Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Aar taking priority over an immunity in this particular situation is dumb, that's the whole point I'm trying to make here, especially for a champ whose main purpose is to counter fights like this one. I get what you're saying, sure it's preventing the buff before her immunity does but that's just dumb.
You can't have the priority be one way for one fight and another for another fight. It's not even a priority question. It logically makes sense for it to be this way. Not that it's a priority either.
Cassie was not made to counter this.if she was, she wouldn't get the incinerate
In this case for neutralize, yes you can, and that's how it should be cause there's no buff being neutralized. It's neutralizing the trigger which won't trigger because you're immune, make it make sense.
I said "she was designed to counter mystics that punish you for having buffs" hence the buff immunity, she obviously can't counter Wiccan which is I why made this post lol.
Okay I’ll make it make sense very easy. You’re confused on what neutralize does. You’re thinking of it like stagger. It’s more like fate seal. It’s pretty much exactly like fate seal with two differences: the chance to prevent the buff isn’t always 100%, and neutralize doesn’t deal with buffs already on the opponent. But they do essentially the same thing: stop a buff from being applied. Your buff immunity never has to trigger if the buff never attempted to be applied in the first place.
No I'm not lol that's just you assuming. What you're saying is basically: it's preventing the trigger (which still won't trigger a buff because of your immunity) from triggering. Totally makes sense.
There’s a difference between a buff not applying because AAR prevented it, and a buff not applying because of an immunity. What part of that do you not get?
When did I ever say they were the same? Lmao all I've been saying is that the neutralize and aar taking priority over the immunity in this particular scenario is dumb. You're being punished for attempting to trigger a buff correct? There's absolutely no reason her immunity shouldn't trigger first it's dumb.
But you’re completely ignoring the fact that an immunity can’t prevent something that was never applied in the first place. You just refuse to acknowledge it. It makes perfect logical sense.
We get how it works, they're just pointing out that it's weird. Obviously the game is coded to check ability accuracy first, but it's just weird to punish buff immune characters for having the ability accuracy reduced on an ability that has no chance of ever happening. You can't raise the ability accuracy of gaining the buff and suddenly start gaining it, so why should reducing the ability accuracy of it punish you?
This is just such a strange interaction that should either be changed or they should put more effort into explaining it in game. This interaction doesn't happen anywhere else in mcoc, and it's the furthest thing from self explanatory. Anyone with decent knowledge and experience would logically assume that reducing the ability accuracy of an ability that will never activate wouldn't cause a problem.
But here's the thing, the buff DOES trigger, but the immunity prevents it from applying to the champion. That is why you see the "immune" text pop up. You might not like it, but it has to work this way because the game needs a TRUE or FALSE to call the immunity, and many abilities are dependent on this. Basically, the game will check if effect == TRUE to call the immunity or any other ability that dependes on the effect being active. If the effect always has a state of FALSE then the game can't call any of the functions that depend on it.
See, I still understand why it works the way that it does, but knowing why doesn't make it any less frustrating of an interaction. It's just too complicated. You can't gain a buff but the neutralize reduces your ability to trigger the buff you can't gain so you have a 100% chance to trigger the buff but a 0% chance to gain the buff and reducing the chance to trigger the buff causes bad things to happen to you even if you never gain the buff because it's a 0% chance for that to happen. Of course it makes sense in Python, but it doesn't make any sense as a feature in the video game. At very least Kabam should put more work into explaining the difference between triggering a buff and gaining a buff, because all we have to figure this out without the forums is the small description of Neutralize in the champions description.
Something a champ is immune to shouldnt try to trigger in the first place.
You’re saying this because you don’t quite understand how the game is coded.
It would be impossible to be immune to something if there was no way to trigger it in the first place.
The buff HAS to try to trigger in order for the game to know it has triggered. If it cannot even try and trigger, then the immunity can’t ever be triggered.
If what you asked for happened, spider man 2099 would never be able to trigger his pause, because you’ve asked that the buff never tries to trigger, so the game has no idea that a buff tried to trigger at all - so it doesn’t know to pause his debuffs. What you asked for just destroyed the champion
You cant trigger something that's already triggered, this would make sense if they were only immune sometimes, colossus is immune to bleed all the time, his immunity is triggered all the time it cannot be re-triggered, how can something try to trigger if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?
“You cant trigger something that's already triggered” Nothing in this situation is trying to re trigger something that’s already triggered. I’m not sure what you mean.
“how can something try to trigger if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?”
Glad you asked.
The way it works is Spidey dexes -> he attempts to gain a buff -> the game is flagging this as a buff -> Spidey is immune to buffs -> immune call out pops up
When there’s a neutralise, the order is different
Spidey dexes -> neutralise reduces the ability accuracy of the buff -> the buff doesn’t attempt to trigger -> the game never knows that Spidey is immune to a buff that didn’t try to trigger
The issue here is with your wording “if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?”
The thing is - it’s not impossible for a buff to try to trigger on Spidey. It’s impossible for a buff to be active on Spidey. The buff has to try to trigger for Spidey to be immune.
Imagine this. You’re playing as Nick Fury and you have a 100% concussion on you. If you hit colossus with a medium attack and try and place a bleed, do you think there would still be an immune call out?
Do you think colossus would be immune to a bleed that never triggered?
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Aar taking priority over an immunity in this particular situation is dumb, that's the whole point I'm trying to make here, especially for a champ whose main purpose is to counter fights like this one. I get what you're saying, sure it's preventing the buff before her immunity does but that's just dumb.
You can't have the priority be one way for one fight and another for another fight. It's not even a priority question. It logically makes sense for it to be this way. Not that it's a priority either.
Cassie was not made to counter this.if she was, she wouldn't get the incinerate
In this case for neutralize, yes you can, and that's how it should be cause there's no buff being neutralized. It's neutralizing the trigger which won't trigger because you're immune, make it make sense.
