This buff is shameful, the damage is horrible, the debuffs caused are weak. It doesn't have to be among the top of the class, but it has to be a usable champion, if you keep the buff like that, it won't even be usable.
Increase Taunt from 1% to 2%. Webbing suppression debuff from 10% to 15% or 20%. Webbing decelarate debuff from 35% to 50%. The Special 2, which was supposed to be the damage source, is weak, just take a little damage while the opponent is stunned, the limber proficiency will halve the stun, replace it with burst damage with a taunt debuff or passive fury per taunt debuff. And add armor break on heavy attack.
How about give him something that actually counters champions that have released/are releasing in 2022/23. I want to see a buff that prevents you from glancing or reflects damage (like namor) or has an immunity to root, or something.
Not a decelerate that requires 3 sp1s when spidergwen has that ability on her heavy.
I do agree that the excuse for it being for new or early players needs to drop. Early players bypass 1 and 2 stars too quickly for that to even matter and they can already start getting the newer and more complex champs sooner than later. Unless they wanna say that drop rates are different (which I don’t think the drop rates are different ), I personally don’t see the need to have that be an excuse or priority. However I didn’t really see much they’d be able to do with him unless they did a complete overhaul. I assumed they’d just make him an annoying evade monster if anything.
It's definitely an easy 'mash the buttons, hit the opponent with Specials' buff. There's no means to reward the player for Dexterity or skilled gameplay, sadly 😔
All the more puzzling that they've gone with Taunt, which isn't really an ability beginners are going to get that much out of.
Why remove the reliable Armour Break, which was one of the only good things about him?
Also: I don't know what Debilitate is there for, given that his personal Decelerate/Suppression debuffs don't actually have defined durations; and Taunt is extended by his Sig. So yeah, something like Petrify would be far better.
It isn't completely terrible if the numbers were adjusted, as they can't possibly be intended:
Taunt reduces the opponents Attack by 1%?
Sig-related Taunt duration and Potency increases by less than 0.1%?
Suppression of 10%? Even stacked three times, that's not particularly effective
The positives: If he's Awakened, Sig 1, then with five stacks of webbing the opponent can't Evade or go Unstoppable, unless they're immune to AAR. That's a little useful.
Being able to Taunt a lot can help you control the match. But it would be far more useful (to a skilled player) to Taunt by dodging/Evading, rather than by attacking.
There is a tiny window (3s) during the post-SP2 Stun where your damage might go up a bit. However it'll be useless against any opponent who is immune to stun, or won't let you throw specials, etc. Damage-wise it seems very unlikely to be as good as his old Armour break.
Yeah I know as a new player I could have really used a champ that inflicted a weak version of slow, and some other stuff that I was too new to even know when to apply... lol
The excuse for how this buff currently sits is as poor as the buff itself.
Thankfully this is still the BETA period, and hopefully they take all of this feedback and make some positive changes to give some good damage. As a new player I only wanted a champ that could do great damage, that's the main focus.
Not every champ is supposed to get the same value buff as Magneto, Colossus, etc. Og champs are getting reworked for the current lifespan of the game. It’s been 8 years and Spidy is now better than he was prior. Anyone who disagrees just wants to see giant yellow or red damage numbers. If that’s what you want, you’ll definitely love the og Hulk rework but still, I’d gladly take this beta version over the og spidy if i’m new and working through acts 1-3.
I am much rather disappointed with the spider man buff, for I have felt sorrow for him with how he was before. I have seen his amazing strength before in the distant past. But maybe in due time they will fix it for it is still in beta.
A major point that people seem to be missing out on when it comes to Buff philosophy:
New players aren't using 1, 2, or 3 stars after even a month of gameplay. By the time new players start getting their legs and actually invest time into the game, they'll have access to the Nimrods and Hercs and Galans of the game. Making a champ buff overly irrelevant on the excuse that "new players need time to adjust" isn't a fair point. The game has just evolved too far ahead of that.
Spidey doesn't deserve to be the "kid's meal" of champ design, but he certainly doesn't need a Magneto or Kingpin-level overhaul. If he's about as relevant as the new Hulkbuster or Gamora or even Ant-Man, then that's just fine.
I don't know if the release of Spider-Man's buff on the Beta servers was intended but clearly isn't complete (missing synergy texts, confusing Sig Ability etc). It looks like a very early preview.
The one thing that leapt out to me too was the number of Debuffs he places, and with the low damage output means he's largely a no go for versus content (Battlegrounds etc) unless the meta is favourable.
The emphasis of webs and taunt is great, and in keeping with the character. For me the kit feels like it's in the right direction, but only halfway there.
If he comes out like this he will most likely secure his spot as the worst Spidey in the game.
