Current Champion Design Team

J0eySn0wJ0eySn0w Member Posts: 978 ★★★★
I just want to start by saying this is going to be a long read, so thank you in advance if you spend the time to go through it.

There’s a problem with the current design team, and while many players may not realize it yet, they eventually will if things continue this way. The approach to defensive champions is flawed and unfair. I’ve described it as "bullying by the designers." It feels like they’re putting you in a cage to fight a bear with your bare hands, and when they’re feeling generous, they give you a wooden sword. They continue to introduce mechanics and interactions that are extremely punishing, while giving attackers no reasonable way to effectively deal with or manage them. There’s a clear intent to force damage at all costs, with VERY LITTLE to NO options for damage mitigation. Defenders like Photon, Bullseye, Onslaught, Serpent, and Enchantress have abilities that either shouldn’t exist in their current form or need to be toned down. These defenders are going to be difficult to handle in end-game content that fully explores their defensive potential. Either we’ll have nodes that assist attackers in countering their kits, or nodes that disable those kits entirely.

I started noticing this trend when Photon was released, or maybe it started with her. If you take Photon as an example – I want players to realize this – she has hard counters like Crossbones, Mantis, and Falcon. But is that truly how we should judge if a defender is fair? Keep in mind that these hard counters often shut her down completely from the root, preventing her abilities from ever activating.

So what happens when the hard counters don’t work? Is there any chance at all of beating the defender? Can skillful play at least make a difference? Or do you have to nuke them down before their abilities activate? What if it’s an Abyss or Necropolis-level health pool? Is there any balance or reasonableness in their kit?

Consider Photon’s defensive abilities:
- Her specials eventually become undexable, partly unblockable, and some fully unblockable.
- The parts you can block require a skill ask – a “well-timed” block can mitigate the damage. Fair enough.
- However, she reduces your block proficiency by a sizable amount. With her increased attack and the block proficiency reduction, it’s almost as bad as taking the full special damage. So, here’s your “wooden sword.”
- So, how do you avoid this inevitable damage if you can’t shut her down at the root? Is this fair or reasonable?

I won’t even start with Serpent; he deserves his own write-up, which I’ve already prepared. I’m still contemplating whether it’s even worth posting. We’re fortunate Bullseye was updated, etc.

If there were ever boundaries, the designers have started encroaching on our space, leaving attackers with very little room to maneuver. Our tools for tackling challenges are being reduced. Special attacks are becoming more difficult to evade, blocking them is becoming more costly, we can’t dex them, they’re becoming unblockable, and masteries are being nullified. What’s next? This is happening far too frequently. There’s no information on whether we’re receiving new tools or masteries to help us deal with these changes. New champions don’t seem to have mechanics or abilities that help either.

When enough people justify Photon, we get Serpent. When enough people justify Serpent, we’ll get something worse than Serpent.

I can’t help but imagine how this current design team, especially if DLL is involved, would have designed some of our old favorite defenders in 2023/2024.

Doom:
- While his aura is active, special attacks cannot be avoided with the Dexterity mastery.
- While his aura is active, nullified buffs deal an instant burst of Shock damage for X amount.
- While stunned, his aura is paused for 2 seconds.

Void:
- Intimidating Presence debuffs, once applied, can never be removed. Or, if they’re feeling generous:
- When Intimidating Presence debuffs are removed, they apply a combo deficit of 10 to the attacker.

I could go on about how many champions’ defensive abilities can easily be rendered unfair and unbalanced.

Anyway, thank you for reading. I hope Kabam reevaluates what they’ve been doing with regard to recent champions' defensive abilities. And I hope they reconsider Serpent’s rebalance decision.
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Comments

  • PT_99PT_99 Member Posts: 4,476 ★★★★★

    I'm saying this, photon and even serpent is not as unfair as domino when she was released.

    Even havok used to be a hell of a defender at that time since tech class was severely underpowered and there aren't many good champs who can gain armor up.

    Just push him to sp2 lol
  • captain_rogerscaptain_rogers Member Posts: 9,414 ★★★★★
    PT_99 said:

    I'm saying this, photon and even serpent is not as unfair as domino when she was released.

    Even havok used to be a hell of a defender at that time since tech class was severely underpowered and there aren't many good champs who can gain armor up.