I said "she was designed to counter mystics that punish you for having buffs" hence the buff immunity, she obviously can't counter Wiccan which is I why made this post lol.
Okay I’ll make it make sense very easy. You’re confused on what neutralize does. You’re thinking of it like stagger. It’s more like fate seal. It’s pretty much exactly like fate seal with two differences: the chance to prevent the buff isn’t always 100%, and neutralize doesn’t deal with buffs already on the opponent. But they do essentially the same thing: stop a buff from being applied. Your buff immunity never has to trigger if the buff never attempted to be applied in the first place.
No I'm not lol that's just you assuming. What you're saying is basically: it's preventing the trigger (which still won't trigger a buff because of your immunity) from triggering. Totally makes sense.
There’s a difference between a buff not applying because AAR prevented it, and a buff not applying because of an immunity. What part of that do you not get?
When did I ever say they were the same? Lmao all I've been saying is that the neutralize and aar taking priority over the immunity in this particular scenario is dumb. You're being punished for attempting to trigger a buff correct? There's absolutely no reason her immunity shouldn't trigger first it's dumb.
But you’re completely ignoring the fact that an immunity can’t prevent something that was never applied in the first place. You just refuse to acknowledge it. It makes perfect logical sense.
We get how it works, they're just pointing out that it's weird. Obviously the game is coded to check ability accuracy first, but it's just weird to punish buff immune characters for having the ability accuracy reduced on an ability that has no chance of ever happening. You can't raise the ability accuracy of gaining the buff and suddenly start gaining it, so why should reducing the ability accuracy of it punish you?
This is just such a strange interaction that should either be changed or they should put more effort into explaining it in game. This interaction doesn't happen anywhere else in mcoc, and it's the furthest thing from self explanatory. Anyone with decent knowledge and experience would logically assume that reducing the ability accuracy of an ability that will never activate wouldn't cause a problem.
“You can't raise the ability accuracy of gaining the buff and suddenly start gaining it, so why should reducing the ability accuracy of it punish you?”
That’s a bit of a false equivalency, those aren’t two opposite situations.
Situation 1- buff immune champ can have ability accuracy of a buff reduced
Situation 2- buff immune champ gains buff
You’re mistaking what ability accuracy does. It’s just the chance for something to attempt to trigger. You can’t suddenly gain the buff because they’re still immune to it.
But what you can do, is get extra ability accuracy and counteract neutralise. So if you grab a team of Quake 3,4 and 5* and a Hawkeye, that increases the ability accuracy of all champions, and it means that you can now have an extra 28% ability accuracy. So you now have a 128% chance to trigger the dexterity buff
Rintrah tries to reduce it by 100%, leaving you with a 28% chance to attempt to gain the buff, and still pause your debuffs.
I know you probably weren’t talking about this, and it might be an off hand comment about suddenly gaining the buff. But that seems a little in bad faith for this topic, because the game does actually already account for raising the ability accuracy of the buff.
“they should put more effort into explaining it in game”
I disagree. There are too many interactions in the game to completely cover all of them. And there is something lost by hand holding players through everything and pointing out things without pushing them to learn and test
If someone is confused they can come to the forum or line chats and ask, and then it can be explained to them.
I'm not talking from a flat out technical perspective, I'm talking from the perspective of all of the confused players who are going to eventually get screwed over by this interaction. Without understanding how the actual code behind the game works, there's no way of knowing why being buff immune doesn't work. From a game design standpoint, it's just not logical to develop a feature that technically punishes players for doing something they physically cannot do. Of course you can say "but they CAN do it because it's about TRIGGERING it not GAINING it" but that alone requires so much more explanation to understand why the player is being punished here.
It's not hand holding to explain the difference between triggering a buff and gaining it. They did it with defensive vs offensive ability accuracy, and that's why people aren't nearly as confused about that as they used to be. Even then, I still see people confused about which type of ability accuracy is responsible for what abilities because it's still easy to understand any non common sense reduction as a bug.
Something a champ is immune to shouldnt try to trigger in the first place.
You’re saying this because you don’t quite understand how the game is coded.
It would be impossible to be immune to something if there was no way to trigger it in the first place.
The buff HAS to try to trigger in order for the game to know it has triggered. If it cannot even try and trigger, then the immunity can’t ever be triggered.
If what you asked for happened, spider man 2099 would never be able to trigger his pause, because you’ve asked that the buff never tries to trigger, so the game has no idea that a buff tried to trigger at all - so it doesn’t know to pause his debuffs. What you asked for just destroyed the champion
You cant trigger something that's already triggered, this would make sense if they were only immune sometimes, colossus is immune to bleed all the time, his immunity is triggered all the time it cannot be re-triggered, how can something try to trigger if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?
“You cant trigger something that's already triggered” Nothing in this situation is trying to re trigger something that’s already triggered. I’m not sure what you mean.
“how can something try to trigger if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?”
Glad you asked.
The way it works is Spidey dexes -> he attempts to gain a buff -> the game is flagging this as a buff -> Spidey is immune to buffs -> immune call out pops up
When there’s a neutralise, the order is different
Spidey dexes -> neutralise reduces the ability accuracy of the buff -> the buff doesn’t attempt to trigger -> the game never knows that Spidey is immune to a buff that didn’t try to trigger
The issue here is with your wording “if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?”
The thing is - it’s not impossible for a buff to try to trigger on Spidey. It’s impossible for a buff to be active on Spidey. The buff has to try to trigger for Spidey to be immune.
Imagine this. You’re playing as Nick Fury and you have a 100% concussion on you. If you hit colossus with a medium attack and try and place a bleed, do you think there would still be an immune call out?
Do you think colossus would be immune to a bleed that never triggered?
