Overall, this loyalty thing is useless, dumb, and wasted the time of whoever put it together, but it doesn't fit in with monetization conversation.
Is it? Suppose you wanted to make the webstore more attractive to the majority of players who currently use the in-app purchase mechanism, but you didn't want to add too much bonus stuff or units or whatever that would have a significant impact on the game economy. How would you do that?
I wanna meet the person this moves the needle for. I got the great bag of magic beans for sale.
Overall, this loyalty thing is useless, dumb, and wasted the time of whoever put it together, but it doesn't fit in with monetization conversation.
Is it? Suppose you wanted to make the webstore more attractive to the majority of players who currently use the in-app purchase mechanism, but you didn't want to add too much bonus stuff or units or whatever that would have a significant impact on the game economy. How would you do that?
I wanna meet the person this moves the needle for. I got the great bag of magic beans for sale.
To be fair, there are a good number of Players that spend that much over time. Not exactly useful for the occasional spender of a couple bucks here and there, but I suppose that wasn't their goal.
$4285 for a crystal and $1714 for an emote? I want whatever y'all are smoking. And stuff like summoners sigil doesn't even count.... Swing and a miss @kabam crashed
Overall, this loyalty thing is useless, dumb, and wasted the time of whoever put it together, but it doesn't fit in with monetization conversation.
Is it? Suppose you wanted to make the webstore more attractive to the majority of players who currently use the in-app purchase mechanism, but you didn't want to add too much bonus stuff or units or whatever that would have a significant impact on the game economy. How would you do that?
You give a free sticker for $200 instead of nearly $2,000. It's not the quality of the freebie, it's the absurdity of the valuation of those freebies. And maybe you also add to your "loyalty" system a pathway for players that don't spend but are loyal to get these things too. They really can't let players that login every day for 86 week get a free emote? I get what they were after, it just lacks all common sense.
And before we go down that path, I am a moderate spender (sigil, monthly units, tracks, occasional offers), so this isn't a FTP crying about PTP advantages (and these aren't advantages anyway).
I mean, why would anyone defend this? Yes, make it like $200, and update the emotes or something every few months. Or rotate them. Are emotes and pfps now consider threats to the game economy? I think most of us don't even care about these items, but are just kinda repulsed by the logic/motivation behind this new "feature". And concerned about this being a paradigmatic example of the direction in which the game is heading.
And then the economy designer gets punched in the face by the art team, after they find out they signed them up to make new sets of emotes every few weeks.
Overall, this loyalty thing is useless, dumb, and wasted the time of whoever put it together, but it doesn't fit in with monetization conversation.
Is it? Suppose you wanted to make the webstore more attractive to the majority of players who currently use the in-app purchase mechanism, but you didn't want to add too much bonus stuff or units or whatever that would have a significant impact on the game economy. How would you do that?
You give a free sticker for $200 instead of nearly $2,000. It's not the quality of the freebie, it's the absurdity of the valuation of those freebies. And maybe you also add to your "loyalty" system a pathway for players that don't spend but are loyal to get these things too. They really can't let players that login every day for 86 week get a free emote? I get what they were after, it just lacks all common sense.
And before we go down that path, I am a moderate spender (sigil, monthly units, tracks, occasional offers), so this isn't a FTP crying about PTP advantages (and these aren't advantages anyway).
I mean, why would anyone defend this? Yes, make it like $200, and update the emotes or something every few months. Or rotate them. Are emotes and pfps now consider threats to the game economy? I think most of us don't even care about these items, but are just kinda repulsed by the logic/motivation behind this new "feature". And concerned about this being a paradigmatic example of the direction in which the game is heading.
And then the economy designer gets punched in the face by the art team, after they find out they signed them up to make new sets of emotes every few weeks.
I can just imagine that Zoom call.
I doubt the art department cares if the emotes go for lotalty worth 200 or 1500... We are not selling Rembrandts here, pretty sure in this days if they pick 1 and its the most popular, the creator would be more than happy. If they are as degenerate as I am they probably have a pool to see which one is the most popular.
Overall, this loyalty thing is useless, dumb, and wasted the time of whoever put it together, but it doesn't fit in with monetization conversation.