    Just push him to sp2 lol
    When he was released, his specials are little tough to dex by most players, and he loves to throw sp1 immediately he fills a bar of power. He used to be the de facto AW boss for months.
  • Emilia90Emilia90 Member Posts: 3,447 ★★★★★
    “Defenders like Photon, Bullseye, Onslaught, Serpent, and Enchantress have abilities that either shouldn’t exist in their current form or need to be toned down“

    No other than serpent all of them are very much fair and have a ton of options. If you’re asking them to remove what makes them hard, that’s not happening lmao. Domino needs a hyper specific counter too, there have always been defenders like that
  • Awesomep12Awesomep12 Member Posts: 1,268 ★★★
    J0eySn0w said:

    I just want to start by saying this is going to be a long read, so thank you in advance if you spend the time to go through it.

    There’s a problem with the current design team, and while many players may not realize it yet, they eventually will if things continue this way. The approach to defensive champions is flawed and unfair. I’ve described it as "bullying by the designers." It feels like they’re putting you in a cage to fight a bear with your bare hands, and when they’re feeling generous, they give you a wooden sword. They continue to introduce mechanics and interactions that are extremely punishing, while giving attackers no reasonable way to effectively deal with or manage them. There’s a clear intent to force damage at all costs, with VERY LITTLE to NO options for damage mitigation. Defenders like Photon, Bullseye, Onslaught, Serpent, and Enchantress have abilities that either shouldn’t exist in their current form or need to be toned down. These defenders are going to be difficult to handle in end-game content that fully explores their defensive potential. Either we’ll have nodes that assist attackers in countering their kits, or nodes that disable those kits entirely.

    I started noticing this trend when Photon was released, or maybe it started with her. If you take Photon as an example – I want players to realize this – she has hard counters like Crossbones, Mantis, and Falcon. But is that truly how we should judge if a defender is fair? Keep in mind that these hard counters often shut her down completely from the root, preventing her abilities from ever activating.

    So what happens when the hard counters don’t work? Is there any chance at all of beating the defender? Can skillful play at least make a difference? Or do you have to nuke them down before their abilities activate? What if it’s an Abyss or Necropolis-level health pool? Is there any balance or reasonableness in their kit?

    Consider Photon’s defensive abilities:
    - Her specials eventually become undexable, partly unblockable, and some fully unblockable.
    - The parts you can block require a skill ask – a “well-timed” block can mitigate the damage. Fair enough.
    - However, she reduces your block proficiency by a sizable amount. With her increased attack and the block proficiency reduction, it’s almost as bad as taking the full special damage. So, here’s your “wooden sword.”
    - So, how do you avoid this inevitable damage if you can’t shut her down at the root? Is this fair or reasonable?

    I won’t even start with Serpent; he deserves his own write-up, which I’ve already prepared. I’m still contemplating whether it’s even worth posting. We’re fortunate Bullseye was updated, etc.

    If there were ever boundaries, the designers have started encroaching on our space, leaving attackers with very little room to maneuver. Our tools for tackling challenges are being reduced. Special attacks are becoming more difficult to evade, blocking them is becoming more costly, we can’t dex them, they’re becoming unblockable, and masteries are being nullified. What’s next? This is happening far too frequently. There’s no information on whether we’re receiving new tools or masteries to help us deal with these changes. New champions don’t seem to have mechanics or abilities that help either.

    When enough people justify Photon, we get Serpent. When enough people justify Serpent, we’ll get something worse than Serpent.

    I can’t help but imagine how this current design team, especially if DLL is involved, would have designed some of our old favorite defenders in 2023/2024.

    Doom:
    - While his aura is active, special attacks cannot be avoided with the Dexterity mastery.
    - While his aura is active, nullified buffs deal an instant burst of Shock damage for X amount.
    - While stunned, his aura is paused for 2 seconds.

    Void:
    - Intimidating Presence debuffs, once applied, can never be removed. Or, if they’re feeling generous:
    - When Intimidating Presence debuffs are removed, they apply a combo deficit of 10 to the attacker.

    I could go on about how many champions’ defensive abilities can easily be rendered unfair and unbalanced.

    Anyway, thank you for reading. I hope Kabam reevaluates what they’ve been doing with regard to recent champions' defensive abilities. And I hope they reconsider Serpent’s rebalance decision.

