Hood Changes - Discussion [Merged Threads]

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  • winterthurwinterthur Member Posts: 8,059 ★★★★★
    What is more important? Request game developer to keeps Hood's ability or issue rank-down tickets?
  • RasiloverRasilover Member Posts: 1,478 ★★★★
    LOL At making a wack character more wack!!!!!
  • ThatGuyYouSaw235ThatGuyYouSaw235 Member Posts: 3,317 ★★★★★
    Rip Hood
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  • Wakandas_FinestWakandas_Finest Member Posts: 859 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Drenlin said:

    Wow, change notes have been out for 30 minutes and everyone already knows exactly how this change is going to effect him? Let the release happen, use the champ, then condemn it if it’s warranted

    I think the most important aspect of the Hood change is being overlooked, and it is something that while Kam mentions at the end of his video, I don't think he made the direct case for. If I understand Kam's video correctly, Kam makes the case that the devs took away too much relative to what they added back, and that's problematic for the players who invested in Hood for those things the devs took away. From that perspective, maybe we all should wait and see if that's true.

    However, I believe that is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if Hood is good or bad. It doesn't matter if the devs added enough, or not enough. The real problem is that Hood's update reflects a toxic design philosophy, and I don't use that word lightly. The philosophy is basically this: we can take away anything we want, as long as we put more stuff back.

    This game doesn't work that way, and in fact is moving farther and farther away from that. Usefulness is not linear: we don't have champs that are 8s that are better than 7s. We have champs that are useful in this fight, and champs that are useful in that fight. We have champs good in some situations and not in others. And we have a content design philosophy magnifying those differences in higher tier content. You need a roster with a wide range of capabilities to do all the content coming out.

    We no longer live in a world where the devs can turn a champ that is a 4 into a champ that is a 7 and walk away happy. Instead we live in a world where Hood had very specific buff control capabilities that were severely weakened in some aspects, and then had other stuff added. We cannot simply say the stuff added is "better" than the stuff removed, because for the players who were relying upon Hood to do those things that were removed, the champ no longer functions as desired in their specific roster.

    This is already problematic in a game where champion acquisition is random, so you have to deal with the hand you're dealt. But this game is also a game in which the resources to rank up champs to combat effective levels relative to the rest of the roster is also limited and expensive. Every single player faces a unique challenge when ranking up roster, unique due to the fact that everyone's roster is in effect randomly generated. For some people, Hood was their best options for certain things, and they invested in Hood because of that fact. Those investments are now lost. This is true even if Hood is now better at other things, because there's no guarantee that those players *needed* those other things.

    Maybe Hood is better for a new player picking him up today, and maybe Hood is not better. But that's irrelevant, or should be irrelevant. Those players are getting a better Hood on the backs of other players getting a worse Hood and losing resources they spent in good faith on a champ that changed for no reason.

    i say "for no reason" because if there was a need for Hood to lose the utility he lost, that would be one thing. Hypothetically speaking, if losing that utility was the *only way* for Hood to become more relevant to the playerbase at large, then this change would be awful but necessary, and we should all accept that some things are awful but necessary. But it is impossible to make the case that the loss of utility was necessary, because the devs could have added less powerful versions of their new mechanics and kept his original utility, as they don't conflict.

    If preservation of player investment was an actual priority with the developers, Hood could have been updated in a way that made him better for everyone.

    Instead, the devs played a numbers game. Improve Hood for the masses, and if enough people like it, it doesn't matter how much damage occurs to the people already invested in him.

    Whether you like the Hood update or not, whether you think the Hood update makes him more valuable or not, no matter what playtesting eventually shows, I think every player should consider the Hood update dangerous, because it says the devs don't care about pre-existing player investment. They only care about what players will invest in champions in the future. And if the devs continue to update champions with this philosophy, they will eventually take something away you like and for no reason.

    I understand there's some grey area here. Most game changes, most champion updates, take something away. Some of that is inevitable. The question is whether what was taken away is sufficiently useful and important that the preservation of investment is important. But I think the Hood change is unambiguously far over the line. There is no question whatsoever that he had important use cases, and there's no question some of them were taken away. Hood is not a grey area case.
    Player investment is the responsibility of the player’s not Kabam’s. Kabam has always reserved the right to make any changes they want at any time for any reason and you know this or at least you should. I swear I have never met so many die hard hood fans before today it hilarious. I’ve seen far more people want to quit the game over pulling a 6* hood than jump for joy. Again it’s very presumptuous of you to make this argument before even testing out the changes. For all you know he could still retain his buff control utility but now with more damage
  • ThatGuyYouSaw235ThatGuyYouSaw235 Member Posts: 3,317 ★★★★★

    DNA3000 said:

    Drenlin said:

    Wow, change notes have been out for 30 minutes and everyone already knows exactly how this change is going to effect him? Let the release happen, use the champ, then condemn it if it’s warranted

    I think the most important aspect of the Hood change is being overlooked, and it is something that while Kam mentions at the end of his video, I don't think he made the direct case for. If I understand Kam's video correctly, Kam makes the case that the devs took away too much relative to what they added back, and that's problematic for the players who invested in Hood for those things the devs took away. From that perspective, maybe we all should wait and see if that's true.

