It's quite literally impossible to make all Fights "skill-based" while not requiring specific counters in one form or another. How limited and narrow those counters are is another subject. You have almost 200 Champs in the game. Eventually you have to limit what people can use to add a challenge factor. I'm not sure where the eutopian idea of using any Champ anywhere came from, but that's not feasible. That not only negates the point of havint different Champs with different Abilities, it nerfs the entire game into something that becomes really boring really fast.
Sure it is possible. They are well aware of the node combinations they use. There was full intent to limit act 6 to the top 10% of champions in the game and nobody can really deny that.
No, it's not feasible. Look throughout the game. Nodes limit what you can use. Sometimes there are many options, sometimes few. Sometimes you can use "All but....". As for Act 6, obviously the goal at the time was to create a window narrow enough for people with a very extensive Roster could go through. However, that window was too narrow, and @DNA3000 did a particularly good job of explaining how that accelerated difficulty beyond what's possible to grow into. On the subject of being able to use any Champ anywhere and still having skill, I'm afraid that's just another game. It's also a way of making the RNG completely obsolete, which is why I can see the attraction. It's just not reasonable for this particular game. Making them less narrow is possible.
If I look throughout the game... I see plenty of content where any decent champ can be used to beat it. I know that demi god level champs can clear the variants and really any champion can be used in act 5. Even Howard the Duck can do lol. Kabam tuned the difficulty so that only top tier champions can compete without having to use too many items and units in act 6 and abyss. Their designing motive seems to be, "God Tier or Bust"
Notice you're saying any "decent Champ". You're also using reference to the God Tier. Which means it's not just any Champ. There are always limits to what you can use, especially in Story.
Then how about they remove 100 champions from the basic crystals and the we'll all be happy? No viability, no point on the roster besides arena. If we are only limited to these top tier champions in endgame content, war, and aq then what's the point?
For one thing, you're not the only one playing the game, and people coming up still use those. For another, using them or not is a choice. They're not literally useless. People just use others exclusively. There's a difference between requiring certain Champs, and ignoring all others.
If I could I would use these weaker champions but I LITERALLY cannot or I have to pull out my wallet. There's no way around it but use my top tier champions because they are the only ones who can just about get through it. I'm sure I'm not the only one who has to deal with something like this. Can't use the champ? Makes them useless. Yeah I'm at the higher levels of content... but why can't I have an opinion on a champ even if a newer player uses them to beat lower content?
You can use them in EQ if you like. Nothing stopping you. You can use them in the Arena. You can use them in whatever area you want, really. You might not be able to use them in War, but you can use them in AQ if you choose. Depending on your Ally and what Map you're running. There's no such thing as can't use them. Unless they just stand there when you press the buttons. There are many, many Champs that are just plain fun to use. I shelled out $200 trying to get Tigra. Is she capable of insane Damage? Maybe, maybe not. I just like playing with her. She's fun.
At this stage of the game... eq doesn't do much to help you progress. It's just a bonus mode to keep you playing. Arena is boring as hell so I could care less using those champs in that mode.
By that standard, Arena doesn't do much. EQ doesn't do anything. War doesn't help you. AQ doesn't do anything. Story doesn't help. AoL doesn't do much. Game doesn't do anything. Believe me. Being over it is a mentality. Getting over being over it is a different story. Sometimes it takes shifting focus to just enjoying the game and not trying to be top everything. Sometimes it just involves taking a break. I did. Took a break for months. Now my game play doesn't feel so tedious or dire.
Resone I’m didn’t like the champions in 6.2.6 wasn’t the node more that u need counter to him. And op top one it all the node combination wasn’t really that’s fair but prations wil always paid out latter one reason I’m like the Grandmaster figth is because u ain’t limited to options with nullified so 2 very defrinds figth to
Maybe make some content where you CANNOT USE any Revives/Heals.
It would then be just based on pure skill and strength of team as to how far you can get. And if your team dies, them you have to start all over and try again. And again, and again...
Not sure where the money would come from, maybe from having to buy more Energy Refills instead of Potions. Or maybe limited number of free entrance tickets after which you would have to buy more (with Units, or ultimately money if you run out of units)
We have a fight that's based on skill and is pass/fail, 6.2.6 champion. It's also one of the most hated fights by the community. You guys can keep asking for "skill to be rewarded" but when you get it and can't beat something, just cry about it constantly
there's another skill based fight - 6.4 grandmaster. Everyone loves it
You can absolutely unit the grandmaster down though.
really? how? You have to complete challenges, get him wounded...... I don't see how you can do the fight without having at least a bit of skill. Unless you're talking about mercs......
You don't HAVE to get him wounded it would just be an insanely long fight without doing so. You still do damage while he isn't. The only part you can't actually unit down is the last phase but that's just playing keep away for a few seconds
the only really skill based thing in the 6.2 champion is that last 10%, which requires you to dex his special. Which is more skill based? the GM or the champion.
Easily the champion. You'll eventually get the GM down and none of the "skills" required for the fight are particularly difficult really.
The champion fight though after almost a year still has plenty of people roadblocked. I don't know of a single person that got to the GM and had to back out bc they couldn't beat it
that just means that the champion fight is more BS. The beauty of the GM fight is that you can do it with any champ, and you don't need one or two specific counters
It's not BS it just requires a skill that isn't one of the most basic in the game like the GM fight does. If you can't dex, block, and parry by the end of 6.4, well just quit
I would like to see you try and do 6.2 champion with superior iron man. Come back when you're done
That's ridiculous to even state really. I'd like to see you take do you bleed Medusa with him. See I can make pointless hyperbolic statements too.
The champion fight requires learning a specific skill, getting dexterity off his specials in his final phase, it's also pass/fail. The grandmaster requires continually using some of the most basic skills in the game and regardless of whether you ever get very proficient at it you can eventually get him down. Saying the GM fight is more skill based is just silly.
It's much easier and doesn't require a champ counter but requiring a counter to a fight does not immediately make it BS either. That's a core part of this game, if it wasn't there would be no need whatsoever for more than one champ in the game and the game would have died years ago
What he's trying to say is that the 6.2 champion fight is not skill based at all. It is roster based. If you are having bad luck and never pull a viable mystic or slow champion, then you're never beating the fight. And even if you do have those champions, you have to deal with the super annoying last 10% which can really suck up your items and units.
And you'd both still be wrong. A fight needing a counter doesn't mean it's not skill based. That super annoying 10% is the skill gate. If you don't figure out how to dex his specials you don't pass, end of.
Well looks like you're the wrong one here because Kabam is fixing the fight. Just saying. You're not even taking into consideration nodes like No Retreat and the class gates that severely limit your options. The fight is terribly designed and Kabam agrees.
They've changed lots of things that didn't need changing bc of endless screeching by the players. That really doesn't mean anything. More often than not the "fix" ends up being worse as well so best of luck with this one.
By that logic, they changed act 6 completion and exploration rewards and AOL exploration rewards because of endless screeching by endgame players? May be. Also, it was not only the people who were yet to complete the fight that complained, people who have completed and explored everything in game have also complained about that fight. So, majority of the community agrees with that the fight is too niche.
Maybe make some content where you CANNOT USE any Revives/Heals.
It would then be just based on pure skill and strength of team as to how far you can get. And if your team dies, them you have to start all over and try again. And again, and again...
Not sure where the money would come from, maybe from having to buy more Energy Refills instead of Potions. Or maybe limited number of free entrance tickets after which you would have to buy more (with Units, or ultimately money if you run out of units)
We have a fight that's based on skill and is pass/fail, 6.2.6 champion. It's also one of the most hated fights by the community. You guys can keep asking for "skill to be rewarded" but when you get it and can't beat something, just cry about it constantly
there's another skill based fight - 6.4 grandmaster. Everyone loves it
You can absolutely unit the grandmaster down though.
really? how? You have to complete challenges, get him wounded...... I don't see how you can do the fight without having at least a bit of skill. Unless you're talking about mercs......
