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Behold, the June Event Quest: Imperius Rex!

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    SiliyoSiliyo Posts: 1,398 ★★★★★

    Werewrym said:

    Difficulty shouldn't change as we grow stronger... That's not how it has worked in the past, and it's definitely not how it should work now. They should release a new difficulty corresponding to our advancement as players.

    Edit: What I mean is that uncollected is a constant difficulty. Constants don't change, which is why the difficulty shouldn't be changing either.

    Difficulty HAS to change as we grow stronger when it's the plateau of what is offered. Otherwise it no longer presents any challenge.
    And he’s saying to introduce a new difficulty to match the current state of the game, which I think you missed.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,317 ★★★★★
    Thanks for the insight Miike.
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    GamerGamer Posts: 10,316 ★★★★★
    Thx @Kabam Miike that was what I’m wont to ikow but stil gold in that is less that master with is not cool but alest you hav a update
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    LibertyPrimeV1LibertyPrimeV1 Posts: 4,179 ★★★★★

    IMPRISONED IN THE DEPTHS OF ATLANTIS

    Rewards

    The rewards for Beginner, Normal, Heroic, and Master Difficulty have been updated!

    For completing and mastering all of the Beginner Quests, you earn:
    1x Premium Hero Crystal
    2,400x Premium Crystal Shards (2.2x Crystals)
    1,700x 3-Star Hero Crystal Shards (85% of a Crystal)
    2x Tier 1 Basic Catalysts
    2x Tier 2 Basic Catalysts
    150x Units
    900x Tier 4 Basic Catalyst Fragments
    15x Tier 3 Generic ISO
    7x Tier 4 Generic ISO
    18x Tier 2 Class ISO (3/each class)
    17,450 Gold
    1x Invisible Force Title
    1x 2-Star Yellowjacket

    For completing and mastering all of the Normal Quests, you earn:
    2x Premium Hero Crystal
    8,500x Premium Crystal Shards (8.5x Crystals)
    1x 3-Star Hero Crystal
    1,000x 3-Star Crystal Shards (50% of a Crystal)
    150x Units
    2x Tier 2 Class Catalyst Crystals
    3x Tier 2 Basic Catalysts
    2x Tier 3 Basic Catalysts
    1x Tier 1 Alpha Catalyst
    12x Tier 3 Generic ISO
    24x Tier 4 Generic ISO
    30x Tier 2 Class ISO (5/each class)
    19,325 Gold
    1x Invisible Force Title
    1x 3-Star Yellowjacket
    10,000x Tier 1 Atlantean Coral

    For completing and mastering all of the Heroic Quests, you earn:
    4x Premium Hero Crystals
    4,450x Premium Crystal Shards (2.225x Crystals)
    1x Ultimate Crystal
    1,400x 4-Star Crystal Shards (70% of a Crystal)
    1,000x 5-Star Crystal Shards (10% of a Crystal)
    150x Units
    1x Tier 4 Basic Catalyst
    7200x Tier 4 Basic Catalyst Fragments
    2x Tier 3 Basic Catalysts
    2x Tier 1 Alpha Catalyst
    2x Tier 3 Class Catalyst Crystals
    25x Tier 4 Class Catalyst Fragment Crystals
    30x Tier 4 Generic ISO
    5x Tier 5 Generic ISO
    30x Tier 3 Class ISO (5/each class)
    28,825 Gold
    1x Invisible Force Title
    10,000x Tier 2 Atlantean Coral

    For completing and mastering all of the Master Quests, you earn:
    3x Premium Hero Crystals
    1x 3-Star Hero Crystal
    3,000x 3-Star Crystal Shards (1.5x Crystals)
    1x 4-Star Hero Crystal
    2,300x 4-Star Crystal Shards (1.15x Crystals)
    2,750x 5-Star Crystal Shards (27.5% of a Crystal)
    150x Units
    3x Tier 1 Alpha Catalyst
    1x Tier 4 Basic Catalyst
    36,000x Tier 4 Basic Catalyst Fragment (1x Catalyst)
    3,600x Tier 2 Alpha Catalyst Fragments (10% of a Catalyst)
    95x Tier 4 Class Catalyst Fragment Crystal
    10x 4-Star Signature Stone Crystals
    5x 5-Star Signature Stone Crystals
    12x Tier 5 Generic ISO
    38,825 Gold
    1x Lord of the Seven Seas Title
    10,000x Tier 3 Atlantean Coral

