The Problem With Compensation and It's Solution

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Comments

  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 2,992 ★★★★★
    edited August 2018
    It’s a “fits no one” solution and it deserves even more scorn than it is getting. I want to use words like “cowardly” to describe the way it has been handled, but I’m not even sure that’s potent enough.

    Larger question is why it took weeks to come up with this “appreciation” package. Which departments at Kabam had a hand in it? What were the alternatives considered and why was this the winner?

    I’m still trying to remember if this was the same problem the game team sought out community help to resolve.

    Dr. Zola
  • DrZola wrote: »
    Jaffacaked wrote: »
    DrZola wrote: »
    62lhnn1hpjsu.jpeg

    This is the post I recall from July 6, when there was quite a stir about overheating. Which is my point: there was nothing in-game ever (not that I received), and players like me were trying to figure out what was wrong with their phones for a day or so. Venturing onto the forums, I believe this was the first official pronouncement other than asking for information on the issue (OS, model, etc.). “Worst offenders” is the phrase i couldn’t remember, and it appears to single out 11.4 as a source of the problem.

    If it wasn’t clear, I meant that it was ambiguous what caused the issue to players at the onset. So playing to the point of shutdown may have alerted players to a problem with 19.0, but it also may not have. I think that’s the point @DNA3000 makes above (and that I was making).

    Dr. Zola

    For the first week they kept deleting threads an not even acknowledging that there was as problem with overheating.

    I seem to recall overheating is
    St333lll wrote: »
    I just wanted to ask. Has anyone received anything really good from compensation. Like. Have you ever gotten what you needed to get to 10k shards and then opened someone good? Cause mine are always bad pulls

    In an ideal world, we would. Since the 5* pool expanded to 80+ champs a month or so ago, I’ve convinced myself I have about a 1/3 shot at a new champ or a dupe I would be excited about. In my last 7-8 crystals, however, I haven’t wound up in that “1/3 Good” category at all.

    I’m confident it’s random. Even so, I would like to see some sort of regular reporting of how that randomness plays out in-game. For example, it would be nice to see the distribution of crystal pulls from the GwenPool Goes to the Movies Epic quest exploration crystals—not because I think the game team purposefully rigs the crystals (they don’t), but because I think it would be helpful to understand what an acceptable level of randomness means to the people who code it into the game. Think of it as a “mini-audit” that gets shared with the community.

    Dr. Zola

    That would be interesting to see, although I doubt the devs really think about what "acceptable randomness" means because they assume the RNG functions supplied by their compiler is sufficiently random. I'd personally monitor those statistics if I was in charge, though, as those would alert them to systematic errors introduced by bugs in the random drop algorithms, which I've seen happen a few times.
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 2,992 ★★★★★
    edited August 2018
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    DrZola wrote: »
    Jaffacaked wrote: »
    DrZola wrote: »
    62lhnn1hpjsu.jpeg

    This is the post I recall from July 6, when there was quite a stir about overheating. Which is my point: there was nothing in-game ever (not that I received), and players like me were trying to figure out what was wrong with their phones for a day or so. Venturing onto the forums, I believe this was the first official pronouncement other than asking for information on the issue (OS, model, etc.). “Worst offenders” is the phrase i couldn’t remember, and it appears to single out 11.4 as a source of the problem.

    If it wasn’t clear, I meant that it was ambiguous what caused the issue to players at the onset. So playing to the point of shutdown may have alerted players to a problem with 19.0, but it also may not have. I think that’s the point @DNA3000 makes above (and that I was making).

    Dr. Zola

    For the first week they kept deleting threads an not even acknowledging that there was as problem with overheating.

    I seem to recall overheating is
    St333lll wrote: »
    I just wanted to ask. Has anyone received anything really good from compensation. Like. Have you ever gotten what you needed to get to 10k shards and then opened someone good? Cause mine are always bad pulls

    In an ideal world, we would. Since the 5* pool expanded to 80+ champs a month or so ago, I’ve convinced myself I have about a 1/3 shot at a new champ or a dupe I would be excited about. In my last 7-8 crystals, however, I haven’t wound up in that “1/3 Good” category at all.

    I’m confident it’s random. Even so, I would like to see some sort of regular reporting of how that randomness plays out in-game. For example, it would be nice to see the distribution of crystal pulls from the GwenPool Goes to the Movies Epic quest exploration crystals—not because I think the game team purposefully rigs the crystals (they don’t), but because I think it would be helpful to understand what an acceptable level of randomness means to the people who code it into the game. Think of it as a “mini-audit” that gets shared with the community.