You don't HAVE to get him wounded it would just be an insanely long fight without doing so. You still do damage while he isn't. The only part you can't actually unit down is the last phase but that's just playing keep away for a few seconds
the only really skill based thing in the 6.2 champion is that last 10%, which requires you to dex his special. Which is more skill based? the GM or the champion.
Easily the champion. You'll eventually get the GM down and none of the "skills" required for the fight are particularly difficult really.
The champion fight though after almost a year still has plenty of people roadblocked. I don't know of a single person that got to the GM and had to back out bc they couldn't beat it
that just means that the champion fight is more BS. The beauty of the GM fight is that you can do it with any champ, and you don't need one or two specific counters
It's not BS it just requires a skill that isn't one of the most basic in the game like the GM fight does. If you can't dex, block, and parry by the end of 6.4, well just quit
I would like to see you try and do 6.2 champion with superior iron man. Come back when you're done
That's ridiculous to even state really. I'd like to see you take do you bleed Medusa with him. See I can make pointless hyperbolic statements too.
The champion fight requires learning a specific skill, getting dexterity off his specials in his final phase, it's also pass/fail. The grandmaster requires continually using some of the most basic skills in the game and regardless of whether you ever get very proficient at it you can eventually get him down. Saying the GM fight is more skill based is just silly.
It's much easier and doesn't require a champ counter but requiring a counter to a fight does not immediately make it BS either. That's a core part of this game, if it wasn't there would be no need whatsoever for more than one champ in the game and the game would have died years ago
What he's trying to say is that the 6.2 champion fight is not skill based at all. It is roster based. If you are having bad luck and never pull a viable mystic or slow champion, then you're never beating the fight. And even if you do have those champions, you have to deal with the super annoying last 10% which can really suck up your items and units.
And you'd both still be wrong. A fight needing a counter doesn't mean it's not skill based. That super annoying 10% is the skill gate. If you don't figure out how to dex his specials you don't pass, end of.
I never said it is not skill based, have you been reading my posts?. I said it is skill and rng based, but the rng matters more because you need very specific requirements for that fight. I would even say its too specific with the requirements stated before of which the champions are very less.
It's quite literally impossible to make all Fights "skill-based" while not requiring specific counters in one form or another. How limited and narrow those counters are is another subject. You have almost 200 Champs in the game. Eventually you have to limit what people can use to add a challenge factor. I'm not sure where the eutopian idea of using any Champ anywhere came from, but that's not feasible. That not only negates the point of havint different Champs with different Abilities, it nerfs the entire game into something that becomes really boring really fast.
Sure it is possible. They are well aware of the node combinations they use. There was full intent to limit act 6 to the top 10% of champions in the game and nobody can really deny that.
No, it's not feasible. Look throughout the game. Nodes limit what you can use. Sometimes there are many options, sometimes few. Sometimes you can use "All but....". As for Act 6, obviously the goal at the time was to create a window narrow enough for people with a very extensive Roster could go through. However, that window was too narrow, and @DNA3000 did a particularly good job of explaining how that accelerated difficulty beyond what's possible to grow into. On the subject of being able to use any Champ anywhere and still having skill, I'm afraid that's just another game. It's also a way of making the RNG completely obsolete, which is why I can see the attraction. It's just not reasonable for this particular game. Making them less narrow is possible.
No one is arguing against nodes limiting a champ. I am not going to take a gwenpool to biohazard node and complain. That would be stupid. This one specific fight has too many things going on. You need a slow debuff champ or you need a champ that can nullify very well. The champion needs to have good block prof or he needs to regen that damage back. He has to fit the evade profile or you could dash back and the dex may not register all the time. Plus you have links like spite and no retreat. All this keeps narrowing the option down to a very small number. I am not saying all champs need to be able to do it and I never agree with that statement. If every champ can do every fight, we only need to rank up 16 champs in total for the game. On a side note, weren't you complaining about Modok labs epic difficulty being too difficult? May be get to Champion boss and fight him before justifying that fight would be more reasonable. Because compared to some fights in 6.1, Modok labs is a cake walk. Just saying
It's quite literally impossible to make all Fights "skill-based" while not requiring specific counters in one form or another. How limited and narrow those counters are is another subject. You have almost 200 Champs in the game. Eventually you have to limit what people can use to add a challenge factor. I'm not sure where the eutopian idea of using any Champ anywhere came from, but that's not feasible. That not only negates the point of havint different Champs with different Abilities, it nerfs the entire game into something that becomes really boring really fast.
Sure it is possible. They are well aware of the node combinations they use. There was full intent to limit act 6 to the top 10% of champions in the game and nobody can really deny that.
No, it's not feasible. Look throughout the game. Nodes limit what you can use. Sometimes there are many options, sometimes few. Sometimes you can use "All but....". As for Act 6, obviously the goal at the time was to create a window narrow enough for people with a very extensive Roster could go through. However, that window was too narrow, and @DNA3000 did a particularly good job of explaining how that accelerated difficulty beyond what's possible to grow into. On the subject of being able to use any Champ anywhere and still having skill, I'm afraid that's just another game. It's also a way of making the RNG completely obsolete, which is why I can see the attraction. It's just not reasonable for this particular game. Making them less narrow is possible.
No one is arguing against nodes limiting a champ. I am not going to take a gwenpool to biohazard node and complain. That would be stupid. This one specific fight has too many things going on. You need a slow debuff champ or you need a champ that can nullify very well. The champion needs to have good block prof or he needs to regen that damage back. He has to fit the evade profile or you could dash back and the dex may not register all the time. Plus you have links like spite and no retreat. All this keeps narrowing the option down to a very small number. I am not saying all champs need to be able to do it and I never agree with that statement. If every champ can do every fight, we only need to rank up 16 champs in total for the game. On a side note, weren't you complaining about Modok labs epic difficulty being too difficult? May be get to Champion boss and fight him before justifying that fight would be more reasonable. Because compared to some fights in 6.1, Modok labs is a cake walk. Just saying
The fact that I keep making the same points and people keep hearing something else astounds me. I didn't say people shouldn't complain about Act 6. Not once. Nor did I say they were wrong. I actually said I agreed from the feedback I saw that the Fights in Act 6 are too narrow. I supported what people were saying. What I did say was the idea that you can make all content based on skill while still being able to use any Champ, is not possible for the current game. I didn't say it's impossible not to limit what people use, so things are as they should be. I also didn't say that Labs were too hard. Not in those words. I said there has to be consistency. At least relative consistency. If they want to make Epic within 40k Champ range, I have no issues with that. Just do it consistently. Having it within a certain range most months and increasing it every now and then is deteimental to many people. I understand where it comes from. They want to add something for people on the higher end of the demographic. There's just too much of a range in the same one. So I'm looking forward to Road to Cav.
So if clearing content on Day 1 is a problem, how long would you suggest players wait before they enter new content? 🤔
Don’t think that was the meaning by the original poster.
Rather that after waiting a long time for new/harder content to come out (ie, Abyss), which Kabam thinks will take quite some time before anyone can beat it, some people will go and want to do it “AT ALL COSTS” (Units, Revives, Heals, etc) right away. And then it is like “Well, what now ? Nothing left to do again”.
Not getting into the discussion of whether quests or certain champs are too hard or not (don’t think he was advocating for it to be made easier either)...
Just a thought I had would be to make some type of content that would actually take a while to beat. And where beating every node on the quest (thru boss) in a single run maybe isn’t an all-or-nothing proposition. And to do that would maybe have to be something where you CAN'T use any Revives/Heals.
Do a quest where the goal, like old-style video games, is to see how far you can get each time. Maybe 10 nodes, but instead of just Rewards for Completion (and/or Explore, if multi-path). Each opponent would have it's own “1-Time Only Reward”, so you would get rewards for each fight (but only once per that node) even without finishing thru Boss. If you only get thru 3 nodes first time (and thus 3 rewards), then future times you don’t get nodes 1-3 rewards again, your next reward comes only when you get past node 4, etc.