Is it? Suppose you wanted to make the webstore more attractive to the majority of players who currently use the in-app purchase mechanism, but you didn't want to add too much bonus stuff or units or whatever that would have a significant impact on the game economy. How would you do that?
You give a free sticker for $200 instead of nearly $2,000. It's not the quality of the freebie, it's the absurdity of the valuation of those freebies. And maybe you also add to your "loyalty" system a pathway for players that don't spend but are loyal to get these things too. They really can't let players that login every day for 86 week get a free emote? I get what they were after, it just lacks all common sense.
And before we go down that path, I am a moderate spender (sigil, monthly units, tracks, occasional offers), so this isn't a FTP crying about PTP advantages (and these aren't advantages anyway).
I mean, why would anyone defend this? Yes, make it like $200, and update the emotes or something every few months. Or rotate them. Are emotes and pfps now consider threats to the game economy? I think most of us don't even care about these items, but are just kinda repulsed by the logic/motivation behind this new "feature". And concerned about this being a paradigmatic example of the direction in which the game is heading.
And then the economy designer gets punched in the face by the art team, after they find out they signed them up to make new sets of emotes every few weeks.
I can just imagine that Zoom call.
I can't imagine it's that hard for an artist to make a new emote every few months. It's not the Sistine Chapel.
Overall, this loyalty thing is useless, dumb, and wasted the time of whoever put it together, but it doesn't fit in with monetization conversation.
Is it? Suppose you wanted to make the webstore more attractive to the majority of players who currently use the in-app purchase mechanism, but you didn't want to add too much bonus stuff or units or whatever that would have a significant impact on the game economy. How would you do that?
I wanna meet the person this moves the needle for. I got the great bag of magic beans for sale.
That's like saying you want to meet the person for whom a free cocktail moves the needle for first class flights that cost several thousand dollars. On the one hand, no one person is going to admit that it would. On the other hand, no airline is going to find out by getting rid of it and seeing how many passengers they lose.
I am going to repeat myself. If you are one of those lucky guys to be able to activate a x3 or x5 in play purchase points during 4th of July. Google is gonna put the webstore to shame, spit on it and then give it a nice shoulder to cry on
Overall, this loyalty thing is useless, dumb, and wasted the time of whoever put it together, but it doesn't fit in with monetization conversation.
Is it? Suppose you wanted to make the webstore more attractive to the majority of players who currently use the in-app purchase mechanism, but you didn't want to add too much bonus stuff or units or whatever that would have a significant impact on the game economy. How would you do that?
I wanna meet the person this moves the needle for. I got the great bag of magic beans for sale.
That's like saying you want to meet the person for whom a free cocktail moves the needle for first class flights that cost several thousand dollars. On the one hand, no one person is going to admit that it would. On the other hand, no airline is going to find out by getting rid of it and seeing how many passengers they lose.
No it’s not. One is an established service offering customers expect and are used to the other is a brand new unknown thing meant to entice new users priced in the stratosphere.
Not sure why you are so stuck on defending what’s objectively indefensibly priced.
Those emotes are like seeing a hot pink Ferrari, at first you are in awe you see one, then you start mathing in your head how much it cost the person, by the 3rd time they spam it you are already annoyed with his snotty ass and think "What a goof" (keeping it pg 13)
Overall, this loyalty thing is useless, dumb, and wasted the time of whoever put it together, but it doesn't fit in with monetization conversation.
Is it? Suppose you wanted to make the webstore more attractive to the majority of players who currently use the in-app purchase mechanism, but you didn't want to add too much bonus stuff or units or whatever that would have a significant impact on the game economy. How would you do that?
You give a free sticker for $200 instead of nearly $2,000. It's not the quality of the freebie, it's the absurdity of the valuation of those freebies. And maybe you also add to your "loyalty" system a pathway for players that don't spend but are loyal to get these things too. They really can't let players that login every day for 86 week get a free emote? I get what they were after, it just lacks all common sense.
And before we go down that path, I am a moderate spender (sigil, monthly units, tracks, occasional offers), so this isn't a FTP crying about PTP advantages (and these aren't advantages anyway).
