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Unstealable buffs

13

Comments

  • World EaterWorld Eater Posts: 3,567 ★★★★★
    edited May 2019
    CoatHang3r said:

    MikeHock said:


    With all due respect, I don’t think you should post “there’s no such thing as a passive buff” anymore.

    I’ll say it. There is no such thing as a passive buff.

    Why? Because people can be wrong, mistype or use outdated language when conveying something.
    You’re free to say it , but those are kabams words 11 months ago, “Passive Buff”... so obviously it’s a thing.

    Like I said above, as these new buffs and abilities are released we need to know how they interact with heroes like Loki and Rogue, and if they’re supposed to trigger mystic dispersion. The video bring up a lot of valid questions, IMHO.

    Also would like to hear people’s thoughts Re: Ice Armor
    Why is iceman regaining Ice Armor if Rogue has stolen it and is holding it as a buff? Seems like it could be a bug.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    MikeHock said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    MikeHock said:


    With all due respect, I don’t think you should post “there’s no such thing as a passive buff” anymore.

    I’ll say it. There is no such thing as a passive buff.

    Why? Because people can be wrong, mistype or use outdated language when conveying something.
    You’re free to say it , but those are kabams words 11 months ago, “Passive Buff”... so obviously it’s a thing.
    Kabam’s words. ~6mos ago.
    Kabam Zibiit said:

    Buffs and Debuffs will have a white border around their icons, while passive effects do not. I hope that can be helpful in planning for the fight!

  • winterthurwinterthur Posts: 7,754 ★★★★★
    Fredhorst23 said:

    Rogue cant steal it and Loki can, probably because when Loki does it the enemy can still proc it too while rogue shuts that down.

    Rogue can't steal Unstoppable because her ability does not allow it.

    Special Attack 1:
    Replicates 5 of the opponent's active Buffs. Opponents cannot activate those Buffs as long as Rogue holds them. Rogue's Replicate effect does not work on opponents of the Tech Class, or Unstoppable Buffs.
    Replicated Buffs stay active as long as Rogue keeps touching the opponent, after which all Replicated Buffs on her will be Nullified.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    MikeHock said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    MikeHock said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    MikeHock said:


    With all due respect, I don’t think you should post “there’s no such thing as a passive buff” anymore.

    I’ll say it. There is no such thing as a passive buff.

    Why? Because people can be wrong, mistype or use outdated language when conveying something.
    You’re free to say it , but those are kabams words 11 months ago, “Passive Buff”... so obviously it’s a thing.
    Kabam’s words. ~6mos ago.
    Kabam Zibiit said:

    Buffs and Debuffs will have a white border around their icons, while passive effects do not. I hope that can be helpful in planning for the fight!

    In the video, Heimdalls true strike has a white border around it. White border = buff. They specifically used the term Passive Buff for True Strike. It would appear it’s still a viable term. It also mentioned True Strike can’t be copied but why wasn’t Loki able to steal it? Many other white border-abilities/buffs were not able to be copied or stolen in that video.

    Can we agree that all these interactions are quite confusing and need some clarification?
    They mistakenly used the term Passive Buff; antiquated and no longer in the Kabam lexicon.

    I don’t understand the correlation you are trying to make, 11 months ago Miike mispoke or was wrong when using Passive Buff as the terminology was in the proccess of being phased out at the time in order to better distinguish effects and buffs; BTW he had been operating under the old terminology far longer than the new terminology. Not sure what that has to do with Loki failing to steal True Strike though; if the video wasn’t burdened by extraneous fluff it would be far easier to reference, Loki likely should steal True Strike as it is a buff and I cannot think of a reason other than bug/error for it not happening; unless possibly, and this is a stretch, there is some nullify resistance in play which allowed the buff to be nullifed but failed to the transfer. It is also possible that a true strike/damage buff cannot be transferred by design and is undocumented.

    They are quite confusing and possibly bugged in some instances, I said as much in my post. So yes we are somewhat in agreement there; however there is a way for individuals to clarify some of the interactions, first hand experience; also now there is even a video, even if that video is largely misleading or innacurate itself.


  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,657 Guardian
    MikeHock said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    MikeHock said:


    With all due respect, I don’t think you should post “there’s no such thing as a passive buff” anymore.

