How base stats work: Specifically Attack Rating

Cendar333Cendar333 Member Posts: 303 ★
edited September 2019 in General Discussion
Hello Kabam/General Community!

I am trying to put together a video tutorial to post on YouTube for new players on how base stats work in the game and I wanted to clarify a few things on the nitty gritty about attack if people are willing/able.


How EXACTLY is attack used to calculate damage in the game (when it is not a critical hit)? Is it simply an addition/subtraction problem where the opponent's armor/resistances are simply subtracted from the attack? Is it calculated in some other way (once again excluding critical hits, I just want to know the base calculation)

How is the damage for each type of hit calculated? Is a light always X% of a champion's base attack and Medium/Heavy attacks always Y%? It doesn't seem this way from my experience of the game. If not is there perhaps a base calculation that only certain champs deviate from? I wanted to know if there is any standard to understand this better.

Does anyone know any resources already created that I can point others to if they are looking for info on how to interpret base statistics in game?

Anything anyone wants to add about attack rating specifically would be welcome! I'm trying to do my homework before making this video

Thanks,

Cendar333

Comments

  • xdethsquadxxdethsquadx Member Posts: 50 ★
    All % increases are based on the base attack. So if WS with KM increases 5% per hit, boosts and synergies dont matter. Masteries either. Even boosts. Not suicides +10% of suicide damage. You get suicide damage plus 10% of base attack.
  • xdethsquadxxdethsquadx Member Posts: 50 ★
    There is a critical rate and damage rating for every champ. That greatly chamges the amount of damage done. Everyone has a flat% based on their base attack for crits and such. Opponent block proficiency and armor change it. RNG and diminishing returns effect it too.
  • Cendar333Cendar333 Member Posts: 303 ★
    DNA3000 said:

    The basic idea is that most attacks do some multiple of attack rating in base damage. For example, all light attacks do 25% of the champion's attack rating in base damage. My recollection is that medium attacks do 40%, and heavies do 85%. Special attacks don't follow a rule like this.

    Anything that buffs attack rating automatically increases the base damage of any attack that scales with attack rating. Base damage is then increased or decreased by damage buffs and debuffs. Starting from 100% (base damage) your outgoing damage is increased by or decreased by damage buffs linearly: add them all up, and that's your final outgoing damage.

    When the damage "lands" there's a separate set of complex calculations that happens. Armor and resistances are calculated and your damage is reduced by that. If the attack is physical damage then physical resistance is used, if the attack is energy then energy resistance is used. Both are flat stats so you have to calculate the actual net armor rating from the flat stats which turns into a percentage: damage is reduced by that percentage. Armor breaks count as "negative armor." As of the last time I checked, armor break and armor are calculated separately and then combined. In other words, you DR your armor and you separately DR you "negative" armor breaks, and you then subtract the armor break percentage from your armor percentage. Oh, there's also armor penetration which allows an attacker to essentially reduce the amount of armor the target has. It also works independently of armor last I recall.

    Crits are more complicated.

    Thanks for your comment!

    Just for further clarification, let's take the example of a champion that arbitrarily has an attack rating of 100 and the defender has no armor, no resistances. There are no buffs or debuffs in play. The defending champion is not blocking. Under these circumstances the attacking champion would do 25 damage with a light attack, 40 damage on a medium attack and 85 damage on a heavy attack? Is that correct @DNA3000 ? Do these percentages vary from champion to champion?
  • Cendar333Cendar333 Member Posts: 303 ★
    And just for clarification to everyone here, like I said I want to make this video for new players. I just want to break down the specific stat "attack rating" and take a simple case with no additional resistances/armor, non-blocking and no critical hits. Just how much damage would a champion do with each of the basic attacks if everything else were completely vanilla and unmodified.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,763 Guardian
    Cendar333 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    The basic idea is that most attacks do some multiple of attack rating in base damage. For example, all light attacks do 25% of the champion's attack rating in base damage. My recollection is that medium attacks do 40%, and heavies do 85%. Special attacks don't follow a rule like this.

    Anything that buffs attack rating automatically increases the base damage of any attack that scales with attack rating. Base damage is then increased or decreased by damage buffs and debuffs. Starting from 100% (base damage) your outgoing damage is increased by or decreased by damage buffs linearly: add them all up, and that's your final outgoing damage.

    When the damage "lands" there's a separate set of complex calculations that happens. Armor and resistances are calculated and your damage is reduced by that. If the attack is physical damage then physical resistance is used, if the attack is energy then energy resistance is used. Both are flat stats so you have to calculate the actual net armor rating from the flat stats which turns into a percentage: damage is reduced by that percentage. Armor breaks count as "negative armor." As of the last time I checked, armor break and armor are calculated separately and then combined. In other words, you DR your armor and you separately DR you "negative" armor breaks, and you then subtract the armor break percentage from your armor percentage. Oh, there's also armor penetration which allows an attacker to essentially reduce the amount of armor the target has. It also works independently of armor last I recall.

    Crits are more complicated.

    Thanks for your comment!

    Just for further clarification, let's take the example of a champion that arbitrarily has an attack rating of 100 and the defender has no armor, no resistances. There are no buffs or debuffs in play. The defending champion is not blocking. Under these circumstances the attacking champion would do 25 damage with a light attack, 40 damage on a medium attack and 85 damage on a heavy attack? Is that correct @DNA3000 ? Do these percentages vary from champion to champion?
    That's correct so long as the attack doesn't crit, and as far as I'm aware this is true for all champions.
  • Mirac1eMirac1e Member Posts: 82 ★
    DNA3000 said:

    Cendar333 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    The basic idea is that most attacks do some multiple of attack rating in base damage. For example, all light attacks do 25% of the champion's attack rating in base damage. My recollection is that medium attacks do 40%, and heavies do 85%. Special attacks don't follow a rule like this.

    Anything that buffs attack rating automatically increases the base damage of any attack that scales with attack rating. Base damage is then increased or decreased by damage buffs and debuffs. Starting from 100% (base damage) your outgoing damage is increased by or decreased by damage buffs linearly: add them all up, and that's your final outgoing damage.

