Obviously some people are not following all of my comments and instead cherry picking out-of-context comments to react to. I had said more than once that I did power through Void using “any champ”. It really was a bad time, costing some revives. After some contemplation, I narrowed down the less stressful solutions to debuff avoiders. These were Blade, Aegon, and Elsa Bloodstone. Well, I don’t have them at 5/65. I don’t even have Aegon. This began my annoyance that the fight is a complete POS unless you happen to have these. I decided that it’s really no different than issues with 6.2.6. After a year of debate on that, Kabam finally agrees. Probably you on this thread are the only type complaining about the nerf. What they did is open up the fight to more champs, which was an excellent idea.
The Champion fight in 6.2.6 can be done with ANY champ. Literally any of them. Stop using that fight as a reference. It's just not true at all.
Did YOU did the fight with any champ? Yes it can be done with any champ at beta servers by extremely skilled players. How many of the players used the ANY champs on their basic clearance? Cause more than 99% of the the players used one of the around ten champs that were realistic counters for the fight. Your statement is not true at all.
Obviously some people are not following all of my comments and instead cherry picking out-of-context comments to react to. I had said more than once that I did power through Void using “any champ”. It really was a bad time, costing some revives. After some contemplation, I narrowed down the less stressful solutions to debuff avoiders. These were Blade, Aegon, and Elsa Bloodstone. Well, I don’t have them at 5/65. I don’t even have Aegon. This began my annoyance that the fight is a complete POS unless you happen to have these. I decided that it’s really no different than issues with 6.2.6. After a year of debate on that, Kabam finally agrees. Probably you on this thread are the only type complaining about the nerf. What they did is open up the fight to more champs, which was an excellent idea.
The Champion fight in 6.2.6 can be done with ANY champ. Literally any of them. Stop using that fight as a reference. It's just not true at all.
Did YOU did the fight with any champ? Yes it can be done with any champ at beta servers by extremely skilled players. How many of the players used the ANY champs on their basic clearance? Cause more than 99% of the the players used one of the around ten champs that were realistic counters for the fight. Your statement is not true at all.
Not wanting to use any champ doesn't make it not true. It's 100% true that The Champion boss can be done by any champion in the game. Should it be? No. Just because it's not a good idea, doesn't make it any less true.
And no, I didn't do that fight with just any old champ. I'm not skilled enough. I happily admit that. I had the counters for that fight already but didn't do it right away because I didn't have the resources and units.
Yeah, all the mcoc gods talking like the bosses are meh this and that. Well keep the opinions to yourselves. Non of the bosses are easy. I was putting my hope on void, which unfortunately turned out to be another parasites for resources and time. It's ridiculous that I can't even beat epic boss void. And potion and units are not worth spending compared to rewards.
You are taking on content you don't have the champs, skills, or time playing. This is the downside of making 5*s and some resources more available to newer players. Newer like 1 years or less.
I can do 5/7 days without issue. That was never the point. I’m not looking for advice on getting these quests done. I just don’t like the message that the quests are sending. The issue is that I expect to be needing an Aegon or Human Torch in the future to succeed in Cavalier, and I shouldn’t have to be pulling those specific champs. I feel like I may never even pull them.
As for skill, I just took down Herald Air-Walker with a 5* R3 BWCV on my alt. I didn’t comment in this thread to discuss how good anyone is. This was intended to be about node design and the highly limited counters of the Herald experiment. It is 6.2.6 all over again.
I don’t see how anyone can support the old 6.2.6 design. The argument that ANY champ can do it is ignoring the fact that it might cost 10,000 units to do it with some of the champs. Only a handful could do it well for cheap. Nobody enjoyed this aspect of the game. I don’t know why the Act 6 attack values are getting nerfed. That’s not the kind of thing I would ask for. I just don’t want to have to pull CAIW, Doom, or SS to be able to reasonably defeat a Boss. Obviously, I finally pulled 6* Doom and used him. Lucky me I guess, at least this round.
