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Due to issues related to the release of Mastery Loadouts, the "free swap" period will be extended.
The new end date will be May 1st.
GULK 'Face Me' either needs to be re-written or start working as is written.
Darkness275
Posts: 818 ★★★★
I know there are a ton of threads about this, particularly revolving around 'Face Me' not working against Bane, Flare etc...
It always ends up with people saying 'Bane isn't a debuff' which Kabam Miike himself has stated as reason for Face Me not triggering against it.
Which starts a rather pedantic discussion about why Starburst is considered a de-buff while Bane, Flare, Dismay are not.
Kabam, you then need to re-write the description of 'Face Me' because it makes absolutely no mention of the word 'debuff' which kind of shoots all of your previous explanations out of the water.
"Hulk becomes Enraged while under the Effects of a cowardly Passive Damage Over Time Effect. ..."
That's it, cowardly passive effect.
Flare CERTAINLY fits that description.
Bane and Dismay - arguments could be made about why they're not 'cowardly', they're dependent upon the fight itself. Hitting someone or an active combo (losing a combo, etc). But your explanations have always been "Well, they're not debuffs, they're passive abilities."
'Cowardly passive effect' That's it. That's all it says. Doesn't specify the difference between debuff or ability.
Starburst triggers it, so should Flare.
Bane and Dismay... maybe even Life Transfer and Brute Force, again, an argument could be made that they don't fit the 'cowardly' part of the description, but that's a pretty weak argument and all your previous/official statements have been that they're 'not debuffs'.
'cowardly Passive Damage Over Time Effect' Again - no distinction between debuff or ability.
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes.
--- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Is it Cowardly? Yes.
--- It's literally no different than anything else which triggers Face Me. The only way around it is to end the fight faster. So the attacker need to be aggressive, the effect itself is still cowardly. THIS is also why saying "It's not cowardly" is a pretty weak explanation for Bane, Life Transfer, Dismay, etc... it's pedantic and pathetically so. The EFFECT ITSELF is still cowardly because it's just a passive effect causing what? Damge over Time. Which leads to the next criteria..
Is it a Damage over Time effect? Yes.
That's it. That's the only criteria which needs to be met as defined by Face Me.
Flare should ABSOLUTELY trigger it.
Life Transfer, Bane, Dismay should also... but as I said, there's a very weak out for you by trying to claim they're not cowardly.
You can't use "They're not debuffs" because that's not a parameter listed anywhere in the description of Face Me.
They're effects which passively cause damage over time.
Please, either re-write the description of Face Me - as we all know you will - or make it start working as it was written.
It always ends up with people saying 'Bane isn't a debuff' which Kabam Miike himself has stated as reason for Face Me not triggering against it.
Which starts a rather pedantic discussion about why Starburst is considered a de-buff while Bane, Flare, Dismay are not.
Kabam, you then need to re-write the description of 'Face Me' because it makes absolutely no mention of the word 'debuff' which kind of shoots all of your previous explanations out of the water.
"Hulk becomes Enraged while under the Effects of a cowardly Passive Damage Over Time Effect. ..."
That's it, cowardly passive effect.
Flare CERTAINLY fits that description.
Bane and Dismay - arguments could be made about why they're not 'cowardly', they're dependent upon the fight itself. Hitting someone or an active combo (losing a combo, etc). But your explanations have always been "Well, they're not debuffs, they're passive abilities."
'Cowardly passive effect' That's it. That's all it says. Doesn't specify the difference between debuff or ability.
Starburst triggers it, so should Flare.
Bane and Dismay... maybe even Life Transfer and Brute Force, again, an argument could be made that they don't fit the 'cowardly' part of the description, but that's a pretty weak argument and all your previous/official statements have been that they're 'not debuffs'.
'cowardly Passive Damage Over Time Effect' Again - no distinction between debuff or ability.