I still think this title belong to symbiote spidey
At least Symbiote Spidey has good damage potential
My r1 6* Symbiote Spidey took down RoL WS in just 164 hits... without synergies
Sure, most of that is down to heavy spam, but his damage is at least reliable and consistent – and not "you have this short period after sp2, IF you Stun the opponent with it"
An increase to his decelerate potency to 50% should be good. In general, his debuff utility lacks heavily. 3 sp1's for essentially slow and +70% debuff duration is not practical. So a change from 3 stacks to 2 stacks of debuffs and an increase to their potency for the decrease in stacks would be a nice number change. Maybe even keep it as default and not sig locked. The sig ability can do something else. Keep the evade on it. Maybe give a %chance to refresh taunt off criticals scaling with sig ability (up to maybe 35% cause he crits a decent amount)
As for a change in damage numbers. The non stacking armor break on criticals like he has now should be kept (doesn't hurt to keep it there + a little utility there). Instead of having a 5 seconds Burst window on sp2 stun, he could possibly decrease opponent physical resistance (like in the beta) but as debuffs (or even better, passives) per taunt on the opponent for x seconds (maybe 15 tops). His sp3 should probably do something other than just the 5 stacks of webbing. Maybe stun, or if y'all want spidey to be kinda spicy, instead inflict a root in the corner that while active, keeps webbing paused.
Spidey like this with the despair mastery should be pretty good. AI manipulation, good/decent damage, some utility, root (sp3), stun (sp2), decent evade chance, potential heal reversal. To keep it simple for beginners, keep 1 star spidey as he is rn ( just like Colossus).
This spiderman classic buff has a decent amount of potential. It is already pretty decent BASE design. Add some decent numbers, tweak some things, add a little "PHAM!" and "POW!" and maybe a little bit of love . . .he can finally be the Amazing spider-man.
Reliance on Taunt as a significant champ feature (if it even is that with this update) doesn’t excite me.
I’ve found Taunt to be conspicuously unreliable and still wonder whether some champs have a lower “Tauntable” base rate when defending—and yes, they usually are precisely the ones you’d like for Taunt to affect.
Two of my 9 features were OG Spidey yesterday, putting mine at L60 I think. It isn’t devastating if Spidey’s update is disappointing, but it continues to bother me that many OG champs have very little use in game.
He needs a significant damage boost. Based on what we have seen he seems like a much worse Anti-Venom. I don’t see any reason an endgame player would use him
TBH I don't see any reason for even a new player to use him for anything significant He'll be out of their decks within first 1-2 weeks, specially considering that new players get only 3 champion slots
Also he desperately needs his awakening ability to be of any use.....newer players find it hard to awaken champs
And newer players don't have to deal with unstoppable for a long time, which might reduce the usefulness of his deccelerate debuffs
They also don't have to worry about defender Sp3s for a long time, which reduces the usefulness of Taunt In fact Taunt in hands of newer players might be counter productive since they should be learning how to bait specials instead of relying on taunt like mechanics
Also newer players probably aren't great at keeping defenders in the corner, which is a prerequisite of Spidey's kit
iMO unless they plan to give him some really substantial updates, they should just leave him as he currently is bcoz either ways his position & reputation in the game won't change even after this buff He'll just go from a Good 2015 champion to a Mediocre 2016 champion
To keep it simple for beginners, just up his damage per debuff/taunt on the debuff for his sp2 or just in general. He is just bad right now. They've done so well with the hulk rework so far but spiderman is almost as bare bones as he came in
This. Having easy access to as powder puff is not going to encourage any new player. The disappointment might drive them away.
Taunt is less than valuable unless it drops attack a ton or is so potent that specials will be thrown at the earliest possible opportunity. How is a new player supposed to differentiate between a poorly taunted special, a perhaps baited one, and random ai shens? In the Spider-Man scenario, I'd prefer that their taunted attack drop to almost nothing so if my unreliable evade fails, I don't die, what with him being a soap bubble and all.
Taunt is less than valuable unless it drops attack a ton or is so potent that specials will be thrown at the earliest possible opportunity. How is a new player supposed to differentiate between a poorly taunted special, a perhaps baited one, and random ai shens? In the Spider-Man scenario, I'd prefer that their taunted attack drop to almost nothing so if my unreliable evade fails, I don't die, what with him being a soap bubble and all.
Apart from Shulk with a ton of furies (and even then it’s still questionable), Taunt as a mechanic feels like it delivers way less than it seems it should.
Now, if OG Webhead had a super-duper amazing Taunt, maybe we gain some utility. But if it’s like the rest I’m not sure it’s anything other than a little spit and polish on the old guy.
Apart from the lack of a form of damage ramp-up, one thing that really concerns me is that he needs to be awakened in order to actually stack his web debuffs. For a kit that seems like it’s based around this mechanic, you’d think that this would be included in his base kit. Otherwise, he loses most of what utility he has, as he goes from a 105% decelerate to 35%, and a 30% suppression to 10%, which is far from what I would call useful in any sense.