Where is the OP anyway? I only vaguely agree with his title. I originally had said that the Void fight was poorly designed and added that the Doom fight is more poorly designed. Thing and Void barely work against him. In all of this, nobody has proposed the slightest bit of reasonable support about how these fights were not poorly designed. Conclusion: obviously poorly designed.
Let’s agree to disagree. My texting fingers are starting to hurt.
I can do 5/7 days without issue. That was never the point. I’m not looking for advice on getting these quests done. I just don’t like the message that the quests are sending. The issue is that I expect to be needing an Aegon or Human Torch in the future to succeed in Cavalier, and I shouldn’t have to be pulling those specific champs. I feel like I may never even pull them.
As for skill, I just took down Herald Air-Walker with a 5* R3 BWCV on my alt. I didn’t comment in this thread to discuss how good anyone is. This was intended to be about node design and the highly limited counters of the Herald experiment. It is 6.2.6 all over again.
I don’t see how anyone can support the old 6.2.6 design. The argument that ANY champ can do it is ignoring the fact that it might cost 10,000 units to do it with some of the champs. Only a handful could do it well for cheap. Nobody enjoyed this aspect of the game. I don’t know why the Act 6 attack values are getting nerfed. That’s not the kind of thing I would ask for. I just don’t want to have to pull CAIW, Doom, or SS to be able to reasonably defeat a Boss. Obviously, I finally pulled 6* Doom and used him. Lucky me I guess, at least this round.
Literally none of the fights in Herald difficulties have been on the level of the old 6.2.6 champion fight. none of them. Not a single one. They aren’t even as bad as some 6.3 and 6.4 node combinations.
Where is the OP anyway? I only vaguely agree with his title. I originally had said that the Void fight was poorly designed and added that the Doom fight is more poorly designed. Thing and Void barely work against him. In all of this, nobody has proposed the slightest bit of reasonable support about how these fights were not poorly designed. Conclusion: obviously poorly designed.
Let’s agree to disagree. My texting fingers are starting to hurt.
Actually you originally complained about the Void fight being poorly designed, but then blamed this on a feature of the fight that didn't actually exist. And while people can make memory errors, you didn't really back down, you doubled down and didn't even revise your original complaint and also claimed that fights like Void and Doom were designed for "just two or three" champions, but have never actually specified what this short list of champions is. I can't even think of what those would be for Void. The best strategy for Void for people who don't have optimal counters seems to me to be just don't die on the path to him, and use *literally* any high damage skill champion where you play with mix master for as long as you can and then go ham on him with specials and wear him down with your entire team. Sure, soloing him isn't easy, but chopping him down with a bunch of champs isn't as hard.
Saying the fights are "poorly designed" is not the same thing as saying they are too difficult, They may, or may not be too difficult for the Herald target audience, but honestly the biggest problem with the Void fight is - in direct contrast to your notion that Kabam should just be scaling the fights up numerically - attack is probably too high when combined with mix master and void's own intimidating presence debuffs.
Kabam *should* be experimenting with more skill-oriented nodes like Mix Master and going away from cranking up attack and health numbers. That was the almost universal complaint about Act 6 (especially 6.3 and 6.4) and Book 2. And the Void was really cranked up: he had 14664 attack, which is both because he had +300% attack (and health) and because he's a 5/60 6*. That more than anything else makes the fight borderline ridiculous.
So I think it is really, really important that however much they stumble at times, Kabam continues to explore difficulty through node effects and not, as you suggest, difficulty through scaling numbers up. Because we can teach players how to deal with Mix Master. We can't teach them how to deal with 400% attack and higher. I think Void wasn't poorly designed, I think his numbers were cranked too high, and anyone saying Void is proof the nodes are a problem and we should go back to cranking numbers up instead is a much bigger threat to the long term health of the game and the majority of the players who play the game than an OP Void boss in content most players aren't supposed to be playing yet anyway.
