Combat Mechanics: There's No Such Thing as Defensive Ability Accuracy

DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,175 Guardian
in General Discussion
TL;DR: Offensive and Defensive ability accuracy debuffs do the same thing: they debuff ability accuracy. The difference between them is not what they affect, but *when* they take effect.


Every so often I wander around the Reddit, and every so often I reply to a post. Generally it is a technical question of some kind, and usually I get the answer right. However recently I saw a question about ability accuracy, and without thinking about it much I just parroted my basic understanding of how ability accuracy works. However, in this case I was wrong, not just in the details but also in a fundamental way that caused me to investigate further, and decide to try to settle the matter once and for all. To do that, I first did somet testing and then I decided to present a version of the question to the developers, and two Kabam designers (Kabam Niv and Kabam Broccoli) were willing to explain how this works exactly (and I have permission to source them for this post here).

I should point out that there are a lot of different ideas about how ability accuracy works, and it is possible there are a lot of players who have this completely correct, but their ideas just haven't been widely disseminated. For example, Redditor u/EmmaStore got this basically exactly right in the Reddit thread in question. Her description fits the facts, and it matches the description given to me by Kabam.

So to set the stage, here's the wrong version of ability accuracy that I believed, and I think many players believe some version of. Ability accuracy is the chance for an effect to trigger, Defensive abilities are those that are triggered when you're hit. Offensive abilities are triggered when you attack. Defensive ability accuracy reduction affects defensive abilities, and offensive ability accuracy reduction affects offensive abilities.

The problem with this description is that it doesn't fit all in-game observations. For example, in the thread I mention above, the discussion revolved around Magik's Limbo, specifically the Limbo she triggers when she gains a bar of power. Is that a defensive ability or an offensive ability? Or neither? Turns out, it depends. If you hit her and drive her to a bar of power, defensive ability accuracy reduction (say, from Falcon's Lock On) can prevent Limbo. So that sounds like this is a defensive ability. However, if she is hitting you and gains a bar of power, Lock On won't prevent Limbo. If it is a defensive ability, why doesn't Lock On work here?

One theory is that the game treats power gain from being hit as a defensive act, and thus the trigger of Limbo also a defensive act. But that seems to lead to potentially weird complications. If a defensive ability triggers another ability which triggers another ability, are they all defensive abilities? How far does that go?

As it turns out, according to Kabam Broccoli and Kabam Niv, the game doesn't care what triggered the ability at all. There is no such thing really as an offensive ability and no such thing really as a defensive ability (except colloquially). And thus there's no such thing as offensive ability accuracy or defensive ability accuracy. There's only "ability accuracy" and all abilities have it. Instead, it is the *debuffs only* that are offensive or defensive.

Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit

[Note: this presumably works for both buffs and debuffs, but I'm going to refer to debuffs in the rest of the post for simplicity]

In other words Limbo is an ability with ability accuracy. When Falcon applies Lock On, he is applying an ability accuracy debuff. Because it is a defensive ability accuracy debuff, it "flickers off and on" depending on whether Magik is being struck at that instant or not. "Frame" in the above description refers to the fact that the game divides time into individual segments which generally also correspond to animation frames. The first frame of an attack is the first segment of time when the attack is triggered. The frames where the target is being hit generally correspond to when the target is visually being struck by a component of the attack. Attacks with multiple hits can have multiple frames that trigger defensive abililty accuracy reduction.

Again, it seems there are players that have either guessed or deduced this behavior, but this isn't obvious from observation. There are multiple ways to explain why ability accuracy works in the way most people have observed. This happens to be the correct one; kudos to anyone who figured this out. I'm posting this mainly because this differed from how I assumed it worked, and this explanation did not seem to be widely held by most players.

This means that offensive and defensive ability accuracy reduction work, in a sense, by coincidence. Since most abilities Kabam wants to work "defensively" are triggered upon being hit, they will trigger at the exact moment of a hit and thus be affected by defensive ability accuracy reduction. However, anything else that triggers at the same time will also be affected by DAAR, even if it is something we don't normally consider to be a defensive ability. In fact, if you hit something at the exact moment they initiate an attack (this requires special circumstances if it is possible at all, like the target is unstoppable say) any ability that they would normally trigger as an offensive ability would be suppressed by any defensive ability accuracy debuff that was present.

So we can now put ability accuracy to bed, in terms of how it works. Some players got there on their own, the rest of us now have an official statement on ability accuracy. There's no such thing as offensive ability accuracy or defensive ability accuracy. There's just ability accuracy. Defensive ability accuracy debuffs do not debuff defensive ability accuracy, there's no such thing. Instead, defensive ability accuracy debuffs reduce *all* ability accuracy at the moment the target is hit. Offensive ability accuracy debuffs reduce *all* ability accuracy at the moment the champion initiates an attack.