    When the damage "lands" there's a separate set of complex calculations that happens. Armor and resistances are calculated and your damage is reduced by that. If the attack is physical damage then physical resistance is used, if the attack is energy then energy resistance is used. Both are flat stats so you have to calculate the actual net armor rating from the flat stats which turns into a percentage: damage is reduced by that percentage. Armor breaks count as "negative armor." As of the last time I checked, armor break and armor are calculated separately and then combined. In other words, you DR your armor and you separately DR you "negative" armor breaks, and you then subtract the armor break percentage from your armor percentage. Oh, there's also armor penetration which allows an attacker to essentially reduce the amount of armor the target has. It also works independently of armor last I recall.

    Crits are more complicated.

    Thanks for your comment!

    Just for further clarification, let's take the example of a champion that arbitrarily has an attack rating of 100 and the defender has no armor, no resistances. There are no buffs or debuffs in play. The defending champion is not blocking. Under these circumstances the attacking champion would do 25 damage with a light attack, 40 damage on a medium attack and 85 damage on a heavy attack? Is that correct @DNA3000 ? Do these percentages vary from champion to champion?
    That's correct so long as the attack doesn't crit, and as far as I'm aware this is true for all champions.
    @DNA3000 I know this is an old post, but I didn’t want to create a new one for my question. How do boosts interact with mechanics that increase flat Attack Rating, such as Hulkling’s Fury, Crossbones’ Fury, or Medusa’s Fury etc? Also, how do they affect burst damage like Beta Ray Bill’s Shock bursts?

    I’ve noticed that using boosts doesn’t increase the shock burst damage as much as ranking up the champion does, even when the boosted Attack Rating is nearly the same as the increased base Attack Rating from ranking up. Why is that?
  • Fit_Fun9329Fit_Fun9329 Member Posts: 2,327 ★★★★★
    Bro just casually necrod a 6 year old post
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,763 Guardian
    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Cendar333 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    The basic idea is that most attacks do some multiple of attack rating in base damage. For example, all light attacks do 25% of the champion's attack rating in base damage. My recollection is that medium attacks do 40%, and heavies do 85%. Special attacks don't follow a rule like this.

    Anything that buffs attack rating automatically increases the base damage of any attack that scales with attack rating. Base damage is then increased or decreased by damage buffs and debuffs. Starting from 100% (base damage) your outgoing damage is increased by or decreased by damage buffs linearly: add them all up, and that's your final outgoing damage.

    When the damage "lands" there's a separate set of complex calculations that happens. Armor and resistances are calculated and your damage is reduced by that. If the attack is physical damage then physical resistance is used, if the attack is energy then energy resistance is used. Both are flat stats so you have to calculate the actual net armor rating from the flat stats which turns into a percentage: damage is reduced by that percentage. Armor breaks count as "negative armor." As of the last time I checked, armor break and armor are calculated separately and then combined. In other words, you DR your armor and you separately DR you "negative" armor breaks, and you then subtract the armor break percentage from your armor percentage. Oh, there's also armor penetration which allows an attacker to essentially reduce the amount of armor the target has. It also works independently of armor last I recall.

    Crits are more complicated.

    Thanks for your comment!

    Just for further clarification, let's take the example of a champion that arbitrarily has an attack rating of 100 and the defender has no armor, no resistances. There are no buffs or debuffs in play. The defending champion is not blocking. Under these circumstances the attacking champion would do 25 damage with a light attack, 40 damage on a medium attack and 85 damage on a heavy attack? Is that correct @DNA3000 ? Do these percentages vary from champion to champion?
    That's correct so long as the attack doesn't crit, and as far as I'm aware this is true for all champions.
    @DNA3000 I know this is an old post, but I didn’t want to create a new one for my question. How do boosts interact with mechanics that increase flat Attack Rating, such as Hulkling’s Fury, Crossbones’ Fury, or Medusa’s Fury etc? Also, how do they affect burst damage like Beta Ray Bill’s Shock bursts?

    I’ve noticed that using boosts doesn’t increase the shock burst damage as much as ranking up the champion does, even when the boosted Attack Rating is nearly the same as the increased base Attack Rating from ranking up. Why is that?
    I'm going to simplify things a bit because there are almost always caveats and exceptions and such. But for the purposes of this discussion, every champion has a base attack rating. This base attack rating is immutable: it cannot be changed by anything. When you rank a champion up, it is not so much that you're increasing your attack rating, as you are changing the champion into a different champion with a higher base attack rating. But if, say, a 6* Rank 5 Crossbones has a base attack rating of 4081, that's it. It will always be 4081. Nothing changes it.

    What does change is the net or current attack rating of the champion. If CB has a base attack rating of 4081 and you use a 20% attack boost, then his current attack rating will be 4081 x 1.2 = 4897.2. Or let's be more precise here. What is literally happening is the base attack is 4081, and the 20% attack boost adds 20% of the base attack to the current attack rating which is 4081 * 0.2 = 816.2. So your current attack rating is now 4081 + 816.2 = 4897.2.

    All boosts and buffs, where ever they come from, all add X% of the base rating to the current rating. So if you have a 20% attack boost and also run a 20% champion boost (which includes a 20% attack boost) your current attack rating will be 4081 + 816.2 + 816.2 = 5713.4.

    Suppose 7* R2 Crossbones actually had a base attack rating of 4897.2 (he doesn't, let's just assume here for discussion purposes). If you have a 6* R5 CB running a 20% attack boost, he also has the same attack rating. Now pop a 20% champion boost on both. What happens? Well, we saw that the 6R5 increased attack rating from 4897.2 to 5713.4. That's because we added an additional 816.2 attack rating: 20% of his base attack rating. However, the 7R2 CB (in this example) will go from 4897.2 to 5876.64, because in his case his base attack is 4897.2, so he gets an additional 4897.2 x 0.2 = 979.44 attack rating. His base attack is higher, so the benefit from the boost is also higher.

    This is most noticeable when a champion has a lot of attack increases like fury. There's a huge difference between a champion with base 100 attack that is constantly running +500% attack increase from furies and a champion with a base attack of 600. Additional boosts or buffs will have a larger impact on the champ with 600 attack rating than the one with 100 attack rating, because those additional boosts or buffs will be adding more base attack. All other things being equal, the more base attack (or any stat, really) you have, the more you will benefit from boosts to that stat, all other things being equal.