Taunt is less than valuable unless it drops attack a ton or is so potent that specials will be thrown at the earliest possible opportunity. How is a new player supposed to differentiate between a poorly taunted special, a perhaps baited one, and random ai shens? In the Spider-Man scenario, I'd prefer that their taunted attack drop to almost nothing so if my unreliable evade fails, I don't die, what with him being a soap bubble and all.
Apart from Shulk with a ton of furies (and even then it’s still questionable), Taunt as a mechanic feels like it delivers way less than it seems it should.
Now, if OG Webhead had a super-duper amazing Taunt, maybe we gain some utility. But if it’s like the rest I’m not sure it’s anything other than a little spit and polish on the old guy.
Apart from the lack of a form of damage ramp-up, one thing that really concerns me is that he needs to be awakened in order to actually stack his web debuffs. For a kit that seems like it’s based around this mechanic, you’d think that this would be included in his base kit. Otherwise, he loses most of what utility he has, as he goes from a 105% decelerate to 35%, and a 30% suppression to 10%, which is far from what I would call useful in any sense.
Agreed. He's totally dependent on being Awakened to access any reliable utility worth having.
My thoughts about Taunts would be: 1 - If we want playing Spidey to feel like playing Spidey, he should gain or refresh Taunts by Evading or dodging attacks, rather than by hitting people. 2 - If we want the Taunts to achieve anything, they either need to be stronger, or stack better
Why not switch the Taunt to being activated by Dodge/Evade, and have them expire one at a time? That way a skilled player could stack them to whatever number game balance allows?
Personally, I’d like to see him gain some secondary effects based around stacking his taunts, both damage and utility based. On the damage side, he could gain additional attack, crit rating, or crit damage rating (or any combination of the 3) per taunt on the opponent.
As for utility, I feel like this would allow him to have access to petrify of spectre to help account for any healing since, as others have pointed out, he’ll be fuelling willpower in AW & BG. I feel this could be implemented in 1 of 2 ways:
1) Keep the suppression as web debuffs, then make each taunt decrease regen rate (and possibly ability power rate) by X amount.
2) Swap the suppression web debuffs for petrify or spectre debuffs, then have each taunt decrease combat power rate by X amount.
I feel like these changes could easily make him a useful and usable champ, no need for the values to be tuned to make him OP, just fun and viable for content.
Well yeah, and my thoughts on the Spider-Man (Classic) Rework, it looks okay, but what we could have seen to give Spider-Man (Classic) an awesome Rework was where he can gain bonuses when fighting #Sinister Six, #Symbiote, or #Villain Champions.
Comments
It doesn't have to be among the top of the class, but it has to be a usable champion, if you keep the buff like that, it won't even be usable.
Increase Taunt from 1% to 2%.
Webbing suppression debuff from 10% to 15% or 20%.
Webbing decelarate debuff from 35% to 50%.
The Special 2, which was supposed to be the damage source, is weak, just take a little damage while the opponent is stunned, the limber proficiency will halve the stun, replace it with burst damage with a taunt debuff or passive fury per taunt debuff.
And add armor break on heavy attack.
Not a decelerate that requires 3 sp1s when spidergwen has that ability on her heavy.
All the more puzzling that they've gone with Taunt, which isn't really an ability beginners are going to get that much out of.
Why remove the reliable Armour Break, which was one of the only good things about him?
Also: I don't know what Debilitate is there for, given that his personal Decelerate/Suppression debuffs don't actually have defined durations; and Taunt is extended by his Sig. So yeah, something like Petrify would be far better.
It isn't completely terrible if the numbers were adjusted, as they can't possibly be intended:
- Taunt reduces the opponents Attack by 1%?
- Sig-related Taunt duration and Potency increases by less than 0.1%?
- Suppression of 10%? Even stacked three times, that's not particularly effective
The positives:If he's Awakened, Sig 1, then with five stacks of webbing the opponent can't Evade or go Unstoppable, unless they're immune to AAR. That's a little useful.
Being able to Taunt a lot can help you control the match. But it would be far more useful (to a skilled player) to Taunt by dodging/Evading, rather than by attacking.
There is a tiny window (3s) during the post-SP2 Stun where your damage might go up a bit. However it'll be useless against any opponent who is immune to stun, or won't let you throw specials, etc. Damage-wise it seems very unlikely to be as good as his old Armour break.
The excuse for how this buff currently sits is as poor as the buff itself.
Thankfully this is still the BETA period, and hopefully they take all of this feedback and make some positive changes to give some good damage. As a new player I only wanted a champ that could do great damage, that's the main focus.
