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hmm.. i like these new carinas challenges.. but this response from kabam miike is distasteful.

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  • Options
    FinalfurykFinalfuryk Posts: 215 ★★
    The hardest content will always be an item sink for me personally. I was hoping most of these challenges would require five stars like the Kang challenges do but I'm not too upset by everything. The simple fact of the matter is that there has been a ton of Everest content released in the past six months (Necropolis, Winter of Woe Deathless chase, these Carina challenges, even Raids to a certain extent) and only a little bit of content that isn't geared towards the most end game of end game players (Banquet event and the current Year of the Dragon). The game has a hard skill cap right now. There is no way to get to Valiant without exploring the necropolis considering how little tier 4 alpha is given out to Paragon players even if they are willing to spend. MCoC has never been a harder game then it is now for end game content, and it has also never been more complicated with seemingly each new champ having more and more complicated kits.

    I feel like Kabam feels like there is enough content for mid tier players at the moment. The majority of monthly content is not challenging to an end game player. There are plenty of opportunities to advance to Paragon doing the main story quest and monthly event quests. While I feel like the nerfing of all revive farming is lame like everyone else, I do think this isn't just a cash grab. They want certain content to be gated by skill as much as possible and have consequences if you can't beat it. Ultimately, it is geared to make you pay money in the game where as before it was free with revive farming which I will not dispute.

    I just feel like this time last year people were complaining that there wasn't enough to do. Now that there are long term challenges that you have to plan out and have the roster to match, I feel like people are complaining that too much stuff is designed for the 1%. I'm ultimately happy there is content to have potentially futureproof the game. My current goals are to explore the rest of Act 8 to get ready for Act 8-4, slowly build up revives to explore Necropolis and only then take on the new Carina's challenges. The deathless chase is having me deal with a lot of stuff I normally would say I'd get to eventually and then ignore because the rewards are outdated. I think ultimately some people just have to lose the FOMO and accept they might end up with a six star deathless champ instead of a seven star or they might not be valiant by July 4th.

    I like the game is saying you can't just expect to sleepwalk through everything anymore. It's making me want to get better at the game and use champs I don't normally use. I felt a real sense of accomplishment getting through Necropolis and getting the 7 star Deathless Guillotine. I think the challenges are super hard and a pain and I'll have to learn champs I never play and rank champs I'd never rank, but I also appreciate the variety they are bringing in.

  • Options
    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,235 ★★★★★

    Plantesan said:

    ra_wr said:



    not his entire response. just the one paragraph i have screenshotted.

    what stash of potions and revives are you mentioning? back to back to back everest content IS fun, but damaging to our stash of revives and potions we may or may not have. ESPECIALLY due to the removal or grinding potions and revives, AND not receiving a heads up about this content way in advance (2-4 weeks in advance).

    also, designing content not to be made itemless is a vague statement. what are you designing content off of? content like this should be made on the basis of "doable WITHOUT an abundance of revives and potions IF skilled enough" if your designing content that is intentionally made for the user to revive constantly, then i want no part of that and im sure many of us wouldnt want to be either.

    You're mad because he says use some items?
    I could be wrong on this, but I’m going to guess it was more how it was presented/reads? *as in it could potentially sound condescending to some folks* 🤷‍♂️
    I think it's just an excuse for people to be mad at Miike. They insult him, treat him poorly, all kinds of things and then take things like this and blow it up like he personally went to their house, knocked on their door and slapped them in the face.

    He's speaking truthfully about what the content is. This is exactly what they said it would be and people are surprised it's difficult.
    Is this what all those posts mean when they say it’s a slap in the face
  • Options
    Vegeta9001Vegeta9001 Posts: 1,547 ★★★★★
    Difference being, I don't mind using items when the challenges are fun and not aimed at maybe 20-30 people only and requiring you to rank up 1 or 2 champs in a limited timeframe. The Carina ones at least aren't time limited, Necropolis was super fun, WoW is just trash, if the first fights anything to go by.

    The new challenges are definitely an indicator that they're moving away from content aimed at the majority and more towards content aimed at the top 0.1% maybe 0.01%, or for the average endgame player to just dump entire max revive stashes on. I'm luckily a bit above average since I've been playing at a higher level since the launch of the game, but I'm still nowhere close to people like MSD so some of these are going to body me.
  • Options
    DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 21,536 ★★★★★
    Wicket329 said:

    Plantesan said:

    ra_wr said:



    not his entire response. just the one paragraph i have screenshotted.

    what stash of potions and revives are you mentioning? back to back to back everest content IS fun, but damaging to our stash of revives and potions we may or may not have. ESPECIALLY due to the removal or grinding potions and revives, AND not receiving a heads up about this content way in advance (2-4 weeks in advance).

    also, designing content not to be made itemless is a vague statement. what are you designing content off of? content like this should be made on the basis of "doable WITHOUT an abundance of revives and potions IF skilled enough" if your designing content that is intentionally made for the user to revive constantly, then i want no part of that and im sure many of us wouldnt want to be either.