    The best way to think about most (but not all) boosts and buffs in MCOC is to think of them as volume knobs. All buffs stack like turning a volume knob collectively. Two different furies stack like turning a volume knob once, and then again. If you think of a 20% boost like turning a knob one notch, you can see how boosts stack. 20% and then another 20% and then another 20% is just turning a knob one notch, then another, then another. But think about where the knob was when you started. Imagine two radios both playing music at the same level of loudness. But one of them has the volume knob at 1 while the other one has its volume knob at 7. Imagine turning both knobs by the same amount, one notch upward. The second radio will go from 7 to 8, and it will get a little louder. The first radio will go from 1 to 2, and get twice as loud. Even though you turned the knob the same amount in both cases.
  • Mirac1eMirac1e Member Posts: 82 ★
    DNA3000 said:

    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Cendar333 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    The basic idea is that most attacks do some multiple of attack rating in base damage. For example, all light attacks do 25% of the champion's attack rating in base damage. My recollection is that medium attacks do 40%, and heavies do 85%. Special attacks don't follow a rule like this.

    Anything that buffs attack rating automatically increases the base damage of any attack that scales with attack rating. Base damage is then increased or decreased by damage buffs and debuffs. Starting from 100% (base damage) your outgoing damage is increased by or decreased by damage buffs linearly: add them all up, and that's your final outgoing damage.

    When the damage "lands" there's a separate set of complex calculations that happens. Armor and resistances are calculated and your damage is reduced by that. If the attack is physical damage then physical resistance is used, if the attack is energy then energy resistance is used. Both are flat stats so you have to calculate the actual net armor rating from the flat stats which turns into a percentage: damage is reduced by that percentage. Armor breaks count as "negative armor." As of the last time I checked, armor break and armor are calculated separately and then combined. In other words, you DR your armor and you separately DR you "negative" armor breaks, and you then subtract the armor break percentage from your armor percentage. Oh, there's also armor penetration which allows an attacker to essentially reduce the amount of armor the target has. It also works independently of armor last I recall.

    Crits are more complicated.

    Thanks for your comment!

    Just for further clarification, let's take the example of a champion that arbitrarily has an attack rating of 100 and the defender has no armor, no resistances. There are no buffs or debuffs in play. The defending champion is not blocking. Under these circumstances the attacking champion would do 25 damage with a light attack, 40 damage on a medium attack and 85 damage on a heavy attack? Is that correct @DNA3000 ? Do these percentages vary from champion to champion?
    That's correct so long as the attack doesn't crit, and as far as I'm aware this is true for all champions.
    @DNA3000 I know this is an old post, but I didn’t want to create a new one for my question. How do boosts interact with mechanics that increase flat Attack Rating, such as Hulkling’s Fury, Crossbones’ Fury, or Medusa’s Fury etc? Also, how do they affect burst damage like Beta Ray Bill’s Shock bursts?

    I’ve noticed that using boosts doesn’t increase the shock burst damage as much as ranking up the champion does, even when the boosted Attack Rating is nearly the same as the increased base Attack Rating from ranking up. Why is that?
    I'm going to simplify things a bit because there are almost always caveats and exceptions and such. But for the purposes of this discussion, every champion has a base attack rating. This base attack rating is immutable: it cannot be changed by anything. When you rank a champion up, it is not so much that you're increasing your attack rating, as you are changing the champion into a different champion with a higher base attack rating. But if, say, a 6* Rank 5 Crossbones has a base attack rating of 4081, that's it. It will always be 4081. Nothing changes it.

    What does change is the net or current attack rating of the champion. If CB has a base attack rating of 4081 and you use a 20% attack boost, then his current attack rating will be 4081 x 1.2 = 4897.2. Or let's be more precise here. What is literally happening is the base attack is 4081, and the 20% attack boost adds 20% of the base attack to the current attack rating which is 4081 * 0.2 = 816.2. So your current attack rating is now 4081 + 816.2 = 4897.2.

    All boosts and buffs, where ever they come from, all add X% of the base rating to the current rating. So if you have a 20% attack boost and also run a 20% champion boost (which includes a 20% attack boost) your current attack rating will be 4081 + 816.2 + 816.2 = 5713.4.

    Suppose 7* R2 Crossbones actually had a base attack rating of 4897.2 (he doesn't, let's just assume here for discussion purposes). If you have a 6* R5 CB running a 20% attack boost, he also has the same attack rating. Now pop a 20% champion boost on both. What happens? Well, we saw that the 6R5 increased attack rating from 4897.2 to 5713.4. That's because we added an additional 816.2 attack rating: 20% of his base attack rating. However, the 7R2 CB (in this example) will go from 4897.2 to 5876.64, because in his case his base attack is 4897.2, so he gets an additional 4897.2 x 0.2 = 979.44 attack rating. His base attack is higher, so the benefit from the boost is also higher.

    This is most noticeable when a champion has a lot of attack increases like fury. There's a huge difference between a champion with base 100 attack that is constantly running +500% attack increase from furies and a champion with a base attack of 600. Additional boosts or buffs will have a larger impact on the champ with 600 attack rating than the one with 100 attack rating, because those additional boosts or buffs will be adding more base attack. All other things being equal, the more base attack (or any stat, really) you have, the more you will benefit from boosts to that stat, all other things being equal.

    The best way to think about most (but not all) boosts and buffs in MCOC is to think of them as volume knobs. All buffs stack like turning a volume knob collectively. Two different furies stack like turning a volume knob once, and then again. If you think of a 20% boost like turning a knob one notch, you can see how boosts stack. 20% and then another 20% and then another 20% is just turning a knob one notch, then another, then another. But think about where the knob was when you started. Imagine two radios both playing music at the same level of loudness. But one of them has the volume knob at 1 while the other one has its volume knob at 7. Imagine turning both knobs by the same amount, one notch upward. The second radio will go from 7 to 8, and it will get a little louder. The first radio will go from 1 to 2, and get twice as loud. Even though you turned the knob the same amount in both cases.
    Got it, you meant this right?

    Champ A: Base = 1000, using +400% Fury = 5000 current

    Champ B: Base = 5000, using 0% buffs = 5000 current

    Now if we apply a 20% attack boost to both.