    For completing and mastering all of the Uncollected Quests, you earn:
    4,020x 4-Star Crystal Shards (2.01x Crystals)
    7,500x 5-Star Crystal Shards (75% of a Crystal)
    2,500x 6-Star Crystal Shards (25% of a Crystal)
    12,000x Tier 2 Alpha Catalyst Fragment (33% of a Catalyst)
    10x 5-Star Signature Stone Crystal
    9,000x Tier 5 Basic Catalyst Shard (20% of a Catalyst)
    1x Tier 4 Class Catalyst Crystal
    12,825x Gold
    10,000x Tier 4 Atlantean Coral

    Hallelujah! They've Finally Been Updated!
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    SighsohardSighsohard Posts: 666 ★★★
    UC gets less gold than every other level...
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,876 Guardian

    OGAvenger said:

    Looks great!!! Is the 12,825 gold correct for the uncollected reward? It’s 26,000 less than the Master difficulty reward which doesn’t make much sense lol

    The Uncollected Quest hasn't been retuned yet. That is a more sensitive rebalance that we're discussing in conjunction with the Difficulty level of the Event.
    You mean the fact that it's significantly more difficult now than when it was released, but the rewards are the same?

    We used to only have 1 path of nodes, remember? Pepperidge Farm does. Now we have only 1 path WITHOUT nodes and one path has 2 act 5 nodes. Insane how the only one who didn't get a rewards update is the one that has had the most significant difficulty increase.
    Luckily, last month the final map of UC had no paths noded, and thus had a significant difficulty decrease.
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    GamerGamer Posts: 10,316 ★★★★★
    I’m haven’t find uc harder more essay but so hav 5 5 star rank5 so I’m op ther
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    Kobster84Kobster84 Posts: 2,898 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    OGAvenger said:

    Looks great!!! Is the 12,825 gold correct for the uncollected reward? It’s 26,000 less than the Master difficulty reward which doesn’t make much sense lol

    The Uncollected Quest hasn't been retuned yet. That is a more sensitive rebalance that we're discussing in conjunction with the Difficulty level of the Event.
    You mean the fact that it's significantly more difficult now than when it was released, but the rewards are the same?

    We used to only have 1 path of nodes, remember? Pepperidge Farm does. Now we have only 1 path WITHOUT nodes and one path has 2 act 5 nodes. Insane how the only one who didn't get a rewards update is the one that has had the most significant difficulty increase.
    Luckily, last month the final map of UC had no paths noded, and thus had a significant difficulty decrease.
    Nah in fairness with lots of newer nodes and harder defenders I would say difficulty has increased but not by an insane amount
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,876 Guardian

    Hey everybody, we can go back and forth on this all day, but I want to give some context and information on this Uncollected Rewards change.

    We did not update Uncollected this time around because it's a more delicate balancing act. Why is that? Because as many of you have mentioned, the Difficulty of Uncollected Fluctuates more than Master or Heroic, etc. What we need to look at is both the difficulty level here, and the rewards.

    Is Uncollected where it should be for difficulty, or is there need for a new designation (Cavalier, for instance). Does this Difficulty level become that new level, or is the next one even more Difficult? Do we need to wait a little while and make a new difficulty for after you complete Act 6? Where should Uncollected be in the Difficulty scale compared to what's coming next?

    There are a lot of questions that we need to answer. We're not holding on to a rewards Change until we answer ALL of these, but we need to have some of this figured out before we can look at what we want to do for a difficulty change.

    I hope that answers some questions on that. Let's keep this thread about the actual event itself.

