://youtu.be/st1uhsvM9tc

Get over it. You don't need to use the relics.

I get what you’re saying, but these nodes are assuming people have a readily supply of relics or want to use them for content. While it isn’t force usage, it is heavily implied they want you to use it

SammyDe · April 2023

If you can make the fight easier, then why not? Otherwise bring your 1* Iron man to the TB EQ if you want a challenge.
I am also a bit annoyed that I have so many relics in every class except for Cosmic (1). Will there be dual class relic crystals to help us RNG poor summoners? Or have generic relics to equip on any champs?

Colinwhitworth69 · April 2023

Just play around the node.

Stature · April 2023

Pikolu said:
Use bishop and the fight is pretty much over before it even becomes a problem

That's not the point though. Ideally, temporary content should not be designed around requirements which are not easily accessible even to players who are close to end game. That the fight can be done by specific counters ignores the issue that the nodes in this month's EQ are opposite to the official stance on relics which is "using them provides some benefits but there are no penalties for not using them" and is shifting to if you don't use relics you are going to pay for it in some other way. Personal experiences may vary, but these type of nodes don't improve the game for anyone. If you have the relics you the node doesn't affect you, if you don't it just makes the game worse off (need more revives, longer fights etc.).

It's the inverse of the changes to AQ nodes where the class penalties were changed to class benefits on some paths. Relics are not available easily enough even at TB/Paragon levels and I would think lot of players are missing relics for specific classes to be able to adjust to these nodes at present. Given the current challenges with inputs and other parts of the game, it seems too soon to force such nodes without addressing the availability of relics in the game. It's either a clumsy attempt to monetise relics or a poorly thought out content design.

Pikolu · April 2023

Stature said:

Pikolu said:
Use bishop and the fight is pretty much over before it even becomes a problem
That's not the point though. Ideally, temporary content should not be designed around requirements which are not easily accessible even to players who are close to end game. That the fight can be done by specific counters ignores the issue that the nodes in this month's EQ are opposite to the official stance on relics which is "using them provides some benefits but there are no penalties for not using them" and is shifting to if you don't use relics you are going to pay for it in some other way. Personal experiences may vary, but these type of nodes don't improve the game for anyone. If you have the relics you the node doesn't affect you, if you don't it just makes the game worse off (need more revives, longer fights etc.).

It's the inverse of the changes to AQ nodes where the class penalties were changed to class benefits on some paths. Relics are not available easily enough even at TB/Paragon levels and I would think lot of players are missing relics for specific classes to be able to adjust to these nodes at present. Given the current challenges with inputs and other parts of the game, it seems too soon to force such nodes without addressing the availability of relics in the game. It's either a clumsy attempt to monetise relics or a poorly thought out content design.

The disadvantage of not having a relic is easily outweighed by the advantage of finishing the fight in 30 seconds.

Also 10% energize every 10 seconds is not hard at all to work around. There are nodes where the enemy has permanent 100% energize which would take you 100 seconds (almost 2 minutes) to even get to. When you use bishop on this map, you're literally finishing the fight within 30ish seconds.

The nodes as of yet aren't monetizing relics at all. A 3* r1 relic has just as much advantage in these nodes as a 6* r2 relic. 3* relics are very easy to obtain if you have been doing the side objectives for SQ often. Also with relic unbind costs removed, it is very easy to take your relic off of 1 champion and put it on another to aid you in the quest.

Nanosama · April 2023

Again, relics are not necessary to complete this path.
You have several mutants on it that can be easily swatted with Nimrod, Warlock or Omega S without relics.
I did most of the fights with Apocalypse and Stryfe synergy, also without relics.
And as stated by others, the fact that mutants benefits from the global node doesn’t mean you have to bring a full mutant team…

SirGamesBond · April 2023

As anonymous random member of MCOC Community who is playing for years and years, can clearly tell, these nodes are here to stay.

Also,
Resources have been invested into relics.
Relics also drive prestige.
Prestige is monetized at the top.

Community can present their grievances.
But.....relic nodes will keep coming.

7*s are already at the doorstep.
Ascensions are coming.

*Insert Adapt and evolve meme*

Pandingo · April 2023

I don't understand why everybody is so butthurt. My f2p account that I BARELY touch has relics for every class. Adapt to the game man. It's called a challenge. Step up or step out. Sorry.