I mean, why would anyone defend this? Yes, make it like $200, and update the emotes or something every few months. Or rotate them. Are emotes and pfps now consider threats to the game economy? I think most of us don't even care about these items, but are just kinda repulsed by the logic/motivation behind this new "feature". And concerned about this being a paradigmatic example of the direction in which the game is heading.
And then the economy designer gets punched in the face by the art team, after they find out they signed them up to make new sets of emotes every few weeks.
I can just imagine that Zoom call.
I can't imagine it's that hard for an artist to make a new emote every few months. It's not the Sistine Chapel.
When this feature was developed, someone asked me what I thought should be in the store. I don't think we need any additional incentives to spend in the webstore. Anybody who knows about it and has the ability to spend there is already doing it, because there is substantial additional value compared to in game. So anything we put in this store is just free stuff. So I told them I thought we should just do cool, exclusive cosmetics, because we don't really do that anywhere right now. I'm hoping eventually we can do stuff like hire famous Marvel artists to do limited profile pics (imagine a 1 of 1 foil profile pic only one person can own).
Then someone said they thought there had to be something there instead of cosmetics for players that don't care about cosmetics, and they asked if they can put a loyalty crystal in it, and I said sure because nobody is going to ever buy it so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Also saying these emotes cost $2000 is like saying the polishing cloth that comes with a new guitar costs $2000. You are buying the guitar, Gibson is happy to toss in the cloth for free.
Also saying these emotes cost $2000 is like saying the polishing cloth that comes with a new guitar costs $2000. You are buying the guitar, Gibson is happy to toss in the cloth for free.
You’re comparing apples to oranges here. Most people buy a guitar to use/play them, not put them up for display only. People want these emotes to use them in BG matches. Hence people are correct in calling you out regarding the emotes costing $2000 when you used to sell a pack of emotes for $5
If your argument was about exclusive profile pictures, maybe I can see your point
Also saying these emotes cost $2000 is like saying the polishing cloth that comes with a new guitar costs $2000. You are buying the guitar, Gibson is happy to toss in the cloth for free.
Yes it true it not just that’s you buy it a bonus that’s may as well just not be there. I a spends myself but I stil need a full year and buy that’s time I may not even touch it because I find it dumb it even there that’s my opinion but I also understand that’s shouldn’t be more way to a whale to get lots of stuff so that a good thing to.
Splurging out $500 or so on a yearly event like 4th July (which is a sizeable amount of money that people do reasonably spend) should be enough to qualify for one of these bonus emotes. Shouldn't need to do 4 of these events to just get 1...(For the people that do want these emotes).
Also saying these emotes cost $2000 is like saying the polishing cloth that comes with a new guitar costs $2000. You are buying the guitar, Gibson is happy to toss in the cloth for free.
Overall, this loyalty thing is useless, dumb, and wasted the time of whoever put it together, but it doesn't fit in with monetization conversation.
Is it? Suppose you wanted to make the webstore more attractive to the majority of players who currently use the in-app purchase mechanism, but you didn't want to add too much bonus stuff or units or whatever that would have a significant impact on the game economy. How would you do that?
I wanna meet the person this moves the needle for. I got the great bag of magic beans for sale.
That's like saying you want to meet the person for whom a free cocktail moves the needle for first class flights that cost several thousand dollars. On the one hand, no one person is going to admit that it would. On the other hand, no airline is going to find out by getting rid of it and seeing how many passengers they lose.
No it’s not. One is an established service offering customers expect and are used to the other is a brand new unknown thing meant to entice new users priced in the stratosphere.
Not sure why you are so stuck on defending what’s objectively indefensibly priced.
If you think your perspective is either objective or reasonable, I do not believe I’m capable of eliminating your confusion in this regard.
I’m not the one stuck on anything. I’m just explaining my position, like I always do. Tomorrow I’ll be “stuck” on something else. As this is not my design, I’m not in a position to defend it from anything. I simply find it reasonable, and trivial to justify from a design perspective. The fact that some people see these things as “prices” even though they aren’t, and “too high” even though they are intended to be high, is something you have to defend, as the person choosing to attempt to promote a novel philosophy.