    What makes the most sense to me would be to keep UC rewards the same but knock it back to what it was when it was released (one path of nodes, not one path without them). That way players just getting UC can actually have a shot at doing the maps. Then add Cav difficulty that is a bit harder then what UC is now, with better rewards.
    If Cav difficulty is added it is extremely unlikely, and in my opinion undesirable, for it to be just "a bit harder" than UC. If we add Cav, then following the same design perspective that was followed with UC, UC would no longer "float" as top tier difficulty but would be knocked down to be approximately linearly above Master (my guess: one or two noded paths) while Cav would be substantially higher, and also variable and floating top tier difficulty. It would probably be some paths no nodes, some paths Act 5 nodes, and some paths Act 6 nodes.
  • Options
    SiliyoSiliyo Posts: 1,398 ★★★★★

    Hey everybody, we can go back and forth on this all day, but I want to give some context and information on this Uncollected Rewards change.

    We did not update Uncollected this time around because it's a more delicate balancing act. Why is that? Because as many of you have mentioned, the Difficulty of Uncollected Fluctuates more than Master or Heroic, etc. What we need to look at is both the difficulty level here, and the rewards.

    Is Uncollected where it should be for difficulty, or is there need for a new designation (Cavalier, for instance). Does this Difficulty level become that new level, or is the next one even more Difficult? Do we need to wait a little while and make a new difficulty for after you complete Act 6? Where should Uncollected be in the Difficulty scale compared to what's coming next?

    There are a lot of questions that we need to answer. We're not holding on to a rewards Change until we answer ALL of these, but we need to have some of this figured out before we can look at what we want to do for a difficulty change.

    I hope that answers some questions on that. Let's keep this thread about the actual event itself.

    Here are some answers to your questions, which I hope you consider and bring back to the team:

    1. Uncollected difficulty is overtuned. Since its introduction, the Uncollected difficulty has gotten more difficult over time. I think the difficult should cut back just a bit. Therefore, it’s technically not where it should be and a new difficulty should emerge with a new title (i.e. Cavalier). I think the same questions you asked yourselves regarding introducing the Uncollected difficulty should be considered again for the Cavalier difficulty.
    2. From what I saw, with the introduction of Act 5.4, you also introduced the Uncollected difficulty. I think you should do the same for the Cavalier difficulty. When Act 6.4 drops, this would be a grand opportunity to introduce the Cavalier difficulty as well.
    3. In regards to scaling, I would say Uncollected is approximately 2-3 times harder than Master. If you’re going to introduce Cavalier difficulty, it should be about 1.5-1.75 times harder than Uncollected.

    P.S. please buff Uncollected rewards 🙂
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    Hulk_77Hulk_77 Posts: 782 ★★★
    While we're troubleshooting the rewards, I think when UC gets updated, the 4* shards should go away. Since you can't use 4*s in Act 6, they're pretty irrelevant to people who are Cavalier, and they're only ever so slightly relevant to the Uncollected. Drop them and up 5 and 6* shards IMO.
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    LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 8,643 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Hey everybody, we can go back and forth on this all day, but I want to give some context and information on this Uncollected Rewards change.

    We did not update Uncollected this time around because it's a more delicate balancing act. Why is that? Because as many of you have mentioned, the Difficulty of Uncollected Fluctuates more than Master or Heroic, etc. What we need to look at is both the difficulty level here, and the rewards.

    Is Uncollected where it should be for difficulty, or is there need for a new designation (Cavalier, for instance). Does this Difficulty level become that new level, or is the next one even more Difficult? Do we need to wait a little while and make a new difficulty for after you complete Act 6? Where should Uncollected be in the Difficulty scale compared to what's coming next?

    There are a lot of questions that we need to answer. We're not holding on to a rewards Change until we answer ALL of these, but we need to have some of this figured out before we can look at what we want to do for a difficulty change.

    I hope that answers some questions on that. Let's keep this thread about the actual event itself.

    What makes the most sense to me would be to keep UC rewards the same but knock it back to what it was when it was released (one path of nodes, not one path without them). That way players just getting UC can actually have a shot at doing the maps. Then add Cav difficulty that is a bit harder then what UC is now, with better rewards.
    If Cav difficulty is added it is extremely unlikely, and in my opinion undesirable, for it to be just "a bit harder" than UC. If we add Cav, then following the same design perspective that was followed with UC, UC would no longer "float" as top tier difficulty but would be knocked down to be approximately linearly above Master (my guess: one or two noded paths) while Cav would be substantially higher, and also variable and floating top tier difficulty. It would probably be some paths no nodes, some paths Act 5 nodes, and some paths Act 6 nodes.
    That makes sense. I hope they don't lock it with 100% exploration of the lower difficulty like they did with UC for so long.
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,876 Guardian
    Werewrym said:

    Werewrym said:

    Difficulty shouldn't change as we grow stronger... That's not how it has worked in the past, and it's definitely not how it should work now. They should release a new difficulty corresponding to our advancement as players.