Stature · April 2023

Pikolu said:

Stature said:

Pikolu said:
Use bishop and the fight is pretty much over before it even becomes a problem
That's not the point though. Ideally, temporary content should not be designed around requirements which are not easily accessible even to players who are close to end game. That the fight can be done by specific counters ignores the issue that the nodes in this month's EQ are opposite to the official stance on relics which is "using them provides some benefits but there are no penalties for not using them" and is shifting to if you don't use relics you are going to pay for it in some other way. Personal experiences may vary, but these type of nodes don't improve the game for anyone. If you have the relics you the node doesn't affect you, if you don't it just makes the game worse off (need more revives, longer fights etc.).

It's the inverse of the changes to AQ nodes where the class penalties were changed to class benefits on some paths. Relics are not available easily enough even at TB/Paragon levels and I would think lot of players are missing relics for specific classes to be able to adjust to these nodes at present. Given the current challenges with inputs and other parts of the game, it seems too soon to force such nodes without addressing the availability of relics in the game. It's either a clumsy attempt to monetise relics or a poorly thought out content design.
The disadvantage of not having a relic is easily outweighed by the advantage of finishing the fight in 30 seconds.

Also 10% energize every 10 seconds is not hard at all to work around. There are nodes where the enemy has permanent 100% energize which would take you 100 seconds (almost 2 minutes) to even get to. When you use bishop on this map, you're literally finishing the fight within 30ish seconds.

The nodes as of yet aren't monetizing relics at all. A 3* r1 relic has just as much advantage in these nodes as a 6* r2 relic. 3* relics are very easy to obtain if you have been doing the side objectives for SQ often. Also with relic unbind costs removed, it is very easy to take your relic off of 1 champion and put it on another to aid you in the quest.

You can get unlucky with RNG and have no relics of a class. The OP doesn't have any mutant relics, I don't have any cosmic relics. Relic shards are not available in quantities to ensure even TB+ (only people who have access to TB EQ) players have at least one relic of all classes at the lowest rarity. That's how early we are in terms of relics availability.

Again, the fact that the node can be played around or the fight can be cheesed with the right counter is immaterial to the direction content design, with respect to relics, is taking. The position was unambiguous, that use of relics would be beneficial or additive and non-use of relics will not be penalizing. Just the fact that this is a conversation now implies that this stance has changed, without any notice to effect. I am not bothered by the node specifically, but I am concerned about the change in position around relics.

DNA3000 · April 2023

Stature said:
Just the fact that this is a conversation now implies that this stance has changed, without any notice to effect.

The conversation of when an advantage for having something becomes a disadvantage for not having that something is a conversation that was started back in 2015. The conversation of how hard the top EQ difficulty is supposed to be is one that started when Uncollected tier was released, and those complaints keep coming back with every change to the top tier EQ maps.

Stature · April 2023

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:
Just the fact that this is a conversation now implies that this stance has changed, without any notice to effect.
The conversation of when an advantage for having something becomes a disadvantage for not having that something is a conversation that was started back in 2015. The conversation of how hard the top EQ difficulty is supposed to be is one that started when Uncollected tier was released, and those complaints keep coming back with every change to the top tier EQ maps.

This has nothing to do with the difficulty of the fight. The nodes in the EQ are just opposite to the official position on relics. If this has changed, the least the team can do is to make an announcement to the fact.

It's a perfectly ok thing to do, they have invested in creating this feature, not enough people are using it (and maybe not enough people are buying things related to it), so they want to make it seem more important. Doesn't have to be done sneakily though.

BigBlueOx · April 2023

Demonzfyre said:
None of these paths in this months MEQ that have the relic node require the use of the relic to complete the path. All that node does is help you further on top of the already beneficial node on the path. Just play the path as you would the others and you'll be fine. Everyone was complaining about the 90% in power gain path in the Skill chapter-
https://youtu.be/st1uhsvM9tc

Get over it. You don't need to use the relics.

You started from a reasonable enough place… then offered mediocre advice… then ended like an absolute bridge troll.

These are new nodes people should be able to raise questions/concerns as they came in rather unexpectedly. While I agree that it’s possible to play around the nodes maybe offer up a useful tip or scroll on.