All I have to say is: I don’t think anyone who reaches the position of game economy designer would see it that way. You’re the one that has to somehow convince them to adopt your perspective. Good luck with that.
I was on the dang that is expensive train but thinking about it it is just an added bonus on top of what ppl would have spent anyways is it a high price yes but ppl are not spending this kind of money to get these bonuses they are just an added option if you choose to get them plus these points never expire
Also saying these emotes cost $2000 is like saying the polishing cloth that comes with a new guitar costs $2000. You are buying the guitar, Gibson is happy to toss in the cloth for free.
Polishing cloth can be purchased separately and affordably and it isn't gate kept for purchasing Guitar.
I asked chatgpt for equivalent examples: Built in exclusive Umbrella in Rolls Royce Free art curation in Dubai Ultra Luxury Apartment Free custom champagne on owning privet jet Free citizenship on purchasing private island etc.
Also saying these emotes cost $2000 is like saying the polishing cloth that comes with a new guitar costs $2000. You are buying the guitar, Gibson is happy to toss in the cloth for free.
You’re comparing apples to oranges here. Most people buy a guitar to use/play them, not put them up for display only. People want these emotes to use them in BG matches. Hence people are correct in calling you out regarding the emotes costing $2000 when you used to sell a pack of emotes for $5
If your argument was about exclusive profile pictures, maybe I can see your point
You're still comparing the wrong things, even after Crashed's response.
Guitar = Represents spenders purchasing items like crystals, units, or offer packs — where actual money is spent.
Polishing cloths = Represent the emotes that come free with the main purchase. They're useful, but not what people spend money on directly.
These emotes are free bonuses for spenders — not the primary item you're paying for, and definitely not something you spend money just to get.
Overall, this loyalty thing is useless, dumb, and wasted the time of whoever put it together, but it doesn't fit in with monetization conversation.
Is it? Suppose you wanted to make the webstore more attractive to the majority of players who currently use the in-app purchase mechanism, but you didn't want to add too much bonus stuff or units or whatever that would have a significant impact on the game economy. How would you do that?
I wanna meet the person this moves the needle for. I got the great bag of magic beans for sale.
That's like saying you want to meet the person for whom a free cocktail moves the needle for first class flights that cost several thousand dollars. On the one hand, no one person is going to admit that it would. On the other hand, no airline is going to find out by getting rid of it and seeing how many passengers they lose.
No it’s not. One is an established service offering customers expect and are used to the other is a brand new unknown thing meant to entice new users priced in the stratosphere.
Not sure why you are so stuck on defending what’s objectively indefensibly priced.
If you think your perspective is either objective or reasonable, I do not believe I’m capable of eliminating your confusion in this regard.
I’m not the one stuck on anything. I’m just explaining my position, like I always do. Tomorrow I’ll be “stuck” on something else. As this is not my design, I’m not in a position to defend it from anything. I simply find it reasonable, and trivial to justify from a design perspective. The fact that some people see these things as “prices” even though they aren’t, and “too high” even though they are intended to be high, is something you have to defend, as the person choosing to attempt to promote a novel philosophy.
All I have to say is: I don’t think anyone who reaches the position of game economy designer would see it that way. You’re the one that has to somehow convince them to adopt your perspective. Good luck with that.
I don’t need to be a game economy designer to see how poorly this is priced but sure let’s put up those airs….
Or we can look at the pricing models of other Kabam art like the “elite” purple border profile pictures, priced at 500 units each, a real world valuation (that a Kabam game economy designer set) of $20 USD. These “guitar cloths” have them been assigned a real world value that’s 86x (that’s an x not a %) more than the current highest price for pixel art in this game. It’s a valuation that’s approx. 80% more than Dark Phoenix, a trophy Character that was a top milestone reward in an event that paid out far more.
So don’t worry about my “confusion”. Like I said it’s objectively poorly priced… by Kabam’s own standards.
I get that these are supposed to be fun trinkets, that they are supposed “meaningless add ons… but sorry these prices ain’t it. Maybe if they were reasonably attainable then that goal would be hit. Heck we get one of these emotes for free every BGs season. This serves more as a warning sign to get a new hobby
Also saying these emotes cost $2000 is like saying the polishing cloth that comes with a new guitar costs $2000. You are buying the guitar, Gibson is happy to toss in the cloth for free.