This does not, however, end this story. Because offensive and defensive ability accuracy reduction are *timing* based effects, then as I said in a sense they work by coincidence. Things just happen to take place at the right time for the effects to produce the changes we expect and the developers intend. But does everything happen exactly when it is supposed to happen, and can things happen coincidentally when they are not intended to happen in a way that causes issues? Probably yes. When players are observing oddities in the game and they think ability accuracy is not working the way they think it should, there's now a new question to ask: did something happen, or not happen, in the split second it was supposed to happen for ability accuracy modifiers to take effect when they were supposed to?

And I'm curious to know if anyone has seen something in game that contradicts this explanation. As it comes directly from game designers, the description is probably accurate, but the game itself is a complex thing. There could be bugs, there could be weird unexpected interactions, there could be additional implementation details that cause the game to behave differently than the designers expect it to. If anyone has evidence of a situation that doesn't seem to follow this explanation, please let me know.

Thanks to Kabam Broccoli and Kabam Niv for taking time to explain this to me, and in turn allowing me to write up the explanation for everyone else. And thanks to u/EmmaStore for being basically right, and setting me on the right path to discovering how this actually works.
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Comments

  • Negative_100Negative_100 Member Posts: 1,650 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    TL;DR: Offensive and Defensive ability accuracy debuffs do the same thing: they debuff ability accuracy. The difference between them is not what they affect, but *when* they take effect.


    Every so often I wander around the Reddit, and every so often I reply to a post. Generally it is a technical question of some kind, and usually I get the answer right. However recently I saw a question about ability accuracy, and without thinking about it much I just parroted my basic understanding of how ability accuracy works. However, in this case I was wrong, not just in the details but also in a fundamental way that caused me to investigate further, and decide to try to settle the matter once and for all. To do that, I first did somet testing and then I decided to present a version of the question to the developers, and two Kabam designers (Kabam Niv and Kabam Broccoli) were willing to explain how this works exactly (and I have permission to source them for this post here).

    I should point out that there are a lot of different ideas about how ability accuracy works, and it is possible there are a lot of players who have this completely correct, but their ideas just haven't been widely disseminated. For example, Redditor u/EmmaStore got this basically exactly right in the Reddit thread in question. Her description fits the facts, and it matches the description given to me by Kabam.

    So to set the stage, here's the wrong version of ability accuracy that I believed, and I think many players believe some version of. Ability accuracy is the chance for an effect to trigger, Defensive abilities are those that are triggered when you're hit. Offensive abilities are triggered when you attack. Defensive ability accuracy reduction affects defensive abilities, and offensive ability accuracy reduction affects offensive abilities.

    The problem with this description is that it doesn't fit all in-game observations. For example, in the thread I mention above, the discussion revolved around Magik's Limbo, specifically the Limbo she triggers when she gains a bar of power. Is that a defensive ability or an offensive ability? Or neither? Turns out, it depends. If you hit her and drive her to a bar of power, defensive ability accuracy reduction (say, from Falcon's Lock On) can prevent Limbo. So that sounds like this is a defensive ability. However, if she is hitting you and gains a bar of power, Lock On won't prevent Limbo. If it is a defensive ability, why doesn't Lock On work here?

    One theory is that the game treats power gain from being hit as a defensive act, and thus the trigger of Limbo also a defensive act. But that seems to lead to potentially weird complications. If a defensive ability triggers another ability which triggers another ability, are they all defensive abilities? How far does that go?

    As it turns out, according to Kabam Broccoli and Kabam Niv, the game doesn't care what triggered the ability at all. There is no such thing really as an offensive ability and no such thing really as a defensive ability (except colloquially). And thus there's no such thing as offensive ability accuracy or defensive ability accuracy. There's only "ability accuracy" and all abilities have it. Instead, it is the *debuffs only* that are offensive or defensive.

    Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit

    [Note: this presumably works for both buffs and debuffs, but I'm going to refer to debuffs in the rest of the post for simplicity]

    In other words Limbo is an ability with ability accuracy. When Falcon applies Lock On, he is applying an ability accuracy debuff. Because it is a defensive ability accuracy debuff, it "flickers off and on" depending on whether Magik is being struck at that instant or not. "Frame" in the above description refers to the fact that the game divides time into individual segments which generally also correspond to animation frames. The first frame of an attack is the first segment of time when the attack is triggered. The frames where the target is being hit generally correspond to when the target is visually being struck by a component of the attack. Attacks with multiple hits can have multiple frames that trigger defensive abililty accuracy reduction.