I mean that if they are immune they always have that immunity their immunity is triggered all the time.
Why does it automatically default to trying to trigger a buff? Why not just make an entirely different effect for it and or just remove the mastery entirely.
Colossus would still be immune to bleed even if the effect wasnt triggered? he has metal skin.
Something a champ is immune to shouldnt try to trigger in the first place.
You’re saying this because you don’t quite understand how the game is coded.
It would be impossible to be immune to something if there was no way to trigger it in the first place.
The buff HAS to try to trigger in order for the game to know it has triggered. If it cannot even try and trigger, then the immunity can’t ever be triggered.
If what you asked for happened, spider man 2099 would never be able to trigger his pause, because you’ve asked that the buff never tries to trigger, so the game has no idea that a buff tried to trigger at all - so it doesn’t know to pause his debuffs. What you asked for just destroyed the champion
You cant trigger something that's already triggered, this would make sense if they were only immune sometimes, colossus is immune to bleed all the time, his immunity is triggered all the time it cannot be re-triggered, how can something try to trigger if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?
“You cant trigger something that's already triggered” Nothing in this situation is trying to re trigger something that’s already triggered. I’m not sure what you mean.
“how can something try to trigger if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?”
Glad you asked.
The way it works is Spidey dexes -> he attempts to gain a buff -> the game is flagging this as a buff -> Spidey is immune to buffs -> immune call out pops up
When there’s a neutralise, the order is different
Spidey dexes -> neutralise reduces the ability accuracy of the buff -> the buff doesn’t attempt to trigger -> the game never knows that Spidey is immune to a buff that didn’t try to trigger
The issue here is with your wording “if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?”
The thing is - it’s not impossible for a buff to try to trigger on Spidey. It’s impossible for a buff to be active on Spidey. The buff has to try to trigger for Spidey to be immune.
Imagine this. You’re playing as Nick Fury and you have a 100% concussion on you. If you hit colossus with a medium attack and try and place a bleed, do you think there would still be an immune call out?
Do you think colossus would be immune to a bleed that never triggered?
I mean that if they are immune they always have that immunity their immunity is triggered all the time.
Why does it automatically default to trying to trigger a buff? Why not just make an entirely different effect for it and or just remove the mastery entirely.
Colossus would still be immune to bleed even if the effect wasnt triggered? he has metal skin.
Correct, the immunity is always there, but it doesn’t have to do anything if the opponent fails to ATTEMPT to inflict the effect. AAR is all about an attempt, immunity is all about when that attempt passes the check
Players, quite rightly, don't execpt to get punished for not getting a buff they were never going to get, therefore the system shouldn't punish them.
The implementation of the system should follow that as anything else seems "rules lawyer" which is not a great design principal. Nobody reads the small print.
Something a champ is immune to shouldnt try to trigger in the first place.
You’re saying this because you don’t quite understand how the game is coded.
It would be impossible to be immune to something if there was no way to trigger it in the first place.
The buff HAS to try to trigger in order for the game to know it has triggered. If it cannot even try and trigger, then the immunity can’t ever be triggered.
If what you asked for happened, spider man 2099 would never be able to trigger his pause, because you’ve asked that the buff never tries to trigger, so the game has no idea that a buff tried to trigger at all - so it doesn’t know to pause his debuffs. What you asked for just destroyed the champion
You cant trigger something that's already triggered, this would make sense if they were only immune sometimes, colossus is immune to bleed all the time, his immunity is triggered all the time it cannot be re-triggered, how can something try to trigger if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?
“You cant trigger something that's already triggered” Nothing in this situation is trying to re trigger something that’s already triggered. I’m not sure what you mean.
“how can something try to trigger if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?”
Glad you asked.
The way it works is Spidey dexes -> he attempts to gain a buff -> the game is flagging this as a buff -> Spidey is immune to buffs -> immune call out pops up
When there’s a neutralise, the order is different
Spidey dexes -> neutralise reduces the ability accuracy of the buff -> the buff doesn’t attempt to trigger -> the game never knows that Spidey is immune to a buff that didn’t try to trigger
The issue here is with your wording “if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?”
The thing is - it’s not impossible for a buff to try to trigger on Spidey. It’s impossible for a buff to be active on Spidey. The buff has to try to trigger for Spidey to be immune.
Imagine this. You’re playing as Nick Fury and you have a 100% concussion on you. If you hit colossus with a medium attack and try and place a bleed, do you think there would still be an immune call out?
Do you think colossus would be immune to a bleed that never triggered?
I mean that if they are immune they always have that immunity their immunity is triggered all the time.
Why does it automatically default to trying to trigger a buff? Why not just make an entirely different effect for it and or just remove the mastery entirely.
Colossus would still be immune to bleed even if the effect wasnt triggered? he has metal skin.
I don’t think the game should be re-designed to fit what some people in the community *think* should happen. Because in many cases, they don’t understand what’s happening.
The game is consistent, it makes sense. Buff immunity is not neutralise immunity because that’s a separate thing, it’s an interaction we have to deal with. Buff immunity is strong in and of itself, it doesn’t need to counter everything a mystic can possibly do to counter buffs.
If you don’t understand how the game works here I can try and explain it again for you in a different way. If you understand that this is the way the game works, but you disagree, then that’s your right but this is a debate that’s happened several times, and kabam have weighed in on it. It’s not gonna change, so personally I don’t see much point in arguing it to death.
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Aar taking priority over an immunity in this particular situation is dumb, that's the whole point I'm trying to make here, especially for a champ whose main purpose is to counter fights like this one. I get what you're saying, sure it's preventing the buff before her immunity does but that's just dumb.
You can't have the priority be one way for one fight and another for another fight. It's not even a priority question. It logically makes sense for it to be this way. Not that it's a priority either.
