So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever.
Since that can only be directed at me, I'll respond directly and say that is a horrible mischaracterization. As I've said repeatedly, no player needs to know how the game works to provide feedback on the game itself. They can simply state what they see.
But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.
Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.
No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
how are the players not supposed to know how the game works?, especially those who have been playing for more than at least 2 years.
because we don't know how the game is programmed or what packages they use doesn't mean we can't "observe" and compare what the game provides us to what can be better.
and with the AI problems, it's only recently that kabam has actually decided to accept the problems on the issue, if it was 3+ years ago and you complained about a interaction and even sent video as long as someone testing couldn't recreate it, it doesn't exist. How would they be able to reliably recreate it when the entire system is fully randomized.
tldr: you can't belittle others who don't necessary have the knowledge and skills for their suggestions on the game, many science and technology discoveries weren't done by those who are specialists in the field
The problem is there are a good number of armchair devs and people who simply make blanket statements like "Do better."....."Fix it."...."It can't be that hard."....etc., and they scarcely have the understanding of the complexity and processes required to fix issues. Issues vary. They are not always replicated because there are a myriad of devices and other variables that go into the specifics. It's not always enough for us to commonly encounter a problem. They have to identify the cause internally. Then there's the fact that whatever possible fix is implemented needs to minimize compounding issues. Now, there are times where fixes need to be concocted immediately and they are less than ideal, such as emergencies or leaks or exploits. Those are times where their hand is forced for an immediate response. This isn't so much picking and choosing as it is triage. It's their job to fix holes before they become more major. I don't believe anyone is implying that people who are proficient at playing the game know nothing about it. That doesn't automatically make them experts at programming, or programming this game specifically. Of course people are always encouraged to offer feedback. The problem is, everyone seems to be an expert when things are rarely that simple.
Only you and the guy DNA whatever here trying to be expert by teaching us about how hard to fix the AI, or what is the engineering behind the scene. Listen! We are end users, we **** care about it because we’re customers, the AI is broken and we want you to fix it because we already paid for it. Stop teaching us, that’s your problem, not ours
@kabam Crashed I know you are just responding and I don’t want this to seem like a personal attack but I believe the situation is dire. Everyone is talking about the ai. Even the CCP who typically side steps the ai or casually mentions it is complaining openly. Months to fix is something many of us have heard here on the forums many of times. It has become a point of frustration and easy to disregard as another false promise
Don't worry, I don't take it as a personal attack. I know you and others are frustrated, and you have a right to be.
The info DNA has shared in this thread is important, not because everybody needs to know how the AI works, but because I think players should know what we are actually talking about when we say "AI". "Fixing" it isn't easy, because it's not "broken", it's just different. In a rhythm fighting game, different is a problem. Players learned one thing, now it's at least in some cases another. And it was not an intentional change that caused this discrepancy. If we could simply set the AI to work like it did 2 years ago we would, but we can't.
And just to be clear, DNA basically said this already, but I want to reiterate. The AI doesn't know what a parry is, it doesn't know what a dex is, it doesn't know what an intercept is. So we can't just tell it "light intercept less" because it doesn't know what that means. It's a weighted random number generator that is happening to roll light attack at the moment it needs to to intercept you. As the community has seen, any "fix" has consequences. So if we are able to set the AI to not roll light attack in those situations, it still has to do something. And what that something is might end up being even more frustrating.
There has been a group that has been working to address these issues already for months. We aren't taking it lightly, but I want to be reasonable about expectations here. We are committed to resolving these issues but it's probably the hardest thing to "fix" that the team has ever been faced with, because the system we are working with wasn't designed with any real intention for these situations that are very relevant to the modern MCoC experience.
So.... People dont understand about A.I. behaviour
Instead of AI knowing that you dexed or parried, there is a random chances that a special will be thrown or any other Cpu moves.
We can imagine that program line=
{If at 2.7 power bar} Then <5>random<9> release Sp3
Because the A.I. may know that in next moment the power bar will reach 3
So, the numbers increase as the power bar reaches 3....
But.....
It's not certain that Cpu will throw sp3
Maybe on some critical quests as WoW or SoS the numbers are different and the CPU hold Sp.3 ,so the quest as the name is will be harder.
