Show Up Difficulty Feedback [Title Edited for Clarity]

Lovejoy72

I mean, even my kids accounts can take this fight down now, and get the gold (always short on accounts like theirs). The reduction in health alone means I’ve already beaten this guy several times over. I guess that’s good? Does feel a LITTLE like the babies got their bottle. But I never actually beat it at the current difficulty either (wasn’t about to use revives).

QuikPik

The problem with the event in it's initial form is the niche counters required. I have almost all champs in 4* form but I haven't ranked one past R3 in years. I'm not about to waste 8 T4B on a 4* for a single event for 3k 5* shards. They are far too precious a resource for 5 and 6*. And who knows what counters would have to be ranked for the next 2 events.

Soobe

Cash grab .

LeNoirFaineant

Soobe said:

Cash grab .

Love these cash grabs that don't grab any cash...

DNA3000

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

KDSuperFlash10

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

Just out or curiosity, have you ever not written an essay on the forums

DNA3000

Gmail12345 said:

The “show up “ should be any * champ and if you do it with a 4* only team then you get an epic title “ I showed up” doesn’t cost kabam anything and gives something different to have.

The "Show Up" should have been a calendar. Show up, get rewards.

The content should have been called "Show Up and Fight Content Just As Challenging As The Show Down But With More Champs Same Rarity For Rewards We're Going To Call Epic In The Marketing But Are Token Rewards Designed To Not Pressure Players Into Spending On The Content Because We're Taking A Break From Being Greedy Bastards This Week And By The Way You're Likely To Fail Unless You're Really Good At Playing The Game And Willing To Rank Up Four Star Champs."

RogerRabs

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.

Dshu

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

I agree with you on this challenge. The only issue I saw with it was the resources needed to rank up champs they gated from end game content. I would rather see them lower the opponent to a boosted 4* and limit champs used to 3*s. They are much cheaper to rank for a fun challenge and don't share the same rankup resources as 4*s. This would also open up more options for smaller accounts who are still searching for 4*s.

DNA3000

KDSuperFlash10 said:

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

Just out or curiosity, have you ever not written an essay on the forums

There are times I do
When I think less would be fine
Or to make a point

Lormif

RogerRabs said:

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.

A background in game design is not needed. Understanding that "everyone can participate" does not mean "everyone can win without work" is not a matter of a background in game design, it is really just a matter of taking a sentence and reading it as it is without adding massive assumptions. The problem is we as a society have an issue that we look at things, and we dont read them as they are stated, but add our own context and then refuse to see that it is not what is being stated, and demand that what was stated be changed to meet the definition of the person making the assumption. That is what happened here.

Jaded

Lormif said:

RogerRabs said:

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.

A background in game design is not needed. Understanding that "everyone can participate" does not mean "everyone can win without work" is not a matter of a background in game design, it is really just a matter of taking a sentence and reading it as it is without adding massive assumptions. The problem is we as a society have an issue that we look at things, and we dont read them as they are stated, but add our own context and then refuse to see that it is not what is being stated, and demand that what was stated be changed to meet the definition of the person making the assumption. That is what happened here.

It isn’t, that is just an explanation of why you’re arguing. 👍

Demonzfyre

KDSuperFlash10 said:

@Kabam Miike just wanted to pop in here and tell you how much I appreciate the changes you made to show up difficulty. This is a really, really good sign. You made a change the day after it came out after listening to community. That I appreciate. The fight will still be a challenge with all the nodes and health pool, but at least now it will be a fair fight. Cheers!

No it won't. You can use 5 and 6*'s now. This isn't anything different than a ROL fight against Winter Solider. If 5000% HP increase was 1.4 mil, that takes him below 500k. This will be a walk in the park with a R3 5* Mephisto even. There is NO challenge left to this.

gohard123

Demonzfyre said:

KDSuperFlash10 said:

@Kabam Miike just wanted to pop in here and tell you how much I appreciate the changes you made to show up difficulty. This is a really, really good sign. You made a change the day after it came out after listening to community. That I appreciate. The fight will still be a challenge with all the nodes and health pool, but at least now it will be a fair fight. Cheers!