DNA3000 · April 2023

Stature said:

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:
Just the fact that this is a conversation now implies that this stance has changed, without any notice to effect.
The conversation of when an advantage for having something becomes a disadvantage for not having that something is a conversation that was started back in 2015. The conversation of how hard the top EQ difficulty is supposed to be is one that started when Uncollected tier was released, and those complaints keep coming back with every change to the top tier EQ maps.
This has nothing to do with the difficulty of the fight. The nodes in the EQ are just opposite to the official position on relics..

They are only opposite the official position on relics if you buy the position that relics are necessary. However, they are not necessary. They are only necessary if you believe that the advantage they provide in the content is necessary. Which is a discussion that's been going on since forever. The content can be done without relics, so they are by definition not necessary. They are not a gate to the content. However, if you want to take the position that they are essentially necessary because the advantage they provide is something you deserve to have because otherwise the content is just too hard then by all means, feel free to attempt to make that case.

History suggests that before you convince any significant number of people, the next difficulty tier will materialize. That line of thought was unconvincing pretty much every time its been attempted. But maybe you'll be the one to break that cycle.

Stature · April 2023

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:
Just the fact that this is a conversation now implies that this stance has changed, without any notice to effect.
The conversation of when an advantage for having something becomes a disadvantage for not having that something is a conversation that was started back in 2015. The conversation of how hard the top EQ difficulty is supposed to be is one that started when Uncollected tier was released, and those complaints keep coming back with every change to the top tier EQ maps.
This has nothing to do with the difficulty of the fight. The nodes in the EQ are just opposite to the official position on relics..
They are only opposite the official position on relics if you buy the position that relics are necessary. However, they are not necessary. They are only necessary if you believe that the advantage they provide in the content is necessary. Which is a discussion that's been going on since forever. The content can be done without relics, so they are by definition not necessary. They are not a gate to the content. However, if you want to take the position that they are essentially necessary because the advantage they provide is something you deserve to have because otherwise the content is just too hard then by all means, feel free to attempt to make that case.

History suggests that before you convince any significant number of people, the next difficulty tier will materialize. That line of thought was unconvincing pretty much every time its been attempted. But maybe you'll be the one to break that cycle.

The content has moved from relics being beneficial to not using relics being punitive. Directionally, it is a step closer towards becoming necessary and probably a gating factor. I don't wish to convince anyone, just think that it would be better for the team to make an official announcement on the shift in design.

DNA3000 · April 2023

Stature said:

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:
Just the fact that this is a conversation now implies that this stance has changed, without any notice to effect.
The conversation of when an advantage for having something becomes a disadvantage for not having that something is a conversation that was started back in 2015. The conversation of how hard the top EQ difficulty is supposed to be is one that started when Uncollected tier was released, and those complaints keep coming back with every change to the top tier EQ maps.
This has nothing to do with the difficulty of the fight. The nodes in the EQ are just opposite to the official position on relics..
They are only opposite the official position on relics if you buy the position that relics are necessary. However, they are not necessary. They are only necessary if you believe that the advantage they provide in the content is necessary. Which is a discussion that's been going on since forever. The content can be done without relics, so they are by definition not necessary. They are not a gate to the content. However, if you want to take the position that they are essentially necessary because the advantage they provide is something you deserve to have because otherwise the content is just too hard then by all means, feel free to attempt to make that case.

History suggests that before you convince any significant number of people, the next difficulty tier will materialize. That line of thought was unconvincing pretty much every time its been attempted. But maybe you'll be the one to break that cycle.
The content has moved from relics being beneficial to not using relics being punitive. Directionally, it is a step closer towards becoming necessary and probably a gating factor. I don't wish to convince anyone, just think that it would be better for the team to make an official announcement on the shift in design.

Well, you might not wish to convince anyone, but you will need to at least convince the devs that they made such a shift in design intent before you can move on to convincing them to announce that they did, as that would seem to be a prerequisite.