Regardless of how they generate the random action, the buffer time in which it cannot take an action is the real problem most likely. An easy way to see is how quickly it throws it's SP3 when it has it. If 1/4 of a second (250ms) is the normal human reaction speed, then with the game able to throw it's SP3 before the screen updates at 30fps, the AI is making frame perfect decisions at 33ms or faster.
So it appears to be a matter of choice. Either they buffer how quickly the game can react or they keep it ludicrously fast while teaching the AI to parry (look for a normal move and when it would strike and parry within the window), then purposely nerf it.
That’s how it feels to me. There’s agency at play here. This isn’t just an “the AI is complex and harder to fix than the players realize problem”.
The team chose not to prioritize this, then chose again that it’s ok for it to persist without any alleviating actions while they try to implement the fix they like best.
Statements like “the AI is the same across the GC and VT” fly under the radar, and maybe I’m reading too far between the lines because I’m frustrated with how persistent these issues have been, but what wasn’t said here is that the passivity of the AI wasn’t weighted higher than the last update.
And passive AI benefits defenders in both BGs metas right now. We have a rich get richer meta and an intercept meta. In one situation the AI is more likely to throw SP3s and in the other it’s more likely to force players to play riskier and forcing issues as they know that time matters.
I can only imagine that making something feel challenging and fun is not an easy feat. But doesn’t seem like gameplay enjoyment targets the team has are aligned with a majority of the player base. In fairness, fight enjoyment is a subjective measure, so it’s not a like this is an easy thing to do either. There seems to be alot of disconnects in the “enjoyment” metric this year as player aren’t only frustrated with gameplay.
There’s frustration over defenders that feel cheap vs difficult, there’s frustration over a majority of underpowered or flawed attackers, there’s frustration over the quality of attackers we are allowed to use in Raids and War. Or all of this is gameplay so maybe some of this is easier to address than others, but here we are entering a second season of an AW meta where the tactic attackers are universally considered disappointing and underpowered compared to the defenders… and the 3rd or 4th tactic pool where this has been the case this year.
I’m not saying the player base is always right but maybe it’s time to listen a little bit more on some of these items. Alleviate frustration in the areas where it’s easier than others. Things like the Daily Super Event are a great example of this,
I can live with some parts of the AI while Kabam is figuring out ot fixing it; but getting parried after punishing a special is just so stupid... Only safe way to play is blocking and parrying 5 to follow with a 5 hit combo rinse and repeat...
I can live with some parts of the AI while Kabam is figuring out ot fixing it; but getting parried after punishing a special is just so stupid... Only safe way to play is blocking and parrying 5 to follow with a 5 hit combo rinse and repeat...
This always feels part AI part design. Lots of recent champs seem to intentionally have no special finishing animations or greatly reduced windows of safe punishing by design now. Which then exacerbates the whole pain point of skipping frames and inactivity times.
Compare Superior Iron Man’s SP1 to Shocker’s. One has been much more dangerous to punish than the other since they dropped for an example.
AI is constantly dashing back and holding block? Just use Hulkling bro it's so easy bro. AI is special intercepting while trying to bait? Just use Silk bro it's so easy bro. AI is constantly parry stunning you? Just use Hercules bro it's so easy bro.
AI is constantly dashing back and holding block? Just use Hulkling bro it's so easy bro. AI is special intercepting while trying to bait? Just use Silk bro it's so easy bro. AI is constantly parry stunning you? Just use Hercules bro it's so easy bro.
So here we are again. The forum lords punching down at us dumb plebes cause we don’t understand game engines, or time clocks, or determinism or whatever.
Since that can only be directed at me, I'll respond directly and say that is a horrible mischaracterization. As I've said repeatedly, no player needs to know how the game works to provide feedback on the game itself. They can simply state what they see.
But when those complaints start commenting on what the problem is, how simple it should be to fix, and how incompetent or conspiratorial the dev team must be to fail to solve it quickly, then yes, I'll "punch down" on all the idiots making those kinds of assumptions with absolutely no idea what they are talking about.
If you just want to provide feedback about the game, which is what most players should be doing, have at it. I will challenge you to find a single post where I criticized a player for either providing an observation, or articulating what they felt was an issue with the game, whether I disagreed with it or not. But if you're going to make comments about how the game works, how game development works, or how any of these problems ought to be fixed, you should actually know what you're talking about.