    Leave the workers in the basement alone! They're already being forced to work 200 hours a week and love off of what the rats left! They don't deserve abuse from the community too
  • Awesomep12Awesomep12 Member Posts: 1,268 ★★★
    Sorry I accidentally quoted the entire post. My bad
  • FieryOasisFieryOasis Member Posts: 13
    This seems like natural progression to me. 2022, in my opinion, had some really amazing attacker releases. 2023 still had great attackers but towards the end of 2023 and into 2024, we started getting these challenging defenders. I can't predict the future but I think 2025 will be ripe for some strong attackers now that we have well-defined defensive threats in each class to counter. It would be pretty meaningless to just release attackers with bigger and bigger numbers.

    Instead, those great attackers will also make fighting serpent or enchantress or onslaught or photon easier giving them more purpose than steamrolling content that our roster can already do.
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 7,487 ★★★★★
    edited September 9

    This seems like natural progression to me. 2022, in my opinion, had some really amazing attacker releases. 2023 still had great attackers but towards the end of 2023 and into 2024, we started getting these challenging defenders. I can't predict the future but I think 2025 will be ripe for some strong attackers now that we have well-defined defensive threats in each class to counter. It would be pretty meaningless to just release attackers with bigger and bigger numbers.

    Instead, those great attackers will also make fighting serpent or enchantress or onslaught or photon easier giving them more purpose than steamrolling content that our roster can already do.

    2025 is when defenders start turning off parry, dexterity alongside every mastery you have invested in.

    Let’s prepare ourselves for the inevitable
  • J0eySn0wJ0eySn0w Member Posts: 978 ★★★★
    Asher1_1 said:

    I whole paragraph & time wasted 🤦🤦
    There was a time Ironman IW was consider hard defender then the blade era came then many other unique & hard champ gets released .so are the counters are there.

    U were there when ROL was first introduced or not ?

    Do u know how a game dies - it gets repetitive every content feels like same just run throw it ,no challenge ,no uniqueness ,then player don't play.

    The game has been fine overall since its inception. We’ve had issues along the way, but we’ve communicated those concerns, and Kabam has responded. However, what we’re experiencing now feels different. It’s the beginning of something that, if not addressed or communicated properly, will lead to a lot of frustration. Look at how the community reacted to Serpent’s rebalance decision. I’m not against improvements or new mechanics. For instance, when Cosmic champions started gaining nullify immunity, and then neutralize was introduced, we were fine with it. It felt like a natural progression.

    There are people behind Kabam, and like anyone else, they can make mistakes. But what some of you may not be noticing is how certain basic gameplay mechanics are being gradually encroached upon. Champions are starting to disable core functions like parry, willpower, dexterity, and combining that with unblockable attacks, etc. Some champions even have a combination of these abilities. Where does this lead? Is it just a one-off? Will we get new abilities or tools to help manage these increasingly upgraded defenders?

    Masteries have remained the same for a long time, but now defenders are interfering with them easily. Is there an upgrade coming for masteries? We have no idea when or if that will happen, at least not to my knowledge.
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 7,487 ★★★★★
  • Grub88Grub88 Member Posts: 360 ★★★
    They will never change masteries now they have embedded them into champion kits, its all over for masteries
  • Giantwalrus56Giantwalrus56 Member Posts: 985 ★★★★
    EdisonLaw said:

    While some of the recently released defenders are annoying & have (imo)some unnecessary mechanics, where we disagree is with you specifically mentioning DLL. None of us know if he wanted the champs he released to be this challenging. He might of been tasked to do so. Are his champs challenging? To us, yes. To kabam, I guess not. He's not the only champ designer. If you're going to be frustrated, that's fine. Justifiably in your case. Singling out one designer could possibly lead to a witch hunt.
  • EdisonLawEdisonLaw Member Posts: 7,487 ★★★★★
    PT_99 said:

    I think what would happen if Herc was released today?
    He probably wouldn't have burst, immortality pause on hits and long sp2 stun.

    Herc would probably still have the burst, but the immortality would only last a fixed amount of time (like IHulk)
  • LokxLokx Member Posts: 1,319 ★★★★
    They’re creating defenders where hard counters are hard to come by. And not every single champ will have a 100% hard counter. I think what they’re trying to do is create more diverse roster choices in peoples decks. Before photon etc you could put arch angel, human torch, and nimrod and basically counter 90% of the most difficult defenders. Which could be banned but then most defenders could be taken out by herc, cgr and hulkling etc.