No it won't. You can use 5 and 6*'s now. This isn't anything different than a ROL fight against Winter Solider. If 5000% HP increase was 1.4 mil, that takes him below 500k. This will be a walk in the park with a R3 5* Mephisto even. There is NO challenge left to this.

But showup isnt the challenge though. Show up difficulty doesnt appear in the leaderboard and it is not competitive in anyway. Showdown is the challenge

DNA3000

RogerRabs said:

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.

You can read that intention into the announcement, but it isn't there. The announcement says:

Participate for EPIC rewards! Show Up and fight the Bosses for fun!

If you’re not ready for the Showdown, feel free to try the Show Up Difficulty, which is open to all our Summoners, no matter their progression or level! This difficulty is just like the Showdown Difficulty with some key differences.

You will be able to bring in a team of five Champions with the ability to use boosts and consumables. Scores completed in this difficulty will not be entered into the leaderboard and/or the official Summoner Showdown Tournament. We encourage all our Summoners to use the Show Up Difficulty to challenge themselves, and rake in some EPIC quest completion rewards.

It literally says the difficulty will be the same as the showdown "with some key differences" that they explicitly state: you can bring a team of five instead of being limited to one, and you can use potions and boosts.

Now, it does say that it is *open* to all summoners, but it is completely unfair to knock them for that, when we also knock them for gating content that we think should be open to players "based on skill." If you see "open to all" and you immediately jump the conclusion the content will be designed to be appropriate to you personally, I think that's on you. You can't cherry pick that statement away from the "just like the showdown" part.

Tell me what part of that requires a game design degree to parse. You claim its unfair to say we need long-winded disclaimers, but the announcement states plainly that the difficulty will be just like showdown but with the exceptions listed. That's the most straight forward and completely unambiguous way of saying that. If you think I'm being unfair, then please state how you would say that showup will have the same difficulty as showdown except for the differences listed, that doesn't have lots of extra disclaimers. What was the point of confusion that you think you can make more clear without being extra verbose.

And sure, you can predict mass outrage, but I always predict mass outrage when difficult content is launched. There was mass outrage when Uncollected was launched. I'm predicting mass outrage when Cavalier launches. I'm pretty sure there's going to be mass outrage when the Omega Boss Rush launches. There was just as much mass outrage when Infinity Thanos was released. Was the mass outrage valid in that case, and all previous high difficulty cases? Is it going to be again when Cav releases?

DNA3000

Dshu said:

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

I agree with you on this challenge. The only issue I saw with it was the resources needed to rank up champs they gated from end game content. I would rather see them lower the opponent to a boosted 4* and limit champs used to 3*s. They are much cheaper to rank for a fun challenge and don't share the same rankup resources as 4*s. This would also open up more options for smaller accounts who are still searching for 4*s.

If there's one game mechanical feature I wish the game possessed when it comes to content like this, it is the "autolevel" feature many MMOs have, where if you enter content much higher or much lower than you are the game "levels you" temporarily to that level. If players could bring their 5* champs into content like this but the game autoleveled them down to 5/50s, I think that would in most cases be a good thing.

This would preserve one element I think the devs want to keep, namely searching your roster for the best option available rather than everyone just automatically using the same options, but eliminate the need to rank up (or down) champs to the appropriate challenge level. It would, however, mean you couldn't "outlevel" such content, because you would just get autoleveled back down if you tried to use higher champs. For this content that's not an issue, but it could be in other content.

Demonzfyre

gohard123 said:

Demonzfyre said:

KDSuperFlash10 said:

@Kabam Miike just wanted to pop in here and tell you how much I appreciate the changes you made to show up difficulty. This is a really, really good sign. You made a change the day after it came out after listening to community. That I appreciate. The fight will still be a challenge with all the nodes and health pool, but at least now it will be a fair fight. Cheers!

No it won't. You can use 5 and 6*'s now. This isn't anything different than a ROL fight against Winter Solider. If 5000% HP increase was 1.4 mil, that takes him below 500k. This will be a walk in the park with a R3 5* Mephisto even. There is NO challenge left to this.

But showup isnt the challenge though. Show up difficulty doesnt appear in the leaderboard and it is not competitive in anyway. Showdown is the challenge

They both were a challenge. They only did the other one because the main tournament had many restrictions. They should have kept it to just showdown.