    You're mad because he says use some items?
    I could be wrong on this, but I’m going to guess it was more how it was presented/reads? *as in it could potentially sound condescending to some folks* 🤷‍♂️
    I think it's just an excuse for people to be mad at Miike. They insult him, treat him poorly, all kinds of things and then take things like this and blow it up like he personally went to their house, knocked on their door and slapped them in the face.

    He's speaking truthfully about what the content is. This is exactly what they said it would be and people are surprised it's difficult.
    Is this what all those posts mean when they say it’s a slap in the face
    I guess he's really been going to their homes and slapping the the face. Who knew he had the time.
  • Options
    FinalfurykFinalfuryk Posts: 215 ★★
    Ortoun said:

    For me at least, it's that they claimed that nee content wouldn't be this over the top anymore, because the revive farm tied their hands, well, revive farm is gone, and from overflow would have expired by now, but new content is still an item fest.

    I wasn't happy about the revive farm going away, but was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that new content would be more thoughtfully designed, but guess that hasn't happened yet.

    I feel like most new content in the monthly event quest, monthly side quest and Act 8 stuff isn't necessary for revives unless you screw up or maybe some of the bosses. The only time I need to use revives is for the Paragon gauntlet when they don't let you use a choice node. The challenges and Winter of Woe stuff feels like the exception not the rule.
  • Options
    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,235 ★★★★★

    Difference being, I don't mind using items when the challenges are fun and not aimed at maybe 20-30 people only and requiring you to rank up 1 or 2 champs in a limited timeframe. The Carina ones at least aren't time limited, Necropolis was super fun, WoW is just trash, if the first fights anything to go by.

    The new challenges are definitely an indicator that they're moving away from content aimed at the majority and more towards content aimed at the top 0.1% maybe 0.01%, or for the average endgame player to just dump entire max revive stashes on. I'm luckily a bit above average since I've been playing at a higher level since the launch of the game, but I'm still nowhere close to people like MSD so some of these are going to body me.

    You cannot say that Kabam as a whole is moving away from content for the majority of the playerbase. The vast majority of content in the game is for most of the playerbase. All of story content, every EQ and SQ every month, and so much more is targeted towards everybody being able to do it.

    We had two pieces of high end content come out in close proximity to each other. We also had the Lunar New Year, special Incursions, EQ and SQ, and we have 8.4 on the horizon. Pretending like “oh this is it, only super challenging endgame content from now on!” is nonsense.
  • Options
    Vegeta9001Vegeta9001 Posts: 1,547 ★★★★★
    Wicket329 said:

    Difference being, I don't mind using items when the challenges are fun and not aimed at maybe 20-30 people only and requiring you to rank up 1 or 2 champs in a limited timeframe. The Carina ones at least aren't time limited, Necropolis was super fun, WoW is just trash, if the first fights anything to go by.

    The new challenges are definitely an indicator that they're moving away from content aimed at the majority and more towards content aimed at the top 0.1% maybe 0.01%, or for the average endgame player to just dump entire max revive stashes on. I'm luckily a bit above average since I've been playing at a higher level since the launch of the game, but I'm still nowhere close to people like MSD so some of these are going to body me.

    You cannot say that Kabam as a whole is moving away from content for the majority of the playerbase. The vast majority of content in the game is for most of the playerbase. All of story content, every EQ and SQ every month, and so much more is targeted towards everybody being able to do it.

    We had two pieces of high end content come out in close proximity to each other. We also had the Lunar New Year, special Incursions, EQ and SQ, and we have 8.4 on the horizon. Pretending like “oh this is it, only super challenging endgame content from now on!” is nonsense.
    EQ is a rolling monthly content, it's coming regardless, Incursions is just incursions with a fresh coat of paint that happens every now and then, neither are new content, and the side quest is copy paste of the old rifts. Again, none of the things you mentioned is "new content"

    Out of curiosity, what was your item usage on Necropolis 100% or WoW AbsMan Robot objective?
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 19,081 Guardian
    Plantesan said:

    ra_wr said:



    not his entire response. just the one paragraph i have screenshotted.

    what stash of potions and revives are you mentioning? back to back to back everest content IS fun, but damaging to our stash of revives and potions we may or may not have. ESPECIALLY due to the removal or grinding potions and revives, AND not receiving a heads up about this content way in advance (2-4 weeks in advance).

    also, designing content not to be made itemless is a vague statement. what are you designing content off of? content like this should be made on the basis of "doable WITHOUT an abundance of revives and potions IF skilled enough" if your designing content that is intentionally made for the user to revive constantly, then i want no part of that and im sure many of us wouldnt want to be either.