The competitive aspect amongst players would be “How far did you make it on your best run so far ?” Eventually, some day, someone might actually beat it completely, but without Revives/Heals that would most likely take a while. But wouldn’t matter that you can't get thru whole thing right away, rewards will be parsed out as you can get further and further in future attempts (for your new best runs).
That sounds like Incursions if revives/potions were removed.
Good analogy 😀 Just as a solo quest though.
One you don’t mind playing over and over to see how far you can get each time. Getting progressively advancing rewards the further you get in subsequent tries.
In old video or pinball games, there was never really any “FINISH” to them, and people played them over and over.
So if clearing content on Day 1 is a problem, how long would you suggest players wait before they enter new content? 🤔
Don’t think that was the meaning by the original poster.
Rather that after waiting a long time for new/harder content to come out (ie, Abyss), which Kabam thinks will take quite some time before anyone can beat it, some people will go and want to do it “AT ALL COSTS” (Units, Revives, Heals, etc) right away. And then it is like “Well, what now ? Nothing left to do again”.
Not getting into the discussion of whether quests or certain champs are too hard or not (don’t think he was advocating for it to be made easier either)...
Just a thought I had would be to make some type of content that would actually take a while to beat. And where beating every node on the quest (thru boss) in a single run maybe isn’t an all-or-nothing proposition. And to do that would maybe have to be something where you CAN'T use any Revives/Heals.
Do a quest where the goal, like old-style video games, is to see how far you can get each time. Maybe 10 nodes, but instead of just Rewards for Completion (and/or Explore, if multi-path). Each opponent would have it's own “1-Time Only Reward”, so you would get rewards for each fight (but only once per that node) even without finishing thru Boss. If you only get thru 3 nodes first time (and thus 3 rewards), then future times you don’t get nodes 1-3 rewards again, your next reward comes only when you get past node 4, etc.
The competitive aspect amongst players would be “How far did you make it on your best run so far ?” Eventually, some day, someone might actually beat it completely, but without Revives/Heals that would most likely take a while. But wouldn’t matter that you can't get thru whole thing right away, rewards will be parsed out as you can get further and further in future attempts (for your new best runs).
May be they could limit the items to be used like in aq and aw. Legends run will have limited resources to be used in terms of revives and potions..no limit on energy refills.
It's quite literally impossible to make all Fights "skill-based" while not requiring specific counters in one form or another. How limited and narrow those counters are is another subject. You have almost 200 Champs in the game. Eventually you have to limit what people can use to add a challenge factor. I'm not sure where the eutopian idea of using any Champ anywhere came from, but that's not feasible. That not only negates the point of havint different Champs with different Abilities, it nerfs the entire game into something that becomes really boring really fast.
Sure it is possible. They are well aware of the node combinations they use. There was full intent to limit act 6 to the top 10% of champions in the game and nobody can really deny that.
No, it's not feasible. Look throughout the game. Nodes limit what you can use. Sometimes there are many options, sometimes few. Sometimes you can use "All but....". As for Act 6, obviously the goal at the time was to create a window narrow enough for people with a very extensive Roster could go through. However, that window was too narrow, and @DNA3000 did a particularly good job of explaining how that accelerated difficulty beyond what's possible to grow into. On the subject of being able to use any Champ anywhere and still having skill, I'm afraid that's just another game. It's also a way of making the RNG completely obsolete, which is why I can see the attraction. It's just not reasonable for this particular game. Making them less narrow is possible.
No one is arguing against nodes limiting a champ. I am not going to take a gwenpool to biohazard node and complain. That would be stupid. This one specific fight has too many things going on. You need a slow debuff champ or you need a champ that can nullify very well. The champion needs to have good block prof or he needs to regen that damage back. He has to fit the evade profile or you could dash back and the dex may not register all the time. Plus you have links like spite and no retreat. All this keeps narrowing the option down to a very small number. I am not saying all champs need to be able to do it and I never agree with that statement. If every champ can do every fight, we only need to rank up 16 champs in total for the game. On a side note, weren't you complaining about Modok labs epic difficulty being too difficult? May be get to Champion boss and fight him before justifying that fight would be more reasonable. Because compared to some fights in 6.1, Modok labs is a cake walk. Just saying
The fact that I keep making the same points and people keep hearing something else astounds me. I didn't say people shouldn't complain about Act 6. Not once. Nor did I say they were wrong. I actually said I agreed from the feedback I saw that the Fights in Act 6 are too narrow. I supported what people were saying. What I did say was the idea that you can make all content based on skill while still being able to use any Champ, is not possible for the current game. I didn't say it's impossible not to limit what people use, so things are as they should be. I also didn't say that Labs were too hard. Not in those words. I said there has to be consistency. At least relative consistency. If they want to make Epic within 40k Champ range, I have no issues with that. Just do it consistently. Having it within a certain range most months and increasing it every now and then is deteimental to many people. I understand where it comes from. They want to add something for people on the higher end of the demographic. There's just too much of a range in the same one. So I'm looking forward to Road to Cav.
So we both agree that not all content can be made for all Champs. There has to be skill aspect and there has to be roster specific aspect as well. But roster cannot trump skill aspect. Each fight should have a good number of counters. They can even be of same class or have a specific ability. Regarding modok labs. I don't think the labs are difficult. Only the boss seems random in terms of class. Other than that you can choose any path and we even have itemless runs with 4 stars on YouTube. Is it more difficult that the previous months? Yes. But we also need to remember that we won't get the same difficulty every month. Epic has been fluctuating for some time now. People thought of gwen pool went to to movies event and the next month was tougher than that and we had a flood of complaints. This is comparable to act 5.4 and act 6.1 difficulty.
No they are not a big part, but they are still a part of the current problems when it comes to stupid nodes and crazy attack scores. If you were to design something, and want it to last you will think up stuff people will struggle with. If then, a majority of endgame players rush to finish the content on the first day, or in the first week they will be left with no content to do. I`m not saying it is the right way to handle the situation. But it is in a way understandable they went this route. If people want to complete content on day one by using a crazy amount of revives/units/money they should. However. Do understand that there is a logical explanation nodes become increasingly more crazy, attack stats skyrocket, and healthpools in normal quests come close to ROL pools. They need to find a way to slow down the whales. If they don't, the whales would have nothing to spend on, the game will not make any money, and the game will die. I am not saying what Kabam uses as a solution is the right one. But by simply only looking at their half of the problem doesn`t seem right. I am no Kabam warrior, I dislike a lot of decisions that were made like the removal of the gold rewards in aq and such (which do not even affect me)
The only other solution I have to the 2 sided problem is one I saw a youtuber mentioned. Just release normal story content without too crazy of nodes and attack power. But introduce a special Challenge mode with all the crazy stuff you can come up with and give people a title for that content. Not something like cavalier that changes something. Just like a legends title, and if you must with some little perks. Whales would still spend on the content, and rush the content. But it would not hurt the smaller spenders and f2p people. They could still have fun with the 'normal' content. And the whales can show their title and get their enjoyment out of the game because they can show their dedication to this game.
Ehh, don't know if this is just me, but the uncollected difficulty on the monthly event quests for the last 6+ months or so has been easy, or at least doable. If anything I feel its been toned down so that players that has progressed a certain level on this game can complete it (uncollected title, at least).
Also, I'm the type to finish uncollected within a couple of days, so I'm part of the "problem" apparently, but I do them because of either for the completion event (which is happening right now) or because I have energy refills expiring (or both). I approach every month by getting the monthly event quest out of the way as quickly as possible so I can continue focusing on preparing for other content, such as Act 6, Variant or Abyss and also because I'd like my top champs free for AQ.