DNA3000

gohard123 said:

Demonzfyre said:

KDSuperFlash10 said:

@Kabam Miike just wanted to pop in here and tell you how much I appreciate the changes you made to show up difficulty. This is a really, really good sign. You made a change the day after it came out after listening to community. That I appreciate. The fight will still be a challenge with all the nodes and health pool, but at least now it will be a fair fight. Cheers!

No it won't. You can use 5 and 6*'s now. This isn't anything different than a ROL fight against Winter Solider. If 5000% HP increase was 1.4 mil, that takes him below 500k. This will be a walk in the park with a R3 5* Mephisto even. There is NO challenge left to this.

But showup isnt the challenge though. Show up difficulty doesnt appear in the leaderboard and it is not competitive in anyway. Showdown is the challenge

"We encourage all our Summoners to use the Show Up Difficulty to challenge themselves"

Showdown was the competition. Showup was the open challenge.

Moot4Life

DNA3000 said:

RogerRabs said:

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

I feel like they had a chance to accommodate both the challenge seekers and the more casual players. In fact that seemed like the main reason why they created the second difficulty. If that wasn't their intention, I don't think it's fair to say people need a "long-winded semantic disclaimer" to understand. Not everyone has a background in game design that you seem to have and things that appear like obvious markers to you fly over the average players head.

This reaction was also entirely predictable. As soon as I saw 1.4m health with the node combination I knew there would be mass outrage.

You can read that intention into the announcement, but it isn't there. The announcement says:

Participate for EPIC rewards! Show Up and fight the Bosses for fun!

If you’re not ready for the Showdown, feel free to try the Show Up Difficulty, which is open to all our Summoners, no matter their progression or level! This difficulty is just like the Showdown Difficulty with some key differences.

You will be able to bring in a team of five Champions with the ability to use boosts and consumables. Scores completed in this difficulty will not be entered into the leaderboard and/or the official Summoner Showdown Tournament. We encourage all our Summoners to use the Show Up Difficulty to challenge themselves, and rake in some EPIC quest completion rewards.

It literally says the difficulty will be the same as the showdown "with some key differences" that they explicitly state: you can bring a team of five instead of being limited to one, and you can use potions and boosts.

Now, it does say that it is *open* to all summoners, but it is completely unfair to knock them for that, when we also knock them for gating content that we think should be open to players "based on skill." If you see "open to all" and you immediately jump the conclusion the content will be designed to be appropriate to you personally, I think that's on you. You can't cherry pick that statement away from the "just like the showdown" part.

Tell me what part of that requires a game design degree to parse. You claim its unfair to say we need long-winded disclaimers, but the announcement states plainly that the difficulty will be just like showdown but with the exceptions listed. That's the most straight forward and completely unambiguous way of saying that. If you think I'm being unfair, then please state how you would say that showup will have the same difficulty as showdown except for the differences listed, that doesn't have lots of extra disclaimers. What was the point of confusion that you think you can make more clear without being extra verbose.

And sure, you can predict mass outrage, but I always predict mass outrage when difficult content is launched. There was mass outrage when Uncollected was launched. I'm predicting mass outrage when Cavalier launches. I'm pretty sure there's going to be mass outrage when the Omega Boss Rush launches. There was just as much mass outrage when Infinity Thanos was released. Was the mass outrage valid in that case, and all previous high difficulty cases? Is it going to be again when Cav releases?

this is what it says:

SHOW UP DIFFICULTY
Participate for EPIC rewards! Show Up and fight the Bosses for fun!

If you’re not ready for the Showdown, feel free to try the Show Up Difficulty, which is open to all our Summoners, no matter their progression or level! This difficulty is just like the Showdown Difficulty with some key differences.

You will be able to bring in a team of five Champions with the ability to use boosts and consumables. Scores completed in this difficulty will not be entered into the leaderboard and/or the official Summoner Showdown Tournament. We encourage all our Summoners to use the Show Up Difficulty to challenge themselves, and rake in some EPIC quest completion rewards.