    Champ A:
    +20% of base = 1000 × 0.2 = +200

    New total = 5200 → +4% increase

    Champ B:
    +20% of base = 5000 × 0.2 = +1000

    New total = 6000 → +20% increase

    But my question was: do those boosts affect the potency of individual Fury effects(for some reason it feels it doesnt) — like the ones Medusa, Beta Ray Bill, or Crossbones gain or did you mean to say that boosts (whether from Recoil masteries or normal attack boosts) only increase the "Base Attack" and has no effects on the individual attack modifiers? Just wanted to be sure.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,763 Guardian
    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Cendar333 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    The basic idea is that most attacks do some multiple of attack rating in base damage. For example, all light attacks do 25% of the champion's attack rating in base damage. My recollection is that medium attacks do 40%, and heavies do 85%. Special attacks don't follow a rule like this.

    Anything that buffs attack rating automatically increases the base damage of any attack that scales with attack rating. Base damage is then increased or decreased by damage buffs and debuffs. Starting from 100% (base damage) your outgoing damage is increased by or decreased by damage buffs linearly: add them all up, and that's your final outgoing damage.

    When the damage "lands" there's a separate set of complex calculations that happens. Armor and resistances are calculated and your damage is reduced by that. If the attack is physical damage then physical resistance is used, if the attack is energy then energy resistance is used. Both are flat stats so you have to calculate the actual net armor rating from the flat stats which turns into a percentage: damage is reduced by that percentage. Armor breaks count as "negative armor." As of the last time I checked, armor break and armor are calculated separately and then combined. In other words, you DR your armor and you separately DR you "negative" armor breaks, and you then subtract the armor break percentage from your armor percentage. Oh, there's also armor penetration which allows an attacker to essentially reduce the amount of armor the target has. It also works independently of armor last I recall.

    Crits are more complicated.

    Thanks for your comment!

    Just for further clarification, let's take the example of a champion that arbitrarily has an attack rating of 100 and the defender has no armor, no resistances. There are no buffs or debuffs in play. The defending champion is not blocking. Under these circumstances the attacking champion would do 25 damage with a light attack, 40 damage on a medium attack and 85 damage on a heavy attack? Is that correct @DNA3000 ? Do these percentages vary from champion to champion?
    That's correct so long as the attack doesn't crit, and as far as I'm aware this is true for all champions.
    @DNA3000 I know this is an old post, but I didn’t want to create a new one for my question. How do boosts interact with mechanics that increase flat Attack Rating, such as Hulkling’s Fury, Crossbones’ Fury, or Medusa’s Fury etc? Also, how do they affect burst damage like Beta Ray Bill’s Shock bursts?

    I’ve noticed that using boosts doesn’t increase the shock burst damage as much as ranking up the champion does, even when the boosted Attack Rating is nearly the same as the increased base Attack Rating from ranking up. Why is that?
    I'm going to simplify things a bit because there are almost always caveats and exceptions and such. But for the purposes of this discussion, every champion has a base attack rating. This base attack rating is immutable: it cannot be changed by anything. When you rank a champion up, it is not so much that you're increasing your attack rating, as you are changing the champion into a different champion with a higher base attack rating. But if, say, a 6* Rank 5 Crossbones has a base attack rating of 4081, that's it. It will always be 4081. Nothing changes it.

    What does change is the net or current attack rating of the champion. If CB has a base attack rating of 4081 and you use a 20% attack boost, then his current attack rating will be 4081 x 1.2 = 4897.2. Or let's be more precise here. What is literally happening is the base attack is 4081, and the 20% attack boost adds 20% of the base attack to the current attack rating which is 4081 * 0.2 = 816.2. So your current attack rating is now 4081 + 816.2 = 4897.2.

    All boosts and buffs, where ever they come from, all add X% of the base rating to the current rating. So if you have a 20% attack boost and also run a 20% champion boost (which includes a 20% attack boost) your current attack rating will be 4081 + 816.2 + 816.2 = 5713.4.

    Suppose 7* R2 Crossbones actually had a base attack rating of 4897.2 (he doesn't, let's just assume here for discussion purposes). If you have a 6* R5 CB running a 20% attack boost, he also has the same attack rating. Now pop a 20% champion boost on both. What happens? Well, we saw that the 6R5 increased attack rating from 4897.2 to 5713.4. That's because we added an additional 816.2 attack rating: 20% of his base attack rating. However, the 7R2 CB (in this example) will go from 4897.2 to 5876.64, because in his case his base attack is 4897.2, so he gets an additional 4897.2 x 0.2 = 979.44 attack rating. His base attack is higher, so the benefit from the boost is also higher.

    This is most noticeable when a champion has a lot of attack increases like fury. There's a huge difference between a champion with base 100 attack that is constantly running +500% attack increase from furies and a champion with a base attack of 600. Additional boosts or buffs will have a larger impact on the champ with 600 attack rating than the one with 100 attack rating, because those additional boosts or buffs will be adding more base attack. All other things being equal, the more base attack (or any stat, really) you have, the more you will benefit from boosts to that stat, all other things being equal.

    The best way to think about most (but not all) boosts and buffs in MCOC is to think of them as volume knobs. All buffs stack like turning a volume knob collectively. Two different furies stack like turning a volume knob once, and then again. If you think of a 20% boost like turning a knob one notch, you can see how boosts stack. 20% and then another 20% and then another 20% is just turning a knob one notch, then another, then another. But think about where the knob was when you started. Imagine two radios both playing music at the same level of loudness. But one of them has the volume knob at 1 while the other one has its volume knob at 7. Imagine turning both knobs by the same amount, one notch upward. The second radio will go from 7 to 8, and it will get a little louder. The first radio will go from 1 to 2, and get twice as loud. Even though you turned the knob the same amount in both cases.
    Got it, you meant this right?

    Champ A: Base = 1000, using +400% Fury = 5000 current

    Champ B: Base = 5000, using 0% buffs = 5000 current

    Now if we apply a 20% attack boost to both.