    Edit: What I mean is that uncollected is a constant difficulty. Constants don't change, which is why the difficulty shouldn't be changing either.

    Difficulty HAS to change as we grow stronger when it's the plateau of what is offered. Otherwise it no longer presents any challenge.
    I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. Take master difficulty for example. That difficulty level is constant. If the PI of champs in master ranges from 8000-12000, that range shouldn't grow over time because summoners are getting stronger champs at higher ranks. Instead summoners should be using those stronger champs to take on uncollected which offers a higher difficulty cap. However, the difficulty cap of uncollected should not be changing either. My point is that a difficulty level like Uncollected is a constant difficulty, as we get stronger Uncollected should become easier. The difficulty should not grow to match the growth of our champions. This is why I think we need a Cavalier difficulty.
    The problem is we can't keep adding difficulties indefinitely the moment a measurable amount of players exceeds them. The devs stated when UC was introduced that every difficulty below the top was intended to be relatively constant difficulty and roughly on a similar difficulty curve connecting them all, while the top tier difficulty was intended to be more variable, adjusting to the needs of the top tier players. That used to be Master difficulty where they mostly fiddled with boss difficulty, and it is now UC difficulty where Master was demoted and UC added above it. If Cav is added above UC, then UC no longer needs to serve that purpose and can rejoin the other difficulties on the same difficulty curve, and Cav will be the new top tier "floating" difficulty. But there has to be such a difficulty, or rather it is a reasonable design compromise the devs have decided to employ. There's no "should" or "should not" when it comes to that choice. It is a choice, and one I think is a reasonable one.

    Keep in mind that the lower difficulties are "progressional" difficulties: you are supposed to master beginner and move on to normal, and so on. But in a sense, the top rung on the ladder is the end of progression, not a part of it. There is currently no difficulty tier above UC, and therefore no design imperative to gracefully ease players to and above it. There's no above it. That will always be true about the top tier difficulty for the monthly quests. The bottom tier and top tier of difficulty for progressional content are special cases, because there's no way to enter the bottom, and there's no way to exit the top.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,317 ★★★★★
    edited June 2019
    AndiYTDE said:

    Werewrym said:

    Difficulty shouldn't change as we grow stronger... That's not how it has worked in the past, and it's definitely not how it should work now. They should release a new difficulty corresponding to our advancement as players.

    Edit: What I mean is that uncollected is a constant difficulty. Constants don't change, which is why the difficulty shouldn't be changing either.

    Difficulty HAS to change as we grow stronger when it's the plateau of what is offered. Otherwise it no longer presents any challenge.
    Depends. The difficulty of the fights within the different EQ difficulties should not change, as otherwise some players cannot keep up. However there have to be new levels of EQ difficulties, like a potential Cavalier difficulty
    They pretty much have to change to keep up with the Meta. As Champs are added, with new Abilities, Nodes are added, and people grow, it changes. Not by a large measure, for sure. Actually, if you'll take a look, I've been one of the loudest voices concerning consistency in Difficulties. However, a gradual difference over time is to be expected as the game grows.
    I'm also on the side of adding a new Difficulty, but as Miiike pointed out, it's something that requires a great measure of forethought and discussion, and needs to be in a time and way that's appropriate. My point about it being a plateau was to indicate that it's been the ceiling for some time now, so now would be the time to consider adding a new one in the future because any alterations that are too extreme would have an adverse effect. I was making the point that it's had to change over time because it was the highest you can go, and that's encompassed a range of people. It's in the interest of the same consistency that I suggested adding a new one, albeit not rashly or overnight, just in terms of looking at the Reward/challenge ratio. It's reasonable that it will change over time. Not in any way that's extreme, and I've always been the one to speak up for that at times when I felt it wasn't scaled.
  • Options
    WerewrymWerewrym Posts: 2,830 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Werewrym said:

    Werewrym said:

    Difficulty shouldn't change as we grow stronger... That's not how it has worked in the past, and it's definitely not how it should work now. They should release a new difficulty corresponding to our advancement as players.