    Again, it seems there are players that have either guessed or deduced this behavior, but this isn't obvious from observation. There are multiple ways to explain why ability accuracy works in the way most people have observed. This happens to be the correct one; kudos to anyone who figured this out. I'm posting this mainly because this differed from how I assumed it worked, and this explanation did not seem to be widely held by most players.

    This means that offensive and defensive ability accuracy reduction work, in a sense, by coincidence. Since most abilities Kabam wants to work "defensively" are triggered upon being hit, they will trigger at the exact moment of a hit and thus be affected by defensive ability accuracy reduction. However, anything else that triggers at the same time will also be affected by DAAR, even if it is something we don't normally consider to be a defensive ability. In fact, if you hit something at the exact moment they initiate an attack (this requires special circumstances if it is possible at all, like the target is unstoppable say) any ability that they would normally trigger as an offensive ability would be suppressed by any defensive ability accuracy debuff that was present.

    So we can now put ability accuracy to bed, in terms of how it works. Some players got there on their own, the rest of us now have an official statement on ability accuracy. There's no such thing as offensive ability accuracy or defensive ability accuracy. There's just ability accuracy. Defensive ability accuracy debuffs do not debuff defensive ability accuracy, there's no such thing. Instead, defensive ability accuracy debuffs reduce *all* ability accuracy at the moment the target is hit. Offensive ability accuracy debuffs reduce *all* ability accuracy at the moment the champion initiates an attack.

    This does not, however, end this story. Because offensive and defensive ability accuracy reduction are *timing* based effects, then as I said in a sense they work by coincidence. Things just happen to take place at the right time for the effects to produce the changes we expect and the developers intend. But does everything happen exactly when it is supposed to happen, and can things happen coincidentally when they are not intended to happen in a way that causes issues? Probably yes. When players are observing oddities in the game and they think ability accuracy is not working the way they think it should, there's now a new question to ask: did something happen, or not happen, in the split second it was supposed to happen for ability accuracy modifiers to take effect when they were supposed to?

    And I'm curious to know if anyone has seen something in game that contradicts this explanation. As it comes directly from game designers, the description is probably accurate, but the game itself is a complex thing. There could be bugs, there could be weird unexpected interactions, there could be additional implementation details that cause the game to behave differently than the designers expect it to. If anyone has evidence of a situation that doesn't seem to follow this explanation, please let me know.

    Thanks to Kabam Broccoli and Kabam Niv for taking time to explain this to me, and in turn allowing me to write up the explanation for everyone else. And thanks to u/EmmaStore for being basically right, and setting me on the right path to discovering how this actually works.

    I've been wondering this for a long time. About the difference between them.
  • Crine60Crine60 Member Posts: 1,446 ★★★★
    I am not clear on how this applies to Mephisto's Regen ability. Fighting against him in multiple modes, all without buffs to his ability accuracy, I seem to get inconsistent activation of his ability when using AAR champs.

    When I use Blade against him I understand that the AAR is 40% so he may or may not successfully activate his Regen. One of the situations I am confused about is with Falcon. His lock on says 100% AAR, and as I said I am only referring to quests or arena with no bonus to Mephisto's ability accuracy. As long as lock on is active in this situation I don't get why sometimes hitting him below the Regen threshold with Falcon prevents him from getting Regen and sometimes it fails to prevent it. Just yesterday I was fighting Mephisto with lock on activated and he still got his Regen.

    Another thing that I am unclear on based on your explanation is how champs who apply AAR for durations of time longer than when they are actively hitting the opponent work. For example Falcon has lock on which you activate without hitting the opponent and it stays active for a certain duration or Blade with danger sense that is active for the whole fight versus say a duped Black Widow.

    With Falcon locked on, or with Blade, I would still expect, and have seen, that if they apply a bleed DOT to Mephisto which takes him to his Regen threshold he can fail to activate his Regen. You said the defensive AAR should only take effect when the affected champ is being hit but obviously a DOT can still take the opponent to a point where they might have an ability activate and in practice I have seen them fail to have their abilities activate in these situations, however unless I misunderstand how DOT works it isn't actually my champ hitting them every tick. Further, in the case of a DOT from a locked on Falcon I don't see why sometimes Mephisto gets his Regen and sometimes he doesn't.
  • TrashyPandaTrashyPanda Member Posts: 1,574 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit

    DAAR procs when you hit them, OAAR procs when they hit you. That's how I figured it, but it was implemented differently from my expectations.

    Thanks for the clarification.
  • MrInsanityMrInsanity Member Posts: 1,539 ★★★★
    So are all nodes counted as an ability? And are prefights counted as an ability? Because I might be wrong but I think I recall using Crossbones and he didn't shut down some nodes even though they triggered when I was hitting them, don't remember exactly though
  • Crine60Crine60 Member Posts: 1,446 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Crine60 said:

    I am not clear on how this applies to Mephisto's Regen ability. Fighting against him in multiple modes, all without buffs to his ability accuracy, I seem to get inconsistent activation of his ability when using AAR champs.