    Dr. Zola

    That would be interesting to see, although I doubt the devs really think about what "acceptable randomness" means because they assume the RNG functions supplied by their compiler is sufficiently random. I'd personally monitor those statistics if I was in charge, though, as those would alert them to systematic errors introduced by bugs in the random drop algorithms, which I've seen happen a few times.

    I’d feel better if you were monitoring them.

    Many, many years ago Walter Matthau taught me what happens when you “assume” in The Bad News Bears.

    Dr. Zola
  • DrZola wrote: »
    It’s a “fits no one” solution and it deserves even more scorn than it is getting. I want to use words like “cowardly” to describe the way it has been handled, but I’m not even sure that’s potent enough.

    Larger question is why it took weeks to come up with this “appreciation” package. Which departments at Kabam had a hand in it? What were the alternatives considered and why was this the winner?

    I’m still trying to remember if this was the same problem the game team sought out community help to resolve.

    Dr. Zola

    I'm honestly confused. Although a moderator commented that the summoner appreciation week announcement was in fact what Kabam was referring to earlier when they said they were discussing compensation for various issues, the actual announcement doesn't anywhere state that this is compensation for anything. That's doubly weird in the context of Miike's statement that Kabam views compensation as something intended to be specific and targeted, and intended *only* to replace direct losses due to problems, not to compensate for intangibles or losses outside of the game. That would seem to imply that all compensation packages would specify not only that they were compensation packages, but what specifically they were compensation packages for.

    Since we've had summoner appreciation events in the past, and since the actual intent of summoner appreciation events should be (its right in the title) to give something over and above normal to show appreciation, an SA cannot simultaneously function as a compensation for anything. So this seems extremely poorly thought out to me. I can't even describe it as "cowardly" or even "bad." It seems completely random and untargeted.
  • MninobodyMninobody Posts: 147
    There isn’t simple randomness at all. We all have the proof in our rosters. Less than 20% of the community has multiple OP champs. But more than 90% of the community has all the worst champs. They will never admit each hero has a different drop rate.
    And before they come on forums saying conspiracy theory. Prove it isn’t individual hero randomness and it is each hero has the exact same % on data or legal statement before go there. Stop being like the current US administration and say it is with no proof but obvious proof against it expecting all to be ignorant and believe it.
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 2,992 ★★★★★
    edited August 2018
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    DrZola wrote: »
    It’s a “fits no one” solution and it deserves even more scorn than it is getting. I want to use words like “cowardly” to describe the way it has been handled, but I’m not even sure that’s potent enough.

    Larger question is why it took weeks to come up with this “appreciation” package. Which departments at Kabam had a hand in it? What were the alternatives considered and why was this the winner?

    I’m still trying to remember if this was the same problem the game team sought out community help to resolve.

    Dr. Zola

    I'm honestly confused. Although a moderator commented that the summoner appreciation week announcement was in fact what Kabam was referring to earlier when they said they were discussing compensation for various issues, the actual announcement doesn't anywhere state that this is compensation for anything. That's doubly weird in the context of Miike's statement that Kabam views compensation as something intended to be specific and targeted, and intended *only* to replace direct losses due to problems, not to compensate for intangibles or losses outside of the game. That would seem to imply that all compensation packages would specify not only that they were compensation packages, but what specifically they were compensation packages for.

    Since we've had summoner appreciation events in the past, and since the actual intent of summoner appreciation events should be (its right in the title) to give something over and above normal to show appreciation, an SA cannot simultaneously function as a compensation for anything. So this seems extremely poorly thought out to me. I can't even describe it as "cowardly" or even "bad." It seems completely random and untargeted.

    The comment mentioning it as compensation is from Kabam Lyra a little further down in the event discussion thread. The more I reread it, the more cryptic it all seems.

    I used “cowardly” because my initial read was that it was apparently tossed together after weeks of doing nothing, an interim package could have been provided that would have assuaged some of the energy and resource drain during July’s events, and there was no real mention of apology or compensation or restitution or whatever people want to call it. It was just tossed out there. In that vein, I’m fine with random and untargeted too.

    Dr. Zola
  • Mninobody wrote: »
    There isn’t simple randomness at all. We all have the proof in our rosters. Less than 20% of the community has multiple OP champs. But more than 90% of the community has all the worst champs. They will never admit each hero has a different drop rate.
    And before they come on forums saying conspiracy theory. Prove it isn’t individual hero randomness and it is each hero has the exact same % on data or legal statement before go there. Stop being like the current US administration and say it is with no proof but obvious proof against it expecting all to be ignorant and believe it.