I'm pretty sure a lot of players are in the same situation as me and I doubt Kabam would alter the monthly event quest to cater to "Endgame players", which amount to very little compared to the entire player base.
@Worknprogress the definition of a “skill based fight” in this community is somewhat weird.
To most, a “skill based fight” is a fight that, without the right amount of skill, cannot be passed by anyone, and is a challenging fight.
To most aspiring members of this community, a “skill based fight” is one which is challenging that they can complete (the last part is the most important part lol).
I don't believe that most people believe a "skill based fight" is a fight that cannot be completed at all without some specific skill level. I believe most people believe a skill based fight is a fight that appropriately rewards skill.
Why the Grandmaster fight is celebrated? Cause he’s easy. He only tests you on 3 skills, parry/block, intercept, get hit (whether this is a “skill” or not is up for debate), which arguably are the core fundamentals on which this game is built on. Dexing specials, nope, not a core skill (even a champ like RG is introduced to block the unblockable).
I think that's a bit harsh. I don't think people like the Grandmaster because it is "easy" but rather because, as you put it, he challenges fundamental skills. More importantly, those fundamental skills are skills the game has already taught you in other parts of the content. So the Grandmaster is a way to pay off that skill progress. The Champion, on the other hand, comes out of nowhere. Not because he challenges dexing, dexing is also a fundamental skill. In fact dexing is a far more fundamental and early-learned skill than intercepting is. But because it challenges dexing in a degenerate way. No one deliberately tries to trigger dexing, they try to not get hit. Dashing back out of reach of the attack is just as successful as waiting for the last instant and then dexing. In fact, that latter is arguably stupid. There is absolutely nothing of sufficient value to be gained from doing that in any other part of the game until the Champion. And that means it throws a unique challenge from out of nowhere.
Which *itself* is not problematic if the game gives players an opportunity to learn that skill. But The Champion sits at the end of an Act 6.2 path. It isn't a particularly hard one (the easy path, anyway) but it costs sufficient energy that the only way to practice on him effectively is to spend: either on revives or on energy refills, one or the other. The proof is Infinity Thanos, who also presented out of the ordinary challenges but isn't nearly as hated as the Champion boss was. Players had the opportunity to learn how to beat him because there was less of a barrier to practice and learning, so his novelty was not considered as punishing.
People don't complain as much about the Grandmaster because a) he culminates skills rather than invents a degenerate challenge, and b) the players who reach him must be able to get past the Champion in the first place, so the fight is shielded from complaints from players who get stuck behind the Champion.
@Worknprogress the definition of a “skill based fight” in this community is somewhat weird.
To most, a “skill based fight” is a fight that, without the right amount of skill, cannot be passed by anyone, and is a challenging fight.
To most aspiring members of this community, a “skill based fight” is one which is challenging that they can complete (the last part is the most important part lol).
I don't believe that most people believe a "skill based fight" is a fight that cannot be completed at all without some specific skill level. I believe most people believe a skill based fight is a fight that appropriately rewards skill.
Why the Grandmaster fight is celebrated? Cause he’s easy. He only tests you on 3 skills, parry/block, intercept, get hit (whether this is a “skill” or not is up for debate), which arguably are the core fundamentals on which this game is built on. Dexing specials, nope, not a core skill (even a champ like RG is introduced to block the unblockable).
I think that's a bit harsh. I don't think people like the Grandmaster because it is "easy" but rather because, as you put it, he challenges fundamental skills. More importantly, those fundamental skills are skills the game has already taught you in other parts of the content. So the Grandmaster is a way to pay off that skill progress. The Champion, on the other hand, comes out of nowhere. Not because he challenges dexing, dexing is also a fundamental skill. In fact dexing is a far more fundamental and early-learned skill than intercepting is. But because it challenges dexing in a degenerate way. No one deliberately tries to trigger dexing, they try to not get hit. Dashing back out of reach of the attack is just as successful as waiting for the last instant and then dexing. In fact, that latter is arguably stupid. There is absolutely nothing of sufficient value to be gained from doing that in any other part of the game until the Champion. And that means it throws a unique challenge from out of nowhere.
Which *itself* is not problematic if the game gives players an opportunity to learn that skill. But The Champion sits at the end of an Act 6.2 path. It isn't a particularly hard one (the easy path, anyway) but it costs sufficient energy that the only way to practice on him effectively is to spend: either on revives or on energy refills, one or the other. The proof is Infinity Thanos, who also presented out of the ordinary challenges but isn't nearly as hated as the Champion boss was. Players had the opportunity to learn how to beat him because there was less of a barrier to practice and learning, so his novelty was not considered as punishing.
People don't complain as much about the Grandmaster because a) he culminates skills rather than invents a degenerate challenge, and b) the players who reach him must be able to get past the Champion in the first place, so the fight is shielded from complaints from players who get stuck behind the Champion.
There are multiple mechanics in the game that encourage actually registering dexterity (Stark's poise charges, Red Guardians durability, invisible woman's debuffs)
The fact that I keep making the same points and people keep hearing something else astounds me. I didn't say people shouldn't complain about Act 6. Not once. Nor did I say they were wrong. I actually said I agreed from the feedback I saw that the Fights in Act 6 are too narrow. I supported what people were saying. What I did say was the idea that you can make all content based on skill while still being able to use any Champ, is not possible for the current game.
That's interesting, because that was actually my goal for the Boss Rush fight I designed. The intent was to make the fight as skill-oriented as possible without restricting the champ you could bring to the fight to the highest degree possible. Moreover, the intent was to make different kinds of champs fight the fight differently, so that the fight didn't take the trivial way out of allowing every champ because no champ abilities matter.
I don't think the fight is perfect in that regard, but I think it lands in approximately the right zip code.
Ehh, don't know if this is just me, but the uncollected difficulty on the monthly event quests for the last 6+ months or so has been easy, or at least doable. If anything I feel its been toned down so that players that has progressed a certain level on this game can complete it (uncollected title, at least).
Also, I'm the type to finish uncollected within a couple of days, so I'm part of the "problem" apparently, but I do them because of either for the completion event (which is happening right now) or because I have energy refills expiring (or both). I approach every month by getting the monthly event quest out of the way as quickly as possible so I can continue focusing on preparing for other content, such as Act 6, Variant or Abyss and also because I'd like my top champs free for AQ.
I'm pretty sure a lot of players are in the same situation as me and I doubt Kabam would alter the monthly event quest to cater to "Endgame players", which amount to very little compared to the entire player base.
Sorry if I didn't specify. But in my original post I meant permanent content. Not something that is only around for a month, and thus in a way can not be done over a longer period of time.
The fact that I keep making the same points and people keep hearing something else astounds me. I didn't say people shouldn't complain about Act 6. Not once. Nor did I say they were wrong. I actually said I agreed from the feedback I saw that the Fights in Act 6 are too narrow. I supported what people were saying. What I did say was the idea that you can make all content based on skill while still being able to use any Champ, is not possible for the current game.
That's interesting, because that was actually my goal for the Boss Rush fight I designed. The intent was to make the fight as skill-oriented as possible without restricting the champ you could bring to the fight to the highest degree possible. Moreover, the intent was to make different kinds of champs fight the fight differently, so that the fight didn't take the trivial way out of allowing every champ because no champ abilities matter.
I don't think the fight is perfect in that regard, but I think it lands in approximately the right zip code.
It's definitely possible. That's another example as well. In terms of all future content, I don't see it as a viable direction for this game. Not completely. I do agree that making those counters too specific creates a situation not unlike pre-12.0, where you had to pull a few Champs before you could beat things and everything was centered around them. However, a part of the game is having the right counters. Not only skill, but developing a Roster with the correct Abilities to do tasks. Part of it is skill, part of it is acquisition, and part of it is making informed choices based on what's available and what the challenge is. It's a balance, really. Too much in any direction upsets the balance. As much as people would love to be able to use any Champ in any content with skill, that would defeat the purpose of having RNG to begin with. It would defeat the purpose of having different Champs, different Rarities, making choices based on what we have and Rank, Arena, sales (as much as people say that's the only focus), really a whole host of areas of the game. Even the motivation to progress. Why bother? Rank your choices for highest, and beat everything. As much as people would like that because it would mean no more dependency on RNG, that would be the end of the game as we know it. Champs would become completely interchangeable, save for Class, and we would become more like Pokémon. I'd give it 6 months to a year.