    When I use Blade against him I understand that the AAR is 40% so he may or may not successfully activate his Regen. One of the situations I am confused about is with Falcon. His lock on says 100% AAR, and as I said I am only referring to quests or arena with no bonus to Mephisto's ability accuracy. As long as lock on is active in this situation I don't get why sometimes hitting him below the Regen threshold with Falcon prevents him from getting Regen and sometimes it fails to prevent it. Just yesterday I was fighting Mephisto with lock on activated and he still got his Regen.

    Another thing that I am unclear on based on your explanation is how champs who apply AAR for durations of time longer than when they are actively hitting the opponent work. For example Falcon has lock on which you activate without hitting the opponent and it stays active for a certain duration or Blade with danger sense that is active for the whole fight versus say a duped Black Widow.

    With Falcon locked on, or with Blade, I would still expect, and have seen, that if they apply a bleed DOT to Mephisto which takes him to his Regen threshold he can fail to activate his Regen. You said the defensive AAR should only take effect when the affected champ is being hit but obviously a DOT can still take the opponent to a point where they might have an ability activate and in practice I have seen them fail to have their abilities activate in these situations, however unless I misunderstand how DOT works it isn't actually my champ hitting them every tick. Further, in the case of a DOT from a locked on Falcon I don't see why sometimes Mephisto gets his Regen and sometimes he doesn't.

    Falcon's Lock On is described as a passive defensive ability accuracy reduction ("while Lock On is active, Falcon's attacks Passively reduce the opponent's Defensive Ability Accuracy by 100%"). Awakened Mephisto is immune to passive ability accuracy modification when his aura is up. Perhaps that is what was at play in the situations you describe.

    Blade's Danger Sense applies straight Ability Accuracy Reduction. It is not described as being offensive or defensive ability accuracy reduction, so that debuff is just always being applied to the target constantly. It doesn't need a hit or an attack to take effect. Because Lock On is described as defensive ability accuracy reduction, it has that extra dependency: the target must be getting hit for the reduction to take effect.
    Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate your deep dives into this stuff. It would be nice if Kabam themselves would provide this kind of info for those who want it instead of just to select individuals though.

    I will admit I still have never completely grasped the whole active/passive thing. It seems to pop up in different ways but I don't really get how it works and also isn't just an arbitrary thing they toss in to further complicate things.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,175 Guardian
    CoatHang3r said:

    Good to hear it from the devs finally. Wish I could get all the disagrees back from people. 😂

    Also good to know how it’s 1 frame dependent, Which explains a few things and how they’ve change in the past.

    The main difference between your description above and the devs' description is the one given to me defines the offensive ability accuracy trigger window to be the frame that initiates the attack not the one where the attack lands. I'm not sure if that's a wording thing or a real distinction, and I'm not sure if there's an extra technical layer that would make those two things really the same thing disguised in terminology.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,175 Guardian
    @Crine60 Also, I just tested Falcon vs unawakened Mephisto, and with Lock On active I hit him with the bleed from SP1, and when the bleed effect itself crossed 30% he triggered his heal. So at least in this one test, Lock On was not reducing his ability accuracy when he wasn't actually being hit by Falcon. It is just one test, but just for the record.
  • ItsDamienItsDamien Member Posts: 5,626 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    Good to hear it from the devs finally. Wish I could get all the disagrees back from people. 😂

    Also good to know how it’s 1 frame dependent, Which explains a few things and how they’ve change in the past.

    The main difference between your description above and the devs' description is the one given to me defines the offensive ability accuracy trigger window to be the frame that initiates the attack not the one where the attack lands. I'm not sure if that's a wording thing or a real distinction, and I'm not sure if there's an extra technical layer that would make those two things really the same thing disguised in terminology.
    I think the first frame that initiates the attack makes sense when you look at Rhino for example. When fighting against him, you'll see him trigger unstoppable/unblockable the moment he does a long medium attack, as opposed to it triggering when a hit would occur.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,175 Guardian
    MrInsanity said:

    So are all nodes counted as an ability? And are prefights counted as an ability? Because I might be wrong but I think I recall using Crossbones and he didn't shut down some nodes even though they triggered when I was hitting them, don't remember exactly though

    I believe some effects either do not have ability accuracy and thus cannot have ability accuracy reduced, or they are intrinsically immune to ability accuracy modifications. Nodes in particular seem to have many instances of ad hoc design intended to ensure they work in all situations the devs want them to work, even if that differs from what would normally happen if a champion possessed those same abilities.
  • MrInsanityMrInsanity Member Posts: 1,539 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    MrInsanity said:

