People commenting the champion is skill based are absolutely wrong..it's not a skill fight..if it was many more would complete it and there would be less complaints. I agree many are complaining simply to complain..but that fight required skill and a huge bit of luck to get the required champion. I know 3 or 4 main people get in every post and say thats an skill based gate..but it's really not. We see the grandmaster fight done with all kinds of champion..I am yet to see the champion fight with even mid tier Champs. For me..the champion fight was good..I felt that dexing is special did not register many times..and I have seen people complain about the same thing.. If his specials were projectile based..it would make it easier. All I am seeing here is people who have completed act 6 looking down on people asking the fight to be made easier. Do I think the fight is tough? Yes.. Should it be nerfed? Only interms of removing no retreat and spite. Do I care if they nerf it? Nope. I know I will eventually explore that.
Most people consider Hood mid tier at best and I personally know multiple people who've used him to beat the champion. People have also used Loki.
Do certain champs make the fight easier? Sure but most of the champs people claim are NEEDED just aren't in reality.
Again, You NEED certain champ to do the fight. if it was really just skill based, we would be seeing Swedeah doing that fight with Kamala khan. I think you missed my main point in that it is not purely skill based. And there is no point in gating players from progressing in story mode when its not even just skill. If you want to give players will good skill and roster a challenge? Give maze every month with insane rewards. You don't stop people progressing in the main mode of the game. I would call grandmaster fight a gate, purely because as you said, it requires basic skills to progress. Champion fight does not do that. I get the point that it should not be an easy fight and it should not be done with unit man either. But the fight must end at some point. I heard a suggestion that every time you died the counter should increase and it should decrease for the dex. There must be some mechanism to make the fight possible. At its current state, its just impossible if you dont have a specific set of counters
This game is all about needing counters. As long as they aren't so specific or rare that only a handful of champs can counter a fight it's not a problem. There are lots of counters to that fight at this point.
Just bc a fight isn't 100% about skill doesn't mean it isn't skill based or BS. That's absurd. I used the do you bleed Medusa boss as an example earlier and I don't see you up in arms bc you HAVE to use specific type of champs there.
Bottom line is getting through the champion fight is more skill gated than the grandmaster which is the whole point of this current discussion. Even if you unit down the first 90% if you don't eventually learn to get 5 dexs in one fight, you never finish it. That's just not true with the GM fight
Sorry if I was not clear. But, I don't mind counters if they are a available in a wide range. Do you bleed has so many counters, not all of them good mind you but just make the fight longer. Champion boss requires a nullifying champs with either good block prof or regen during fight. Kabam are introducing more and more mystic champs that can counter him. But let's face it, rng makes it difficult to aim for champs. Dexing him 5 times is another issue altogether. I already said my dexes weren't registering sometimes, add to the fact that some champs have easier time dexing than others. I don't have a problem with the fight itself being what it is. But calling it a purely skill based is not correct. Whether it is more skilled based than GM or not is not something I can say because I have not reached that point. So, I am not going to go into that
That's not even true bc neither Loki or Hood have amazing block prof or regen and both have been used for the champion fight. It's convenient to have those things but not even slightly necessary
If you're talking initial clear. To 100% clear Loki and Hood are not counters for no retreat. Anybody can do inital clear with any mystic champion with md4 or above.
I used Hood for no retreat and 6 revives..... I think he is probably one of the better counters with his invisibility. not saying Champion fight is better, though. It was exhilarating, but it wasnt fun. My previous runs made me good with hood vs him.
I'd have to see video to confirm that. What about hood makes him a good option for no retreat? Does his invisibility make him immune to degen?
You dont need to dash back unless you have to. It is usually a good safety net. I had "good RNG" where i could use the invisibility to wait out the degen timer.
Just base your progress on what YOU can do personally... Stop watching the whales and others on YouTube that love to 'exceed' the speed limit. Just because someone can do it much faster than most, doesn't mean you have to. There are plenty that do a slower pace but you find that not as interesting but everyone has their own pace and that is OK. Everyone has their own ability to contribute the wide range of time and/or money into this game - that is also OK.
It's quite literally impossible to make all Fights "skill-based" while not requiring specific counters in one form or another. How limited and narrow those counters are is another subject. You have almost 200 Champs in the game. Eventually you have to limit what people can use to add a challenge factor. I'm not sure where the eutopian idea of using any Champ anywhere came from, but that's not feasible. That not only negates the point of havint different Champs with different Abilities, it nerfs the entire game into something that becomes really boring really fast.
Sure it is possible. They are well aware of the node combinations they use. There was full intent to limit act 6 to the top 10% of champions in the game and nobody can really deny that.
No, it's not feasible. Look throughout the game. Nodes limit what you can use. Sometimes there are many options, sometimes few. Sometimes you can use "All but....". As for Act 6, obviously the goal at the time was to create a window narrow enough for people with a very extensive Roster could go through. However, that window was too narrow, and @DNA3000 did a particularly good job of explaining how that accelerated difficulty beyond what's possible to grow into. On the subject of being able to use any Champ anywhere and still having skill, I'm afraid that's just another game. It's also a way of making the RNG completely obsolete, which is why I can see the attraction. It's just not reasonable for this particular game. Making them less narrow is possible.