The fact that I keep making the same points and people keep hearing something else astounds me. I didn't say people shouldn't complain about Act 6. Not once. Nor did I say they were wrong. I actually said I agreed from the feedback I saw that the Fights in Act 6 are too narrow. I supported what people were saying. What I did say was the idea that you can make all content based on skill while still being able to use any Champ, is not possible for the current game.
That's interesting, because that was actually my goal for the Boss Rush fight I designed. The intent was to make the fight as skill-oriented as possible without restricting the champ you could bring to the fight to the highest degree possible. Moreover, the intent was to make different kinds of champs fight the fight differently, so that the fight didn't take the trivial way out of allowing every champ because no champ abilities matter.
I don't think the fight is perfect in that regard, but I think it lands in approximately the right zip code.
It's definitely possible. That's another example as well. In terms of all future content, I don't see it as a viable direction for this game. Not completely. I do agree that making those counters too specific creates a situation not unlike pre-12.0, where you had to pull a few Champs before you could beat things and everything was centered around them. However, a part of the game is having the right counters. Not only skill, but developing a Roster with the correct Abilities to do tasks. Part of it is skill, part of it is acquisition, and part of it is making informed choices based on what's available and what the challenge is. It's a balance, really. Too much in any direction upsets the balance. As much as people would love to be able to use any Champ in any content with skill, that would defeat the purpose of having RNG to begin with. It would defeat the purpose of having different Champs, different Rarities, making choices based on what we have and Rank, Arena, sales (as much as people say that's the only focus), really a whole host of areas of the game. Even the motivation to progress. Why bother? Rank your choices for highest, and beat everything. As much as people would like that because it would mean no more dependency on RNG, that would be the end of the game as we know it. Champs would become completely interchangeable, save for Class, and we would become more like Pokémon. I'd give it 6 months to a year.
@GroundedWisdom I don't think people want everything to be beaten by every champ. That's not good for the game and ultimately you will need only 16 champs for the whole game. The reason Champion fight and the flow wars are hated is the counters are very less. I myself don't use quake, Don't have g2099 or the ghost synergy.So, I need to take it slow in wars. We need a reasonable number of counters. What is reasonable is again up for debate, but I think in a game with 170 champs, 50 should be reasonable. @DNA3000 One of the irritants in the fight is people ask you to duel and practice for the fight and I did it for weeks. The duel and the real thing are vastly different. I saw my health disappear so fast it was not even funny. Kabam should either introduce a duel target to duel the actual champion or give a low energy path so that we can practice against him. If they could make us select which links should be up, that would be even better. I can guarantee that if we had a practice run to defeat him, the complaints would reduce drastically for that fight
@Worknprogress the definition of a “skill based fight” in this community is somewhat weird.
To most, a “skill based fight” is a fight that, without the right amount of skill, cannot be passed by anyone, and is a challenging fight.
To most aspiring members of this community, a “skill based fight” is one which is challenging that they can complete (the last part is the most important part lol).
I don't believe that most people believe a "skill based fight" is a fight that cannot be completed at all without some specific skill level. I believe most people believe a skill based fight is a fight that appropriately rewards skill.
Why the Grandmaster fight is celebrated? Cause he’s easy. He only tests you on 3 skills, parry/block, intercept, get hit (whether this is a “skill” or not is up for debate), which arguably are the core fundamentals on which this game is built on. Dexing specials, nope, not a core skill (even a champ like RG is introduced to block the unblockable).
I think that's a bit harsh. I don't think people like the Grandmaster because it is "easy" but rather because, as you put it, he challenges fundamental skills. More importantly, those fundamental skills are skills the game has already taught you in other parts of the content. So the Grandmaster is a way to pay off that skill progress. The Champion, on the other hand, comes out of nowhere. Not because he challenges dexing, dexing is also a fundamental skill. In fact dexing is a far more fundamental and early-learned skill than intercepting is. But because it challenges dexing in a degenerate way. No one deliberately tries to trigger dexing, they try to not get hit. Dashing back out of reach of the attack is just as successful as waiting for the last instant and then dexing. In fact, that latter is arguably stupid. There is absolutely nothing of sufficient value to be gained from doing that in any other part of the game until the Champion. And that means it throws a unique challenge from out of nowhere.
Which *itself* is not problematic if the game gives players an opportunity to learn that skill. But The Champion sits at the end of an Act 6.2 path. It isn't a particularly hard one (the easy path, anyway) but it costs sufficient energy that the only way to practice on him effectively is to spend: either on revives or on energy refills, one or the other. The proof is Infinity Thanos, who also presented out of the ordinary challenges but isn't nearly as hated as the Champion boss was. Players had the opportunity to learn how to beat him because there was less of a barrier to practice and learning, so his novelty was not considered as punishing.
People don't complain as much about the Grandmaster because a) he culminates skills rather than invents a degenerate challenge, and b) the players who reach him must be able to get past the Champion in the first place, so the fight is shielded from complaints from players who get stuck behind the Champion.
There are multiple mechanics in the game that encourage actually registering dexterity (Stark's poise charges, Red Guardians durability, invisible woman's debuffs)
In all the examples that you gave, you don't actually need to bait a particular attack, dexing basic attack and dexing a special attack that has all physical hits is vastly different. If the champion had a ranged attack which was difficult to dex like maestro sp1, and the challenge was to dex that 5 times, It would be reasonable.
I stand by the fact that many people have completed the champion fight 1 or 6 times... if it was that unreasonable then now one would of done it.
Do have the right counter.. wait until you grow your roster. Do a variant, play arena to earn shards and pull the champs u require and come back. We have all had to do it at some Point in the game
@Worknprogress the definition of a “skill based fight” in this community is somewhat weird.
To most, a “skill based fight” is a fight that, without the right amount of skill, cannot be passed by anyone, and is a challenging fight.
To most aspiring members of this community, a “skill based fight” is one which is challenging that they can complete (the last part is the most important part lol).
I don't believe that most people believe a "skill based fight" is a fight that cannot be completed at all without some specific skill level. I believe most people believe a skill based fight is a fight that appropriately rewards skill.
Why the Grandmaster fight is celebrated? Cause he’s easy. He only tests you on 3 skills, parry/block, intercept, get hit (whether this is a “skill” or not is up for debate), which arguably are the core fundamentals on which this game is built on. Dexing specials, nope, not a core skill (even a champ like RG is introduced to block the unblockable).
I think that's a bit harsh. I don't think people like the Grandmaster because it is "easy" but rather because, as you put it, he challenges fundamental skills. More importantly, those fundamental skills are skills the game has already taught you in other parts of the content. So the Grandmaster is a way to pay off that skill progress. The Champion, on the other hand, comes out of nowhere. Not because he challenges dexing, dexing is also a fundamental skill. In fact dexing is a far more fundamental and early-learned skill than intercepting is. But because it challenges dexing in a degenerate way. No one deliberately tries to trigger dexing, they try to not get hit. Dashing back out of reach of the attack is just as successful as waiting for the last instant and then dexing. In fact, that latter is arguably stupid. There is absolutely nothing of sufficient value to be gained from doing that in any other part of the game until the Champion. And that means it throws a unique challenge from out of nowhere.
Which *itself* is not problematic if the game gives players an opportunity to learn that skill. But The Champion sits at the end of an Act 6.2 path. It isn't a particularly hard one (the easy path, anyway) but it costs sufficient energy that the only way to practice on him effectively is to spend: either on revives or on energy refills, one or the other. The proof is Infinity Thanos, who also presented out of the ordinary challenges but isn't nearly as hated as the Champion boss was. Players had the opportunity to learn how to beat him because there was less of a barrier to practice and learning, so his novelty was not considered as punishing.