Talk about what you do know. If you see a problem with the game, describe it. That can only be helpful. But you don't know anything about how the game works. You don't know anything about how the AI works, or how the game processes events, or how game development teams work, or how Unity works, or how legacy systems integration works, so don't make statements about any of those things that anyone competent in any of them cringe when they read. Or at least take the time to learn first before opining.
No one has the right to be wrong, no matter how frustrated they are.
how are the players not supposed to know how the game works?, especially those who have been playing for more than at least 2 years.
because we don't know how the game is programmed or what packages they use doesn't mean we can't "observe" and compare what the game provides us to what can be better.
and with the AI problems, it's only recently that kabam has actually decided to accept the problems on the issue, if it was 3+ years ago and you complained about a interaction and even sent video as long as someone testing couldn't recreate it, it doesn't exist. How would they be able to reliably recreate it when the entire system is fully randomized.
tldr: you can't belittle others who don't necessary have the knowledge and skills for their suggestions on the game, many science and technology discoveries weren't done by those who are specialists in the field
The problem is there are a good number of armchair devs and people who simply make blanket statements like "Do better."....."Fix it."...."It can't be that hard."....etc., and they scarcely have the understanding of the complexity and processes required to fix issues. Issues vary. They are not always replicated because there are a myriad of devices and other variables that go into the specifics. It's not always enough for us to commonly encounter a problem. They have to identify the cause internally. Then there's the fact that whatever possible fix is implemented needs to minimize compounding issues. Now, there are times where fixes need to be concocted immediately and they are less than ideal, such as emergencies or leaks or exploits. Those are times where their hand is forced for an immediate response. This isn't so much picking and choosing as it is triage. It's their job to fix holes before they become more major. I don't believe anyone is implying that people who are proficient at playing the game know nothing about it. That doesn't automatically make them experts at programming, or programming this game specifically. Of course people are always encouraged to offer feedback. The problem is, everyone seems to be an expert when things are rarely that simple.
Only you and the guy DNA whatever here trying to be expert by teaching us about how hard to fix the AI, or what is the engineering behind the scene. Listen! We are end users, we **** care about it because we’re customers, the AI is broken and we want you to fix it because we already paid for it. Stop teaching us, that’s your problem, not ours
Oh, okay sire. I shall snap my fingers and make it so.
Apologies for the sarcasm, but there is a line between frustration and what can immediately be done. People are frustrated on both sides. I can imagine it's not fun to try and fix it as well. That doesn't mean it's easily done.
Apologies for the sarcasm, but there is a line between frustration and what can immediately be done. People are frustrated on both sides. I can imagine it's not fun to try and fix it as well. That doesn't mean it's easily done.
And which of the both sides are you and DNA on? To take a page out of Crashed's book: You do this to yourselves, you do. How do you know it's not easily done?
Do you have some inside knowledge? Examined the code and found it's not straightforward? I'm not surprised by the blowback you guys are getting; just how long it's taken (although with the warnings we used to receive for calling certain people out, maybe not so much).
All I want to know is: 1. Why is it so damned hard to fix XL champs. 2. There's no variable that changes how much time the AI has before rolling a decision? It's just rolling decisions as fast as the CPU can process?
I think they finally admitted there an AI issue but should have really got to the point of a content creator having to speak out against this hideous AI interactions.
AI is constantly dashing back and holding block? Just use Hulkling bro it's so easy bro. AI is special intercepting while trying to bait? Just use Silk bro it's so easy bro. AI is constantly parry stunning you? Just use Hercules bro it's so easy bro.
Don't forget not throwing specials, especially in BG when there such a short time period. Knowing a SP3 is game over from a R3 7*.
So the AI not throwing specials when they have a power sting is “random”? And the second the sting expires, they throw the special? It’s odd that everything the AI does obstructs the kit of the champ that you are using.
And if the AI is this out of control, can you please stop designing new champs with kits that require the AI to react in a specific way? I can’t understand the thought process behind that.
Apologies for the sarcasm, but there is a line between frustration and what can immediately be done. People are frustrated on both sides. I can imagine it's not fun to try and fix it as well. That doesn't mean it's easily done.
And which of the both sides are you and DNA on? To take a page out of Crashed's book: You do this to yourselves, you do. How do you know it's not easily done?