No one is arguing against nodes limiting a champ. I am not going to take a gwenpool to biohazard node and complain. That would be stupid. This one specific fight has too many things going on. You need a slow debuff champ or you need a champ that can nullify very well. The champion needs to have good block prof or he needs to regen that damage back. He has to fit the evade profile or you could dash back and the dex may not register all the time. Plus you have links like spite and no retreat. All this keeps narrowing the option down to a very small number. I am not saying all champs need to be able to do it and I never agree with that statement. If every champ can do every fight, we only need to rank up 16 champs in total for the game. On a side note, weren't you complaining about Modok labs epic difficulty being too difficult? May be get to Champion boss and fight him before justifying that fight would be more reasonable. Because compared to some fights in 6.1, Modok labs is a cake walk. Just saying
The fact that I keep making the same points and people keep hearing something else astounds me. I didn't say people shouldn't complain about Act 6. Not once. Nor did I say they were wrong. I actually said I agreed from the feedback I saw that the Fights in Act 6 are too narrow. I supported what people were saying. What I did say was the idea that you can make all content based on skill while still being able to use any Champ, is not possible for the current game. I didn't say it's impossible not to limit what people use, so things are as they should be. I also didn't say that Labs were too hard. Not in those words. I said there has to be consistency. At least relative consistency. If they want to make Epic within 40k Champ range, I have no issues with that. Just do it consistently. Having it within a certain range most months and increasing it every now and then is deteimental to many people. I understand where it comes from. They want to add something for people on the higher end of the demographic. There's just too much of a range in the same one. So I'm looking forward to Road to Cav.
You mean looking for to "not doing road to cav" yet derail every thread opened about it.
I'm looking forward to consistent difficulty for the bulk of the population doing Epic. Yes.
@Worknprogress the definition of a “skill based fight” in this community is somewhat weird.
To most, a “skill based fight” is a fight that, without the right amount of skill, cannot be passed by anyone, and is a challenging fight.
To most aspiring members of this community, a “skill based fight” is one which is challenging that they can complete (the last part is the most important part lol).
I don't believe that most people believe a "skill based fight" is a fight that cannot be completed at all without some specific skill level. I believe most people believe a skill based fight is a fight that appropriately rewards skill.
Why the Grandmaster fight is celebrated? Cause he’s easy. He only tests you on 3 skills, parry/block, intercept, get hit (whether this is a “skill” or not is up for debate), which arguably are the core fundamentals on which this game is built on. Dexing specials, nope, not a core skill (even a champ like RG is introduced to block the unblockable).
I think that's a bit harsh. I don't think people like the Grandmaster because it is "easy" but rather because, as you put it, he challenges fundamental skills. More importantly, those fundamental skills are skills the game has already taught you in other parts of the content. So the Grandmaster is a way to pay off that skill progress. The Champion, on the other hand, comes out of nowhere. Not because he challenges dexing, dexing is also a fundamental skill. In fact dexing is a far more fundamental and early-learned skill than intercepting is. But because it challenges dexing in a degenerate way. No one deliberately tries to trigger dexing, they try to not get hit. Dashing back out of reach of the attack is just as successful as waiting for the last instant and then dexing. In fact, that latter is arguably stupid. There is absolutely nothing of sufficient value to be gained from doing that in any other part of the game until the Champion. And that means it throws a unique challenge from out of nowhere.
Which *itself* is not problematic if the game gives players an opportunity to learn that skill. But The Champion sits at the end of an Act 6.2 path. It isn't a particularly hard one (the easy path, anyway) but it costs sufficient energy that the only way to practice on him effectively is to spend: either on revives or on energy refills, one or the other. The proof is Infinity Thanos, who also presented out of the ordinary challenges but isn't nearly as hated as the Champion boss was. Players had the opportunity to learn how to beat him because there was less of a barrier to practice and learning, so his novelty was not considered as punishing.
People don't complain as much about the Grandmaster because a) he culminates skills rather than invents a degenerate challenge, and b) the players who reach him must be able to get past the Champion in the first place, so the fight is shielded from complaints from players who get stuck behind the Champion.
There are multiple mechanics in the game that encourage actually registering dexterity (Stark's poise charges, Red Guardians durability, invisible woman's debuffs)
There are champions that have such mechanics, but there isn't any content that requires players to learn how to do it. And in fact Sparky's relatively high skill requirements to leverage poise are, I would wager, why we're allowed to have that champion in the first place. His damage output borders on ludicrous at max poise, but I would bet real cash most players end up getting hit in the face often enough to drop below 50% or just plain die. His *average* performance is almost certainly much more reasonable, and champions are primarily balanced around average performance.
In fact, now that I think about it, a data-focused person might try to use Sparky's datamined performance numbers to actually calculate a metric for how difficult the Champion fight actually is, compared to the capabilities of the playerbase.
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In fact, now that I think about it, a data-focused person might try to use Sparky's datamined performance numbers to actually calculate a metric for how difficult the Champion fight actually is, compared to the capabilities of the playerbase.