    So are all nodes counted as an ability? And are prefights counted as an ability? Because I might be wrong but I think I recall using Crossbones and he didn't shut down some nodes even though they triggered when I was hitting them, don't remember exactly though

    I believe some effects either do not have ability accuracy and thus cannot have ability accuracy reduced, or they are intrinsically immune to ability accuracy modifications. Nodes in particular seem to have many instances of ad hoc design intended to ensure they work in all situations the devs want them to work, even if that differs from what would normally happen if a champion possessed those same abilities.
    Alright that makes sense!
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,175 Guardian
    Crine60 said:

    I will admit I still have never completely grasped the whole active/passive thing. It seems to pop up in different ways but I don't really get how it works and also isn't just an arbitrary thing they toss in to further complicate things.

    The first thing to learn is that "active" and "passive" are not opposites. "Active" is synonymous with the word "on." Falcon's Lock On can be active, or it can be inactive. Inactive is the opposite of active. Active means it is there, inactive means it is not.

    Passive has two different meanings in two different contexts. When it comes to effects, Passive is a color. Red, green, blue. What's the opposite of blue? There isn't one, really. If it is not blue, that doesn't mean it must be red. And there are other colors besides red, green, and blue.

    Effects have colors. They can be Buff colored, they can be Debuff colored, or they can be Passive colored. These words are just labels. I could replace them with Blue, Green, and Red. If the effect is colored with the Buff color, that just means it interacts with other effects that affect Buffs. If an effect is colored with the Passive color, that just means other effects that affect Buff colored things don't affect it, because it is not a Buff colored thing.

    The *only* difference between Buff, Debuff, and Passive effects is in how they interact with other things that affect Buffs, Debuffs, and Passives. In all other respects, those effects all behave in the same way.

    For Abilities, the term Passive means something else. Passive abilities are always on. In other words, they are always Active. Non-passive abilities must be activated in some way. For example, Special 1 requires pushing the special button when you have a bar of power. Special 1 is not always active, it has an activation, and then it ends.

    Some people think passive effects work one way, and non-passive effects work in a different way. That's not true. I can take any passive effect in the game and flip a switch to make it a buff (or debuff) and vice versa. Some people think passive effects are effects from passive abilities. Also not true: there are passive abilities that trigger non-passive effects. Medusa's signature ability (Living Strands) is a passive ability. That means it is always on. It periodically triggers fury buff effects. Those effects are not passive effects, they are buff effects.

    The game itself is actually not that complicated when it comes to passives. Rather, the complexity comes when players expect the effects to work a certain way because they believe the term implies something, and it doesn't actually do that thing.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,175 Guardian
    Crine60 said:

    Thanks for the clarification. I appreciate your deep dives into this stuff. It would be nice if Kabam themselves would provide this kind of info for those who want it instead of just to select individuals though.

    I think this is a question of time constraints. The devs in general do not have time to post in the forums, or perhaps more importantly to follow forum threads and respond to questions and requests for clarification. So when it comes to disseminating information, they tend to work through intermediaries that are willing to take on that extra workload.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Member Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    Good to hear it from the devs finally. Wish I could get all the disagrees back from people. 😂

    Also good to know how it’s 1 frame dependent, Which explains a few things and how they’ve change in the past.

    The main difference between your description above and the devs' description is the one given to me defines the offensive ability accuracy trigger window to be the frame that initiates the attack not the one where the attack lands. I'm not sure if that's a wording thing or a real distinction, and I'm not sure if there's an extra technical layer that would make those two things really the same thing disguised in terminology.
    If I am understanding that correctly then I’m not understanding it based on observed interactions. These interactions are when ooar chains from attacks into special (notably and most common is in the abyss) if it’s only the frame that initiates the attack I would think that would not be possible, additionally wouldn’t that prevent say juggernaut from triggering unstoppable when using a special and allow him to trigger it after the hit registered? This contradicts in game observations documented below.

    Previous thread with Juggs gifs.
    CoatHang3r said:

    LJF said:

    It would be great to have a database or system that lists each ability and categorizes it as offensive, defensive, neither, etc.

    That’s not how OAAR/DAAR works though. It can only be defined.
    Kabam Miike said:


    Offensive Abilities occur while attacking the opponent, Defensive abilities occur when being attacked by the opponent. If an ability activates outside of those two spaces, then it is neither, such as Juggernaut's Unstoppable that triggers whenever you activate a special attack.