Sachhyam257 · April 2023

Stature said:

Pikolu said:

Stature said:

Pikolu said:
Use bishop and the fight is pretty much over before it even becomes a problem
That's not the point though. Ideally, temporary content should not be designed around requirements which are not easily accessible even to players who are close to end game. That the fight can be done by specific counters ignores the issue that the nodes in this month's EQ are opposite to the official stance on relics which is "using them provides some benefits but there are no penalties for not using them" and is shifting to if you don't use relics you are going to pay for it in some other way. Personal experiences may vary, but these type of nodes don't improve the game for anyone. If you have the relics you the node doesn't affect you, if you don't it just makes the game worse off (need more revives, longer fights etc.).

It's the inverse of the changes to AQ nodes where the class penalties were changed to class benefits on some paths. Relics are not available easily enough even at TB/Paragon levels and I would think lot of players are missing relics for specific classes to be able to adjust to these nodes at present. Given the current challenges with inputs and other parts of the game, it seems too soon to force such nodes without addressing the availability of relics in the game. It's either a clumsy attempt to monetise relics or a poorly thought out content design.
The disadvantage of not having a relic is easily outweighed by the advantage of finishing the fight in 30 seconds.

Also 10% energize every 10 seconds is not hard at all to work around. There are nodes where the enemy has permanent 100% energize which would take you 100 seconds (almost 2 minutes) to even get to. When you use bishop on this map, you're literally finishing the fight within 30ish seconds.

The nodes as of yet aren't monetizing relics at all. A 3* r1 relic has just as much advantage in these nodes as a 6* r2 relic. 3* relics are very easy to obtain if you have been doing the side objectives for SQ often. Also with relic unbind costs removed, it is very easy to take your relic off of 1 champion and put it on another to aid you in the quest.
You can get unlucky with RNG and have no relics of a class. The OP doesn't have any mutant relics, I don't have any cosmic relics. Relic shards are not available in quantities to ensure even TB+ (only people who have access to TB EQ) players have at least one relic of all classes at the lowest rarity. That's how early we are in terms of relics availability.

Again, the fact that the node can be played around or the fight can be cheesed with the right counter is immaterial to the direction content design, with respect to relics, is taking. The position was unambiguous, that use of relics would be beneficial or additive and non-use of relics will not be penalizing. Just the fact that this is a conversation now implies that this stance has changed, without any notice to effect. I am not bothered by the node specifically, but I am concerned about the change in position around relics.

Yup. I'm missing a total of 5 relics- all the tech ones, gambit and cap marvel. Now, a node like this in the tb eq tech quest will either force me to use other classes, or to use tech champs without relics. So I have to either: use other classes, which won't get me the tech quest bonuses, making fights longer, or, use tech champs without relics and deal with the relic node, which again makes fights longer.

These fights can definitely be done without relics don't get me wrong, but depending on the node(s) it could be really annoying. So I think it's fair to ask Kabam whether they intend to create more of these nodes and how far they will go with them.

BigBlueOx · April 2023

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:
Just the fact that this is a conversation now implies that this stance has changed, without any notice to effect.
The conversation of when an advantage for having something becomes a disadvantage for not having that something is a conversation that was started back in 2015. The conversation of how hard the top EQ difficulty is supposed to be is one that started when Uncollected tier was released, and those complaints keep coming back with every change to the top tier EQ maps.
This has nothing to do with the difficulty of the fight. The nodes in the EQ are just opposite to the official position on relics..
They are only opposite the official position on relics if you buy the position that relics are necessary. However, they are not necessary. They are only necessary if you believe that the advantage they provide in the content is necessary. Which is a discussion that's been going on since forever. The content can be done without relics, so they are by definition not necessary. They are not a gate to the content. However, if you want to take the position that they are essentially necessary because the advantage they provide is something you deserve to have because otherwise the content is just too hard then by all means, feel free to attempt to make that case.

History suggests that before you convince any significant number of people, the next difficulty tier will materialize. That line of thought was unconvincing pretty much every time its been attempted. But maybe you'll be the one to break that cycle.
The content has moved from relics being beneficial to not using relics being punitive. Directionally, it is a step closer towards becoming necessary and probably a gating factor. I don't wish to convince anyone, just think that it would be better for the team to make an official announcement on the shift in design.
Well, you might not wish to convince anyone, but you will need to at least convince the devs that they made such a shift in design intent before you can move on to convincing them to announce that they did, as that would seem to be a prerequisite.