    Edit: What I mean is that uncollected is a constant difficulty. Constants don't change, which is why the difficulty shouldn't be changing either.

    Difficulty HAS to change as we grow stronger when it's the plateau of what is offered. Otherwise it no longer presents any challenge.
    I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. Take master difficulty for example. That difficulty level is constant. If the PI of champs in master ranges from 8000-12000, that range shouldn't grow over time because summoners are getting stronger champs at higher ranks. Instead summoners should be using those stronger champs to take on uncollected which offers a higher difficulty cap. However, the difficulty cap of uncollected should not be changing either. My point is that a difficulty level like Uncollected is a constant difficulty, as we get stronger Uncollected should become easier. The difficulty should not grow to match the growth of our champions. This is why I think we need a Cavalier difficulty.
    The problem is we can't keep adding difficulties indefinitely the moment a measurable amount of players exceeds them. The devs stated when UC was introduced that every difficulty below the top was intended to be relatively constant difficulty and roughly on a similar difficulty curve connecting them all, while the top tier difficulty was intended to be more variable, adjusting to the needs of the top tier players. That used to be Master difficulty where they mostly fiddled with boss difficulty, and it is now UC difficulty where Master was demoted and UC added above it. If Cav is added above UC, then UC no longer needs to serve that purpose and can rejoin the other difficulties on the same difficulty curve, and Cav will be the new top tier "floating" difficulty. But there has to be such a difficulty, or rather it is a reasonable design compromise the devs have decided to employ. There's no "should" or "should not" when it comes to that choice. It is a choice, and one I think is a reasonable one.

    Keep in mind that the lower difficulties are "progressional" difficulties: you are supposed to master beginner and move on to normal, and so on. But in a sense, the top rung on the ladder is the end of progression, not a part of it. There is currently no difficulty tier above UC, and therefore no design imperative to gracefully ease players to and above it. There's no above it. That will always be true about the top tier difficulty for the monthly quests. The bottom tier and top tier of difficulty for progressional content are special cases, because there's no way to enter the bottom, and there's no way to exit the top.
    I would agree with that for the most part. My comment was more in reply to the one that suggested that because we’ve been able to get r5 5* that it’s ok to bump the difficulty of UC. That, in my opinion, is not a valid reason for adjusting difficulty. The slight variance we see month to month wasn’t what I was referring to. I haven’t ever had issues 100% UC since it was released.
  • Options
    RagamugginGunnerRagamugginGunner Posts: 2,210 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Hey everybody, we can go back and forth on this all day, but I want to give some context and information on this Uncollected Rewards change.

    We did not update Uncollected this time around because it's a more delicate balancing act. Why is that? Because as many of you have mentioned, the Difficulty of Uncollected Fluctuates more than Master or Heroic, etc. What we need to look at is both the difficulty level here, and the rewards.

    Is Uncollected where it should be for difficulty, or is there need for a new designation (Cavalier, for instance). Does this Difficulty level become that new level, or is the next one even more Difficult? Do we need to wait a little while and make a new difficulty for after you complete Act 6? Where should Uncollected be in the Difficulty scale compared to what's coming next?

    There are a lot of questions that we need to answer. We're not holding on to a rewards Change until we answer ALL of these, but we need to have some of this figured out before we can look at what we want to do for a difficulty change.

    I hope that answers some questions on that. Let's keep this thread about the actual event itself.

    What makes the most sense to me would be to keep UC rewards the same but knock it back to what it was when it was released (one path of nodes, not one path without them). That way players just getting UC can actually have a shot at doing the maps. Then add Cav difficulty that is a bit harder then what UC is now, with better rewards.
    If Cav difficulty is added it is extremely unlikely, and in my opinion undesirable, for it to be just "a bit harder" than UC. If we add Cav, then following the same design perspective that was followed with UC, UC would no longer "float" as top tier difficulty but would be knocked down to be approximately linearly above Master (my guess: one or two noded paths) while Cav would be substantially higher, and also variable and floating top tier difficulty. It would probably be some paths no nodes, some paths Act 5 nodes, and some paths Act 6 nodes.
    That was my point. Put UC back to where it was because UC isn't the top end of progression anymore. Make Cav the hardest level for the best players.
  • Options
    Mr_PlatypusMr_Platypus Posts: 2,779 ★★★★★

    Hey everybody, we can go back and forth on this all day, but I want to give some context and information on this Uncollected Rewards change.