Cassie was not made to counter this.if she was, she wouldn't get the incinerate
In this case for neutralize, yes you can, and that's how it should be cause there's no buff being neutralized. It's neutralizing the trigger which won't trigger because you're immune, make it make sense.
I said "she was designed to counter mystics that punish you for having buffs" hence the buff immunity, she obviously can't counter Wiccan which is I why made this post lol.
Okay I’ll make it make sense very easy. You’re confused on what neutralize does. You’re thinking of it like stagger. It’s more like fate seal. It’s pretty much exactly like fate seal with two differences: the chance to prevent the buff isn’t always 100%, and neutralize doesn’t deal with buffs already on the opponent. But they do essentially the same thing: stop a buff from being applied. Your buff immunity never has to trigger if the buff never attempted to be applied in the first place.
No I'm not lol that's just you assuming. What you're saying is basically: it's preventing the trigger (which still won't trigger a buff because of your immunity) from triggering. Totally makes sense.
There’s a difference between a buff not applying because AAR prevented it, and a buff not applying because of an immunity. What part of that do you not get?
When did I ever say they were the same? Lmao all I've been saying is that the neutralize and aar taking priority over the immunity in this particular scenario is dumb. You're being punished for attempting to trigger a buff correct? There's absolutely no reason her immunity shouldn't trigger first it's dumb.
But you’re completely ignoring the fact that an immunity can’t prevent something that was never applied in the first place. You just refuse to acknowledge it. It makes perfect logical sense.
We get how it works, they're just pointing out that it's weird. Obviously the game is coded to check ability accuracy first, but it's just weird to punish buff immune characters for having the ability accuracy reduced on an ability that has no chance of ever happening. You can't raise the ability accuracy of gaining the buff and suddenly start gaining it, so why should reducing the ability accuracy of it punish you?
This is just such a strange interaction that should either be changed or they should put more effort into explaining it in game. This interaction doesn't happen anywhere else in mcoc, and it's the furthest thing from self explanatory. Anyone with decent knowledge and experience would logically assume that reducing the ability accuracy of an ability that will never activate wouldn't cause a problem.
“You can't raise the ability accuracy of gaining the buff and suddenly start gaining it, so why should reducing the ability accuracy of it punish you?”
That’s a bit of a false equivalency, those aren’t two opposite situations.
Situation 1- buff immune champ can have ability accuracy of a buff reduced
Situation 2- buff immune champ gains buff
You’re mistaking what ability accuracy does. It’s just the chance for something to attempt to trigger. You can’t suddenly gain the buff because they’re still immune to it.
But what you can do, is get extra ability accuracy and counteract neutralise. So if you grab a team of Quake 3,4 and 5* and a Hawkeye, that increases the ability accuracy of all champions, and it means that you can now have an extra 28% ability accuracy. So you now have a 128% chance to trigger the dexterity buff
Rintrah tries to reduce it by 100%, leaving you with a 28% chance to attempt to gain the buff, and still pause your debuffs.
I know you probably weren’t talking about this, and it might be an off hand comment about suddenly gaining the buff. But that seems a little in bad faith for this topic, because the game does actually already account for raising the ability accuracy of the buff.
“they should put more effort into explaining it in game”
I disagree. There are too many interactions in the game to completely cover all of them. And there is something lost by hand holding players through everything and pointing out things without pushing them to learn and test
If someone is confused they can come to the forum or line chats and ask, and then it can be explained to them.
I'm not talking from a flat out technical perspective, I'm talking from the perspective of all of the confused players who are going to eventually get screwed over by this interaction. Without understanding how the actual code behind the game works, there's no way of knowing why being buff immune doesn't work. From a game design standpoint, it's just not logical to develop a feature that technically punishes players for doing something they physically cannot do. Of course you can say "but they CAN do it because it's about TRIGGERING it not GAINING it" but that alone requires so much more explanation to understand why the player is being punished here.
It's not hand holding to explain the difference between triggering a buff and gaining it. They did it with defensive vs offensive ability accuracy, and that's why people aren't nearly as confused about that as they used to be. Even then, I still see people confused about which type of ability accuracy is responsible for what abilities because it's still easy to understand any non common sense reduction as a bug.
This is a complicated game, I don’t think it needs to be explicitly stated in game.
Now, what I *would* like to see is a full glossary of effects, explaining what things are. Like an explanation of ability accuracy, and what buff immunes are.
But I don’t think it should extend to something that lays out that buff immune champions can fail to trigger buffs against neutralise. I think it needs to leave some space for players to find things out for themselves
If that’s what you’re hoping for too, then I’m glad we agree!
Players, quite rightly, don't execpt to get punished for not getting a buff they were never going to get, therefore the system shouldn't punish them.
The implementation of the system should follow that as anything else seems "rules lawyer" which is not a great design principal. Nobody reads the small print.
The game shouldn’t be designed against the code just to appease the player. If it follows the logic, then that’s how it should work. End of discussion. Players just have to find other champs to use
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Aar taking priority over an immunity in this particular situation is dumb, that's the whole point I'm trying to make here, especially for a champ whose main purpose is to counter fights like this one. I get what you're saying, sure it's preventing the buff before her immunity does but that's just dumb.
It’s not dumb at all. An immunity never occurs if the effect they’re immune to was never placed on the champion at all.
That's not the dumb part, the dumb part is that aar takes priority over her immunity.
What's your take on the nick fury -100% aar and Colossus situation? Did the bleed not apply because Colossus was immune or because Nick was unable to in the first place?
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Aar taking priority over an immunity in this particular situation is dumb, that's the whole point I'm trying to make here, especially for a champ whose main purpose is to counter fights like this one. I get what you're saying, sure it's preventing the buff before her immunity does but that's just dumb.
It’s not dumb at all. An immunity never occurs if the effect they’re immune to was never placed on the champion at all.