Do you have some inside knowledge? Examined the code and found it's not straightforward? I'm not surprised by the blowback you guys are getting; just how long it's taken (although with the warnings we used to receive for calling certain people out, maybe not so much).
All I want to know is: 1. Why is it so damned hard to fix XL champs. 2. There's no variable that changes how much time the AI has before rolling a decision? It's just rolling decisions as fast as the CPU can process?
The time to take decision is fine, there was a post yesterday where Mojo decided to use an SP3 before it even shows 3 bara full. Then again there was another post about an SoS fight where Toad didn't use an sp3 forever...
Apologies for the sarcasm, but there is a line between frustration and what can immediately be done. People are frustrated on both sides. I can imagine it's not fun to try and fix it as well. That doesn't mean it's easily done.
And which of the both sides are you and DNA on? To take a page out of Crashed's book: You do this to yourselves, you do. How do you know it's not easily done?
Do you have some inside knowledge? Examined the code and found it's not straightforward? I'm not surprised by the blowback you guys are getting; just how long it's taken (although with the warnings we used to receive for calling certain people out, maybe not so much).
All I want to know is: 1. Why is it so damned hard to fix XL champs. 2. There's no variable that changes how much time the AI has before rolling a decision? It's just rolling decisions as fast as the CPU can process?
The time to take decision is fine, there was a post yesterday where Mojo decided to use an SP3 before it even shows 3 bara full. Then again there was another post about an SoS fight where Toad didn't use an sp3 forever...
You're misunderstanding the difference. The AI deciding whether or not to throw the AI is not the problem IMO. It's how quickly it can. For example, how long should it take after filling 3 bars, does using the SP3 become an option (to roll)? If it's happening before a screen can refresh, it's likely making decisions roughly every frame.
Apologies for the sarcasm, but there is a line between frustration and what can immediately be done. People are frustrated on both sides. I can imagine it's not fun to try and fix it as well. That doesn't mean it's easily done.
And which of the both sides are you and DNA on? To take a page out of Crashed's book: You do this to yourselves, you do. How do you know it's not easily done?
Do you have some inside knowledge? Examined the code and found it's not straightforward? I'm not surprised by the blowback you guys are getting; just how long it's taken (although with the warnings we used to receive for calling certain people out, maybe not so much).
All I want to know is: 1. Why is it so damned hard to fix XL champs. 2. There's no variable that changes how much time the AI has before rolling a decision? It's just rolling decisions as fast as the CPU can process?
The time to take decision is fine, there was a post yesterday where Mojo decided to use an SP3 before it even shows 3 bara full. Then again there was another post about an SoS fight where Toad didn't use an sp3 forever...
You're misunderstanding the difference. The AI deciding whether or not to throw the AI is not the problem IMO. It's how quickly it can. For example, how long should it take after filling 3 bars, does using the SP3 become an option (to roll)? If it's happening before a screen can refresh, it's likely making decisions roughly every frame.
I understand what you meant, I am complaining about recovery time. Specially since this is mostly based on counter actions. What i meant with the example is that the AI is so overtuned that it reacts before a visual trigger. Someone took the time to explain that a mojo task was completed.. he got power gain and used sp3.. ALL THIS before even showing the 3 bars... That's how fast its actuallt taking decisions lol
Apologies for the sarcasm, but there is a line between frustration and what can immediately be done. People are frustrated on both sides. I can imagine it's not fun to try and fix it as well. That doesn't mean it's easily done.
And which of the both sides are you and DNA on? To take a page out of Crashed's book: You do this to yourselves, you do. How do you know it's not easily done?
Do you have some inside knowledge? Examined the code and found it's not straightforward? I'm not surprised by the blowback you guys are getting; just how long it's taken (although with the warnings we used to receive for calling certain people out, maybe not so much).
All I want to know is: 1. Why is it so damned hard to fix XL champs. 2. There's no variable that changes how much time the AI has before rolling a decision? It's just rolling decisions as fast as the CPU can process?