If you keep that description, PLEASE explain to me how Flare at the very least does not trigger Face Me. It's a cowardly passive effect which causes damage over time. It shouldn't matter whether you 'intended' it to trigger Face Me or not (as was officially started by Miike as the reasoning behind Bane not doing it). The description clearly indicates the parameters for Face Me.
Is it Passive? Yes.
--- If your reply is that it's not Passive, please then explain to me how it can be avoided/canceled.
Is it Cowardly? Yes.
--- It's literally no different than anything else which triggers Face Me. The only way around it is to end the fight faster. So the attacker need to be aggressive, the effect itself is still cowardly. THIS is also why saying "It's not cowardly" is a pretty weak explanation for Bane, Life Transfer, Dismay, etc... it's pedantic and pathetically so. The EFFECT ITSELF is still cowardly because it's just a passive effect causing what? Damge over Time. Which leads to the next criteria..
Is it a Damage over Time effect? Yes.
That's it. That's the only criteria which needs to be met as defined by Face Me.
Flare should ABSOLUTELY trigger it.
Life Transfer, Bane, Dismay should also... but as I said, there's a very weak out for you by trying to claim they're not cowardly.
You can't use "They're not debuffs" because that's not a parameter listed anywhere in the description of Face Me.
They're effects which passively cause damage over time.
Please, either re-write the description of Face Me - as we all know you will - or make it start working as it was written.
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Comments
Passive, which means, not a debuff. A debuff is an active ability. There is no such thing as "passive debuff". So anything that is passive is not a buff/debuff.
Ghulk was created after the introduction of those nodes. With their creation, they intended to change our playstyle, or create different scenarios than the ones we already knew.
While they put his ability working with starburst, they made some exceptions. Effects that aren't debuffs or passive abilities. You simply "lose HP", and thats it.
Once again, debuff, ability, etc... that's not indicated.
What does it matter whether he was introduced before or after these things? What does it matter whether or not the devs thought about how they'd interact. I could care less about that, the way the ability is written, it should activate.
As asked above, are you really trying to indicate that these are not passive damage over time effects?
These nodes were created to have no counter for them. Even with the introduction of Ghulk, they decided to remain that way. If they plan to change something in the future, that's different. But for now it just works like it's neither a debuff or passive damage over time.
Once again, it doesn't matter why or how the nodes were created. Or what the Devs intended or that it's an oversight.
The description of Face Me clearly indicates the parameters needed for activation. These nodes clearly fit those parameters.
Kabam needs to re-write the description of the ability - as I'm certain they will do - or they need to make Face Me work as is clearly written. Otherwise, I ask again, are you trying to suggest these are not effects which passively cause damage over time?
debuff is not passive.
if its a debuff it wont work.
its quite simple in that regard.
as for DOT that is not a debuff I am not sure wat doesn't work.
but it would be things that are just that passive. something that is an active ability will not work.
what needs some clarification is not gulks ability at all.
maybe we need some clarification as to what makes and ability a passive or an active.
debuff is simple. indicated by a white circle around the icon.
abilities however are open to interpretation as to what is active and what is passive
It's an effect, that's it. That's all.
Can you explain why Starburst triggers Face Me but Flare does not?
It's passive, because it can't be avoided or removed, it can't be negated or nullified.
It causes damage over time.
It's a passive effect which causes damage over time.
Life Transfer is a good example of this. As is, to an extent, Bane.
These are still passive damage over time effects - but they can be 'transfered' or their degeneration depends on striking an opponent/being struck. So let's throw Dismay in there too right? They're not 'Cowardly' because of this. Right?
This however is not any explanation Kabam has previously provided to us, and it's a weak rational, but I will acknowledge that it exists. However, could an argument not also be made that the damage over time effect IS cowardly, because it depends on the passivity of the defender and the aggression of the attacker?
Bane transfers over if you get hit, yes, but it also transfers regardless of your actions, you need timing.
Dismay affects you if you're hit/lose your combo.
But once your combo is lost there's no way to avoid/get rid of Dismay, no matter how aggressive you are. It's the very definition of a passive damage over time effect.