Yeah, all the mcoc gods talking like the bosses are meh this and that. Well keep the opinions to yourselves. Non of the bosses are easy. I was putting my hope on void, which unfortunately turned out to be another parasites for resources and time. It's ridiculous that I can't even beat epic boss void. And potion and units are not worth spending compared to rewards.
This resources vs rewards comment peaked my interest. At 40 units per revive, you can purchase 25 40% revives for 1,000 units. Let’s just say you use these revives to complete only half of the shard days. You just can’t do anymore. It remember correctly, you can get something like 10,000 6* shards if you complete every shard day, yes?
So, not considering the other rewards you get each time, would you not pay 1,000 units for 5,000 6* shards?
I feel like this is an extremely worthwhile deal. Considering all aspects and effort.
I’m all for higher difficulty’s but the Jump from Canadian to herald was a bit insane. I was hoping herald would be more like Canadian but oh man it’s so much worse
Canadian was too easy, even this is likely going to be the level of difficulty of chapter 2 of the upcoming cavalier difficulty.
I don’t know why the Act 6 attack values are getting nerfed.
Congratulations, you’ve just shown everyone how little you know about the game, Because they were absurd, where is the fun when everything is just 30k attack, 600k hp and a few basic nodes? The answer is it isn’t. You just pick your choice of ghost, nick fury, Aegon etc and slowly, chip away and hope you don’t take a blocked hit because with that attack value, you’re only taking a few blocked hits. I’m assuming you’ve not ventured past 6.1 with this deluded idea that stupid high attack values are ok. But I can assure you, stupid high attack values with just a few minor nodes are far more limiting than the herald difficulty nodes.
This difficulty is probably about right for the rewards and actually offers a fair challenge.
But it does require deeper roster than I see a lot of people Talking about, which again is fine. (I have 100% act 6 Nb. Don’t agree with huge nerf on attack values either) and this type of content is more interactive and welcome to keep interest up.
We need to remove for ‘end game’ content people have 25+ r5 champs, 10+ r2 and 4/4 r3 6*. So anyone struggling that is running with 1/2 r5 and a few r4 champs please remember this
I don’t know why the Act 6 attack values are getting nerfed.
Congratulations, you’ve just shown everyone how little you know about the game, Because they were absurd, where is the fun when everything is just 30k attack, 600k hp and a few basic nodes? The answer is it isn’t. You just pick your choice of ghost, nick fury, Aegon etc and slowly, chip away and hope you don’t take a blocked hit because with that attack value, you’re only taking a few blocked hits. I’m assuming you’ve not ventured past 6.1 with this deluded idea that stupid high attack values are ok. But I can assure you, stupid high attack values with just a few minor nodes are far more limiting than the herald difficulty nodes.
Yes, and act 6.3 and 6.4 have stupid attack values combined with some awful node and champ combinations making ghost and quake the only options if you want to do it with less items.
I’m all for higher difficulty’s but the Jump from Canadian to herald was a bit insane. I was hoping herald would be more like Canadian but oh man it’s so much worse
Canadian was too easy, even this is likely going to be the level of difficulty of chapter 2 of the upcoming cavalier difficulty.
This us going to lead to unreasonable expectations of what cavalier will be like so I completely agree. Canadian by no means is the challenge they described. Even me, with my non endgame roster has breezed through Canadian and Herald thus far. I'm afraid of the number of threads we will see next month when Cavalier scales even higher.
Exactly, I have beat the grandmaster 1 time, but I’ve only explored 6.1, tried to explore some other quests but found I didn’t quite have the required roster depth so I left it. As far as I’m concerned, i should not be able to explore cavalier next month, but if the difficulty is like this, I could do it, might take a couple restarts or revives depending on the nodes of course but I could explore cavalier if it’s like this.
I don’t think it’s anywhere near as bad as mbrace is making out but I do have some sympathy for the narrow counter viewpoint.
It is a direction kabam said they would move away from, I’m looking at the sinister fight here as an example though rather than the champion. I’ve luckily had counters to that one but it’s a constant roadblock in my alliances for people with fairly well developed rosters that otherwise easily have the skill to take him down. Hopefully even if things stay as is the new class crystals help out a bit in that respect.