I don't do anything to myself. I respond with common sense and logic. Nor do I consider myself a victim in that. There are no sides. That's the whole point. There's no us vs. them. I can't answer your questions. What I can say is, the AI gets a great deal of blame for issues as a blanket statement, and it isn't always the AI. There are only 3 AI profiles in circulation, unless something has changed since Miike left. That's always been the response. Sometimes it's device-related, sometimes it's layered in the build, sometimes it's related to a specific mechanic that affects multiple Champs, sometimes it's on the server itself, I mean the game itself is a complex, woven system. People are free to express their frustrations and opinions. However, if they're becoming demanding and indignant, then be prepared for someone to interject some reasoning now and then.
Having two accounts means i could play GC and VT at the same time for comparison. They legit knew that it was intercept meta and purposely:
Gave - Us - Passive - AI.
LOL
This comment is pretty instructive because it demonstrates the cycle we are in right now where frustration has led to confirmation bias and it has really taken over.
I understand conspiracy theories that we are making AI deliberately harder in content like Summer of Suffering. They aren't true, every SoS fight has had the same AI profile, but I understand why players might think they are true. Harder AI in Everest content = harder fights = more consumables used = theoretically more money for us, at least in the short term.
However the community should be able to take as step back and realize none of those incentives exist for us in Battlegrounds. In Battlegrounds, the more players play, the better it is for our business. The idea that we would deliberately create a harder or more frustrating AI simply doesn't hold water. We have not, the exact same AI profile is applied to both the VT and GC this season. Any perceived difference is just confirmation bias.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying there are no problems with the AI. I personally believe we have some substantial issues we need to address, and I'm hoping we can communicate them more effectively in the coming months. But I can tell you definitively that we aren't making harder AI profiles to target specific metas.
Can Kabam prove it that its not for money ??
To you? Probably not. But I suspect proving the Earth is round would also be extremely challenging.
There’s something very disgusting about this response and the implications in it.
Apologies for the sarcasm, but there is a line between frustration and what can immediately be done. People are frustrated on both sides. I can imagine it's not fun to try and fix it as well. That doesn't mean it's easily done.
And which of the both sides are you and DNA on? To take a page out of Crashed's book: You do this to yourselves, you do. How do you know it's not easily done?
Do you have some inside knowledge? Examined the code and found it's not straightforward? I'm not surprised by the blowback you guys are getting; just how long it's taken (although with the warnings we used to receive for calling certain people out, maybe not so much).
All I want to know is: 1. Why is it so damned hard to fix XL champs. 2. There's no variable that changes how much time the AI has before rolling a decision? It's just rolling decisions as fast as the CPU can process?
I don't do anything to myself. I respond with common sense and logic. Nor do I consider myself a victim in that. There are no sides. That's the whole point. There's no us vs. them. I can't answer your questions. What I can say is, the AI gets a great deal of blame for issues as a blanket statement, and it isn't always the AI. There are only 3 AI profiles in circulation, unless something has changed since Miike left. That's always been the response. Sometimes it's device-related, sometimes it's layered in the build, sometimes it's related to a specific mechanic that affects multiple Champs, sometimes it's on the server itself, I mean the game itself is a complex, woven system. People are free to express their frustrations and opinions. However, if they're becoming demanding and indignant, then be prepared for someone to interject some reasoning now and then.
Ah so your job here is to curb player indignation and outrage. Cool.
Apologies for the sarcasm, but there is a line between frustration and what can immediately be done. People are frustrated on both sides. I can imagine it's not fun to try and fix it as well. That doesn't mean it's easily done.
And which of the both sides are you and DNA on? To take a page out of Crashed's book: You do this to yourselves, you do. How do you know it's not easily done?
Do you have some inside knowledge? Examined the code and found it's not straightforward? I'm not surprised by the blowback you guys are getting; just how long it's taken (although with the warnings we used to receive for calling certain people out, maybe not so much).
All I want to know is: 1. Why is it so damned hard to fix XL champs. 2. There's no variable that changes how much time the AI has before rolling a decision? It's just rolling decisions as fast as the CPU can process?
I don't do anything to myself. I respond with common sense and logic. Nor do I consider myself a victim in that. There are no sides. That's the whole point. There's no us vs. them. I can't answer your questions. What I can say is, the AI gets a great deal of blame for issues as a blanket statement, and it isn't always the AI. There are only 3 AI profiles in circulation, unless something has changed since Miike left. That's always been the response. Sometimes it's device-related, sometimes it's layered in the build, sometimes it's related to a specific mechanic that affects multiple Champs, sometimes it's on the server itself, I mean the game itself is a complex, woven system. People are free to express their frustrations and opinions. However, if they're becoming demanding and indignant, then be prepared for someone to interject some reasoning now and then.