    You're mad because he says use some items?
    I could be wrong on this, but I’m going to guess it was more how it was presented/reads? *as in it could potentially sound condescending to some folks* 🤷‍♂️
    I reread the passage in question, and again in context, and I can find no problem with the statement as presented. Sure, people can read anything they want into anything, but I think people expect way more sympathy from every single thing they read than is reasonable to expect.

    For people who want the ultra sympathetic version, here it is:

    I understand many people feel like this content should be achievable by a wide range of end game players without resorting to significant item use, but that's not the intended difficulty of the content and while Kabam expects the highest skilled players might be able to do this without spending items, most of the players for whom this content was designed will likely have to spend at least some items on it, not because the content is designed to drain items, but because for all difficult content there will always be players who could do it, if only they spent one revive. And there will be players just under them that could do it if only they spend five revives. And others who could do it, if only they spent ten revives.

    Kabam doesn't decide where to draw the line, the players do, and Kabam doesn't force players who can do it with twenty but can't do it with nineteen to fail. The players decide if they want to spend one revive or a hundred, or zero. Whether they do so depends in part on how much they value the rewards in the content, and that's also a player choice. It is not up to Kabam to make the rewards so high that everyone will want to do the content, because that will feel to many like they are being forced to do it. Every player will assign a particular value to those rewards, and then compare that with their own costs to do it, which depends on their skill level.

    How players acquire the resources they need to complete challenge content is also up to them. They might have saved up resources for this situation. Or they might have used them up and need to acquire more. They can grind them out in-game, or they can spend money to buy them. How they do this is also up to them, but there's no specific requirement for challenging content to provide a quick, easy, and free method to get them.


    Thing is, if Kabam Miike responded to every post the way I did above, there would be no room on the forums for the players to post anything. Also, people would still be catching up on reading the responses he made to 12.0.
  • Options
    Vegeta9001Vegeta9001 Posts: 1,547 ★★★★★
    Wicket329 said:

    Wicket329 said:

    Difference being, I don't mind using items when the challenges are fun and not aimed at maybe 20-30 people only and requiring you to rank up 1 or 2 champs in a limited timeframe. The Carina ones at least aren't time limited, Necropolis was super fun, WoW is just trash, if the first fights anything to go by.

    The new challenges are definitely an indicator that they're moving away from content aimed at the majority and more towards content aimed at the top 0.1% maybe 0.01%, or for the average endgame player to just dump entire max revive stashes on. I'm luckily a bit above average since I've been playing at a higher level since the launch of the game, but I'm still nowhere close to people like MSD so some of these are going to body me.

    You cannot say that Kabam as a whole is moving away from content for the majority of the playerbase. The vast majority of content in the game is for most of the playerbase. All of story content, every EQ and SQ every month, and so much more is targeted towards everybody being able to do it.

    We had two pieces of high end content come out in close proximity to each other. We also had the Lunar New Year, special Incursions, EQ and SQ, and we have 8.4 on the horizon. Pretending like “oh this is it, only super challenging endgame content from now on!” is nonsense.
    EQ is a rolling monthly content, it's coming regardless, Incursions is just incursions with a fresh coat of paint that happens every now and then, neither are new content, and the side quest is copy paste of the old rifts. Again, none of the things you mentioned is "new content"

    Out of curiosity, what was your item usage on Necropolis 100% or WoW AbsMan Robot objective?
    That’s literally the point! There is constant content for players below the pinnacle of the game! Your original post did not say “new content,” it said content, which there is a ton of. Pretending like it doesn’t exist just because you take it for granted is silly, it still requires dev team effort. And Kabam Crashed has already commented saying that due to scheduling delays these things hit near each other when not originally planned, and that less intense content is also planned.

    And also lol, why try to make a conversation about the direction of the game into a personal comparison? Seems like a weird way to derail what could be meaningful conversation. I’ll bite and answer it, I did Abs Man with Darkhawk in about six revives, but with three really bad runs in there. Did Hulk with two, and Sandman with one, in case you wanted more credentials for some reason.
    Because the way you're phrasing it makes it seem like it was fun and challenging content. Which, admittedly Necropolis was, and I've always said that. But even though I only used I'm pretty sure 5 revives with a r4 unboosted Viv, I have the post on here somewhere, even with 7 revives used across all 3 challenges, that absorbing man was a very poorly designed Fight/Challenge combo. Some of the Carina's challenges have the same restrictive and boring selections. There comes a point when the rewards do not outweigh spending that many resources ranking up a bunch of fodder 6*s to r5 paired with the revives used.