SHOW UP DIFFICULTY REWARDS
Week 1 (Defeat Silver Surfer): 500,000 Gold & 3000 5-Star Crystal Shards

Week 2 (Defeat Captain Marvel): 500,000 Gold & 3000 5-Star Crystal Shards

Week 3 (Defeat Iron Man (Infinity War)): 500,000 Gold & 3000 5-Star Crystal Shards

Act Completion (Defeat all of the Bosses): 500,000 Gold & 6000 5-Star Crystal Shards

i think there was a misunderstanding considering they put epic in all caps in the title, epic quest completion rewards, and the word "fun".
people may have skimmed past the key differences part but to me i thought there would be more actual key differences or at least better rewards for 1.4 mil ss. thats just me though.!

MattMan

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC

DNA3000

Demonzfyre said:

KDSuperFlash10 said:

@Kabam Miike just wanted to pop in here and tell you how much I appreciate the changes you made to show up difficulty. This is a really, really good sign. You made a change the day after it came out after listening to community. That I appreciate. The fight will still be a challenge with all the nodes and health pool, but at least now it will be a fair fight. Cheers!

No it won't. You can use 5 and 6*'s now. This isn't anything different than a ROL fight against Winter Solider. If 5000% HP increase was 1.4 mil, that takes him below 500k. This will be a walk in the park with a R3 5* Mephisto even. There is NO challenge left to this.

Just for the record, the change is reducing the +4000% health to +1000%. There is a +300% champion boost also, so the Surfer you're fighting has +4300% health total, or 44x normal health. So his 1398276 health in the fight should be 1398276/44 = 31779 base health, and with the +1000% health and +300% champion boost that would be 31779 x 14 = 444906 health.

So he should end up being 444,906 after the nerf.

Demonzfyre

MattMan said:

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC

500k gold for 1 fight. Gold is a bottleneck right? No one has gold, that's your epic reward. Everyone forget that already?

Moot4Life

Demonzfyre said:

MattMan said:

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC

500k gold for 1 fight. Gold is a bottleneck right? No one has gold, that's your epic reward. Everyone forget that already?

im pretty sure it would be faster to grind arena for 1.4 million health (for general populace, if you can solo it then it would be better to do this i think)

DNA3000

MattMan said:

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC

It also says participate for epic rewards. It doesn't say you have to win the fight. So I guess that promise for epic rewards is also a promise for rewards just for participating.

H3t3r

DNA3000 said:

Dshu said:

DNA3000 said:

will-o-wisp said:

Djin said:

will-o-wisp said:

So, for the next week bosses, can we make them a little bit harder and challenging?

Like, make Captain Marvel immune to the damage back from mystic champions. And IW IM should have some healing abilities, so that we need to outdamage it.

Just some ideas. Don't make them as easier as this silver surfer was

Also increase the rewards.

I wouldn't mind that.
Or just completely remove them so that there are no complaints. Players would focus more on the challenge itself rather than any rewards

It is sad, and it wouldn't solve everything, but it does seem like if Kabam wants to put a high tier challenge into the game they cannot a) use flavor text to describe it anywhere and b) they cannot include any non-cosmetic rewards of any kind. its crazy to think every high challenge content will need long-winded semantic disclaimers, but that seems to be the case.

On the subject of the content itself. To me personally, this is exactly what challenge content is supposed to be. First of all, it isn't challenging to everyone, because everyone has different skills. Its going to be plain out of reach of some, and something that is trivial for others. But for those that aren't masters of fighting Silver Surfer in all respects, the fight is long enough you can't burst through it, and complex enough to allow for theorycrafting. And if you aren't an expert at fighting Silver Surfer, it is a zero-energy map with only the one fight on it. In those respects, it is like Infinity Thanos.

And I am one of those players that sucks rocks fighting Silver Surfer. Or rather, I *was* one of those players that suck fighting Silver Surfer. I'm not ashamed to admit I practiced that fight so many times yesterday I really can't count them. Dozens, easily. More than fifty possibly. And all that practice went into learning how to evade his SP2 reliably, and also to learn his AI cues and patterns, of which he has several. I'd say I'm literally a hundred times better at fighting him today.

I did finally get an itemless run, although not a 100% solo one. I did about 85% with Medusa, and mopped up the rest with Colossus and Venom (who's surprisingly effective, although Venom seems to always be surprisingly effective). For someone that was dying 10% into the fight in the first run, I consider that an accomplishment.