    OR, it can be either, like Magik's Limbo from her Signature ability. If you cross the threshold of a bar of Power while you're attacking the opponent, it can activate as an offensive ability, but if you cross the threshold of a bar of Power while being attacked, it can activate as a defensive ability.

    You can say which abilities are always affected but there will always be abilities which will sometimes (dependent on the timing) be subject to OAAR/DAAR.

    For instance Juggernaut’s unstoppable from activating special 1 is not subject to OAAR unless you chain it from an attack that is subject to OAAR.

    Here are two gifs where CW has 9 armor ups which reduce his opponents OAAR by 15% each for 135% reduction. Juggernaut when launching his special attack both fails and succeeds in proccing unstoppable, and that’s dependent on whether or not he is striking the opponent when he activates the special. (BTW the new duels are awesome, never would’ve found a CW to easily test this on in the past).


  • AdjeriusAdjerius Member Posts: 68 ★
    DNA3000 said:

    Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit

    [Note: this presumably works for both buffs and debuffs, but I'm going to refer to debuffs in the rest of the post for simplicity]

    All this talk about "ability accuracy debuffs" is confusing, because there are plenty of AAR effects that aren't tied to any kind of debuffs, buffs, or even passives. Awakened Gwenpool is a good example, because hers is tied to her combo meter and has no status effect icons of any kind.
    DNA3000 said:

    This means that offensive and defensive ability accuracy reduction work, in a sense, by coincidence. Since most abilities Kabam wants to work "defensively" are triggered upon being hit, they will trigger at the exact moment of a hit and thus be affected by defensive ability accuracy reduction. However, anything else that triggers at the same time will also be affected by DAAR, even if it is something we don't normally consider to be a defensive ability. In fact, if you hit something at the exact moment they initiate an attack (this requires special circumstances if it is possible at all, like the target is unstoppable say) any ability that they would normally trigger as an offensive ability would be suppressed by any defensive ability accuracy debuff that was present.

    So you're saying that things like brawl and arc overload nodes, which generate unstoppable or regen effects based solely on a timer, can be prevented by defensive ability accuracy reduction (e.g. Falcon's locked on ability) if he just so happens to be attacking at the precise moment those abilities are scheduled to trigger? If so, that's really interesting.

  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,175 Guardian
    CoatHang3r said:

    if it’s only the frame that initiates the attack I would think that would not be possible, additionally wouldn’t that prevent say juggernaut from triggering unstoppable when using a special and allow him to trigger it after the hit registered?

    I don't have a full explanation, but one thing that *may* play a role is the technicality of when an effect is triggered. It may not be when we *see* it triggered. Perhaps when effects like Juggernaut's unstoppable are triggered, they are "under the hood" triggered when the attack is initiated, but their effects are delayed from the triggering event.

    In pseudo-code, maybe Juggernaut's specials say "on special activation, wait X milliseconds and then activate unstoppable." This would make the activation vulnerable to offensive ability accuracy reduction because the trigger occurred on the activation frame, even though the visible effect appeared to show up later than that.

    That's speculation, but I am aware of game engines that processed effects in that matter, so maybe this is something that occurs here. But I don't know if that fully explains your observations.
  • 7h3wh173r488177h3wh173r48817 Member Posts: 20 ★
    There's also ability accuracy during specials which work pretty much as above (she hulk for example in the SoP rogue fight, brawl sometimes fails to trigger if rogue is throwing an sp), although in this case the wording in abilities is clear enough.

    On an unrelated note, I've got a couple interactions that I don't fully understand, which are not related to AAR, both involving the SoP rogue fight.

    First is Thing, his protection does not trigger when blocking on the invade node, which doesn't make sense it provides 300% attack and 100% block penetration.

    Second is Dragon Man, why does he heal up more than his current health? His abilities only say 85% of the damage taken, even with recovery the max he should Regen is 97.75 (assuming its multiplicative which I'm not sure of, even if it was additive it would be 100%) so he shouldn't heal more than his current health. What's even more interesting is this only happens occasionally and not every time he takes damage. I've only tested this in the rogue fight but nothing in either champs abilities or the nodes suggest why this occurs.
  • SeraphionSeraphion Member Posts: 1,496 ★★★★
    Now it finaly makes sense why Juggs unstoppable always triggers even when you apply OAAR.

    I always thought there are offensive and defensive abilities that can be reduced by the AAR with the same name AND neutral abilities that will neither be affected by it (except by neutral AAR like from AA Quake Blade which worked vs everything)

    And I explained Magik's Limbo to myself like when you hit her = defensive

    When she hits you = offensive

    And from passive powergain = neither


    This also means OAAR from Warlock for example is basicly trash offensive right? 😅


    How does all this work on glancing tho?