People don't complain as much about the Grandmaster because a) he culminates skills rather than invents a degenerate challenge, and b) the players who reach him must be able to get past the Champion in the first place, so the fight is shielded from complaints from players who get stuck behind the Champion.
There are multiple mechanics in the game that encourage actually registering dexterity (Stark's poise charges, Red Guardians durability, invisible woman's debuffs)
In all the examples that you gave, you don't actually need to bait a particular attack, dexing basic attack and dexing a special attack that has all physical hits is vastly different. If the champion had a ranged attack which was difficult to dex like maestro sp1, and the challenge was to dex that 5 times, It would be reasonable.
It's not really though, if you can learn the timing and spacing for one you can eventually learn it for the other. Just bc people can't be bothered to learn it doesn't me they can't. If some people spent half as much time trying to learn how to do things with the champs they actually do have as opposed to complaining about the ones they don't have, we'd all be better off
@Worknprogress the definition of a “skill based fight” in this community is somewhat weird.
To most, a “skill based fight” is a fight that, without the right amount of skill, cannot be passed by anyone, and is a challenging fight.
To most aspiring members of this community, a “skill based fight” is one which is challenging that they can complete (the last part is the most important part lol).
I don't believe that most people believe a "skill based fight" is a fight that cannot be completed at all without some specific skill level. I believe most people believe a skill based fight is a fight that appropriately rewards skill.
Why the Grandmaster fight is celebrated? Cause he’s easy. He only tests you on 3 skills, parry/block, intercept, get hit (whether this is a “skill” or not is up for debate), which arguably are the core fundamentals on which this game is built on. Dexing specials, nope, not a core skill (even a champ like RG is introduced to block the unblockable).
I think that's a bit harsh. I don't think people like the Grandmaster because it is "easy" but rather because, as you put it, he challenges fundamental skills. More importantly, those fundamental skills are skills the game has already taught you in other parts of the content. So the Grandmaster is a way to pay off that skill progress. The Champion, on the other hand, comes out of nowhere. Not because he challenges dexing, dexing is also a fundamental skill. In fact dexing is a far more fundamental and early-learned skill than intercepting is. But because it challenges dexing in a degenerate way. No one deliberately tries to trigger dexing, they try to not get hit. Dashing back out of reach of the attack is just as successful as waiting for the last instant and then dexing. In fact, that latter is arguably stupid. There is absolutely nothing of sufficient value to be gained from doing that in any other part of the game until the Champion. And that means it throws a unique challenge from out of nowhere.
Which *itself* is not problematic if the game gives players an opportunity to learn that skill. But The Champion sits at the end of an Act 6.2 path. It isn't a particularly hard one (the easy path, anyway) but it costs sufficient energy that the only way to practice on him effectively is to spend: either on revives or on energy refills, one or the other. The proof is Infinity Thanos, who also presented out of the ordinary challenges but isn't nearly as hated as the Champion boss was. Players had the opportunity to learn how to beat him because there was less of a barrier to practice and learning, so his novelty was not considered as punishing.
People don't complain as much about the Grandmaster because a) he culminates skills rather than invents a degenerate challenge, and b) the players who reach him must be able to get past the Champion in the first place, so the fight is shielded from complaints from players who get stuck behind the Champion.
There are multiple mechanics in the game that encourage actually registering dexterity (Stark's poise charges, Red Guardians durability, invisible woman's debuffs)
In all the examples that you gave, you don't actually need to bait a particular attack, dexing basic attack and dexing a special attack that has all physical hits is vastly different. If the champion had a ranged attack which was difficult to dex like maestro sp1, and the challenge was to dex that 5 times, It would be reasonable.
It's not really though, if you can learn the timing and spacing for one you can eventually learn it for the other. Just bc people can't be bothered to learn it doesn't me they can't. If some people spent half as much time trying to learn how to do things with the champs they actually do have as opposed to complaining about the ones they don't have, we'd all be better off
Also you can practice with champion duels. practice with whale milker's champion, eventually you can get him down itemless
@Worknprogress the definition of a “skill based fight” in this community is somewhat weird.
To most, a “skill based fight” is a fight that, without the right amount of skill, cannot be passed by anyone, and is a challenging fight.
To most aspiring members of this community, a “skill based fight” is one which is challenging that they can complete (the last part is the most important part lol).
I don't believe that most people believe a "skill based fight" is a fight that cannot be completed at all without some specific skill level. I believe most people believe a skill based fight is a fight that appropriately rewards skill.
Why the Grandmaster fight is celebrated? Cause he’s easy. He only tests you on 3 skills, parry/block, intercept, get hit (whether this is a “skill” or not is up for debate), which arguably are the core fundamentals on which this game is built on. Dexing specials, nope, not a core skill (even a champ like RG is introduced to block the unblockable).
I think that's a bit harsh. I don't think people like the Grandmaster because it is "easy" but rather because, as you put it, he challenges fundamental skills. More importantly, those fundamental skills are skills the game has already taught you in other parts of the content. So the Grandmaster is a way to pay off that skill progress. The Champion, on the other hand, comes out of nowhere. Not because he challenges dexing, dexing is also a fundamental skill. In fact dexing is a far more fundamental and early-learned skill than intercepting is. But because it challenges dexing in a degenerate way. No one deliberately tries to trigger dexing, they try to not get hit. Dashing back out of reach of the attack is just as successful as waiting for the last instant and then dexing. In fact, that latter is arguably stupid. There is absolutely nothing of sufficient value to be gained from doing that in any other part of the game until the Champion. And that means it throws a unique challenge from out of nowhere.
Which *itself* is not problematic if the game gives players an opportunity to learn that skill. But The Champion sits at the end of an Act 6.2 path. It isn't a particularly hard one (the easy path, anyway) but it costs sufficient energy that the only way to practice on him effectively is to spend: either on revives or on energy refills, one or the other. The proof is Infinity Thanos, who also presented out of the ordinary challenges but isn't nearly as hated as the Champion boss was. Players had the opportunity to learn how to beat him because there was less of a barrier to practice and learning, so his novelty was not considered as punishing.
People don't complain as much about the Grandmaster because a) he culminates skills rather than invents a degenerate challenge, and b) the players who reach him must be able to get past the Champion in the first place, so the fight is shielded from complaints from players who get stuck behind the Champion.
There are multiple mechanics in the game that encourage actually registering dexterity (Stark's poise charges, Red Guardians durability, invisible woman's debuffs)
In all the examples that you gave, you don't actually need to bait a particular attack, dexing basic attack and dexing a special attack that has all physical hits is vastly different. If the champion had a ranged attack which was difficult to dex like maestro sp1, and the challenge was to dex that 5 times, It would be reasonable.
It's not really though, if you can learn the timing and spacing for one you can eventually learn it for the other. Just bc people can't be bothered to learn it doesn't me they can't. If some people spent half as much time trying to learn how to do things with the champs they actually do have as opposed to complaining about the ones they don't have, we'd all be better off
I did learn it for weeks and I did get past the champion. Fighting a duel and fighting the real thing is really different. No reason to get salty with the response.
People commenting the champion is skill based are absolutely wrong..it's not a skill fight..if it was many more would complete it and there would be less complaints. I agree many are complaining simply to complain..but that fight required skill and a huge bit of luck to get the required champion. I know 3 or 4 main people get in every post and say thats an skill based gate..but it's really not. We see the grandmaster fight done with all kinds of champion..I am yet to see the champion fight with even mid tier Champs. For me..the champion fight was good..I felt that dexing is special did not register many times..and I have seen people complain about the same thing.. If his specials were projectile based..it would make it easier. All I am seeing here is people who have completed act 6 looking down on people asking the fight to be made easier. Do I think the fight is tough? Yes.. Should it be nerfed? Only interms of removing no retreat and spite. Do I care if they nerf it? Nope. I know I will eventually explore that.