I’ve only played the shard days of herald as I want the generic stones, aarkus and doom both feel fairly narrow in pure counters to me, though I could be wrong, not thought about it too hard thus far.
The shock on doom for eg from dexing (was using champs otherwise buff free like torch or void) was what killed me almost every time. I can think of duped capiw and RG being good pure counters for that fight, who else can keep up the damage and reliably avoid the shock?
I think what is compounding the frustrations for some people is the format of the quest. In a normal cav eq you will be able to exit, run the quest again and explore counters or fight tactics without missing out on rewards, just at the cost of energy. Personally that’s how I prefer to run content rather than spending through with units or resources, as you learn something to take forwards. This side quest pressures (not forces) you into doing whatever it takes finish the quest as you otherwise lose those rewards you've committed to earning and can’t re-enter.
For those getting frustrated maybe keep that in mind.
Maybe Herald difficulty is supposed to be hard or it is poorly designed, idk. But you can do this: Save those planet thingy, pick the easiest boss and do it over and over against that boss and collect you rewards. Problem solved.
As for me, Aarkus and Sinister are too hard because i don't have any high ranked Mystic and Tech champions. Doom is hard too because i don't have HT.
But, Mysterio and Mole-man are quite easy, and i have a feeling i can beat Void too (I didn't do it last week because of works, so i'm not sure), so it's enough for me. I can choose between catalysts or shards as reward. And let's say i was wrong and Void is too damn hard. It's ok too, look at the bright side i'll collect tons of T5BC fragments this month.
Yes they are difficult fights. They are supposed to be. It’s the hardest difficulty for a reason.
I’ve completed all three shard days without using a single revive. I have good counters for every day and I use 5/65 only.
Find the day that is the easiest for you and just do that day. If you don’t have any “easier” day then your roster isn’t developed enough for Herald. That’s why there are other difficulties.
I really hate sounding like this, but sounds like you’re not ready for it yet. Cavalier difficulty isn’t going anywhere. Keep building your roster and eventually you’ll be able to do it every month without using resources.
I do suggest doing Epic this month since the entry tickets (whatever they are called) are limited and you don’t want to be wasting them.
I simply am not talking to big picture people. I’m sure that there are IQ issues here. You are incapable of recognizing that larger problems are almost always the accumulation of smaller problems that went unchecked. I protest at least 2 of the boss fights for Herald, because any one of these fights represents a pattern that should not be repeated. What it really means is that Cavalier is bound to contain fights that only one or two champs could get through, and this is really going to annoy people. Some may want to quit over it in frustration that their crystal pulls have not favored them.
My issue is not skill, nor having enough ranked champs, nor being able to understand the nodes. You guys deviated to all those things in ignoring the key issue. None of them change the fact that one cannot defeat Herald Doctor Doom or Void without using revives, unless they have a ranked up champ from a very short list of viable counters. So instead of me opening another 300 crystals with hopes of getting HT, why doesn’t Kabam just not design fights this way?
But what other solution is there? We already know that increasing PI ain't gonna work, and you're saying that nodes are too restrictive, so what do you propose?
Finally someone with some sense. I am proposing the standard PI increase of course, 50-100% or so. As for nodes, if the Epic boss was a bit of a challenge for uncollected players and lacked masochism, add masochism and maybe crumbling armor. These are just examples, not a formula. Maybe add biohazard and short list to 30 or so bleed immune champs or whatever. It’s not an exact science. Standard nodes and PI should be enough to set Cavalier apart though. What I saw in some fights in Herald was a combination of contradictory nodes that were such a pain to together, or went so poorly with the boss’s natural skill set, that you had to shut one of them down. So few champs can just shut down trouble nodes. It is usually the most elite “Beyond God Tier” champs that you need. I’d like to see “Demi-God Tier” champs be able to handle more content, so long as you have then ranked sufficiently and can play well. Champs need upgrades and not all to the highest tier. I think that this would be pleasing to most players, and they can focus on ranking good champs that they like. FYI, that’s sort of what I’ve been doing, but some of them just don’t cut it in this Herald business. It’s sad and a waste of materials, or for now seems that way.