    Champ A:
    +20% of base = 1000 × 0.2 = +200

    New total = 5200 → +4% increase

    Champ B:
    +20% of base = 5000 × 0.2 = +1000

    New total = 6000 → +20% increase

    But my question was: do those boosts affect the potency of individual Fury effects(for some reason it feels it doesnt) — like the ones Medusa, Beta Ray Bill, or Crossbones gain or did you mean to say that boosts (whether from Recoil masteries or normal attack boosts) only increase the "Base Attack" and has no effects on the individual attack modifiers? Just wanted to be sure.
    In general, attack boosts only increase current attack rating. They do not increase the potency of fury buffs. In other words, attack boosts increase attack, but they do not boost attack boosts themselves.

    I mention how attack boosts work in general, because often when people ask if attack boosts affect other attack boosts they are really asking if attack boosts increase base attack, because the two things are mathematically synonymous. In other words, if a 20% attack boost also increased the strength of a 50% fury by 20%, that would have the same effect as if the 20% attack boost directly increased base attack by 20%, and now the fury was boosting a value 20% larger by 50% which is the same thing. So these get conflated a lot.
  • TotemCorruptionTotemCorruption Member Posts: 2,434 ★★★★★
    If you go on youtube Kabam designer DaddyLongLegs has a video on this very topic that explains everything in detail.
  • Mirac1eMirac1e Member Posts: 82 ★
    TotemCorruption said:

    If you go on youtube Kabam designer DaddyLongLegs has a video on this very topic that explains everything in detail.

    Thank you, can you share the link or name of the video here?
  • Mirac1eMirac1e Member Posts: 82 ★
    DNA3000 said:

    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Cendar333 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    The basic idea is that most attacks do some multiple of attack rating in base damage. For example, all light attacks do 25% of the champion's attack rating in base damage. My recollection is that medium attacks do 40%, and heavies do 85%. Special attacks don't follow a rule like this.

    Anything that buffs attack rating automatically increases the base damage of any attack that scales with attack rating. Base damage is then increased or decreased by damage buffs and debuffs. Starting from 100% (base damage) your outgoing damage is increased by or decreased by damage buffs linearly: add them all up, and that's your final outgoing damage.

    When the damage "lands" there's a separate set of complex calculations that happens. Armor and resistances are calculated and your damage is reduced by that. If the attack is physical damage then physical resistance is used, if the attack is energy then energy resistance is used. Both are flat stats so you have to calculate the actual net armor rating from the flat stats which turns into a percentage: damage is reduced by that percentage. Armor breaks count as "negative armor." As of the last time I checked, armor break and armor are calculated separately and then combined. In other words, you DR your armor and you separately DR you "negative" armor breaks, and you then subtract the armor break percentage from your armor percentage. Oh, there's also armor penetration which allows an attacker to essentially reduce the amount of armor the target has. It also works independently of armor last I recall.

    Crits are more complicated.

    Thanks for your comment!

    Just for further clarification, let's take the example of a champion that arbitrarily has an attack rating of 100 and the defender has no armor, no resistances. There are no buffs or debuffs in play. The defending champion is not blocking. Under these circumstances the attacking champion would do 25 damage with a light attack, 40 damage on a medium attack and 85 damage on a heavy attack? Is that correct @DNA3000 ? Do these percentages vary from champion to champion?
    That's correct so long as the attack doesn't crit, and as far as I'm aware this is true for all champions.
    @DNA3000 I know this is an old post, but I didn’t want to create a new one for my question. How do boosts interact with mechanics that increase flat Attack Rating, such as Hulkling’s Fury, Crossbones’ Fury, or Medusa’s Fury etc? Also, how do they affect burst damage like Beta Ray Bill’s Shock bursts?

    I’ve noticed that using boosts doesn’t increase the shock burst damage as much as ranking up the champion does, even when the boosted Attack Rating is nearly the same as the increased base Attack Rating from ranking up. Why is that?
    I'm going to simplify things a bit because there are almost always caveats and exceptions and such. But for the purposes of this discussion, every champion has a base attack rating. This base attack rating is immutable: it cannot be changed by anything. When you rank a champion up, it is not so much that you're increasing your attack rating, as you are changing the champion into a different champion with a higher base attack rating. But if, say, a 6* Rank 5 Crossbones has a base attack rating of 4081, that's it. It will always be 4081. Nothing changes it.

    What does change is the net or current attack rating of the champion. If CB has a base attack rating of 4081 and you use a 20% attack boost, then his current attack rating will be 4081 x 1.2 = 4897.2. Or let's be more precise here. What is literally happening is the base attack is 4081, and the 20% attack boost adds 20% of the base attack to the current attack rating which is 4081 * 0.2 = 816.2. So your current attack rating is now 4081 + 816.2 = 4897.2.

    All boosts and buffs, where ever they come from, all add X% of the base rating to the current rating. So if you have a 20% attack boost and also run a 20% champion boost (which includes a 20% attack boost) your current attack rating will be 4081 + 816.2 + 816.2 = 5713.4.

    Suppose 7* R2 Crossbones actually had a base attack rating of 4897.2 (he doesn't, let's just assume here for discussion purposes). If you have a 6* R5 CB running a 20% attack boost, he also has the same attack rating. Now pop a 20% champion boost on both. What happens? Well, we saw that the 6R5 increased attack rating from 4897.2 to 5713.4. That's because we added an additional 816.2 attack rating: 20% of his base attack rating. However, the 7R2 CB (in this example) will go from 4897.2 to 5876.64, because in his case his base attack is 4897.2, so he gets an additional 4897.2 x 0.2 = 979.44 attack rating. His base attack is higher, so the benefit from the boost is also higher.

    This is most noticeable when a champion has a lot of attack increases like fury. There's a huge difference between a champion with base 100 attack that is constantly running +500% attack increase from furies and a champion with a base attack of 600. Additional boosts or buffs will have a larger impact on the champ with 600 attack rating than the one with 100 attack rating, because those additional boosts or buffs will be adding more base attack. All other things being equal, the more base attack (or any stat, really) you have, the more you will benefit from boosts to that stat, all other things being equal.