Most people consider Hood mid tier at best and I personally know multiple people who've used him to beat the champion. People have also used Loki.
Do certain champs make the fight easier? Sure but most of the champs people claim are NEEDED just aren't in reality.
Again, You NEED certain champ to do the fight. if it was really just skill based, we would be seeing Swedeah doing that fight with Kamala khan. I think you missed my main point in that it is not purely skill based. And there is no point in gating players from progressing in story mode when its not even just skill. If you want to give players will good skill and roster a challenge? Give maze every month with insane rewards. You don't stop people progressing in the main mode of the game. I would call grandmaster fight a gate, purely because as you said, it requires basic skills to progress. Champion fight does not do that. I get the point that it should not be an easy fight and it should not be done with unit man either. But the fight must end at some point. I heard a suggestion that every time you died the counter should increase and it should decrease for the dex. There must be some mechanism to make the fight possible. At its current state, its just impossible if you dont have a specific set of counters
This game is all about needing counters. As long as they aren't so specific or rare that only a handful of champs can counter a fight it's not a problem. There are lots of counters to that fight at this point.
Just bc a fight isn't 100% about skill doesn't mean it isn't skill based or BS. That's absurd. I used the do you bleed Medusa boss as an example earlier and I don't see you up in arms bc you HAVE to use specific type of champs there.
Bottom line is getting through the champion fight is more skill gated than the grandmaster which is the whole point of this current discussion. Even if you unit down the first 90% if you don't eventually learn to get 5 dexs in one fight, you never finish it. That's just not true with the GM fight
Sorry if I was not clear. But, I don't mind counters if they are a available in a wide range. Do you bleed has so many counters, not all of them good mind you but just make the fight longer. Champion boss requires a nullifying champs with either good block prof or regen during fight. Kabam are introducing more and more mystic champs that can counter him. But let's face it, rng makes it difficult to aim for champs. Dexing him 5 times is another issue altogether. I already said my dexes weren't registering sometimes, add to the fact that some champs have easier time dexing than others. I don't have a problem with the fight itself being what it is. But calling it a purely skill based is not correct. Whether it is more skilled based than GM or not is not something I can say because I have not reached that point. So, I am not going to go into that
That's not even true bc neither Loki or Hood have amazing block prof or regen and both have been used for the champion fight. It's convenient to have those things but not even slightly necessary
If you're talking initial clear. To 100% clear Loki and Hood are not counters for no retreat. Anybody can do inital clear with any mystic champion with md4 or above.
I used Hood for no retreat and 6 revives..... I think he is probably one of the better counters with his invisibility. not saying Champion fight is better, though. It was exhilarating, but it wasnt fun. My previous runs made me good with hood vs him.
It's quite literally impossible to make all Fights "skill-based" while not requiring specific counters in one form or another. How limited and narrow those counters are is another subject. You have almost 200 Champs in the game. Eventually you have to limit what people can use to add a challenge factor. I'm not sure where the eutopian idea of using any Champ anywhere came from, but that's not feasible. That not only negates the point of havint different Champs with different Abilities, it nerfs the entire game into something that becomes really boring really fast.
Sure it is possible. They are well aware of the node combinations they use. There was full intent to limit act 6 to the top 10% of champions in the game and nobody can really deny that.
No, it's not feasible. Look throughout the game. Nodes limit what you can use. Sometimes there are many options, sometimes few. Sometimes you can use "All but....". As for Act 6, obviously the goal at the time was to create a window narrow enough for people with a very extensive Roster could go through. However, that window was too narrow, and @DNA3000 did a particularly good job of explaining how that accelerated difficulty beyond what's possible to grow into. On the subject of being able to use any Champ anywhere and still having skill, I'm afraid that's just another game. It's also a way of making the RNG completely obsolete, which is why I can see the attraction. It's just not reasonable for this particular game. Making them less narrow is possible.
No one is arguing against nodes limiting a champ. I am not going to take a gwenpool to biohazard node and complain. That would be stupid. This one specific fight has too many things going on. You need a slow debuff champ or you need a champ that can nullify very well. The champion needs to have good block prof or he needs to regen that damage back. He has to fit the evade profile or you could dash back and the dex may not register all the time. Plus you have links like spite and no retreat. All this keeps narrowing the option down to a very small number. I am not saying all champs need to be able to do it and I never agree with that statement. If every champ can do every fight, we only need to rank up 16 champs in total for the game. On a side note, weren't you complaining about Modok labs epic difficulty being too difficult? May be get to Champion boss and fight him before justifying that fight would be more reasonable. Because compared to some fights in 6.1, Modok labs is a cake walk. Just saying
The fact that I keep making the same points and people keep hearing something else astounds me. I didn't say people shouldn't complain about Act 6. Not once. Nor did I say they were wrong. I actually said I agreed from the feedback I saw that the Fights in Act 6 are too narrow. I supported what people were saying. What I did say was the idea that you can make all content based on skill while still being able to use any Champ, is not possible for the current game. I didn't say it's impossible not to limit what people use, so things are as they should be. I also didn't say that Labs were too hard. Not in those words. I said there has to be consistency. At least relative consistency. If they want to make Epic within 40k Champ range, I have no issues with that. Just do it consistently. Having it within a certain range most months and increasing it every now and then is deteimental to many people. I understand where it comes from. They want to add something for people on the higher end of the demographic. There's just too much of a range in the same one. So I'm looking forward to Road to Cav.
You mean looking for to "not doing road to cav" yet derail every thread opened about it.
People commenting the champion is skill based are absolutely wrong..it's not a skill fight..if it was many more would complete it and there would be less complaints. I agree many are complaining simply to complain..but that fight required skill and a huge bit of luck to get the required champion. I know 3 or 4 main people get in every post and say thats an skill based gate..but it's really not. We see the grandmaster fight done with all kinds of champion..I am yet to see the champion fight with even mid tier Champs. For me..the champion fight was good..I felt that dexing is special did not register many times..and I have seen people complain about the same thing.. If his specials were projectile based..it would make it easier. All I am seeing here is people who have completed act 6 looking down on people asking the fight to be made easier. Do I think the fight is tough? Yes.. Should it be nerfed? Only interms of removing no retreat and spite. Do I care if they nerf it? Nope. I know I will eventually explore that.
Most people consider Hood mid tier at best and I personally know multiple people who've used him to beat the champion. People have also used Loki.
Do certain champs make the fight easier? Sure but most of the champs people claim are NEEDED just aren't in reality.
Again, You NEED certain champ to do the fight. if it was really just skill based, we would be seeing Swedeah doing that fight with Kamala khan. I think you missed my main point in that it is not purely skill based. And there is no point in gating players from progressing in story mode when its not even just skill. If you want to give players will good skill and roster a challenge? Give maze every month with insane rewards. You don't stop people progressing in the main mode of the game. I would call grandmaster fight a gate, purely because as you said, it requires basic skills to progress. Champion fight does not do that. I get the point that it should not be an easy fight and it should not be done with unit man either. But the fight must end at some point. I heard a suggestion that every time you died the counter should increase and it should decrease for the dex. There must be some mechanism to make the fight possible. At its current state, its just impossible if you dont have a specific set of counters
This game is all about needing counters. As long as they aren't so specific or rare that only a handful of champs can counter a fight it's not a problem. There are lots of counters to that fight at this point.
Just bc a fight isn't 100% about skill doesn't mean it isn't skill based or BS. That's absurd. I used the do you bleed Medusa boss as an example earlier and I don't see you up in arms bc you HAVE to use specific type of champs there.