I’ll admit, I like Hulkbuster after the buff. He’s fun and hits hard. I took him to 5/65, and he is a powerhouse. He is totally useless on any Herald boss. Should I have done Warlock instead? Maybe, but I can’t stand playing him for various reasons. If had to rank him by necessity, then damn, I don’t like this game. Force rank sucks.
I don’t think it’s anywhere near as bad as mbrace is making out but I do have some sympathy for the narrow counter viewpoint.
It is a direction kabam said they would move away from, I’m looking at the sinister fight here as an example though rather than the champion. I’ve luckily had counters to that one but it’s a constant roadblock in my alliances for people with fairly well developed rosters that otherwise easily have the skill to take him down. Hopefully even if things stay as is the new class crystals help out a bit in that respect.
I’ve only played the shard days of herald as I want the generic stones, aarkus and doom both feel fairly narrow in pure counters to me, though I could be wrong, not thought about it too hard thus far.
The shock on doom for eg from dexing (was using champs otherwise buff free like torch or void) was what killed me almost every time. I can think of duped capiw and RG being good pure counters for that fight, who else can keep up the damage and reliably avoid the shock?
I think what is compounding the frustrations for some people is the format of the quest. In a normal cav eq you will be able to exit, run the quest again and explore counters or fight tactics without missing out on rewards, just at the cost of energy. Personally that’s how I prefer to run content rather than spending through with units or resources, as you learn something to take forwards. This side quest pressures (not forces) you into doing whatever it takes finish the quest as you otherwise lose those rewards you've committed to earning and can’t re-enter.
For those getting frustrated maybe keep that in mind.
But, any champ with a slow or petrify also work against Doom. She hulk, spidergwen, stealth spidey, Sorceror supreme, Mr. Fantastic synergy. I admit, it is a short list if champs, but they work on Doom. I admit, I did not try Doom day, but unless something prevents you from applying debuffs, they should work. Right?
Comments
Yes it can be done with any champ at beta servers by extremely skilled players.
How many of the players used the ANY champs on their basic clearance? Cause more than 99% of the the players used one of the around ten champs that were realistic counters for the fight.
Your statement is not true at all.
And no, I didn't do that fight with just any old champ. I'm not skilled enough. I happily admit that. I had the counters for that fight already but didn't do it right away because I didn't have the resources and units.
As for skill, I just took down Herald Air-Walker with a 5* R3 BWCV on my alt. I didn’t comment in this thread to discuss how good anyone is. This was intended to be about node design and the highly limited counters of the Herald experiment. It is 6.2.6 all over again.
I don’t see how anyone can support the old 6.2.6 design. The argument that ANY champ can do it is ignoring the fact that it might cost 10,000 units to do it with some of the champs. Only a handful could do it well for cheap. Nobody enjoyed this aspect of the game. I don’t know why the Act 6 attack values are getting nerfed. That’s not the kind of thing I would ask for. I just don’t want to have to pull CAIW, Doom, or SS to be able to reasonably defeat a Boss. Obviously, I finally pulled 6* Doom and used him. Lucky me I guess, at least this round.
Let’s agree to disagree. My texting fingers are starting to hurt.
Saying the fights are "poorly designed" is not the same thing as saying they are too difficult, They may, or may not be too difficult for the Herald target audience, but honestly the biggest problem with the Void fight is - in direct contrast to your notion that Kabam should just be scaling the fights up numerically - attack is probably too high when combined with mix master and void's own intimidating presence debuffs.
Kabam *should* be experimenting with more skill-oriented nodes like Mix Master and going away from cranking up attack and health numbers. That was the almost universal complaint about Act 6 (especially 6.3 and 6.4) and Book 2. And the Void was really cranked up: he had 14664 attack, which is both because he had +300% attack (and health) and because he's a 5/60 6*. That more than anything else makes the fight borderline ridiculous.