That's not the dumb part, the dumb part is that aar takes priority over her immunity.
What's your take on the nick fury -100% aar and Colossus situation? Did the bleed not apply because Colossus was immune or because Nick was unable to in the first place?
?
Why do you keep asking me that when it's pretty obvious I understand what you're saying I just think it's dumb regardless? Lol I'm just gonna copy and paste what someone else said above so I don't have to type another paragraph for like the fifth time:
"You can't gain a buff but the neutralize reduces your ability to trigger the buff you can't gain so you have a 100% chance to trigger the buff but a 0% chance to gain the buff and reducing the chance to trigger the buff causes bad things to happen to you even if you never gain the buff because it's a 0% chance for that to happen"
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Aar taking priority over an immunity in this particular situation is dumb, that's the whole point I'm trying to make here, especially for a champ whose main purpose is to counter fights like this one. I get what you're saying, sure it's preventing the buff before her immunity does but that's just dumb.
It’s not dumb at all. An immunity never occurs if the effect they’re immune to was never placed on the champion at all.
That's not the dumb part, the dumb part is that aar takes priority over her immunity.
What's your take on the nick fury -100% aar and Colossus situation? Did the bleed not apply because Colossus was immune or because Nick was unable to in the first place?
?
Why do you keep asking me that when it's pretty obvious I understand what you're saying I just think it's dumb regardless? Lol I'm just gonna copy and paste what someone else said above so I don't have to type another paragraph for like the fifth time:
"You can't gain a buff but the neutralize reduces your ability to trigger the buff you can't gain so you have a 100% chance to trigger the buff but a 0% chance to gain the buff and reducing the chance to trigger the buff causes bad things to happen to you even if you never gain the buff because it's a 0% chance for that to happen"
Because you never replied to it directly. But nevermind that.
So if you think the game should work ome way in one situation and another way in the same exact situation depending on what you want, then you want the game to be inconsistent. If you ask me, that's the dumb thing
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Aar taking priority over an immunity in this particular situation is dumb, that's the whole point I'm trying to make here, especially for a champ whose main purpose is to counter fights like this one. I get what you're saying, sure it's preventing the buff before her immunity does but that's just dumb.
It’s not dumb at all. An immunity never occurs if the effect they’re immune to was never placed on the champion at all.
That's not the dumb part, the dumb part is that aar takes priority over her immunity.
What's your take on the nick fury -100% aar and Colossus situation? Did the bleed not apply because Colossus was immune or because Nick was unable to in the first place?
?
Why do you keep asking me that when it's pretty obvious I understand what you're saying I just think it's dumb regardless? Lol I'm just gonna copy and paste what someone else said above so I don't have to type another paragraph for like the fifth time:
"You can't gain a buff but the neutralize reduces your ability to trigger the buff you can't gain so you have a 100% chance to trigger the buff but a 0% chance to gain the buff and reducing the chance to trigger the buff causes bad things to happen to you even if you never gain the buff because it's a 0% chance for that to happen"
Because you never replied to it directly. But nevermind that.
So if you think the game should work ome way in one situation and another way in the same exact situation depending on what you want, then you want the game to be inconsistent. If you ask me, that's the dumb thing
The difference is one situation isn't punishing you, the other one is, big brain. If you're gonna make a comparison at least make a valid one lol
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Aar taking priority over an immunity in this particular situation is dumb, that's the whole point I'm trying to make here, especially for a champ whose main purpose is to counter fights like this one. I get what you're saying, sure it's preventing the buff before her immunity does but that's just dumb.
It’s not dumb at all. An immunity never occurs if the effect they’re immune to was never placed on the champion at all.
That's not the dumb part, the dumb part is that aar takes priority over her immunity.
What's your take on the nick fury -100% aar and Colossus situation? Did the bleed not apply because Colossus was immune or because Nick was unable to in the first place?
?
Why do you keep asking me that when it's pretty obvious I understand what you're saying I just think it's dumb regardless? Lol I'm just gonna copy and paste what someone else said above so I don't have to type another paragraph for like the fifth time:
"You can't gain a buff but the neutralize reduces your ability to trigger the buff you can't gain so you have a 100% chance to trigger the buff but a 0% chance to gain the buff and reducing the chance to trigger the buff causes bad things to happen to you even if you never gain the buff because it's a 0% chance for that to happen"
Because you never replied to it directly. But nevermind that.
So if you think the game should work ome way in one situation and another way in the same exact situation depending on what you want, then you want the game to be inconsistent. If you ask me, that's the dumb thing
The difference is one situation isn't punishing you, the other one is, big brain. If you're gonna make a comparison at least make a valid one lol
"Punishing you " is not a difference the game cares about. Why? Because it can easily be swapped to make it so that the interaction punishes the defender. Cassie Lang on a node that gives defender buffs? Wiccan can make those incinerates.
In both situation a champion tries to trigger something which even if they had succeeded in doing , an immunity would have prevented.
Unless Cassie can actually trigger the precision, how can the game know that's she's immune to it? So the claim that " there was nothing to trigger " is demonstrably false
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Aar taking priority over an immunity in this particular situation is dumb, that's the whole point I'm trying to make here, especially for a champ whose main purpose is to counter fights like this one. I get what you're saying, sure it's preventing the buff before her immunity does but that's just dumb.
It’s not dumb at all. An immunity never occurs if the effect they’re immune to was never placed on the champion at all.
That's not the dumb part, the dumb part is that aar takes priority over her immunity.
What's your take on the nick fury -100% aar and Colossus situation? Did the bleed not apply because Colossus was immune or because Nick was unable to in the first place?
?