    The best way to think about most (but not all) boosts and buffs in MCOC is to think of them as volume knobs. All buffs stack like turning a volume knob collectively. Two different furies stack like turning a volume knob once, and then again. If you think of a 20% boost like turning a knob one notch, you can see how boosts stack. 20% and then another 20% and then another 20% is just turning a knob one notch, then another, then another. But think about where the knob was when you started. Imagine two radios both playing music at the same level of loudness. But one of them has the volume knob at 1 while the other one has its volume knob at 7. Imagine turning both knobs by the same amount, one notch upward. The second radio will go from 7 to 8, and it will get a little louder. The first radio will go from 1 to 2, and get twice as loud. Even though you turned the knob the same amount in both cases.
    Got it, you meant this right?

    Champ A: Base = 1000, using +400% Fury = 5000 current

    Champ B: Base = 5000, using 0% buffs = 5000 current

    Now if we apply a 20% attack boost to both.

    Champ A:
    +20% of base = 1000 × 0.2 = +200

    New total = 5200 → +4% increase

    Champ B:
    +20% of base = 5000 × 0.2 = +1000

    New total = 6000 → +20% increase

    But my question was: do those boosts affect the potency of individual Fury effects(for some reason it feels it doesnt) — like the ones Medusa, Beta Ray Bill, or Crossbones gain or did you mean to say that boosts (whether from Recoil masteries or normal attack boosts) only increase the "Base Attack" and has no effects on the individual attack modifiers? Just wanted to be sure.
    In general, attack boosts only increase current attack rating. They do not increase the potency of fury buffs. In other words, attack boosts increase attack, but they do not boost attack boosts themselves.

    I mention how attack boosts work in general, because often when people ask if attack boosts affect other attack boosts they are really asking if attack boosts increase base attack, because the two things are mathematically synonymous. In other words, if a 20% attack boost also increased the strength of a 50% fury by 20%, that would have the same effect as if the 20% attack boost directly increased base attack by 20%, and now the fury was boosting a value 20% larger by 50% which is the same thing. So these get conflated a lot.
    See, I think you are a little bit incorrect here and I have confirmed that with DLL himself, let's start with an example:
    Your Logic:
    Base = 100
    Attack Boost = +20% → makes base = 120
    Fury = 50% of 120 = 60
    So, Total = 120 + 60 = 180
    You assume the attack boost increases base, which then boosts Fury too.

    But the actual logic is:
    Base = 100
    Fury = 50% of base = 50
    Attack Boost = 20% of base = 20
    Total = 100 + 50 + 20 = 170

    The game sees each buff as scaling separately off the base, which is how the game actually calculates it.
  • TotemCorruptionTotemCorruption Member Posts: 2,434 ★★★★★
    Mirac1e said:

    TotemCorruption said:

    If you go on youtube Kabam designer DaddyLongLegs has a video on this very topic that explains everything in detail.

    Thank you, can you share the link or name of the video here?
    Yes, here's the video link:

    http://youtu.be/ga-SliROcps
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,763 Guardian
    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Cendar333 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    The basic idea is that most attacks do some multiple of attack rating in base damage. For example, all light attacks do 25% of the champion's attack rating in base damage. My recollection is that medium attacks do 40%, and heavies do 85%. Special attacks don't follow a rule like this.

    Anything that buffs attack rating automatically increases the base damage of any attack that scales with attack rating. Base damage is then increased or decreased by damage buffs and debuffs. Starting from 100% (base damage) your outgoing damage is increased by or decreased by damage buffs linearly: add them all up, and that's your final outgoing damage.

    When the damage "lands" there's a separate set of complex calculations that happens. Armor and resistances are calculated and your damage is reduced by that. If the attack is physical damage then physical resistance is used, if the attack is energy then energy resistance is used. Both are flat stats so you have to calculate the actual net armor rating from the flat stats which turns into a percentage: damage is reduced by that percentage. Armor breaks count as "negative armor." As of the last time I checked, armor break and armor are calculated separately and then combined. In other words, you DR your armor and you separately DR you "negative" armor breaks, and you then subtract the armor break percentage from your armor percentage. Oh, there's also armor penetration which allows an attacker to essentially reduce the amount of armor the target has. It also works independently of armor last I recall.

    Crits are more complicated.

    Thanks for your comment!

    Just for further clarification, let's take the example of a champion that arbitrarily has an attack rating of 100 and the defender has no armor, no resistances. There are no buffs or debuffs in play. The defending champion is not blocking. Under these circumstances the attacking champion would do 25 damage with a light attack, 40 damage on a medium attack and 85 damage on a heavy attack? Is that correct @DNA3000 ? Do these percentages vary from champion to champion?
    That's correct so long as the attack doesn't crit, and as far as I'm aware this is true for all champions.
    @DNA3000 I know this is an old post, but I didn’t want to create a new one for my question. How do boosts interact with mechanics that increase flat Attack Rating, such as Hulkling’s Fury, Crossbones’ Fury, or Medusa’s Fury etc? Also, how do they affect burst damage like Beta Ray Bill’s Shock bursts?

    I’ve noticed that using boosts doesn’t increase the shock burst damage as much as ranking up the champion does, even when the boosted Attack Rating is nearly the same as the increased base Attack Rating from ranking up. Why is that?
    I'm going to simplify things a bit because there are almost always caveats and exceptions and such. But for the purposes of this discussion, every champion has a base attack rating. This base attack rating is immutable: it cannot be changed by anything. When you rank a champion up, it is not so much that you're increasing your attack rating, as you are changing the champion into a different champion with a higher base attack rating. But if, say, a 6* Rank 5 Crossbones has a base attack rating of 4081, that's it. It will always be 4081. Nothing changes it.

    What does change is the net or current attack rating of the champion. If CB has a base attack rating of 4081 and you use a 20% attack boost, then his current attack rating will be 4081 x 1.2 = 4897.2. Or let's be more precise here. What is literally happening is the base attack is 4081, and the 20% attack boost adds 20% of the base attack to the current attack rating which is 4081 * 0.2 = 816.2. So your current attack rating is now 4081 + 816.2 = 4897.2.

    All boosts and buffs, where ever they come from, all add X% of the base rating to the current rating. So if you have a 20% attack boost and also run a 20% champion boost (which includes a 20% attack boost) your current attack rating will be 4081 + 816.2 + 816.2 = 5713.4.