    We did not update Uncollected this time around because it's a more delicate balancing act. Why is that? Because as many of you have mentioned, the Difficulty of Uncollected Fluctuates more than Master or Heroic, etc. What we need to look at is both the difficulty level here, and the rewards.

    Is Uncollected where it should be for difficulty, or is there need for a new designation (Cavalier, for instance). Does this Difficulty level become that new level, or is the next one even more Difficult? Do we need to wait a little while and make a new difficulty for after you complete Act 6? Where should Uncollected be in the Difficulty scale compared to what's coming next?

    There are a lot of questions that we need to answer. We're not holding on to a rewards Change until we answer ALL of these, but we need to have some of this figured out before we can look at what we want to do for a difficulty change.

    I hope that answers some questions on that. Let's keep this thread about the actual event itself.

    Nice write up, clears up a lot.
    Maybe a minor change to the things you pick up along the path?
    Just basic things like changing the L2 potions to L3 or above, bigger iso chunks from the chests, that sort of stuff.
    Obviously exploring the quest isn’t really about picking those up but it would be a nice change.
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,876 Guardian
    Werewrym said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Werewrym said:

    Werewrym said:

    Difficulty shouldn't change as we grow stronger... That's not how it has worked in the past, and it's definitely not how it should work now. They should release a new difficulty corresponding to our advancement as players.

    Edit: What I mean is that uncollected is a constant difficulty. Constants don't change, which is why the difficulty shouldn't be changing either.

    Difficulty HAS to change as we grow stronger when it's the plateau of what is offered. Otherwise it no longer presents any challenge.
    I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. Take master difficulty for example. That difficulty level is constant. If the PI of champs in master ranges from 8000-12000, that range shouldn't grow over time because summoners are getting stronger champs at higher ranks. Instead summoners should be using those stronger champs to take on uncollected which offers a higher difficulty cap. However, the difficulty cap of uncollected should not be changing either. My point is that a difficulty level like Uncollected is a constant difficulty, as we get stronger Uncollected should become easier. The difficulty should not grow to match the growth of our champions. This is why I think we need a Cavalier difficulty.
    The problem is we can't keep adding difficulties indefinitely the moment a measurable amount of players exceeds them. The devs stated when UC was introduced that every difficulty below the top was intended to be relatively constant difficulty and roughly on a similar difficulty curve connecting them all, while the top tier difficulty was intended to be more variable, adjusting to the needs of the top tier players. That used to be Master difficulty where they mostly fiddled with boss difficulty, and it is now UC difficulty where Master was demoted and UC added above it. If Cav is added above UC, then UC no longer needs to serve that purpose and can rejoin the other difficulties on the same difficulty curve, and Cav will be the new top tier "floating" difficulty. But there has to be such a difficulty, or rather it is a reasonable design compromise the devs have decided to employ. There's no "should" or "should not" when it comes to that choice. It is a choice, and one I think is a reasonable one.

    Keep in mind that the lower difficulties are "progressional" difficulties: you are supposed to master beginner and move on to normal, and so on. But in a sense, the top rung on the ladder is the end of progression, not a part of it. There is currently no difficulty tier above UC, and therefore no design imperative to gracefully ease players to and above it. There's no above it. That will always be true about the top tier difficulty for the monthly quests. The bottom tier and top tier of difficulty for progressional content are special cases, because there's no way to enter the bottom, and there's no way to exit the top.
    I would agree with that for the most part. My comment was more in reply to the one that suggested that because we’ve been able to get r5 5* that it’s ok to bump the difficulty of UC. That, in my opinion, is not a valid reason for adjusting difficulty.
    On its face, that isn't a good reason to bump difficulty, because it is simply vague. Indirectly, it might be, if the result of those rank ups across the playerbase makes the completion percentage of UC significantly higher than originally, which is another way of saying that relative to the playerbase UC's difficulty is much lower than originally intended. That data is, unfortunately, something players rarely get to see.
  • Options
    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,876 Guardian

    DNA3000 said:

    Hey everybody, we can go back and forth on this all day, but I want to give some context and information on this Uncollected Rewards change.