Bottom line is getting through the champion fight is more skill gated than the grandmaster which is the whole point of this current discussion. Even if you unit down the first 90% if you don't eventually learn to get 5 dexs in one fight, you never finish it. That's just not true with the GM fight
Sorry if I was not clear. But, I don't mind counters if they are a available in a wide range. Do you bleed has so many counters, not all of them good mind you but just make the fight longer. Champion boss requires a nullifying champs with either good block prof or regen during fight. Kabam are introducing more and more mystic champs that can counter him. But let's face it, rng makes it difficult to aim for champs. Dexing him 5 times is another issue altogether. I already said my dexes weren't registering sometimes, add to the fact that some champs have easier time dexing than others. I don't have a problem with the fight itself being what it is. But calling it a purely skill based is not correct. Whether it is more skilled based than GM or not is not something I can say because I have not reached that point. So, I am not going to go into that
That's not even true bc neither Loki or Hood have amazing block prof or regen and both have been used for the champion fight. It's convenient to have those things but not even slightly necessary
If you're talking initial clear. To 100% clear Loki and Hood are not counters for no retreat. Anybody can do inital clear with any mystic champion with md4 or above.
I used Hood for no retreat and 6 revives..... I think he is probably one of the better counters with his invisibility. not saying Champion fight is better, though. It was exhilarating, but it wasnt fun. My previous runs made me good with hood vs him.
I'd have to see video to confirm that. What about hood makes him a good option for no retreat? Does his invisibility make him immune to degen?
Comments
On a side note, weren't you complaining about Modok labs epic difficulty being too difficult? May be get to Champion boss and fight him before justifying that fight would be more reasonable. Because compared to some fights in 6.1, Modok labs is a cake walk. Just saying
I didn't say people shouldn't complain about Act 6. Not once. Nor did I say they were wrong. I actually said I agreed from the feedback I saw that the Fights in Act 6 are too narrow. I supported what people were saying. What I did say was the idea that you can make all content based on skill while still being able to use any Champ, is not possible for the current game. I didn't say it's impossible not to limit what people use, so things are as they should be.
I also didn't say that Labs were too hard. Not in those words. I said there has to be consistency. At least relative consistency. If they want to make Epic within 40k Champ range, I have no issues with that. Just do it consistently. Having it within a certain range most months and increasing it every now and then is deteimental to many people. I understand where it comes from. They want to add something for people on the higher end of the demographic. There's just too much of a range in the same one. So I'm looking forward to Road to Cav.
Rather that after waiting a long time for new/harder content to come out (ie, Abyss), which Kabam thinks will take quite some time before anyone can beat it, some people will go and want to do it “AT ALL COSTS” (Units, Revives, Heals, etc) right away.
And then it is like “Well, what now ? Nothing left to do again”.
Not getting into the discussion of whether quests or certain champs are too hard or not (don’t think he was advocating for it to be made easier either)...
Just a thought I had would be to make some type of content that would actually take a while to beat.
And where beating every node on the quest (thru boss) in a single run maybe isn’t an all-or-nothing proposition.
And to do that would maybe have to be something where you CAN'T use any Revives/Heals.
Do a quest where the goal, like old-style video games, is to see how far you can get each time.
Maybe 10 nodes, but instead of just Rewards for Completion (and/or Explore, if multi-path).
Each opponent would have it's own “1-Time Only Reward”, so you would get rewards for each fight (but only once per that node) even without finishing thru Boss.
If you only get thru 3 nodes first time (and thus 3 rewards), then future times you don’t get nodes 1-3 rewards again, your next reward comes only when you get past node 4, etc.
The competitive aspect amongst players would be “How far did you make it on your best run so far ?”
Eventually, some day, someone might actually beat it completely, but without Revives/Heals that would most likely take a while.
But wouldn’t matter that you can't get thru whole thing right away, rewards will be parsed out as you can get further and further in future attempts (for your new best runs).
One you don’t mind playing over and over to see how far you can get each time. Getting progressively advancing rewards the further you get in subsequent tries.
In old video or pinball games, there was never really any “FINISH” to them, and people played them over and over.
Regarding modok labs. I don't think the labs are difficult. Only the boss seems random in terms of class. Other than that you can choose any path and we even have itemless runs with 4 stars on YouTube. Is it more difficult that the previous months? Yes. But we also need to remember that we won't get the same difficulty every month. Epic has been fluctuating for some time now. People thought of gwen pool went to to movies event and the next month was tougher than that and we had a flood of complaints. This is comparable to act 5.4 and act 6.1 difficulty.
Also, I'm the type to finish uncollected within a couple of days, so I'm part of the "problem" apparently, but I do them because of either for the completion event (which is happening right now) or because I have energy refills expiring (or both). I approach every month by getting the monthly event quest out of the way as quickly as possible so I can continue focusing on preparing for other content, such as Act 6, Variant or Abyss and also because I'd like my top champs free for AQ.
I'm pretty sure a lot of players are in the same situation as me and I doubt Kabam would alter the monthly event quest to cater to "Endgame players", which amount to very little compared to the entire player base.
I think that's a bit harsh. I don't think people like the Grandmaster because it is "easy" but rather because, as you put it, he challenges fundamental skills. More importantly, those fundamental skills are skills the game has already taught you in other parts of the content. So the Grandmaster is a way to pay off that skill progress. The Champion, on the other hand, comes out of nowhere. Not because he challenges dexing, dexing is also a fundamental skill. In fact dexing is a far more fundamental and early-learned skill than intercepting is. But because it challenges dexing in a degenerate way. No one deliberately tries to trigger dexing, they try to not get hit. Dashing back out of reach of the attack is just as successful as waiting for the last instant and then dexing. In fact, that latter is arguably stupid. There is absolutely nothing of sufficient value to be gained from doing that in any other part of the game until the Champion. And that means it throws a unique challenge from out of nowhere.
Which *itself* is not problematic if the game gives players an opportunity to learn that skill. But The Champion sits at the end of an Act 6.2 path. It isn't a particularly hard one (the easy path, anyway) but it costs sufficient energy that the only way to practice on him effectively is to spend: either on revives or on energy refills, one or the other. The proof is Infinity Thanos, who also presented out of the ordinary challenges but isn't nearly as hated as the Champion boss was. Players had the opportunity to learn how to beat him because there was less of a barrier to practice and learning, so his novelty was not considered as punishing.
People don't complain as much about the Grandmaster because a) he culminates skills rather than invents a degenerate challenge, and b) the players who reach him must be able to get past the Champion in the first place, so the fight is shielded from complaints from players who get stuck behind the Champion.
I don't think the fight is perfect in that regard, but I think it lands in approximately the right zip code.
Second- kabam creates a competition to clear content as fast as possible for rewards ...and now those are getting a hard time from others 😔.
I didn’t read the OP’s book 😉
As much as people would love to be able to use any Champ in any content with skill, that would defeat the purpose of having RNG to begin with. It would defeat the purpose of having different Champs, different Rarities, making choices based on what we have and Rank, Arena, sales (as much as people say that's the only focus), really a whole host of areas of the game. Even the motivation to progress. Why bother? Rank your choices for highest, and beat everything. As much as people would like that because it would mean no more dependency on RNG, that would be the end of the game as we know it. Champs would become completely interchangeable, save for Class, and we would become more like Pokémon. I'd give it 6 months to a year.
@DNA3000 One of the irritants in the fight is people ask you to duel and practice for the fight and I did it for weeks. The duel and the real thing are vastly different. I saw my health disappear so fast it was not even funny. Kabam should either introduce a duel target to duel the actual champion or give a low energy path so that we can practice against him. If they could make us select which links should be up, that would be even better. I can guarantee that if we had a practice run to defeat him, the complaints would reduce drastically for that fight
Do have the right counter.. wait until you grow your roster. Do a variant, play arena to earn shards and pull the champs u require and come back. We have all had to do it at some
Point in the game
not saying Champion fight is better, though. It was exhilarating, but it wasnt fun. My previous runs made me good with hood vs him.