Let’s try this with a foundational question, is a node that effectively turns off the ability to use specials/gain power unless a relic is available a beneficial or punitive node?

Because while it is possible to play the node, it is more difficult without a relic not because of the benefit of the relic itself but because a core game mechanic was tied to it. To me that sounds clearly punitive.

A different question is then, is this a bad thing? Not necessarily, as that opens up new types of design. But to date the community has been told that not using relics would not have a negative cost, which in this case it does, because it’s tied to a core mechanic. It’s not unfair for the community to ask for communications about changes in direction like this, heck I thought that was one of the purposes of the monthly patch notes… so why wasn’t this more obviously in there?

Stature · April 2023

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:

DNA3000 said:

Stature said:
Just the fact that this is a conversation now implies that this stance has changed, without any notice to effect.
The conversation of when an advantage for having something becomes a disadvantage for not having that something is a conversation that was started back in 2015. The conversation of how hard the top EQ difficulty is supposed to be is one that started when Uncollected tier was released, and those complaints keep coming back with every change to the top tier EQ maps.
This has nothing to do with the difficulty of the fight. The nodes in the EQ are just opposite to the official position on relics..
They are only opposite the official position on relics if you buy the position that relics are necessary. However, they are not necessary. They are only necessary if you believe that the advantage they provide in the content is necessary. Which is a discussion that's been going on since forever. The content can be done without relics, so they are by definition not necessary. They are not a gate to the content. However, if you want to take the position that they are essentially necessary because the advantage they provide is something you deserve to have because otherwise the content is just too hard then by all means, feel free to attempt to make that case.

History suggests that before you convince any significant number of people, the next difficulty tier will materialize. That line of thought was unconvincing pretty much every time its been attempted. But maybe you'll be the one to break that cycle.
The content has moved from relics being beneficial to not using relics being punitive. Directionally, it is a step closer towards becoming necessary and probably a gating factor. I don't wish to convince anyone, just think that it would be better for the team to make an official announcement on the shift in design.
Well, you might not wish to convince anyone, but you will need to at least convince the devs that they made such a shift in design intent before you can move on to convincing them to announce that they did, as that would seem to be a prerequisite.

The thread is evidence enough that at least a portion of the players are confused by the node implementation and view it as another broken promise. There will be more complaints if the design continues to creep in this direction, might be better for them to get ahead of the issue rather than have another apothecary type situation to deal with.

Buttehrs · April 2023

I mean, all you have to do is one simple duel this week and you get a 4* relic just like that.

BigBlueOx · April 2023

Buttehrs said:
I mean, all you have to do is one simple duel this week and you get a 4* relic just like that.

I agree, they have made them fairly easy to acquire 3 and 4 star ones, but you do need to have RNG too

Guytennis · April 2023

raviXsharma said:
This month's EQ 3.1 (mutant advantage map), there is a path in thronebreaker difficulty where you need to use relics.

How is it my fault if i don't have a mutant relic? I had been playing so patiently but the fight actually got annoying than it was fun.
The number of energizing buffs are insane. Nodes are not fun, kabam. It can be frustrating to play these nodes when crystal opening is not in my control. I do not really have a choice but to go through this annoyance for exploring the quest. Either give some way out before implementing these kind of things, maybe mutant relic crystal. Or just don't force these nodes.

This is just the beginning. Even though they said you can just ignore relics, clearely future content will heavily rely on champs being bound to this stupidness.

Thanks_D19 · April 2023

This thread is so confusing to me. Like it’s a 10% energize, that is next to nothing I don’t get how this is making the path difficult. Also just put on a relic it’s not that hard. And if you don’t have any relics at this point that is very hard to believe, I mean I have never even focused them and I have basically every relic as a 3*

Lpoo · April 2023

Demonzfyre said:

Get over it. You don't need to use the relics.

Seems like another troll comment

Crusaderjr · April 2023

this is where all the people who said they wouldnt grind for relics show up.
it was clear this was going to be done by kabam eventually and they gave amble time to do so.
I have just about every 3* relic there is by simply playing the game (not going out of my way to farm for them)
same thing happened with 1* champs and people selling champs, they are simply there to be there and if they are eventually needed to be used you have em available...

This should end

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