Ah so your job here is to curb player indignation and outrage. Cool.
Apologies for the sarcasm, but there is a line between frustration and what can immediately be done. People are frustrated on both sides. I can imagine it's not fun to try and fix it as well. That doesn't mean it's easily done.
And which of the both sides are you and DNA on? To take a page out of Crashed's book: You do this to yourselves, you do. How do you know it's not easily done?
Do you have some inside knowledge? Examined the code and found it's not straightforward? I'm not surprised by the blowback you guys are getting; just how long it's taken (although with the warnings we used to receive for calling certain people out, maybe not so much).
All I want to know is: 1. Why is it so damned hard to fix XL champs. 2. There's no variable that changes how much time the AI has before rolling a decision? It's just rolling decisions as fast as the CPU can process?
I don't do anything to myself. I respond with common sense and logic. Nor do I consider myself a victim in that. There are no sides. That's the whole point. There's no us vs. them. I can't answer your questions. What I can say is, the AI gets a great deal of blame for issues as a blanket statement, and it isn't always the AI. There are only 3 AI profiles in circulation, unless something has changed since Miike left. That's always been the response. Sometimes it's device-related, sometimes it's layered in the build, sometimes it's related to a specific mechanic that affects multiple Champs, sometimes it's on the server itself, I mean the game itself is a complex, woven system. People are free to express their frustrations and opinions. However, if they're becoming demanding and indignant, then be prepared for someone to interject some reasoning now and then.
Ah so your job here is to curb player indignation and outrage. Cool.
Is your job to argue with me?
^ this is what someone does when you beat them in an argument. I just copied what was in your response...
Apologies for the sarcasm, but there is a line between frustration and what can immediately be done. People are frustrated on both sides. I can imagine it's not fun to try and fix it as well. That doesn't mean it's easily done.
And which of the both sides are you and DNA on? To take a page out of Crashed's book: You do this to yourselves, you do. How do you know it's not easily done?
Do you have some inside knowledge? Examined the code and found it's not straightforward? I'm not surprised by the blowback you guys are getting; just how long it's taken (although with the warnings we used to receive for calling certain people out, maybe not so much).
All I want to know is: 1. Why is it so damned hard to fix XL champs. 2. There's no variable that changes how much time the AI has before rolling a decision? It's just rolling decisions as fast as the CPU can process?
I don't do anything to myself. I respond with common sense and logic. Nor do I consider myself a victim in that. There are no sides. That's the whole point. There's no us vs. them. I can't answer your questions. What I can say is, the AI gets a great deal of blame for issues as a blanket statement, and it isn't always the AI. There are only 3 AI profiles in circulation, unless something has changed since Miike left. That's always been the response. Sometimes it's device-related, sometimes it's layered in the build, sometimes it's related to a specific mechanic that affects multiple Champs, sometimes it's on the server itself, I mean the game itself is a complex, woven system. People are free to express their frustrations and opinions. However, if they're becoming demanding and indignant, then be prepared for someone to interject some reasoning now and then.
Ah so your job here is to curb player indignation and outrage. Cool.
Is your job to argue with me?
^ this is what someone does when you beat them in an argument. I just copied what was in your response...
You're funny. I can see through your passive-aggressive baiting a mile away. I'm just not bothered. You're not adding anything constructive to this conversation anymore.
Are there any temporary changes the devs would consider as a stopgap until a solution is found?
For example, disabling defender ability to parry stun in aw and bgs.
Would that be fair to the players who use defenders that rely upon such effects to be good defenders?
Changing content is a separate discussion, but when you talk about player defenders in competitive modes, you are not helping players by inactivating defenders, you're choosing sides between two players.
I mean slow down and read this response y'all. Keep trying to come up with a thoughtful response to this and it's beyond me.
Like what kind of player in this game makes this kind of argument? Do you see any top players who have invested thousands in their accounts rejoicing that their defenders are even more OP?
"How can you think of *fixing anti player issue*? Is it fair to the people who rely on *said anti player issue* to be good defenders?" is some world class logical gymnastics. Fantastic.