    In fact, this statement is not difficult to prove false. Crystal openings that are live streamed, and thus cannot be self-selected to be better or worse than average, demonstrate conclusively that this statement is astronomically improbable.
  • What I hate the most is that Mike says one thing and Lyra says something else and now it's Friday evening and we have a whole weekend before there is even a chance at receiveing answers. It feels like they announce these things last minute and so they can wait the weekend for everyone to "cool off" before they actually address anything. It just doesn't feel like they try to communicate with us when it comes to compensation. It's extremely frustrating when we are told one thing and given another.
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 2,992 ★★★★★
    Werewrym wrote: »
    What I hate the most is that Mike says one thing and Lyra says something else and now it's Friday evening and we have a whole weekend before there is even a chance at receiveing answers. It feels like they announce these things last minute and so they can wait the weekend for everyone to "cool off" before they actually address anything. It just doesn't feel like they try to communicate with us when it comes to compensation. It's extremely frustrating when we are told one thing and given another.

    Is it safe to say their approach fails to make you feel appreciated?

    Dr. Zola
  • DTMelodicMetalDTMelodicMetal Posts: 2,785 ★★★★★
    khehmist wrote: »
    Delaying is a tactic. Angry people calm down in time, less angry people expect less in compensation.

    Everything here is a tactic. Kabam's primary goal isn't for MCOC to be the best and fairest game it can be, it's how to make it get as much money as possible from the people that play it.

    I'll bet that there's as much consumer psychology that goes into this thing as coding (and double than what goes into server integrity) :)

    If they are using consumer psychology their application is flawed. Customer satisfaction is worth more $ than other factors. Happy customers speak highly of your product and tell people who aren't using your product to try it, this often creates more customers and more revenue long-term. IMHO MCOC would benefit more if people with backgrounds in Economics offered advice because numbers are easier to apply than theories on how people behave in and react to situations.
  • Ace_03Ace_03 Posts: 871 ★★★★
    khehmist wrote: »
    Delaying is a tactic. Angry people calm down in time, less angry people expect less in compensation.

    Everything here is a tactic. Kabam's primary goal isn't for MCOC to be the best and fairest game it can be, it's how to make it get as much money as possible from the people that play it.

    I'll bet that there's as much consumer psychology that goes into this thing as coding (and double than what goes into server integrity) :)

    If they are using consumer psychology their application is flawed. Customer satisfaction is worth more $ than other factors. Happy customers speak highly of your product and tell people who aren't using your product to try it, this often creates more customers and more revenue long-term. IMHO MCOC would benefit more if people with backgrounds in Economics offered advice because numbers are easier to apply than theories on how people behave in and react to situations.

    Maybe we are giving them too much credit, and they are not as bright as we think.
  • MninobodyMninobody Posts: 147
    @DNA3000 either you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or you have no idea what I was saying. You think a 1000 videos over a 400,000 thousand probability proves some fact? No need to get into a debate about something you have no evidence in.
  • Ace_03 wrote: »
    khehmist wrote: »
    Delaying is a tactic. Angry people calm down in time, less angry people expect less in compensation.

    Everything here is a tactic. Kabam's primary goal isn't for MCOC to be the best and fairest game it can be, it's how to make it get as much money as possible from the people that play it.

    I'll bet that there's as much consumer psychology that goes into this thing as coding (and double than what goes into server integrity) :)

    If they are using consumer psychology their application is flawed. Customer satisfaction is worth more $ than other factors. Happy customers speak highly of your product and tell people who aren't using your product to try it, this often creates more customers and more revenue long-term. IMHO MCOC would benefit more if people with backgrounds in Economics offered advice because numbers are easier to apply than theories on how people behave in and react to situations.

    Maybe we are giving them too much credit, and they are not as bright as we think.

    There seems to be this weird narrative that many people feel perfectly comfortable with, that Kabam is simultaneously incredible mad geniuses when it comes to planning monetization efficiency and psychological manipulation, and yet completely incompetent at actually implementing those plans.

    Someone once said, and I'm almost paraphrasing literally, that everything Kabam does they only do because it makes them more money, and it is because of this that no one wants to spend on the game anymore. This should be a koan.

    Kabam is a game development studio, and like all such studios they have good days and bad days, smart people and less smart people, they do good things and they make terrible errors. *Nothing* Kabam does isn't something I've seen many, many times before (but that's not a good thing), and I doubt they are doing it maliciously. Sometimes, that's just the best they can do, and sometimes, that's just what someone decided was the best they could do.