Life Transfer is possibly the BEST one this argument can be used for.
Otherwise, they're all passive damage over time effects and trying to say they're not is just a lie.
Trying to use 'cowardly' as the descriptor which eliminates them from triggering Face Me does NOT eliminate or explain why Flare doesn't trigger it. Nor is it even a strong argument for the rest and IF that's the argument you want to go with can we please get an official description of what 'cowardly' means and why some passive effects fall under it while others don't? Because Flare is completely unavoidable, no matter how aggressive or defensive I am. It's 100% Passive and is absolutely a damage over time effect. Bane transfers regardless of my actions. Dismay, one small mistake and it's set on me.
Granted, for Dismay I could simply get hit early and get it applied to me so I'll take no damage and then fight as normal, but that doesn't change the fact that it is still effectively a passive damage over time effect.
Again. I'm merely trying to state, the Face Me ability either needs to be re-written, or start working as it is clearly written.
"Hulk becomes Enraged while under the Effects of a cowardly Passive Damage Over Time Effect."
If its outline is solid and its dealing damage to you, then it should be considered passive damage over time.
Starburst can't be avoided and you gain nothing for it so makes sense.
Bane/dismay can be almost entirely avoided with skill.
Life transfer is basically a trade off you gain life steal for degen. (Not really cowardly) actually a very good node for ghulks aggressive play style.
Also if you finish a life transfer fight below 90% then your skills are lacking.
Flare once again you gain what 100-400% attack boost (haven't read it in awhile) for degen. So still not cowardly. Also works with Ghulks aggressive play style
They just hate imbalance in the game. Maybe that's why they don't wanna give bane node as a passive damage overtime effect that can trigger Face Me.
Maybe
Maybe
It's a passive effect. Ability, debuff, whatever you want to call it doesn't matter.... it's an effect which passively causes you to suffer damage over time and should trigger 'Face Me' because they meet the criteria as it is clearly defined.
"It belongs to a mechanic we can't and haven't defined yet" Is just a way of saying "Uh... we didn't actually anticipate, test or intend for this so.... it's not going to work that way and that's the end of the discussion."
Which is actually very close to what Miike stated in a thread about Bane. His comment was that it wasn't meant to work with Face Me so it doesn't. Once again, that intention doesn't matter... there are clearly written parameters for Face Me and these meet those parameters as all in-game mechanics are currently defined. This doesn't matter. It shouldn't matter whether or not they can be avoided, doesn't matter whether they were intended to trigger it, when they were added... they're passive effects which cause damage over time. Agreed, as I said in an earlier post Life Transfer is really the only good example of a passive effect not activating Face Me. I could make an argument for it, but it's the best argument for "It's not 'cowardly' therefore it doesn't enrage Gulk." Agreed but that's irrelevant. It doesn't matter that you're gaining something. It causes damage over time, passively. The argument would be that you're trading health for attack boost so that doesn't make it cowardly? The damage over time is unavoidable, no matter how aggressive or passive we are. Just because it gives us a boost to attack doesn't make the effect not cowardly. That's a pretty weak argument and if that's honestly the only explanation then again, they CLEARLY need to define what a 'cowardly passive damage over time effect' is.
The effect isn't cowardly because it forces US to be aggressive? That means we aren't cowardly, it has nothing to do with the effect itself. Suppose you're on a Flare node and your opponent is being extremely passive and defensive. Regardless of your actions, you're still degenerating due to passive damage over time and it can't be avoided.
Take Starburst into consideration... the passive degeneration kicks in and punishes us for how aggressive we are. It's utterly unavoidable and only increases based on the more damage we do. What, because there's no trade-off means it's more cowardly of an effect than Flare? Get what I mean when I say that's a super weak argument to make?
Bane? You time the transfer. Still, Bane can be passed on to you regardless of your aggression and can remain on you if the AI is passive and defensive.
Again, the description simply reads "...passive damage over time effect..." that's it.
It's a passive effect which cause damage over time.