    The recurring theme is that the content creators, most of which are considerably higher in skill ceiling than some of the high end whales are having more input in designs, it's natural that it's going to be less fun and challenging to normal "skilled players" let alone regular players. Can I do these challenges, yes, and honestly, at a relatively low item usage. But if I'm not going to have fun with them I'm not going to do them. Already done the Spidey ones, might do the Gauntlet ones, ain't touching the Grief ones. Thats all I'm saying on the topic because I'm not about to sit here arguing because this isn't the place for it and I also have better things to do.
  • Options
    RoggamRoggam Posts: 91
    Mike is getting more callused because people have lost their (insert personal favorite explicative) minds… not doing this content does not have a negative impact on your experience. If you are OCD enough to complete everything in this game then open your wallet for the admission price. Or listen to Nancy Raegan and just say no.
  • Options
    Wicket329Wicket329 Posts: 3,235 ★★★★★
    Roggam said:

    Mike is getting more callused because people have lost their (insert personal favorite explicative) minds… not doing this content does not have a negative impact on your experience. If you are OCD enough to complete everything in this game then open your wallet for the admission price. Or listen to Nancy Raegan and just say no.

    Lmao this has to be the first time Nancy Reagan was name dropped on the mcoc forums, right? Amazing.
  • Options
    OrtounOrtoun Posts: 635 ★★★

    Ortoun said:

    For me at least, it's that they claimed that nee content wouldn't be this over the top anymore, because the revive farm tied their hands, well, revive farm is gone, and from overflow would have expired by now, but new content is still an item fest.

    I wasn't happy about the revive farm going away, but was willing to give them the benefit of the doubt that new content would be more thoughtfully designed, but guess that hasn't happened yet.

    I feel like most new content in the monthly event quest, monthly side quest and Act 8 stuff isn't necessary for revives unless you screw up or maybe some of the bosses. The only time I need to use revives is for the Paragon gauntlet when they don't let you use a choice node. The challenges and Winter of Woe stuff feels like the exception not the rule.
    That stuff was almost never a ridiculous item sink to begin with though, my understanding was that the revive farm nerf was directly because they didn't want to trivialize challenge content, eq and Sq are not challenge content. Even if the current stuff is an exception, it still feels scummy to keep designing content like we still have free access to hundreds of revives, when that is clearly no longer the case. If anything they should have undertuned stuff to start, not come out full throttle like they did with WoW and some of these new challenges.
  • Options
    PlantesanPlantesan Posts: 335 ★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Plantesan said:

    ra_wr said:



    not his entire response. just the one paragraph i have screenshotted.

    what stash of potions and revives are you mentioning? back to back to back everest content IS fun, but damaging to our stash of revives and potions we may or may not have. ESPECIALLY due to the removal or grinding potions and revives, AND not receiving a heads up about this content way in advance (2-4 weeks in advance).

    also, designing content not to be made itemless is a vague statement. what are you designing content off of? content like this should be made on the basis of "doable WITHOUT an abundance of revives and potions IF skilled enough" if your designing content that is intentionally made for the user to revive constantly, then i want no part of that and im sure many of us wouldnt want to be either.

    You're mad because he says use some items?
    I could be wrong on this, but I’m going to guess it was more how it was presented/reads? *as in it could potentially sound condescending to some folks* 🤷‍♂️
    I reread the passage in question, and again in context, and I can find no problem with the statement as presented. Sure, people can read anything they want into anything, but I think people expect way more sympathy from every single thing they read than is reasonable to expect.

    For people who want the ultra sympathetic version, here it is:

    I understand many people feel like this content should be achievable by a wide range of end game players without resorting to significant item use, but that's not the intended difficulty of the content and while Kabam expects the highest skilled players might be able to do this without spending items, most of the players for whom this content was designed will likely have to spend at least some items on it, not because the content is designed to drain items, but because for all difficult content there will always be players who could do it, if only they spent one revive. And there will be players just under them that could do it if only they spend five revives. And others who could do it, if only they spent ten revives.