    Is it just that the OAAR of the defender from glancing reduces your DAAR first?
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Member Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    if it’s only the frame that initiates the attack I would think that would not be possible, additionally wouldn’t that prevent say juggernaut from triggering unstoppable when using a special and allow him to trigger it after the hit registered?

    I don't have a full explanation, but one thing that *may* play a role is the technicality of when an effect is triggered. It may not be when we *see* it triggered. Perhaps when effects like Juggernaut's unstoppable are triggered, they are "under the hood" triggered when the attack is initiated, but their effects are delayed from the triggering event.

    In pseudo-code, maybe Juggernaut's specials say "on special activation, wait X milliseconds and then activate unstoppable." This would make the activation vulnerable to offensive ability accuracy reduction because the trigger occurred on the activation frame, even though the visible effect appeared to show up later than that.

    That's speculation, but I am aware of game engines that processed effects in that matter, so maybe this is something that occurs here. But I don't know if that fully explains your observations.
    Maybe I have a barrier or misconception that prevents me from understanding this but if it’s the frame from initiating the attack then once that hit lands the ability accuracy reduction is out of play but that contradicts how chaining a special attack after a hit subject to OAAR carries the AAR into the special attacks first hit also.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Member Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    7h3wh173r48817 said:

    There's also ability accuracy during specials which work pretty much as above (she hulk for example in the SoP rogue fight, brawl sometimes fails to trigger if rogue is throwing an sp), although in this case the wording in abilities is clear enough.

    On an unrelated note, I've got a couple interactions that I don't fully understand, which are not related to AAR, both involving the SoP rogue fight.

    First is Thing, his protection does not trigger when blocking on the invade node, which doesn't make sense it provides 300% attack and 100% block penetration.

    Second is Dragon Man, why does he heal up more than his current health? His abilities only say 85% of the damage taken, even with recovery the max he should Regen is 97.75 (assuming its multiplicative which I'm not sure of, even if it was additive it would be 100%) so he shouldn't heal more than his current health. What's even more interesting is this only happens occasionally and not every time he takes damage. I've only tested this in the rogue fight but nothing in either champs abilities or the nodes suggest why this occurs.

    Thing is certainly a puzzle.

    I’m guessing with Dragon Man is you are talking about the benefits from an interaction first observed as far back as lab of legends. And this is confusing, against AV activating dexterity counts as being struck but prevents the hit from doing damage, this transfers the incinerate to you. How this relates to Dragon Man is that when he dexes an attack with his unstoppable from s3 active he doesn’t take the damage but gets credit for taking damage so he heals relative to the damage he would have taken.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,175 Guardian
    Adjerius said:

    All this talk about "ability accuracy debuffs" is confusing, because there are plenty of AAR effects that aren't tied to any kind of debuffs, buffs, or even passives. Awakened Gwenpool is a good example, because hers is tied to her combo meter and has no status effect icons of any kind.

    Yes, I should have said ability accuracy modification effects. None of this depends on the effects being debuffs.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Member Posts: 9,264 ★★★★★
    Ok so I read the whole post but not the rest of the thread, so apologies if someone else has brought this up.

    But by your explanation, if I’m understanding it right, any ability that triggers when you hit them should not trigger.

    But I’ve tested falcon on a node like Arc overload, where a regen and an armour proc every X seconds. And even if I attack right at the very second that this timer is about to reset and trigger the armour and regen, they still trigger.

    So one explanation could be that I’m not hitting at the exact moment when I should be, but I tried a few timings, trying my attack to first hit just before and during the timer resetting.

    But I’m not sure, I always found my experience being that if the aspect of an ability triggers when you hit them, and does not trigger independently of you hitting them, then DAAR can stop it. I.e. arc overload can trigger while you hit them, but it does not trigger because you hit them. So DAAR doesn’t stop it. Limbo when you hit magik triggers because you hit her, and would not have triggered in that instance if you had not hit her. Limbo when a buff expires, or she hits you, is not a defensive ability, so DAAR does not stop it
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,175 Guardian
    CoatHang3r said:

    DNA3000 said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    if it’s only the frame that initiates the attack I would think that would not be possible, additionally wouldn’t that prevent say juggernaut from triggering unstoppable when using a special and allow him to trigger it after the hit registered?

    I don't have a full explanation, but one thing that *may* play a role is the technicality of when an effect is triggered. It may not be when we *see* it triggered. Perhaps when effects like Juggernaut's unstoppable are triggered, they are "under the hood" triggered when the attack is initiated, but their effects are delayed from the triggering event.

    In pseudo-code, maybe Juggernaut's specials say "on special activation, wait X milliseconds and then activate unstoppable." This would make the activation vulnerable to offensive ability accuracy reduction because the trigger occurred on the activation frame, even though the visible effect appeared to show up later than that.