    Suppose 7* R2 Crossbones actually had a base attack rating of 4897.2 (he doesn't, let's just assume here for discussion purposes). If you have a 6* R5 CB running a 20% attack boost, he also has the same attack rating. Now pop a 20% champion boost on both. What happens? Well, we saw that the 6R5 increased attack rating from 4897.2 to 5713.4. That's because we added an additional 816.2 attack rating: 20% of his base attack rating. However, the 7R2 CB (in this example) will go from 4897.2 to 5876.64, because in his case his base attack is 4897.2, so he gets an additional 4897.2 x 0.2 = 979.44 attack rating. His base attack is higher, so the benefit from the boost is also higher.

    This is most noticeable when a champion has a lot of attack increases like fury. There's a huge difference between a champion with base 100 attack that is constantly running +500% attack increase from furies and a champion with a base attack of 600. Additional boosts or buffs will have a larger impact on the champ with 600 attack rating than the one with 100 attack rating, because those additional boosts or buffs will be adding more base attack. All other things being equal, the more base attack (or any stat, really) you have, the more you will benefit from boosts to that stat, all other things being equal.

    The best way to think about most (but not all) boosts and buffs in MCOC is to think of them as volume knobs. All buffs stack like turning a volume knob collectively. Two different furies stack like turning a volume knob once, and then again. If you think of a 20% boost like turning a knob one notch, you can see how boosts stack. 20% and then another 20% and then another 20% is just turning a knob one notch, then another, then another. But think about where the knob was when you started. Imagine two radios both playing music at the same level of loudness. But one of them has the volume knob at 1 while the other one has its volume knob at 7. Imagine turning both knobs by the same amount, one notch upward. The second radio will go from 7 to 8, and it will get a little louder. The first radio will go from 1 to 2, and get twice as loud. Even though you turned the knob the same amount in both cases.
    Got it, you meant this right?

    Champ A: Base = 1000, using +400% Fury = 5000 current

    Champ B: Base = 5000, using 0% buffs = 5000 current

    Now if we apply a 20% attack boost to both.

    Champ A:
    +20% of base = 1000 × 0.2 = +200

    New total = 5200 → +4% increase

    Champ B:
    +20% of base = 5000 × 0.2 = +1000

    New total = 6000 → +20% increase

    But my question was: do those boosts affect the potency of individual Fury effects(for some reason it feels it doesnt) — like the ones Medusa, Beta Ray Bill, or Crossbones gain or did you mean to say that boosts (whether from Recoil masteries or normal attack boosts) only increase the "Base Attack" and has no effects on the individual attack modifiers? Just wanted to be sure.
    In general, attack boosts only increase current attack rating. They do not increase the potency of fury buffs. In other words, attack boosts increase attack, but they do not boost attack boosts themselves.

    I mention how attack boosts work in general, because often when people ask if attack boosts affect other attack boosts they are really asking if attack boosts increase base attack, because the two things are mathematically synonymous. In other words, if a 20% attack boost also increased the strength of a 50% fury by 20%, that would have the same effect as if the 20% attack boost directly increased base attack by 20%, and now the fury was boosting a value 20% larger by 50% which is the same thing. So these get conflated a lot.
    See, I think you are a little bit incorrect here and I have confirmed that with DLL himself, let's start with an example:
    Your Logic:
    Base = 100
    Attack Boost = +20% → makes base = 120
    Fury = 50% of 120 = 60
    So, Total = 120 + 60 = 180
    You assume the attack boost increases base, which then boosts Fury too.

    But the actual logic is:
    Base = 100
    Fury = 50% of base = 50
    Attack Boost = 20% of base = 20
    Total = 100 + 50 + 20 = 170

    The game sees each buff as scaling separately off the base, which is how the game actually calculates it.
    I think you misunderstood what I wrote, because I explicitly stated all boosts scale off of the base value. What you're quoting is where I explain that the reason why I explained how boosts work in general is because asking if boosts affect each other is mathematically synonymous with boosts scaling off of boosted base values. That is NOT how things work in MCOC. But since they are mathematically synonymous, anyone who knew that for a fact would not ask if boosts affected each other. Because mathematically speaking, that's the same thing.
  • Mirac1eMirac1e Member Posts: 82 ★
    DNA3000 said:

    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Mirac1e said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Cendar333 said:

    DNA3000 said:

    The basic idea is that most attacks do some multiple of attack rating in base damage. For example, all light attacks do 25% of the champion's attack rating in base damage. My recollection is that medium attacks do 40%, and heavies do 85%. Special attacks don't follow a rule like this.

    Anything that buffs attack rating automatically increases the base damage of any attack that scales with attack rating. Base damage is then increased or decreased by damage buffs and debuffs. Starting from 100% (base damage) your outgoing damage is increased by or decreased by damage buffs linearly: add them all up, and that's your final outgoing damage.

    When the damage "lands" there's a separate set of complex calculations that happens. Armor and resistances are calculated and your damage is reduced by that. If the attack is physical damage then physical resistance is used, if the attack is energy then energy resistance is used. Both are flat stats so you have to calculate the actual net armor rating from the flat stats which turns into a percentage: damage is reduced by that percentage. Armor breaks count as "negative armor." As of the last time I checked, armor break and armor are calculated separately and then combined. In other words, you DR your armor and you separately DR you "negative" armor breaks, and you then subtract the armor break percentage from your armor percentage. Oh, there's also armor penetration which allows an attacker to essentially reduce the amount of armor the target has. It also works independently of armor last I recall.

    Crits are more complicated.

    Thanks for your comment!

    Just for further clarification, let's take the example of a champion that arbitrarily has an attack rating of 100 and the defender has no armor, no resistances. There are no buffs or debuffs in play. The defending champion is not blocking. Under these circumstances the attacking champion would do 25 damage with a light attack, 40 damage on a medium attack and 85 damage on a heavy attack? Is that correct @DNA3000 ? Do these percentages vary from champion to champion?
    That's correct so long as the attack doesn't crit, and as far as I'm aware this is true for all champions.
    @DNA3000 I know this is an old post, but I didn’t want to create a new one for my question. How do boosts interact with mechanics that increase flat Attack Rating, such as Hulkling’s Fury, Crossbones’ Fury, or Medusa’s Fury etc? Also, how do they affect burst damage like Beta Ray Bill’s Shock bursts?