    We did not update Uncollected this time around because it's a more delicate balancing act. Why is that? Because as many of you have mentioned, the Difficulty of Uncollected Fluctuates more than Master or Heroic, etc. What we need to look at is both the difficulty level here, and the rewards.

    Is Uncollected where it should be for difficulty, or is there need for a new designation (Cavalier, for instance). Does this Difficulty level become that new level, or is the next one even more Difficult? Do we need to wait a little while and make a new difficulty for after you complete Act 6? Where should Uncollected be in the Difficulty scale compared to what's coming next?

    There are a lot of questions that we need to answer. We're not holding on to a rewards Change until we answer ALL of these, but we need to have some of this figured out before we can look at what we want to do for a difficulty change.

    I hope that answers some questions on that. Let's keep this thread about the actual event itself.

    What makes the most sense to me would be to keep UC rewards the same but knock it back to what it was when it was released (one path of nodes, not one path without them). That way players just getting UC can actually have a shot at doing the maps. Then add Cav difficulty that is a bit harder then what UC is now, with better rewards.
    If Cav difficulty is added it is extremely unlikely, and in my opinion undesirable, for it to be just "a bit harder" than UC. If we add Cav, then following the same design perspective that was followed with UC, UC would no longer "float" as top tier difficulty but would be knocked down to be approximately linearly above Master (my guess: one or two noded paths) while Cav would be substantially higher, and also variable and floating top tier difficulty. It would probably be some paths no nodes, some paths Act 5 nodes, and some paths Act 6 nodes.
    That was my point. Put UC back to where it was because UC isn't the top end of progression anymore. Make Cav the hardest level for the best players.
    Well, at the moment it is for monthly difficulty. And while I would generally agree that Cavalier represents the current highest tier of progress in story mode, I don't think it makes sense for every story mode progress hurdle to correspond to a different monthly quest difficulty tier. Cavalier does seem different, as it is really the first of its kind in many respects, Uncollected status notwithstanding, and Cav difficulty does seem reasonable to me. But I think that argument only goes so far.
  • Options
    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,317 ★★★★★
    I agree. That's my view. If those Rank-Ups create a situation that makes it too easy for the intended level of challenge, it's reason to consider some things. Just to mirror the questions Miike posed in his response about the end of Act 6, if you add R3 6*s in the mix, that reduces the difficulty of UC for those who have them. Then it becomes more of an issue because of what people are using. While doing it for the sake of doing it is not sensible, it also depends on how challenging the content is. Which is why I'm concerned with the variation of the demographic playing UC.
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    WeeHobbit89WeeHobbit89 Posts: 146
    If everyone is that unhappy about uncollected not being changed, then stop moaning about it and don’t bother playing it. Simple
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    WerewrymWerewrym Posts: 2,830 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Werewrym said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Werewrym said:

    Werewrym said:

    Difficulty shouldn't change as we grow stronger... That's not how it has worked in the past, and it's definitely not how it should work now. They should release a new difficulty corresponding to our advancement as players.

    Edit: What I mean is that uncollected is a constant difficulty. Constants don't change, which is why the difficulty shouldn't be changing either.

    Difficulty HAS to change as we grow stronger when it's the plateau of what is offered. Otherwise it no longer presents any challenge.
    I think you misunderstand what I'm saying. Take master difficulty for example. That difficulty level is constant. If the PI of champs in master ranges from 8000-12000, that range shouldn't grow over time because summoners are getting stronger champs at higher ranks. Instead summoners should be using those stronger champs to take on uncollected which offers a higher difficulty cap. However, the difficulty cap of uncollected should not be changing either. My point is that a difficulty level like Uncollected is a constant difficulty, as we get stronger Uncollected should become easier. The difficulty should not grow to match the growth of our champions. This is why I think we need a Cavalier difficulty.
    The problem is we can't keep adding difficulties indefinitely the moment a measurable amount of players exceeds them. The devs stated when UC was introduced that every difficulty below the top was intended to be relatively constant difficulty and roughly on a similar difficulty curve connecting them all, while the top tier difficulty was intended to be more variable, adjusting to the needs of the top tier players. That used to be Master difficulty where they mostly fiddled with boss difficulty, and it is now UC difficulty where Master was demoted and UC added above it. If Cav is added above UC, then UC no longer needs to serve that purpose and can rejoin the other difficulties on the same difficulty curve, and Cav will be the new top tier "floating" difficulty. But there has to be such a difficulty, or rather it is a reasonable design compromise the devs have decided to employ. There's no "should" or "should not" when it comes to that choice. It is a choice, and one I think is a reasonable one.