    I’ll say it. There is no such thing as a passive buff.

    Why? Because people can be wrong, mistype or use outdated language when conveying something.
    You’re free to say it , but those are kabams words 11 months ago, “Passive Buff”... so obviously it’s a thing.
    I posted a much more exhaustive list of where that phrase or its implication exist a while ago. But Kabam as also stated that they are trying to make the language more consistent in this area and they simply don't always succeed.

    Here's the real problem in a nutshell. There *is* such a thing literally as a passive buff. It exists in the game, and the developers are constantly exposed to that terminology so of course it will slip out from time to time. But the problem is that a "Passive Buff" is *not* a "Buff." In common English, "Passive Buff" is a kind of Buff, but that's not the case here. Instead, because this is terminology, Passive Buff is not a kind of Buff: something that affects Buffs doesn't automatically affect Passive Buffs.

    If people could accept that something that affects Buffs doesn't affect Passive Buffs, no problem. But my observations over the past year tell me this is unlikely, so a change to terminology is pretty much mandatory.

    When I mentioned this to a linguist acquaintance a few months ago, she reminded me that the term "passive buff" should probably be treated as a compound noun. In other words, it is a singular term, not a kind of buff. The most common compound noun we could think of that has the same property is jelly bean Jelly beans are not jelly, nor are they beans. They are a specific thing that doesn't have the same properties as jelly or beans. If you told someone to go shopping for beans for cooking, and "any bean will do" they almost certainly would know you did not include jelly beans as an option, because jelly beans aren't really beans.

    As this is not a discussion that is likely to be reasonably conducted on an online game forum, for the purposes of players playing the game, there's no such thing as a passive buff and any reference to such by Kabam should be considered either deprecated or an error. This was not my original position, but I've come around to seeing this is the only situation that doesn't create madness.

  • World EaterWorld Eater Posts: 3,567 ★★★★★
    edited May 2019
    CoatHang3r said:

    MikeHock said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    MikeHock said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    MikeHock said:


    With all due respect, I don’t think you should post “there’s no such thing as a passive buff” anymore.

    I’ll say it. There is no such thing as a passive buff.

    Why? Because people can be wrong, mistype or use outdated language when conveying something.
    You’re free to say it , but those are kabams words 11 months ago, “Passive Buff”... so obviously it’s a thing.
    Kabam’s words. ~6mos ago.
    Kabam Zibiit said:

    Buffs and Debuffs will have a white border around their icons, while passive effects do not. I hope that can be helpful in planning for the fight!

    In the video, Heimdalls true strike has a white border around it. White border = buff. They specifically used the term Passive Buff for True Strike. It would appear it’s still a viable term. It also mentioned True Strike can’t be copied but why wasn’t Loki able to steal it? Many other white border-abilities/buffs were not able to be copied or stolen in that video.

    Can we agree that all these interactions are quite confusing and need some clarification?
    They mistakenly used the term Passive Buff; antiquated and no longer in the Kabam lexicon.

    I don’t understand the correlation you are trying to make, 11 months ago Miike mispoke or was wrong when using Passive Buff as the terminology was in the proccess of being phased out at the time in order to better distinguish effects and buffs; BTW he had been operating under the old terminology far longer than the new terminology. Not sure what that has to do with Loki failing to steal True Strike though; if the video wasn’t burdened by extraneous fluff it would be far easier to reference, Loki likely should steal True Strike as it is a buff and I cannot think of a reason other than bug/error for it not happening; unless possibly, and this is a stretch, there is some nullify resistance in play which allowed the buff to be nullifed but failed to the transfer. It is also possible that a true strike/damage buff cannot be transferred by design and is undocumented.

    They are quite confusing and possibly bugged in some instances, I said as much in my post. So yes we are somewhat in agreement there; however there is a way for individuals to clarify some of the interactions, first hand experience; also now there is even a video, even if that video is largely misleading or innacurate itself.


    I don’t see how the video in question is misleading or inaccurate. There are bugs or questions raised like Loki not stealing true strike and iceman regaining ice armor when Rogue has stolen that buff and it’s still active on her.