    Creating defenders who require more skill than button mashing is probably their goal for how they want the game to go long term. You have to remember that they already have a idea on how the game will look a year from now while we can only see as far as this month.

    I do think serpent needs a tune down but if you recall his balance update announcement, they expressed their happiness with the fact people have opted to use sorcerer supreme, a champion who would not be many peoples top choice in a bg deck. This obviously means that they’re happy people are opting to use previously disregarded old champs and bringing life into them. 10 years in and i think kabam is attempting a new adjustment in how they design and deal with defenders.

    There are things i don’t like, like the mastery shut down. But we just have to see how the game develops.
  • BigBlueOxBigBlueOx Member Posts: 2,325 ★★★★★
    You know what’s crazy… is how stubborn they are to tweak any 2024 champs. They are all perfect on target champs per our balancing team… but then let’s think of this in term ls of 2023 champs. Shuri would have never been buffed into relevance, who cares if her kit wasn’t practical.
  • PT_99PT_99 Member Posts: 4,476 ★★★★★
    EdisonLaw said:

    This seems like natural progression to me. 2022, in my opinion, had some really amazing attacker releases. 2023 still had great attackers but towards the end of 2023 and into 2024, we started getting these challenging defenders. I can't predict the future but I think 2025 will be ripe for some strong attackers now that we have well-defined defensive threats in each class to counter. It would be pretty meaningless to just release attackers with bigger and bigger numbers.

    Instead, those great attackers will also make fighting serpent or enchantress or onslaught or photon easier giving them more purpose than steamrolling content that our roster can already do.

    2025 is when defenders start turning off parry, dexterity alongside every mastery you have invested in.

    Let’s prepare ourselves for the inevitable
    Onslaught already punish you in the ass of you parry him
    And he also have crushed
  • LuciferiamdevilLuciferiamdevil Member Posts: 80
    I agree with this @J0eySn0w this game design is not good for everyone, I know there will be people who would disagree as they might be very skillful but majority of the game is not played by very skilled players and it also won't be promoting the game to the newer players. Photon boss in summer of suffering is actually not a good one as she fails the dex mastery(what's the importance of masteries if a champion can avoid it using its own kit) plus the unblockable specials, there's no way to counter that in a longer fight consistently and on top of that there's the AI issues which are yet to be fixed but the team is not addressing the issues which helps the players but only themselves. AI could've been reverted back to the previous state until it is fixed by the team but they're just letting everyone suffer and there's no compensation for this as well like revives and health potions which are spent due to the AI(we have seen these kind of compensation for lesser issues).
    Overall the game is moving in a really bad direction
    @KabamDORK
  • captain_rogerscaptain_rogers Member Posts: 9,414 ★★★★★
    EdisonLaw said:
    This meme would be actually funny if they had released New relics lol.
  • WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Member Posts: 1,439 ★★★
    EdisonLaw said:

    This seems like natural progression to me. 2022, in my opinion, had some really amazing attacker releases. 2023 still had great attackers but towards the end of 2023 and into 2024, we started getting these challenging defenders. I can't predict the future but I think 2025 will be ripe for some strong attackers now that we have well-defined defensive threats in each class to counter. It would be pretty meaningless to just release attackers with bigger and bigger numbers.

    Instead, those great attackers will also make fighting serpent or enchantress or onslaught or photon easier giving them more purpose than steamrolling content that our roster can already do.

    2025 is when defenders start turning off parry, dexterity alongside every mastery you have invested in.

    Let’s prepare ourselves for the inevitable
    There's a reason it's called the slippery slope fallacy and not the slippery slope good argument
  • WednesdayLengthWednesdayLength Member Posts: 1,439 ★★★
    BigBlueOx said:

    You know what’s crazy… is how stubborn they are to tweak any 2024 champs. They are all perfect on target champs per our balancing team… but then let’s think of this in term ls of 2023 champs. Shuri would have never been buffed into relevance, who cares if her kit wasn’t practical.

    Shuri was designed as a long form content high damage champion, she wasn't hitting that so she was rebalanced. It's got nothing to do with the year she was buffed
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  • BlackTuranBlackTuran Member Posts: 1,013 ★★★★
    Skill issue.
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