Why do you keep asking me that when it's pretty obvious I understand what you're saying I just think it's dumb regardless? Lol I'm just gonna copy and paste what someone else said above so I don't have to type another paragraph for like the fifth time:
"You can't gain a buff but the neutralize reduces your ability to trigger the buff you can't gain so you have a 100% chance to trigger the buff but a 0% chance to gain the buff and reducing the chance to trigger the buff causes bad things to happen to you even if you never gain the buff because it's a 0% chance for that to happen"
Because you never replied to it directly. But nevermind that.
So if you think the game should work ome way in one situation and another way in the same exact situation depending on what you want, then you want the game to be inconsistent. If you ask me, that's the dumb thing
The difference is one situation isn't punishing you, the other one is, big brain. If you're gonna make a comparison at least make a valid one lol
"Punishing you " is not a difference the game cares about. Why? Because it can easily be swapped to make it so that the interaction punishes the defender. Cassie Lang on a node that gives defender buffs? Wiccan can make those incinerates.
In both situation a champion tries to trigger something which even if they had succeeded in doing , an immunity would have prevented.
Unless Cassie can actually trigger the precision, how can the game know that's she's immune to it? So the claim that " there was nothing to trigger " is demonstrably false
Why wouldnt the game know? The game might not know but that dosent mean the game cant know.
It's trying to trigger a buff on cassie when it should trying to trigger a buff on her immunity, the effect should fall short never reaching cassie in the first place.
I feel your frustration, because i feel the same way. Still, it’s game mechanism that’s set up the way it is. Gotta accept it.
Let’s just accept neutralize as AAR. Let’s accept that buff immunity is ‘immunity’, just like bleed immunity on Thing (bleed procs to reduce rock stack, but he’s immune to it).
Just accept it, like I did. Not a fan of it, but I can go along with the rules.
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Aar taking priority over an immunity in this particular situation is dumb, that's the whole point I'm trying to make here, especially for a champ whose main purpose is to counter fights like this one. I get what you're saying, sure it's preventing the buff before her immunity does but that's just dumb.
It’s not dumb at all. An immunity never occurs if the effect they’re immune to was never placed on the champion at all.
That's not the dumb part, the dumb part is that aar takes priority over her immunity.
What's your take on the nick fury -100% aar and Colossus situation? Did the bleed not apply because Colossus was immune or because Nick was unable to in the first place?
?
Why do you keep asking me that when it's pretty obvious I understand what you're saying I just think it's dumb regardless? Lol I'm just gonna copy and paste what someone else said above so I don't have to type another paragraph for like the fifth time:
"You can't gain a buff but the neutralize reduces your ability to trigger the buff you can't gain so you have a 100% chance to trigger the buff but a 0% chance to gain the buff and reducing the chance to trigger the buff causes bad things to happen to you even if you never gain the buff because it's a 0% chance for that to happen"
Because you never replied to it directly. But nevermind that.
So if you think the game should work ome way in one situation and another way in the same exact situation depending on what you want, then you want the game to be inconsistent. If you ask me, that's the dumb thing
The difference is one situation isn't punishing you, the other one is, big brain. If you're gonna make a comparison at least make a valid one lol
"Punishing you " is not a difference the game cares about. Why? Because it can easily be swapped to make it so that the interaction punishes the defender. Cassie Lang on a node that gives defender buffs? Wiccan can make those incinerates.
In both situation a champion tries to trigger something which even if they had succeeded in doing , an immunity would have prevented.
Unless Cassie can actually trigger the precision, how can the game know that's she's immune to it? So the claim that " there was nothing to trigger " is demonstrably false
Correct, it is however a difference I care about since you're over here trying to prove a point with it.
What do you mean how can the game know? Did you know there's humans who code the game? Or did you think the game just appeared out of thin air?
There is in fact nothing to trigger, game's simply not coded that way.
I want to start of that I accept and understand that this is the way it is.
That said, I feel the same way as OP. A good analogy is statistics: a lot of people have biases that they feel should be right but are statistically incorrect. I'm not good enough in math to give examples but that's where the frustration comes from. That said, we all know this happens now so let's just stop the discussion here, as there have been numerous threads made about this in the past.
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Here's the issue. She doesn't prevent the buff from triggering. It tries to trigger and her immunity stops it before it is placed on her. Aar stops the trigger itself from trying to trigger.
Think of this situation. A Nick fury with 100% aar does a medium attack on a Colossus. No bleed is applied. Is it because Colossus is bleed immune or because Nick didn't have any ability accuracy to place bleed in the first place?
If this is true. is it true that my hulk could get a poison buff if he fights against someone that lowers his AA? Because I have never seen that happen.
@Karuseus is right, and raises the important point which is that immunity is not a simple state of being: some champions have additional effects based on their immunities. @Anly would benefit from remembering this...
Thing converts rock stacks into Fury passives when his immunity prevents a bleed.
Colossus's Sig ability can grant him extra armour stacks when his immunity prevents a bleed.
Cassie gains Pym particles when her (buff) immunity prevents a buff.
Spidey-2099 pauses his debuffs when his (buff) immunity prevents a buff.
Red Guardian gains shield charges when his buff immunity is triggered
And so on, but you get the idea...
Some champions even gain additional benefits from their opponents immunities. Just a few examples I can think of:
Namor gains Outrage when a non-robot triggers Bleed immunity.
Clare Voyant gains Clairvoyance charges when an opponent triggers any immunity
Gorr inflicts degeneration when the opponent triggers immunity to one of his Shadow magic debuffs.
Wiccan (Awakened) inflicts Degeneration when the opponent is immune to Shock
Masacre inflicts bursts of Energy damage when the opponent is immune to Incinerate
Hulkling gains Shapeshift charges when he triggers an immunity
Galan (Awakened) gains buffs when he triggers power burn immunity
And so on, but you get the idea...
All these abilities (and more) demonstrate that immunity is an active ability which needs to be checked/triggered. That check/trigger will only arise when an effect like Bleed/Shock/Precision buff is in the process of being applied.