As it is currently written, the damage over time effect itself is the condition for triggering 'Face Me', not how you play around/deal with it.
The same way you play around Starburst as far as Gulk is concerned. You attack and beat them before you die.
Bane? Time the transfer. Sure, but it can get passed to you regardless of your actions and if the AI is passive and defensive enough then you can't do anything about the degeneration.
Sounds like a passive damage over time effect to me.
THAT is the condition for triggering it as 'Face Me' is currently written and as the game mechanics currently are defined. Not how you play around it.
How you play around the effects shouldn't be taken into consideration. Nor should whether or not the effect was intended/meant to trigger 'Face Me'. Is that an oversight? Sure... but it still doesn't change the fact that there are clearly defined parameters.
"...passive damage over time effect..."
That's exactly what these are.
It's just unnecessarily convoluted, all in order to inflict damage you can't avoid or trigger effects that are impossible to remove. Very scattershot design that just gets thrown in on random new champs, or in revamps.
Those of us that have been here for years may be able to decipher, but I can imagine newer players get very confused as to what the heck something truly is doing or should be doing.
One Kabam explanation regarding MODOK labs was: Not passive or active. Oh yes, that's very insightful and thought out what other effects are there exactly?
Another was: So, for full context, both of these are referring to 'Bane'.
These are the 'thought out explanations' Kabam provided us that you're talking about?
Not meant to interact. Not a debuff. Not passive. Not active.
Oh cool - so it just... doesn't exist?
I'm not splitting hairs just to be argumentative, I'm saying that this is an issue and it's not just Bane.
I would LOVE to know their definition of passive and active if this fits neither.
It is an effect which passively causes damage over time.
As 'Face Me' is currently written, the effect should trigger it - whether or not that was the intention.
Please either re-write the ability description or make it start working as it is currently being advertised.
However that doesn't mean all effects in the game must either be Buffs or Passives. There are other kinds of effects that are not buffs, not debuffs, and not passives. Something that is not tagged a buff, not tagged a debuff, and not tagged a passive would not trigger Face Me, because Face Me explicitly triggers on passive effects. Without the passive tag, nothing would happen. Things like Flare are probably not tagged as passive effects.
Flare's description states:
The Opponent gains +300% Attack, but Degenerates 100% of their Max Health over 60 seconds. The strength of the Degeneration is affected by Class Relationships.
It does not state that Flare applies a passive degeneration effect. It simply states the opponent degenerates 100% of their health over time. You cannot assume that an effect that is not a buff or debuff must be a passive.
Something is active or passive - as for 'debuff' once again, stop using that word. Because it doesn't matter.
'Face Me' denotes damage over time effect. This includes a whole host of things - however you want to define them. Buffs, abilities, debuffs, node... these are all effects. So, as 'Face Me' is currently written, anything that passively causes damage over time should fall under the definition.
Flare is an effect, which causes you to passively degenerate.
It's NO DIFFERENT in either application or effect than Starburst.
The ONLY difference is that it gives you a beneficial effect as-well. Which doesn't matter. That doesn't change anything. Yes - I acknowledge it would make Gulk super OP against this node. But that DOESN'T MATTER. Because it doesn't change the core definition of things.
Starburst definition:
Suffer Degeneration proportionate to this Champion's missing health.
Limbo
Deals xx Energy Damage per second
Soul Leech
Degenerate them for xx direct damage, over 10 seconds
NONE of those state that they're 'Passive' or 'Apply a passive degeneration effect'.
~*~
These things passively causes damage over time. Regardless of the discussion in here and regardless of what side you fall on, no-one has been able to say that it is not an effect which passively causes damage over time.
You nailed it when you said the developers are trying but not consistently succeeding in defining. That's fine. But don't bend the rules you made just because you didn't foresee how things would interact with each other and you don't like how powerful it makes a champion.
So once again, please... allow the ability to work as it is clearly written, or simply re-write the definition because "it's not active but it's not passive" (their answer for Bane) is NOT an acceptable or thought out explanation. It's the definition of lazy.