    Keep in mind that the lower difficulties are "progressional" difficulties: you are supposed to master beginner and move on to normal, and so on. But in a sense, the top rung on the ladder is the end of progression, not a part of it. There is currently no difficulty tier above UC, and therefore no design imperative to gracefully ease players to and above it. There's no above it. That will always be true about the top tier difficulty for the monthly quests. The bottom tier and top tier of difficulty for progressional content are special cases, because there's no way to enter the bottom, and there's no way to exit the top.
    I would agree with that for the most part. My comment was more in reply to the one that suggested that because we’ve been able to get r5 5* that it’s ok to bump the difficulty of UC. That, in my opinion, is not a valid reason for adjusting difficulty.
    On its face, that isn't a good reason to bump difficulty, because it is simply vague. Indirectly, it might be, if the result of those rank ups across the playerbase makes the completion percentage of UC significantly higher than originally, which is another way of saying that relative to the playerbase UC's difficulty is much lower than originally intended. That data is, unfortunately, something players rarely get to see.
    Agreed, but that reason wouldn’t be because people have gotten more r5 5*, it would be because the overall completion percentage of UC has gone up.
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    LeNoirFaineantLeNoirFaineant Posts: 8,643 ★★★★★

    If everyone is that unhappy about uncollected not being changed, then stop moaning about it and don’t bother playing it. Simple

    I don't know that everyone is "that unhappy" about it. People asked and discussed and Kabam responded, and people discussed. But thank you for playing.
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    xNigxNig Posts: 7,263 ★★★★★
    Good that rewards are increased. But as usual, because the increment is relatively small, there will be complaints like “That’s it?”, which is kinda disappointing but expected.

    Adding a Cav difficulty isn’t a bad option but the level of challenge it should provide is questionable. Should it be tuned to 5* R5/6* R2 level? Or 6* R3/4 level?

    If it were the former, then after a short time, Cavalier difficulty becomes “too easy”. If the latter, then it might be “too difficult” upon release. Imo it’s a tough balancing act and definitely not a sustainable one, with the game’s future in mind. It’s unlikely that we want to stack Easy / Normal / Heroic / Masters / Uncollected / Cavalier / xxx / yyy etc.

    My suggestion to Kabam will be to have a limit on the number of difficulties made available to players. Eg max of 5 based on the highest story progression title the player holds, in the current context, it’s Cavalier. Energy considerations might need to be considered as well.
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    ButtehrsButtehrs Posts: 4,876 ★★★★★
    xNig said:

    Good that rewards are increased. But as usual, because the increment is relatively small, there will be complaints like “That’s it?”, which is kinda disappointing but expected.

    Adding a Cav difficulty isn’t a bad option but the level of challenge it should provide is questionable. Should it be tuned to 5* R5/6* R2 level? Or 6* R3/4 level?

    If it were the former, then after a short time, Cavalier difficulty becomes “too easy”. If the latter, then it might be “too difficult” upon release. Imo it’s a tough balancing act and definitely not a sustainable one, with the game’s future in mind. It’s unlikely that we want to stack Easy / Normal / Heroic / Masters / Uncollected / Cavalier / xxx / yyy etc.

    My suggestion to Kabam will be to have a limit on the number of difficulties made available to players. Eg max of 5 based on the highest story progression title the player holds, in the current context, it’s Cavalier. Energy considerations might need to be considered as well.

    Or how about if our team rating is a certain threshold it will allow us to autocomplete the quest because unless you just sit there even autofight will wreck the easier difficulty than what your capable of.
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