If you were to rewrite the code of the game so that immunity to bleed meant 'don't even try to apply the bleed effect in the first place', then how would Colossus trigger his Sig ability Armour Ups?
If the code said 'don't even try to apply a buff to Cassie in the first place' then how would she gain the Pym particles from her buff immunity?
Sorry guys. This is how the game works for a lot of champions; and it's not going to change just so that the buff-immune Science champs who can already ignore Nullify, Fate Seal, Stagger, Loa, Spider Seals, Dorm/Mojo degeneration, Soul Barb, Burden of Might and Spite nodes also get to ignore Neutralise.
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Here's the issue. She doesn't prevent the buff from triggering. It tries to trigger and her immunity stops it before it is placed on her. Aar stops the trigger itself from trying to trigger.
Think of this situation. A Nick fury with 100% aar does a medium attack on a Colossus. No bleed is applied. Is it because Colossus is bleed immune or because Nick didn't have any ability accuracy to place bleed in the first place?
If this is true. is it true that my hulk could get a poison buff if he fights against someone that lowers his AA? Because I have never seen that happen.
Immunities are not affected by AAR in the sense that no matter how low your ability accuracy falls, if a champion is immune to a status effect, it will never be active on them. But that is not due to lack of trying. And if this 'try' can be prevented and punished that's another story
Buff immunes still get their buffs neutralized because AAR is checked before immunity is. Isn't a bug, it is a feature. Use someone immune to AAR, like AA, or has increased AA, like Longshot, to beat up wiccans. Alternatively you can use Quicksilver if there isn't a node placing buffs on you because he replaces dexterity so there is no dex buff period with him.
I do know how to counter Wiccan and I do have QS I just had no choice there cause it was either Cassie or Jessica, my draft wasn't the best. I just think it's a bit dumb that you get the incinerates on you when you can't even trigger the thing that places those incinerates on you in the first place.
You won't trigger incinerate with QS because he doesn't have a Dex buff to trigger at all. But buff immune champs have the ability to trigger it. It just gets prevented by immunity.
Wiccan gets in before the trigger happens and reduces the ability accuracy to trigger it and causes the incinerate.
I literally just said I know about QS, I just didn't draft him cause bad luck lol.
That still doesn't make sense though, nothing is triggering, there's nothing to prevent from triggering there cause she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place.
I didn't mention quicksilver as a counter. But to show how the mechanism works.
There is something to trigger and prevent. Even if you take neutralize out of the conversation, Cassie tries to trigger a precision buff and her immunity prevents it . That's how immunities work.
If you try to apply a bleed on Colossus, the bleed tries to trigger and his immunity prevents it. So there is something to trigger and something to prevent.
she's already preventing the buffs from triggering in the first place
Aar taking priority over an immunity in this particular situation is dumb, that's the whole point I'm trying to make here, especially for a champ whose main purpose is to counter fights like this one. I get what you're saying, sure it's preventing the buff before her immunity does but that's just dumb.
It’s not dumb at all. An immunity never occurs if the effect they’re immune to was never placed on the champion at all.
That's not the dumb part, the dumb part is that aar takes priority over her immunity.
What's your take on the nick fury -100% aar and Colossus situation? Did the bleed not apply because Colossus was immune or because Nick was unable to in the first place?
?
Why do you keep asking me that when it's pretty obvious I understand what you're saying I just think it's dumb regardless? Lol I'm just gonna copy and paste what someone else said above so I don't have to type another paragraph for like the fifth time:
"You can't gain a buff but the neutralize reduces your ability to trigger the buff you can't gain so you have a 100% chance to trigger the buff but a 0% chance to gain the buff and reducing the chance to trigger the buff causes bad things to happen to you even if you never gain the buff because it's a 0% chance for that to happen"
Because you never replied to it directly. But nevermind that.
So if you think the game should work ome way in one situation and another way in the same exact situation depending on what you want, then you want the game to be inconsistent. If you ask me, that's the dumb thing
The difference is one situation isn't punishing you, the other one is, big brain. If you're gonna make a comparison at least make a valid one lol
"Punishing you " is not a difference the game cares about. Why? Because it can easily be swapped to make it so that the interaction punishes the defender. Cassie Lang on a node that gives defender buffs? Wiccan can make those incinerates.
In both situation a champion tries to trigger something which even if they had succeeded in doing , an immunity would have prevented.
Unless Cassie can actually trigger the precision, how can the game know that's she's immune to it? So the claim that " there was nothing to trigger " is demonstrably false
Why wouldnt the game know? The game might not know but that dosent mean the game cant know.
It's trying to trigger a buff on cassie when it should trying to trigger a buff on her immunity, the effect should fall short never reaching cassie in the first place.
That is not how coding works. The computer doesn't know anything. You have to give it something it can use first, so when an effect a champion is immune to has a state of true, then the immunity is called
Comments
Nothing in this situation is trying to re trigger something that’s already triggered. I’m not sure what you mean.
“how can something try to trigger if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?”
Glad you asked.
The way it works is Spidey dexes -> he attempts to gain a buff -> the game is flagging this as a buff -> Spidey is immune to buffs -> immune call out pops up
When there’s a neutralise, the order is different
Spidey dexes -> neutralise reduces the ability accuracy of the buff -> the buff doesn’t attempt to trigger -> the game never knows that Spidey is immune to a buff that didn’t try to trigger
The issue here is with your wording “if it is impossible for that thing to trigger in the first place?”
The thing is - it’s not impossible for a buff to try to trigger on Spidey. It’s impossible for a buff to be active on Spidey. The buff has to try to trigger for Spidey to be immune.
Imagine this. You’re playing as Nick Fury and you have a 100% concussion on you. If you hit colossus with a medium attack and try and place a bleed, do you think there would still be an immune call out?