    A part of me is even wondering if things like "summoner appreciation" are even a developer thing, or actually something publishing has ultimate authority over. They used to self-publish, but I wonder if Netmarble is really the publisher now.
  • BigDaddyJoeBigDaddyJoe Posts: 357 ★★
    f2o31fs8fog5.jpeg
  • BigDaddyJoeBigDaddyJoe Posts: 357 ★★
    This made me feel appreciated seeing this 🙄
  • BigDaddyJoeBigDaddyJoe Posts: 357 ★★
    Yea I’m late to the party. Trucos caught my attention to the community forums
  • Mninobody wrote: »
    @DNA3000 either you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about or you have no idea what I was saying. You think a 1000 videos over a 400,000 thousand probability proves some fact? No need to get into a debate about something you have no evidence in.

    I believe I've done professional statistical analysis, I've done it for actual online games, I've detected and helped correct statistical errors in random drop systems, and proven random generators to be statistically random within the normal criteria for randomness generally accepted for those systems. Also, I was one of the people who did the early analysis of PHC drops and 5* featured drops, and I'm one of the original sources for the "20-25%" drop numbers, as well as the source for the "1 in 100 to 1 in 120" 4* drop odds from the pre-published PHCs.

    Statistical analysis cannot explicitly prove that a drop odds number is something exactly, but it can prove beyond a reasonable doubt what the range of values can be, and it can rule out other possibilities such as skewed odds.

    Also: I'm not debating you: I'm correcting you.
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 2,992 ★★★★★
    edited August 2018
    DNA3000 wrote: »
    Ace_03 wrote: »
    khehmist wrote: »
    Delaying is a tactic. Angry people calm down in time, less angry people expect less in compensation.

    Everything here is a tactic. Kabam's primary goal isn't for MCOC to be the best and fairest game it can be, it's how to make it get as much money as possible from the people that play it.

    I'll bet that there's as much consumer psychology that goes into this thing as coding (and double than what goes into server integrity) :)

    If they are using consumer psychology their application is flawed. Customer satisfaction is worth more $ than other factors. Happy customers speak highly of your product and tell people who aren't using your product to try it, this often creates more customers and more revenue long-term. IMHO MCOC would benefit more if people with backgrounds in Economics offered advice because numbers are easier to apply than theories on how people behave in and react to situations.

    Maybe we are giving them too much credit, and they are not as bright as we think.

    There seems to be this weird narrative that many people feel perfectly comfortable with, that Kabam is simultaneously incredible mad geniuses when it comes to planning monetization efficiency and psychological manipulation, and yet completely incompetent at actually implementing those plans.

    Someone once said, and I'm almost paraphrasing literally, that everything Kabam does they only do because it makes them more money, and it is because of this that no one wants to spend on the game anymore. This should be a koan.

    Kabam is a game development studio, and like all such studios they have good days and bad days, smart people and less smart people, they do good things and they make terrible errors. *Nothing* Kabam does isn't something I've seen many, many times before (but that's not a good thing), and I doubt they are doing it maliciously. Sometimes, that's just the best they can do, and sometimes, that's just what someone decided was the best they could do.

    A part of me is even wondering if things like "summoner appreciation" are even a developer thing, or actually something publishing has ultimate authority over. They used to self-publish, but I wonder if Netmarble is really the publisher now.

    I think the general rule of thumb is never to assume malice when incompetence is a reasonable explanation.

    Hence, incompetence it is.

    Dr. Zola
  • DrZola wrote: »
    Werewrym wrote: »
    What I hate the most is that Mike says one thing and Lyra says something else and now it's Friday evening and we have a whole weekend before there is even a chance at receiveing answers. It feels like they announce these things last minute and so they can wait the weekend for everyone to "cool off" before they actually address anything. It just doesn't feel like they try to communicate with us when it comes to compensation. It's extremely frustrating when we are told one thing and given another.

    Is it safe to say their approach fails to make you feel appreciated?

    Dr. Zola

    That's a pretty safe assumption...
  • FivesFives Posts: 118 ★★
    Werewrym wrote: »
    What I hate the most is that Mike says one thing and Lyra says something else and now it's Friday evening and we have a whole weekend before there is even a chance at receiveing answers. It feels like they announce these things last minute and so they can wait the weekend for everyone to "cool off" before they actually address anything. It just doesn't feel like they try to communicate with us when it comes to compensation. It's extremely frustrating when we are told one thing and given another.


    Well, being that I use iOS, I doubt I’m gonna be cooling off anytime soon. I WAS planning on removing the bandages from my hands, but on second thought, it doesn’t seem like the burns are healing in the foreseeable future.

    On that note, all in favor of raising hellfire when they come back? I just know I’ll be steaming over the weekend.
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