If the devs could put you and all the other "top players" onto their own server with its own rules, then perhaps you could all get together and vote on how your defenders should work. Until then, the game mechanics work across the entire game, and the developers have an obligation to make game changes that are as fair as possible across the entire game and its entire player population.
If you really want to play dueling resumes with me, that's cool. You show me all your game accomplishments. And I'll show you, oh, I don't know, let's start with the Battlegrounds game mode itself, which at the moment currently works more or less the way I suggested it be changed to work.
The difference between my logical gymnastics and your logical gymnastics is mine win gold medals.
The only gold medals you win is in post length. There was nothing worthwhile in your post. And with a due respect, I’d rather take suggestions on BGs from people who are relatively good at the mode.
This will only become significant when you are the person who makes a game I play.
I'm going to close this now since it appears to be trending down an unproductive road. We should have an official announcement about the situation ready later today.
Comments
The team chose not to prioritize this, then chose again that it’s ok for it to persist without any alleviating actions while they try to implement the fix they like best.
Statements like “the AI is the same across the GC and VT” fly under the radar, and maybe I’m reading too far between the lines because I’m frustrated with how persistent these issues have been, but what wasn’t said here is that the passivity of the AI wasn’t weighted higher than the last update.
And passive AI benefits defenders in both BGs metas right now. We have a rich get richer meta and an intercept meta. In one situation the AI is more likely to throw SP3s and in the other it’s more likely to force players to play riskier and forcing issues as they know that time matters.
I can only imagine that making something feel challenging and fun is not an easy feat. But
doesn’t seem like gameplay enjoyment targets the team has are aligned with a majority of the player base. In fairness, fight enjoyment is a subjective measure, so it’s not a like this is an easy thing to do either. There seems to be alot of disconnects in the “enjoyment” metric this year as player aren’t only frustrated with gameplay.
There’s frustration over defenders that feel cheap vs difficult, there’s frustration over a majority of underpowered or flawed attackers, there’s frustration over the quality of attackers we are allowed to use in Raids and War. Or all of this is gameplay so maybe some of this is easier to address than others, but here we are entering a second season of an AW meta where the tactic attackers are universally considered disappointing and underpowered compared to the defenders… and the 3rd or 4th tactic pool where this has been the case this year.
I’m not saying the player base is always right but maybe it’s time to listen a little bit more on some of these items. Alleviate frustration in the areas where it’s easier than others. Things like the Daily Super Event are a great example of this,
Only safe way to play is blocking and parrying 5 to follow with a 5 hit combo rinse and repeat...
Compare Superior Iron Man’s SP1 to Shocker’s. One has been much more dangerous to punish than the other since they dropped for an example.
AI is special intercepting while trying to bait? Just use Silk bro it's so easy bro.
AI is constantly parry stunning you? Just use Hercules bro it's so easy bro.
Do you have some inside knowledge? Examined the code and found it's not straightforward? I'm not surprised by the blowback you guys are getting; just how long it's taken (although with the warnings we used to receive for calling certain people out, maybe not so much).
All I want to know is:
1. Why is it so damned hard to fix XL champs.
2. There's no variable that changes how much time the AI has before rolling a decision? It's just rolling decisions as fast as the CPU can process?
And if the AI is this out of control, can you please stop designing new champs with kits that require the AI to react in a specific way? I can’t understand the thought process behind that.
Then again there was another post about an SoS fight where Toad didn't use an sp3 forever...
What i meant with the example is that the AI is so overtuned that it reacts before a visual trigger.
Someone took the time to explain that a mojo task was completed.. he got power gain and used sp3.. ALL THIS before even showing the 3 bars... That's how fast its actuallt taking decisions lol
There are no sides. That's the whole point. There's no us vs. them.
I can't answer your questions. What I can say is, the AI gets a great deal of blame for issues as a blanket statement, and it isn't always the AI. There are only 3 AI profiles in circulation, unless something has changed since Miike left. That's always been the response. Sometimes it's device-related, sometimes it's layered in the build, sometimes it's related to a specific mechanic that affects multiple Champs, sometimes it's on the server itself, I mean the game itself is a complex, woven system.
People are free to express their frustrations and opinions. However, if they're becoming demanding and indignant, then be prepared for someone to interject some reasoning now and then.