    Kabam doesn't decide where to draw the line, the players do, and Kabam doesn't force players who can do it with twenty but can't do it with nineteen to fail. The players decide if they want to spend one revive or a hundred, or zero. Whether they do so depends in part on how much they value the rewards in the content, and that's also a player choice. It is not up to Kabam to make the rewards so high that everyone will want to do the content, because that will feel to many like they are being forced to do it. Every player will assign a particular value to those rewards, and then compare that with their own costs to do it, which depends on their skill level.

    How players acquire the resources they need to complete challenge content is also up to them. They might have saved up resources for this situation. Or they might have used them up and need to acquire more. They can grind them out in-game, or they can spend money to buy them. How they do this is also up to them, but there's no specific requirement for challenging content to provide a quick, easy, and free method to get them.


    Thing is, if Kabam Miike responded to every post the way I did above, there would be no room on the forums for the players to post anything. Also, people would still be catching up on reading the responses he made to 12.0.
    Wound be an improvement based on previous messages, to be honest, heh. Personal judgment aside…I was attempting to point out a possibility that OP might have behind the message, Nothing more 👍
  • Options
    ra_wrra_wr Posts: 63

    Plantesan said:

    ra_wr said:



    not his entire response. just the one paragraph i have screenshotted.

    what stash of potions and revives are you mentioning? back to back to back everest content IS fun, but damaging to our stash of revives and potions we may or may not have. ESPECIALLY due to the removal or grinding potions and revives, AND not receiving a heads up about this content way in advance (2-4 weeks in advance).

    also, designing content not to be made itemless is a vague statement. what are you designing content off of? content like this should be made on the basis of "doable WITHOUT an abundance of revives and potions IF skilled enough" if your designing content that is intentionally made for the user to revive constantly, then i want no part of that and im sure many of us wouldnt want to be either.

    You're mad because he says use some items?
    I could be wrong on this, but I’m going to guess it was more how it was presented/reads? *as in it could potentially sound condescending to some folks* 🤷‍♂️
    I think it's just an excuse for people to be mad at Miike. They insult him, treat him poorly, all kinds of things and then take things like this and blow it up like he personally went to their house, knocked on their door and slapped them in the face.

    He's speaking truthfully about what the content is. This is exactly what they said it would be and people are surprised it's difficult.
    there is no excuse to me mad at someone here.

    his statement is vague. they gave us no time to prepare for this challenge. and tell us to use "our stash of items" when they nerfed almost all item grinding to the ground to a day-to-day basis.

    the way that this month has been going for this game, (worst monthly event aka rifts back again, WOW abs man, even more ai and input issues being IGNORED, and more) causes a lack of reason for me to play for longer than 6 months ESPECIALLY if they continue to do what they did last year with battlerealm brawl.

    im for one who supports the difficulty of this challenge btw. but this response from miike is distasteful and ignorant of what the general playerbase has, and feels.


  • Options
    ReignkingTWReignkingTW Posts: 2,707 ★★★★★
    ra_wr said:

    Plantesan said:

    ra_wr said:



    not his entire response. just the one paragraph i have screenshotted.

    what stash of potions and revives are you mentioning? back to back to back everest content IS fun, but damaging to our stash of revives and potions we may or may not have. ESPECIALLY due to the removal or grinding potions and revives, AND not receiving a heads up about this content way in advance (2-4 weeks in advance).

    also, designing content not to be made itemless is a vague statement. what are you designing content off of? content like this should be made on the basis of "doable WITHOUT an abundance of revives and potions IF skilled enough" if your designing content that is intentionally made for the user to revive constantly, then i want no part of that and im sure many of us wouldnt want to be either.

    You're mad because he says use some items?
    I could be wrong on this, but I’m going to guess it was more how it was presented/reads? *as in it could potentially sound condescending to some folks* 🤷‍♂️
    I think it's just an excuse for people to be mad at Miike. They insult him, treat him poorly, all kinds of things and then take things like this and blow it up like he personally went to their house, knocked on their door and slapped them in the face.

    He's speaking truthfully about what the content is. This is exactly what they said it would be and people are surprised it's difficult.
    there is no excuse to me mad at someone here.

    his statement is vague. they gave us no time to prepare for this challenge. and tell us to use "our stash of items" when they nerfed almost all item grinding to the ground to a day-to-day basis.

    the way that this month has been going for this game, (worst monthly event aka rifts back again, WOW abs man, even more ai and input issues being IGNORED, and more) causes a lack of reason for me to play for longer than 6 months ESPECIALLY if they continue to do what they did last year with battlerealm brawl.

    im for one who supports the difficulty of this challenge btw. but this response from miike is distasteful and ignorant of what the general playerbase has, and feels.


    Considering this is permanent content, time to prepare is moot.
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