    Also, I’ve not seen any post that says kabam miike made an error when taking about True Stike and calling it a Passive buff, or any statement about phasing out such terminology. We obviously disagree, but to me, Passive buffs exist. I hope you understand that I’m not trying to be argumentative. I do appreciate all the time and energy you’ve put into your OG post and the rest of our conversation.


  • winterthurwinterthur Posts: 7,754 ★★★★★
    Does Buffet eats passive buff?

    Can Annihilus lose the Cosmic Rod to Buffet?
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    MikeHock said:


    I don’t see how the video in question is misleading or inaccurate.

    They video opens with old footage of Sym Spidey and Punisher and compares it to new footage without evidence supporting Punisher’s Endure being nullified prior to the icon being changed. @2:21 “So Kabam converted the unique buffs into the passive”. This is true in relation to Spider sense but untrue in relation to Punisher’s Endure. Punisher’s endure has always been passive but, prior to an update inbetween his reference material, icons were updated and the pause menu descriptions were added to make that clear to players. Endure didn’t change. Endure is also likely one of the effects that led to the change of icons so passives would be easier to distinguish.

    Things like the comic control rod, Thanos’ favor, dimensional link are inconsequential when stolen and have next to no appreciable value when copied. They are non issues. I concede that Rogue denying Venom his Klyntar buff could be somewhat useful and VtD clearly looks like a bug. Possibilities and impact are unaccounted for which is a disservice to the audience.

    I wouldn’t hold onto the terminology of Passive Buff, it has demonstrated an overwhelming potential to confuse in game mechanics. I also linked a recent Kabam post showing they have distinguished passives and buffs. If you want to speak Korean in India good luck being understood.

    @winterthur buffet will not consume passives, and the rod should be consumed by buffet.
  • CassyCassy Posts: 1,071 ★★★
    i realy hope this discussion do not make Kabam think of making all "unique" buffs passive.
    that would make Ronan, mystic dispersion more and more worthless.
    Or they find a way for Ronan to interact with all Iconworthy effects a Opponent has. (sigh!)
  • World EaterWorld Eater Posts: 3,567 ★★★★★
    CoatHang3r said:

    MikeHock said:


    I don’t see how the video in question is misleading or inaccurate.

    They video opens with old footage of Sym Spidey and Punisher and compares it to new footage without evidence supporting Punisher’s Endure being nullified prior to the icon being changed. @2:21 “So Kabam converted the unique buffs into the passive”. This is true in relation to Spider sense but untrue in relation to Punisher’s Endure. Punisher’s endure has always been passive but, prior to an update inbetween his reference material, icons were updated and the pause menu descriptions were added to make that clear to players. Endure didn’t change. Endure is also likely one of the effects that led to the change of icons so passives would be easier to distinguish.

    Things like the comic control rod, Thanos’ favor, dimensional link are inconsequential when stolen and have next to no appreciable value when copied. They are non issues. I concede that Rogue denying Venom his Klyntar buff could be somewhat useful and VtD clearly looks like a bug. Possibilities and impact are unaccounted for which is a disservice to the audience.

    I wouldn’t hold onto the terminology of Passive Buff, it has demonstrated an overwhelming potential to confuse in game mechanics. I also linked a recent Kabam post showing they have distinguished passives and buffs. If you want to speak Korean in India good luck being understood.

    @winterthur buffet will not consume passives, and the rod should be consumed by buffet.
    I see your point about Punishers endure. The beginning of the vid mostly talked about older content and I concede some info there can be a little misleading. However, when he starts to bring up issues with newer heroes and abilities that can not be stolen or copie and that are not triggering mystic dispersion, those are all valid issues and questions. Are these bugs or are these interactions that need clarification? Or both? Really wish a mod would step in and clear up the confusion.

    I’ll continue to use the phrase passive buff until a mod says they don’t exist. Per Kabam miike True Strike is a passive buff. The update that included the pause menu (a great feature), and clarified buffs and debuffs have a white border, does nothing to negate that True Strike is a Passive Buff.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    edited May 2019
    @MikeHock Miike wasn’t describing True Strike when using Passive Buff, he was addressing Spider Sense.