Is all that effort worth 3000 5* shards and whatever gold? Not really. But was it worth *doing*? Yeah, because I like challenges and this was exactly the kind of challenge I like: it is condensed (into a single fight), it costs no energy, there's lots of time to try it and the rewards are incidental so there's no pressure to spend to finish. I'm glad I finished it before it was nerfed honestly. I made it a point to do so in fact. I'm a measurably better player coming out than going in. That in and of itself is worth it.

To the people saying this was poorly designed, most of whom think it was too difficult but a tiny minority who think it was just boring, I think there's two things to say. First, to the players who think the level of difficulty isn't fun, well, that's relative. Some players like challenging content, where the definition of "challenging" is "I'm not sure I can complete it," If you're sure you can complete it, that's not really a challenge. And it is important to note there aren't many things, if any, that the vast majority of players all find equally fun. Content doesn't target the majority, it targets as many minorities as possible. And for those that thought it was easy but boring, well, the converse applies. Maybe you're a god fighting Surfer but not everyone is. Maybe you're an expert at this kind of fight, but not everyone is. There's no way to make something that is challenging for everyone because everyone has different skill sets. Sometimes the skill set being challenged is something to acquired a year ago, and the rest of it is just a slog. But you complain about it at your own peril, because there's no such thing as making it always challenging for you. If you want content that tests skill, sometimes it is going to test skills you already have in abundance but not everyone has. You either tolerate that, or you slowly but surely weed out skill based challenges in favor of more quantitative ones.

Nothing is perfect, and that includes this fight. But it was exactly as advertised: something that replicates the difficulty of the Showdown, but with some specific modifications. It was doable with the right set of skills and didn't require ludicrously rare counters (regardless of claims to the contrary). It contained only token rewards, so anyone who couldn't do it - and most players should fail challenging content, or it isn't challenging - wouldn't be missing out on much.

It is one thing to think that the content or the way it was marketed could be improved. That's *always* true. But to think that our playerbase can't accommodate something like this, marketed like this, because it is going to generate the kind of reaction it has, in my opinion doesn't reflect well on us at all.

I agree with you on this challenge. The only issue I saw with it was the resources needed to rank up champs they gated from end game content. I would rather see them lower the opponent to a boosted 4* and limit champs used to 3*s. They are much cheaper to rank for a fun challenge and don't share the same rankup resources as 4*s. This would also open up more options for smaller accounts who are still searching for 4*s.

If there's one game mechanical feature I wish the game possessed when it comes to content like this, it is the "autolevel" feature many MMOs have, where if you enter content much higher or much lower than you are the game "levels you" temporarily to that level. If players could bring their 5* champs into content like this but the game autoleveled them down to 5/50s, I think that would in most cases be a good thing.

This would preserve one element I think the devs want to keep, namely searching your roster for the best option available rather than everyone just automatically using the same options, but eliminate the need to rank up (or down) champs to the appropriate challenge level. It would, however, mean you couldn't "outlevel" such content, because you would just get autoleveled back down if you tried to use higher champs. For this content that's not an issue, but it could be in other content.

Do you think it would have been possible if a beta server was Available with unlimited rank up mats and iso etc? As to me at least that sounds like a good idea but don't know if its actually a realistic option.

Demonzfyre

Moot4Life said:

Demonzfyre said:

MattMan said:

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC

500k gold for 1 fight. Gold is a bottleneck right? No one has gold, that's your epic reward. Everyone forget that already?

im pretty sure it would be faster to grind arena for 1.4 million health (for general populace, if you can solo it then it would be better to do this i think)

But everyone needs gold. 1000's of threads on "I need gold", That's your Epic Rewards.

Jaded

Demonzfyre said:

Moot4Life said:

Demonzfyre said:

MattMan said:

What about the EPIC REWARDS we were promised.

EPIC

500k gold for 1 fight. Gold is a bottleneck right? No one has gold, that's your epic reward. Everyone forget that already?

im pretty sure it would be faster to grind arena for 1.4 million health (for general populace, if you can solo it then it would be better to do this i think)

But everyone needs gold. 1000's of threads on "I need gold", That's your Epic Rewards.

The gold was definitely nice 🤷‍♂️