As someone that owns a guitar right around that value, I'd like to know where my free polishing cloth is.
But let's get to the real issue of this being a terrible and inaccurate analogy. The only access I have to that free cloth (which may or may not exist for free) is through the spending. Okay, that's fine, the analogy kinda works there. The only access to these emotes is through insane spending. Cool, we can get there with this.
But Gibson doesn't advertise that "free" cloth as a reward for being loyal to the brand, and you have no reasonable free access to any Gibson guitar without spending. There's no structure of spend X get X. If I want to access ANYTHING from Gibson, I spend. Access to this game begins at being free. You guys said, "hey, we want to reward loyalty". Not surprising, a great deal of detail was left out - ya know, the usual detail that would've upset most players prior to launch rather than after launch.
The issue is not the emotes. The issue is not the incursion crystal. This issue is not that they're overvalued to Pluto and back (and yes, you're getting plenty more along the way and these are just freebies). The issue is that you put a price tag on loyalty for a game predominantly made of players that don't or can't spend and told them that their loyalty means absolutely nothing and will go unnoticed and unrewarded.
It was a pretty fair and reasonable assumption for all of us that at least with the market points we get every week we might be able to build up to something cool in this new loyalty program. But apparently an emote every 86 weeks or an incursion crystal every 4 years is just too much for the people that can't afford them.
Why not reward the loyalty of the largest portion of your player base? Because if they all go, so does the game. Why not reasonably reward the loyalty of your moderate spenders? If I do the math, my (current and likely to be reduced) spending, since the sigil doesn't even get you points, and since the monthly units are only in game, will probably be able to garner about 500 points per year, maybe as much as 2,000 if I get a cyber weekend or J4 deal. Huzzah! In just 6 short years I'll have a new emote! Here I am spending probably $30 a month on average, fluctuating depending on the month, and I'm being told that I'm not loyal enough to have a reasonable chance to earn low value items in customer loyalty program. What about the rest of the moderate spenders like me?
With this "loyalty" program, you haven't just reserved stuff for spenders. You've reserved stuff for the wealthy players and only for them. At the end of the day, should they get more for their spending? Absolutely! Definitely not begrudging that big spenders have access to more stuff, and especially not upset that this is the stuff that they get special access to. At the end of the day, it is those spenders that do the most to keep the lights on. But to call this a loyalty program is tone deaf. You've just told 99% of your players that they're not loyal enough, so why should they be?
If something isn't for everyone, stop pretending that it is until we find out that it's not.
While I agree the loyalty system is bonus to what we're getting. It also feels in no way rewarding because the pricing is egregious, I expected it to be a bit steep but that is obscene. I'm not going to pretend Im a big spender either way, so I suppose some will be happy with the emotes/pictures.
Comments
I can just imagine that Zoom call.
Even held back on appropriately giving rewards on their "hardest" content, so cut Kabam some slack.
(Not)
We are not selling Rembrandts here, pretty sure in this days if they pick 1 and its the most popular, the creator would be more than happy.
If they are as degenerate as I am they probably have a pool to see which one is the most popular.
It's not the Sistine Chapel.
Not sure why you are so stuck on defending what’s objectively indefensibly priced.
When this feature was developed, someone asked me what I thought should be in the store. I don't think we need any additional incentives to spend in the webstore. Anybody who knows about it and has the ability to spend there is already doing it, because there is substantial additional value compared to in game. So anything we put in this store is just free stuff. So I told them I thought we should just do cool, exclusive cosmetics, because we don't really do that anywhere right now. I'm hoping eventually we can do stuff like hire famous Marvel artists to do limited profile pics (imagine a 1 of 1 foil profile pic only one person can own).
Then someone said they thought there had to be something there instead of cosmetics for players that don't care about cosmetics, and they asked if they can put a loyalty crystal in it, and I said sure because nobody is going to ever buy it so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
If your argument was about exclusive profile pictures, maybe I can see your point
I’m not the one stuck on anything. I’m just explaining my position, like I always do. Tomorrow I’ll be “stuck” on something else. As this is not my design, I’m not in a position to defend it from anything. I simply find it reasonable, and trivial to justify from a design perspective. The fact that some people see these things as “prices” even though they aren’t, and “too high” even though they are intended to be high, is something you have to defend, as the person choosing to attempt to promote a novel philosophy.