So I think it is really, really important that however much they stumble at times, Kabam continues to explore difficulty through node effects and not, as you suggest, difficulty through scaling numbers up. Because we can teach players how to deal with Mix Master. We can't teach them how to deal with 400% attack and higher. I think Void wasn't poorly designed, I think his numbers were cranked too high, and anyone saying Void is proof the nodes are a problem and we should go back to cranking numbers up instead is a much bigger threat to the long term health of the game and the majority of the players who play the game than an OP Void boss in content most players aren't supposed to be playing yet anyway.
So, not considering the other rewards you get each time, would you not pay 1,000 units for 5,000 6* shards?
I feel like this is an extremely worthwhile deal. Considering all aspects and effort.
No?
I’m assuming you’ve not ventured past 6.1 with this deluded idea that stupid high attack values are ok. But I can assure you, stupid high attack values with just a few minor nodes are far more limiting than the herald difficulty nodes.
But it does require deeper roster than I see a lot of people
Talking about, which again is fine. (I have 100% act 6 Nb. Don’t agree with huge nerf on attack values either) and this type of content is more interactive and welcome to keep interest up.
We need to remove for ‘end game’ content people have 25+ r5 champs, 10+ r2 and 4/4 r3 6*. So anyone struggling that is running with 1/2 r5 and a few r4 champs please remember this
It is a direction kabam said they would move away from, I’m looking at the sinister fight here as an example though rather than the champion. I’ve luckily had counters to that one but it’s a constant roadblock in my alliances for people with fairly well developed rosters that otherwise easily have the skill to take him down. Hopefully even if things stay as is the new class crystals help out a bit in that respect.
I’ve only played the shard days of herald as I want the generic stones, aarkus and doom both feel fairly narrow in pure counters to me, though I could be wrong, not thought about it too hard thus far.
The shock on doom for eg from dexing (was using champs otherwise buff free like torch or void) was what killed me almost every time. I can think of duped capiw and RG being good pure counters for that fight, who else can keep up the damage and reliably avoid the shock?
I think what is compounding the frustrations for some people is the format of the quest. In a normal cav eq you will be able to exit, run the quest again and explore counters or fight tactics without missing out on rewards, just at the cost of energy. Personally that’s how I prefer to run content rather than spending through with units or resources, as you learn something to take forwards. This side quest pressures (not forces) you into doing whatever it takes finish the quest as you otherwise lose those rewards you've committed to earning and can’t re-enter.
For those getting frustrated maybe keep that in mind.
Save those planet thingy, pick the easiest boss and do it over and over against that boss and collect you rewards. Problem solved.
As for me, Aarkus and Sinister are too hard because i don't have any high ranked Mystic and Tech champions.
Doom is hard too because i don't have HT.
But, Mysterio and Mole-man are quite easy, and i have a feeling i can beat Void too (I didn't do it last week because of works, so i'm not sure), so it's enough for me. I can choose between catalysts or shards as reward.
And let's say i was wrong and Void is too damn hard. It's ok too, look at the bright side i'll collect tons of T5BC fragments this month.
I’ve completed all three shard days without using a single revive. I have good counters for every day and I use 5/65 only.
Find the day that is the easiest for you and just do that day.
If you don’t have any “easier” day then your roster isn’t developed enough for Herald. That’s why there are other difficulties.
I really hate sounding like this, but sounds like you’re not ready for it yet.
Cavalier difficulty isn’t going anywhere. Keep building your roster and eventually you’ll be able to do it every month without using resources.
I do suggest doing Epic this month since the entry tickets (whatever they are called) are limited and you don’t want to be wasting them.
I’ll admit, I like Hulkbuster after the buff. He’s fun and hits hard. I took him to 5/65, and he is a powerhouse. He is totally useless on any Herald boss. Should I have done Warlock instead? Maybe, but I can’t stand playing him for various reasons. If had to rank him by necessity, then damn, I don’t like this game. Force rank sucks.