Do you think colossus would be immune to a bleed that never triggered?
It's not hand holding to explain the difference between triggering a buff and gaining it. They did it with defensive vs offensive ability accuracy, and that's why people aren't nearly as confused about that as they used to be. Even then, I still see people confused about which type of ability accuracy is responsible for what abilities because it's still easy to understand any non common sense reduction as a bug.
I mean that if they are immune they always have that immunity their immunity is triggered all the time.
Why does it automatically default to trying to trigger a buff? Why not just make an entirely different effect for it and or just remove the mastery entirely.
Colossus would still be immune to bleed even if the effect wasnt triggered? he has metal skin.
Players, quite rightly, don't execpt to get punished for not getting a buff they were never going to get, therefore the system shouldn't punish them.
The implementation of the system should follow that as anything else seems "rules lawyer" which is not a great design principal. Nobody reads the small print.
The game is consistent, it makes sense. Buff immunity is not neutralise immunity because that’s a separate thing, it’s an interaction we have to deal with. Buff immunity is strong in and of itself, it doesn’t need to counter everything a mystic can possibly do to counter buffs.
If you don’t understand how the game works here I can try and explain it again for you in a different way. If you understand that this is the way the game works, but you disagree, then that’s your right but this is a debate that’s happened several times, and kabam have weighed in on it. It’s not gonna change, so personally I don’t see much point in arguing it to death.
Let me know if I can help explain anything else.
Now, what I *would* like to see is a full glossary of effects, explaining what things are. Like an explanation of ability accuracy, and what buff immunes are.
But I don’t think it should extend to something that lays out that buff immune champions can fail to trigger buffs against neutralise. I think it needs to leave some space for players to find things out for themselves
If that’s what you’re hoping for too, then I’m glad we agree!
"You can't gain a buff but the neutralize reduces your ability to trigger the buff you can't gain so you have a 100% chance to trigger the buff but a 0% chance to gain the buff and reducing the chance to trigger the buff causes bad things to happen to you even if you never gain the buff because it's a 0% chance for that to happen"
So if you think the game should work ome way in one situation and another way in the same exact situation depending on what you want, then you want the game to be inconsistent. If you ask me, that's the dumb thing
In both situation a champion tries to trigger something which even if they had succeeded in doing , an immunity would have prevented.
Unless Cassie can actually trigger the precision, how can the game know that's she's immune to it? So the claim that " there was nothing to trigger " is demonstrably false
It's trying to trigger a buff on cassie when it should trying to trigger a buff on her immunity, the effect should fall short never reaching cassie in the first place.
I feel your frustration, because i feel the same way. Still, it’s game mechanism that’s set up the way it is. Gotta accept it.
Let’s just accept neutralize as AAR.
Let’s accept that buff immunity is ‘immunity’, just like bleed immunity on Thing (bleed procs to reduce rock stack, but he’s immune to it).
Just accept it, like I did. Not a fan of it, but I can go along with the rules.
What do you mean how can the game know? Did you know there's humans who code the game? Or did you think the game just appeared out of thin air?
There is in fact nothing to trigger, game's simply not coded that way.
That said, I feel the same way as OP. A good analogy is statistics: a lot of people have biases that they feel should be right but are statistically incorrect. I'm not good enough in math to give examples but that's where the frustration comes from. That said, we all know this happens now so let's just stop the discussion here, as there have been numerous threads made about this in the past.
Think of this situation. A Nick fury with 100% aar does a medium attack on a Colossus. No bleed is applied. Is it because Colossus is bleed immune or because Nick didn't have any ability accuracy to place bleed in the first place?
If this is true. is it true that my hulk could get a poison buff if he fights against someone that lowers his AA? Because I have never seen that happen.
- Thing converts rock stacks into Fury passives when his immunity prevents a bleed.
- Colossus's Sig ability can grant him extra armour stacks when his immunity prevents a bleed.
- Cassie gains Pym particles when her (buff) immunity prevents a buff.
- Spidey-2099 pauses his debuffs when his (buff) immunity prevents a buff.
- Red Guardian gains shield charges when his buff immunity is triggered
- And so on, but you get the idea...
Some champions even gain additional benefits from their opponents immunities. Just a few examples I can think of:- Namor gains Outrage when a non-robot triggers Bleed immunity.
- Clare Voyant gains Clairvoyance charges when an opponent triggers any immunity
- Gorr inflicts degeneration when the opponent triggers immunity to one of his Shadow magic debuffs.
- Wiccan (Awakened) inflicts Degeneration when the opponent is immune to Shock
- Masacre inflicts bursts of Energy damage when the opponent is immune to Incinerate
- Hulkling gains Shapeshift charges when he triggers an immunity
- Galan (Awakened) gains buffs when he triggers power burn immunity
- And so on, but you get the idea...
All these abilities (and more) demonstrate that immunity is an active ability which needs to be checked/triggered. That check/trigger will only arise when an effect like Bleed/Shock/Precision buff is in the process of being applied.If you were to rewrite the code of the game so that immunity to bleed meant 'don't even try to apply the bleed effect in the first place', then how would Colossus trigger his Sig ability Armour Ups?
If the code said 'don't even try to apply a buff to Cassie in the first place' then how would she gain the Pym particles from her buff immunity?
Sorry guys. This is how the game works for a lot of champions; and it's not going to change just so that the buff-immune Science champs who can already ignore Nullify, Fate Seal, Stagger, Loa, Spider Seals, Dorm/Mojo degeneration, Soul Barb, Burden of Might and Spite nodes also get to ignore Neutralise.
Buff immune champs don't (😉) need a buff...
Immunities are not affected by AAR in the sense that no matter how low your ability accuracy falls, if a champion is immune to a status effect, it will never be active on them. But that is not due to lack of trying. And if this 'try' can be prevented and punished that's another story