So says, The Watcher
New players aren't using 1, 2, or 3 stars after even a month of gameplay. By the time new players start getting their legs and actually invest time into the game, they'll have access to the Nimrods and Hercs and Galans of the game. Making a champ buff overly irrelevant on the excuse that "new players need time to adjust" isn't a fair point. The game has just evolved too far ahead of that.
Spidey doesn't deserve to be the "kid's meal" of champ design, but he certainly doesn't need a Magneto or Kingpin-level overhaul. If he's about as relevant as the new Hulkbuster or Gamora or even Ant-Man, then that's just fine.
The one thing that leapt out to me too was the number of Debuffs he places, and with the low damage output means he's largely a no go for versus content (Battlegrounds etc) unless the meta is favourable.
The emphasis of webs and taunt is great, and in keeping with the character. For me the kit feels like it's in the right direction, but only halfway there.
Please remember that this is still in Beta. This means that Spider-Man will likely experience changes and there could still be bugs.
We've already identified one that we're working to fix that should change some of his numbers (don't know exactly which ones yet).
Sure, most of that is down to heavy spam, but his damage is at least reliable and consistent – and not "you have this short period after sp2, IF you Stun the opponent with it"
The sig ability can do something else. Keep the evade on it. Maybe give a %chance to refresh taunt off criticals scaling with sig ability (up to maybe 35% cause he crits a decent amount)
As for a change in damage numbers.
The non stacking armor break on criticals like he has now should be kept (doesn't hurt to keep it there + a little utility there). Instead of having a 5 seconds Burst window on sp2 stun, he could possibly decrease opponent physical resistance (like in the beta) but as debuffs (or even better, passives) per taunt on the opponent for x seconds (maybe 15 tops). His sp3 should probably do something other than just the 5 stacks of webbing. Maybe stun, or if y'all want spidey to be kinda spicy, instead inflict a root in the corner that while active, keeps webbing paused.
Spidey like this with the despair mastery should be pretty good. AI manipulation, good/decent damage, some utility, root (sp3), stun (sp2), decent evade chance, potential heal reversal.
To keep it simple for beginners, keep 1 star spidey as he is rn ( just like Colossus).
This spiderman classic buff has a decent amount of potential. It is already pretty decent BASE design. Add some decent numbers, tweak some things, add a little "PHAM!" and "POW!" and maybe a little bit of love . . .he can finally be the Amazing spider-man.
I’ve found Taunt to be conspicuously unreliable and still wonder whether some champs have a lower “Tauntable” base rate when defending—and yes, they usually are precisely the ones you’d like for Taunt to affect.
Two of my 9 features were OG Spidey yesterday, putting mine at L60 I think. It isn’t devastating if Spidey’s update is disappointing, but it continues to bother me that many OG champs have very little use in game.
Dr. Zola
Get the number right at least.
He'll be out of their decks within first 1-2 weeks, specially considering that new players get only 3 champion slots
Also he desperately needs his awakening ability to be of any use.....newer players find it hard to awaken champs
And newer players don't have to deal with unstoppable for a long time, which might reduce the usefulness of his deccelerate debuffs
They also don't have to worry about defender Sp3s for a long time, which reduces the usefulness of Taunt
In fact Taunt in hands of newer players might be counter productive since they should be learning how to bait specials instead of relying on taunt like mechanics
Also newer players probably aren't great at keeping defenders in the corner, which is a prerequisite of Spidey's kit
iMO unless they plan to give him some really substantial updates, they should just leave him as he currently is bcoz either ways his position & reputation in the game won't change even after this buff
He'll just go from a Good 2015 champion to a Mediocre 2016 champion
In the Spider-Man scenario, I'd prefer that their taunted attack drop to almost nothing so if my unreliable evade fails, I don't die, what with him being a soap bubble and all.
Now, if OG Webhead had a super-duper amazing Taunt, maybe we gain some utility. But if it’s like the rest I’m not sure it’s anything other than a little spit and polish on the old guy.
Dr. Zola
My thoughts about Taunts would be:
1 - If we want playing Spidey to feel like playing Spidey, he should gain or refresh Taunts by Evading or dodging attacks, rather than by hitting people.
2 - If we want the Taunts to achieve anything, they either need to be stronger, or stack better
Why not switch the Taunt to being activated by Dodge/Evade, and have them expire one at a time? That way a skilled player could stack them to whatever number game balance allows?
As for utility, I feel like this would allow him to have access to petrify of spectre to help account for any healing since, as others have pointed out, he’ll be fuelling willpower in AW & BG. I feel this could be implemented in 1 of 2 ways:
1) Keep the suppression as web debuffs, then make each taunt decrease regen rate (and possibly ability power rate) by X amount.
2) Swap the suppression web debuffs for petrify or spectre debuffs, then have each taunt decrease combat power rate by X amount.
I feel like these changes could easily make him a useful and usable champ, no need for the values to be tuned to make him OP, just fun and viable for content.