    That's speculation, but I am aware of game engines that processed effects in that matter, so maybe this is something that occurs here. But I don't know if that fully explains your observations.
    Maybe I have a barrier or misconception that prevents me from understanding this but if it’s the frame from initiating the attack then once that hit lands the ability accuracy reduction is out of play but that contradicts how chaining a special attack after a hit subject to OAAR carries the AAR into the special attacks first hit also.
    I had to find a description of the old Civil Warrior's abilities to figure out what is happening here. The original Civil Warrior's offensive ability accuracy reduction was itself triggered when he was attacked:



    So I believe what is happening is if you were making contact with CW with a normal attack at the same time you were initiating SP1, then the unstoppable trigger associated with SP1 would have its ability accuracy reduced. But if you triggered SP1 while far away from CW, his OAAR would not be affecting you at the moment you triggered SP1 and the Unstoppable would trigger. This would only work for effects that trigger at the start of the attack but not effects that trigger significantly after the attack was triggered, including those that trigger at the moment of striking the target.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Member Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    “ Offensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on the first frame of the start of an attack.
    Defensive Ability Accuracy Debuffs only take effect on a frame where the affected champion is being hit”

    Or maybe this is backwards and why I find it contradictory to observations, tests and experience.

    If DAAR is only when being hit then it wouldn’t prevent evade. (I believe this is what was responsible for BW and gwenpool suddenly losing that ability back in the day) But if this is first frame it explains why DAAR can prevent evade.

    If OAAR is first frame that doesn’t explain why the effect can carry over into a special 3 when the attack lands. But if it is when the attack lands then hitting a special 3 in that frame allows the effect to carry over.
  • YoMovesYoMoves Member Posts: 1,284 ★★★★
    Okay, so there is still something I'm lost for.

    What about abilities that proc neither on hit or when hit?

    Passive ability accuracy, I guess?

    I guess this also ties into Concussion. Is Concussion simply just always active, since it prevents these passive abilities from activating as well?

    What about Colossus? Colossus' abilities state that he is only supposed to have 100% boosted power gain when ALL of his ability accuracies are below 100%. Why, then, when he is in Assassin range, does he always have that boosted power gain when Assassin is supposed to only lower defensive ability accuracy? Is it because that's not a debuff, but a passive hanging over the fight that isn't listed as an effect?
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 20,175 Guardian
    BitterSteel said:

    Ok so I read the whole post but not the rest of the thread, so apologies if someone else has brought this up.

    But by your explanation, if I’m understanding it right, any ability that triggers when you hit them should not trigger.

    But I’ve tested falcon on a node like Arc overload, where a regen and an armour proc every X seconds. And even if I attack right at the very second that this timer is about to reset and trigger the armour and regen, they still trigger.

    So one explanation could be that I’m not hitting at the exact moment when I should be, but I tried a few timings, trying my attack to first hit just before and during the timer resetting.

    But I’m not sure, I always found my experience being that if the aspect of an ability triggers when you hit them, and does not trigger independently of you hitting them, then DAAR can stop it. I.e. arc overload can trigger while you hit them, but it does not trigger because you hit them. So DAAR doesn’t stop it. Limbo when you hit magik triggers because you hit her, and would not have triggered in that instance if you had not hit her. Limbo when a buff expires, or she hits you, is not a defensive ability, so DAAR does not stop it

    Because the designers said "frame" I believe for something like Falcon's Lock On to work the effect being triggered must trigger within the same literal frame you land the hit, which means you must hit the target within about 33 milliseconds of the trigger event. That is very tight timing.

    Someone in the thread mentioned Mephisto and I tested Falcon against Mephisto. If I apply Lock On and then strike Mephisto hard enough to bring him below 30% his heal doesn't trigger. But if I land SP1's bleed on Mephisto and he drops below 30% through the bleed ticks, his heal does trigger. So at least in this one situation, Mephisto's heal behaves like a defensive ability when you're hitting him and not like a defensive ability when you're not hitting him, which is consistent with the theory that his heal is just an ability and it is Lock On itself that behaves differently when you're hitting Mephisto verses when you are not.

    If it was the abilities or effects that were somehow "typed" as defensive or offensive, we'd expect them to behave similarly under all circumstances when in the presence of an ability accuracy modification. The fact that we don't see that consistency implies that either the abilities are acting differently in different circumstances, or the ability accuracy modifications are acting differently in those different circumstances. It appears to be the latter, at least so far. But as I mentioned in the article, the developers description of game mechanics is not the end of the conversation, it is the beginning of the conversation. It is important that we collectively verify the game behavior is actually consistent with this description, and if they exist to highlight any bugs or oddities that can't be explained by the description.
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