All I have to say is: I don’t think anyone who reaches the position of game economy designer would see it that way. You’re the one that has to somehow convince them to adopt your perspective. Good luck with that.
I asked chatgpt for equivalent examples:
Built in exclusive Umbrella in Rolls Royce
Free art curation in Dubai Ultra Luxury Apartment
Free custom champagne on owning privet jet
Free citizenship on purchasing private island
etc.
Guitar = Represents spenders purchasing items like crystals, units, or offer packs — where actual money is spent.
Polishing cloths = Represent the emotes that come free with the main purchase. They're useful, but not what people spend money on directly.
These emotes are free bonuses for spenders — not the primary item you're paying for, and definitely not something you spend money just to get.
Or we can look at the pricing models of other Kabam art like the “elite” purple border profile pictures, priced at 500 units each, a real world valuation (that a Kabam game economy designer set) of $20 USD. These “guitar cloths” have them been assigned a real world value that’s 86x (that’s an x not a %) more than the current highest price for pixel art in this game. It’s a valuation that’s approx. 80% more than Dark Phoenix, a trophy Character that was a top milestone reward in an event that paid out far more.
So don’t worry about my “confusion”. Like I said it’s objectively poorly priced… by Kabam’s own standards.
I get that these are supposed to be fun trinkets, that they are supposed “meaningless add ons… but sorry these prices ain’t it. Maybe if they were reasonably attainable then that goal would be hit. Heck we get one of these emotes for free every BGs season. This serves more as a warning sign to get a new hobby
But let's get to the real issue of this being a terrible and inaccurate analogy. The only access I have to that free cloth (which may or may not exist for free) is through the spending. Okay, that's fine, the analogy kinda works there. The only access to these emotes is through insane spending. Cool, we can get there with this.
But Gibson doesn't advertise that "free" cloth as a reward for being loyal to the brand, and you have no reasonable free access to any Gibson guitar without spending. There's no structure of spend X get X. If I want to access ANYTHING from Gibson, I spend. Access to this game begins at being free. You guys said, "hey, we want to reward loyalty". Not surprising, a great deal of detail was left out - ya know, the usual detail that would've upset most players prior to launch rather than after launch.
The issue is not the emotes. The issue is not the incursion crystal. This issue is not that they're overvalued to Pluto and back (and yes, you're getting plenty more along the way and these are just freebies). The issue is that you put a price tag on loyalty for a game predominantly made of players that don't or can't spend and told them that their loyalty means absolutely nothing and will go unnoticed and unrewarded.
It was a pretty fair and reasonable assumption for all of us that at least with the market points we get every week we might be able to build up to something cool in this new loyalty program. But apparently an emote every 86 weeks or an incursion crystal every 4 years is just too much for the people that can't afford them.
Why not reward the loyalty of the largest portion of your player base? Because if they all go, so does the game.
Why not reasonably reward the loyalty of your moderate spenders? If I do the math, my (current and likely to be reduced) spending, since the sigil doesn't even get you points, and since the monthly units are only in game, will probably be able to garner about 500 points per year, maybe as much as 2,000 if I get a cyber weekend or J4 deal. Huzzah! In just 6 short years I'll have a new emote! Here I am spending probably $30 a month on average, fluctuating depending on the month, and I'm being told that I'm not loyal enough to have a reasonable chance to earn low value items in customer loyalty program. What about the rest of the moderate spenders like me?
With this "loyalty" program, you haven't just reserved stuff for spenders. You've reserved stuff for the wealthy players and only for them. At the end of the day, should they get more for their spending? Absolutely! Definitely not begrudging that big spenders have access to more stuff, and especially not upset that this is the stuff that they get special access to. At the end of the day, it is those spenders that do the most to keep the lights on.
But to call this a loyalty program is tone deaf. You've just told 99% of your players that they're not loyal enough, so why should they be?
If something isn't for everyone, stop pretending that it is until we find out that it's not.