    And yeah good luck speaking another language in someone elses house, it’s not going to lead to understanding, quite the opposite in fact.
  • bloodyCainbloodyCain Posts: 910 ★★★
    edited May 2019
    At this point, I don't know why people still say it's complicated to understand between active and passive buff (also know as passive effect).
    There's nothing convoluted about it anymore right now. Get a grip already! Read more.
    Don't stay in the past and keep saying "there is no such thing as passive buff etc".
    What are you? 5 year old kid? Grow up
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,657 Guardian
    bloodyCain said:

    At this point, I don't know why people still say it's complicated to understand between active and passive buff (also know as passive effect).
    There's nothing convoluted about it anymore right now. Get a grip already! Read more.
    Don't stay in the past and keep saying "there is no such thing as passive buff etc".
    What are you? 5 year old kid? Grow up

    I don't think it is complicated. But it is obvious there's no resolving that controversy because many people cannot separate the semantics from the mechanics. It doesn't matter why this is the case, it is simply a matter of fact that it is in fact a point of argument that clearly cannot be solved.

    We resolved the debates about Challenger Rating quicker than we have the issues surrounding what "passive effects" are. And that's saying something.
  • winterthurwinterthur Posts: 7,754 ★★★★★
    edited May 2019
    Fredhorst23 said:

    Yeah but for real though, some effects are passive. That's it. Period. They are passive and outside the realm of all the stuff that's...active. effects you cannot affect, in the most common vernacular, are passive. Where is the issue with that specific part?

    Tyger87 said:


    Example 2: KM has a Passive armor to start the fight. Notice the wording here? It does not state buff, but rather it’s a passive ABILITY. I know, I know it’s very dumb, but since it is a passive ability, it has its own unique rules on how it can be interacted with. In this case, you cannot nullify it, but you can break it.

    From this example, what is stated underlined is incorrect. The passive effect, ability has a counter. It is becoming "inconsistent".

  • World EaterWorld Eater Posts: 3,567 ★★★★★
    CoatHang3r said:

    @MikeHock Miike wasn’t describing True Strike when using Passive Buff, he was addressing Spider Sense.


    And yeah good luck speaking another language in someone elses house, it’s not going to lead to understanding, quite the opposite in fact.


    “When we made the change to True Strike to make it more effective against Auto-Block, we also updated the way evasion worked so True Strike would work against it. This change created a problem with anyone that tried to copy the Buff. The solution that we came up with was to make it a Passive Buff so that it could not be copied.”

    He’s clearly talking about True Strike there and Kabam said its a passive buff. Ive seen no official post about "phasing out" such terminology. Your analogy doesn't really ring true. I'm not speaking a foreign language, I’m using kabams language. I didnt come up with the term passive buff.

    Again, the vid highlights many different buffs that aren’t being stolen or copied & also shows some possible bugs.
  • CoatHang3rCoatHang3r Posts: 4,965 ★★★★★
    MikeHock said:

    CoatHang3r said:

    @MikeHock Miike wasn’t describing True Strike when using Passive Buff, he was addressing Spider Sense.


    And yeah good luck speaking another language in someone elses house, it’s not going to lead to understanding, quite the opposite in fact.


    “When we made the change to True Strike to make it more effective against Auto-Block, we also updated the way evasion worked so True Strike would work against it. This change created a problem with anyone that tried to copy the Buff. The solution that we came up with was to make it a Passive Buff so that it could not be copied.”

    He’s clearly talking about True Strike there and Kabam said its a passive buff. Ive seen no official post about "phasing out" such terminology. Your analogy doesn't really ring true. I'm not speaking a foreign language, I’m using kabams language. I didnt come up with the term passive buff.

    Again, the vid highlights many different buffs that aren’t being stolen or copied & also shows some possible bugs.
    Stop, go to the thread you are referencing, Miike is answering the question about why Sym Spidey’s spider sense was made into a passive.
  • Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 11,596 ★★★★★
    Rouge can’t steal them full stop, some are passive so Loki can’t take them
  • Suros_moonSuros_moon Posts: 454 ★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    There are two aspects to this. One is that some Buffs are Passive and some are Active. The other is balancing. Some Buffs aren't intended to be stolen because it would in fact make those two OP.

    Wait so if the opponent has the buff its fine but stealing the buff would make it OP? Im confused by the logic.
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