    I’ve noticed that using boosts doesn’t increase the shock burst damage as much as ranking up the champion does, even when the boosted Attack Rating is nearly the same as the increased base Attack Rating from ranking up. Why is that?
    I'm going to simplify things a bit because there are almost always caveats and exceptions and such. But for the purposes of this discussion, every champion has a base attack rating. This base attack rating is immutable: it cannot be changed by anything. When you rank a champion up, it is not so much that you're increasing your attack rating, as you are changing the champion into a different champion with a higher base attack rating. But if, say, a 6* Rank 5 Crossbones has a base attack rating of 4081, that's it. It will always be 4081. Nothing changes it.

    What does change is the net or current attack rating of the champion. If CB has a base attack rating of 4081 and you use a 20% attack boost, then his current attack rating will be 4081 x 1.2 = 4897.2. Or let's be more precise here. What is literally happening is the base attack is 4081, and the 20% attack boost adds 20% of the base attack to the current attack rating which is 4081 * 0.2 = 816.2. So your current attack rating is now 4081 + 816.2 = 4897.2.

    All boosts and buffs, where ever they come from, all add X% of the base rating to the current rating. So if you have a 20% attack boost and also run a 20% champion boost (which includes a 20% attack boost) your current attack rating will be 4081 + 816.2 + 816.2 = 5713.4.

    Suppose 7* R2 Crossbones actually had a base attack rating of 4897.2 (he doesn't, let's just assume here for discussion purposes). If you have a 6* R5 CB running a 20% attack boost, he also has the same attack rating. Now pop a 20% champion boost on both. What happens? Well, we saw that the 6R5 increased attack rating from 4897.2 to 5713.4. That's because we added an additional 816.2 attack rating: 20% of his base attack rating. However, the 7R2 CB (in this example) will go from 4897.2 to 5876.64, because in his case his base attack is 4897.2, so he gets an additional 4897.2 x 0.2 = 979.44 attack rating. His base attack is higher, so the benefit from the boost is also higher.

    This is most noticeable when a champion has a lot of attack increases like fury. There's a huge difference between a champion with base 100 attack that is constantly running +500% attack increase from furies and a champion with a base attack of 600. Additional boosts or buffs will have a larger impact on the champ with 600 attack rating than the one with 100 attack rating, because those additional boosts or buffs will be adding more base attack. All other things being equal, the more base attack (or any stat, really) you have, the more you will benefit from boosts to that stat, all other things being equal.

    The best way to think about most (but not all) boosts and buffs in MCOC is to think of them as volume knobs. All buffs stack like turning a volume knob collectively. Two different furies stack like turning a volume knob once, and then again. If you think of a 20% boost like turning a knob one notch, you can see how boosts stack. 20% and then another 20% and then another 20% is just turning a knob one notch, then another, then another. But think about where the knob was when you started. Imagine two radios both playing music at the same level of loudness. But one of them has the volume knob at 1 while the other one has its volume knob at 7. Imagine turning both knobs by the same amount, one notch upward. The second radio will go from 7 to 8, and it will get a little louder. The first radio will go from 1 to 2, and get twice as loud. Even though you turned the knob the same amount in both cases.
    Got it, you meant this right?

    Champ A: Base = 1000, using +400% Fury = 5000 current

    Champ B: Base = 5000, using 0% buffs = 5000 current

    Now if we apply a 20% attack boost to both.

    Champ A:
    +20% of base = 1000 × 0.2 = +200

    New total = 5200 → +4% increase

    Champ B:
    +20% of base = 5000 × 0.2 = +1000

    New total = 6000 → +20% increase

    But my question was: do those boosts affect the potency of individual Fury effects(for some reason it feels it doesnt) — like the ones Medusa, Beta Ray Bill, or Crossbones gain or did you mean to say that boosts (whether from Recoil masteries or normal attack boosts) only increase the "Base Attack" and has no effects on the individual attack modifiers? Just wanted to be sure.
    In general, attack boosts only increase current attack rating. They do not increase the potency of fury buffs. In other words, attack boosts increase attack, but they do not boost attack boosts themselves.

    I mention how attack boosts work in general, because often when people ask if attack boosts affect other attack boosts they are really asking if attack boosts increase base attack, because the two things are mathematically synonymous. In other words, if a 20% attack boost also increased the strength of a 50% fury by 20%, that would have the same effect as if the 20% attack boost directly increased base attack by 20%, and now the fury was boosting a value 20% larger by 50% which is the same thing. So these get conflated a lot.
    See, I think you are a little bit incorrect here and I have confirmed that with DLL himself, let's start with an example:
    Your Logic:
    Base = 100
    Attack Boost = +20% → makes base = 120
    Fury = 50% of 120 = 60
    So, Total = 120 + 60 = 180
    You assume the attack boost increases base, which then boosts Fury too.

    But the actual logic is:
    Base = 100
    Fury = 50% of base = 50
    Attack Boost = 20% of base = 20
    Total = 100 + 50 + 20 = 170

    The game sees each buff as scaling separately off the base, which is how the game actually calculates it.
    I think you misunderstood what I wrote, because I explicitly stated all boosts scale off of the base value. What you're quoting is where I explain that the reason why I explained how boosts work in general is because asking if boosts affect each other is mathematically synonymous with boosts scaling off of boosted base values. That is NOT how things work in MCOC. But since they are mathematically synonymous, anyone who knew that for a fact would not ask if boosts affected each other. Because mathematically speaking, that's the same thing.
    Fair enough, I get what you’re saying now, but honestly, the way you explained it was needlessly complicated. If the point was just that all boosts scale off base and don’t affect each other, that could’ve been said much more clearly. Bringing in the hypothetical about boosts increasing base only added confusion. We clearly agree on the actual mechanics, but your wording made it harder to follow than it had to be. As someone who's not a native English speaker, it felt like you were overexplaining something simple. That said, Sorry if I came off as rude, I genuinely appreciate you taking the time to explain it and follow up..
  • SooperSouljerSooperSouljer Member Posts: 14 ★
    Dude just watch DaddyLongLegss video. Its crazy informative and has things in it I didn't even think about. He has this Neil Degrease Tyson kinda ability to explain complex mechanics in a way somebody that know nothing about it can understand. Its REALLY good !
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