    However, I believe that is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if Hood is good or bad. It doesn't matter if the devs added enough, or not enough. The real problem is that Hood's update reflects a toxic design philosophy, and I don't use that word lightly. The philosophy is basically this: we can take away anything we want, as long as we put more stuff back.

    This game doesn't work that way, and in fact is moving farther and farther away from that. Usefulness is not linear: we don't have champs that are 8s that are better than 7s. We have champs that are useful in this fight, and champs that are useful in that fight. We have champs good in some situations and not in others. And we have a content design philosophy magnifying those differences in higher tier content. You need a roster with a wide range of capabilities to do all the content coming out.

    We no longer live in a world where the devs can turn a champ that is a 4 into a champ that is a 7 and walk away happy. Instead we live in a world where Hood had very specific buff control capabilities that were severely weakened in some aspects, and then had other stuff added. We cannot simply say the stuff added is "better" than the stuff removed, because for the players who were relying upon Hood to do those things that were removed, the champ no longer functions as desired in their specific roster.

    This is already problematic in a game where champion acquisition is random, so you have to deal with the hand you're dealt. But this game is also a game in which the resources to rank up champs to combat effective levels relative to the rest of the roster is also limited and expensive. Every single player faces a unique challenge when ranking up roster, unique due to the fact that everyone's roster is in effect randomly generated. For some people, Hood was their best options for certain things, and they invested in Hood because of that fact. Those investments are now lost. This is true even if Hood is now better at other things, because there's no guarantee that those players *needed* those other things.

    Maybe Hood is better for a new player picking him up today, and maybe Hood is not better. But that's irrelevant, or should be irrelevant. Those players are getting a better Hood on the backs of other players getting a worse Hood and losing resources they spent in good faith on a champ that changed for no reason.

    i say "for no reason" because if there was a need for Hood to lose the utility he lost, that would be one thing. Hypothetically speaking, if losing that utility was the *only way* for Hood to become more relevant to the playerbase at large, then this change would be awful but necessary, and we should all accept that some things are awful but necessary. But it is impossible to make the case that the loss of utility was necessary, because the devs could have added less powerful versions of their new mechanics and kept his original utility, as they don't conflict.

    If preservation of player investment was an actual priority with the developers, Hood could have been updated in a way that made him better for everyone.

    Instead, the devs played a numbers game. Improve Hood for the masses, and if enough people like it, it doesn't matter how much damage occurs to the people already invested in him.

    Whether you like the Hood update or not, whether you think the Hood update makes him more valuable or not, no matter what playtesting eventually shows, I think every player should consider the Hood update dangerous, because it says the devs don't care about pre-existing player investment. They only care about what players will invest in champions in the future. And if the devs continue to update champions with this philosophy, they will eventually take something away you like and for no reason.

    I understand there's some grey area here. Most game changes, most champion updates, take something away. Some of that is inevitable. The question is whether what was taken away is sufficiently useful and important that the preservation of investment is important. But I think the Hood change is unambiguously far over the line. There is no question whatsoever that he had important use cases, and there's no question some of them were taken away. Hood is not a grey area case.
    Player investment is the responsibility of the player’s not Kabam’s. Kabam has always reserved the right to make any changes they want at any time for any reason and you know this or at least you should. I swear I have never met so many die hard hood fans before today it hilarious. I’ve seen far more people want to quit the game over pulling a 6* hood than jump for joy. Again it’s very presumptuous of you to make this argument before even testing out the changes. For all you know he could still retain his buff control utility but now with more damage
    You're right, but what Kabam does with no prior announcement to a champion that you have ranked up for a specific reason isn't on the players because as far as they knew, they didn't know Hood would be changed let alone the very reason people ranked him up for being removed.
  • Wakandas_FinestWakandas_Finest Member Posts: 859 ★★★★

    Why noone talks about his bullets mechanic? If you use him against an opponent which doesn't proc any buffs (for example Deadpool in which you will use Hood to nullify his regeneration buff), you will be able to place upto 28 staggers (without using your sp2). Let's say that this is 14 combos (M-L-L-L-M). That's about 70 hits (14 combos * 5 hit each combo). What that means? If there is a 400K Deadpool you will probably lose all your staggers before you push him to 20% health. And if you can still somehow nullify his regeneration buff (you were boosted for example), in the next fight you won't be able to use Hood as a reliable nullifier cause he won't have any persistant charges

    You do know that Deadpool doesn’t have a regen buff right? His regen is passive and can’t be nullified or fatesealed
  • ThatGuyYouSaw235ThatGuyYouSaw235 Member Posts: 3,317 ★★★★★

    Why noone talks about his bullets mechanic? If you use him against an opponent which doesn't proc any buffs (for example Deadpool in which you will use Hood to nullify his regeneration buff), you will be able to place upto 28 staggers (without using your sp2). Let's say that this is 14 combos (M-L-L-L-M). That's about 70 hits (14 combos * 5 hit each combo). What that means? If there is a 400K Deadpool you will probably lose all your staggers before you push him to 20% health. And if you can still somehow nullify his regeneration buff (you were boosted for example), in the next fight you won't be able to use Hood as a reliable nullifier cause he won't have any persistant charges

    You do know that Deadpool doesn’t have a regen buff right? His regen is passive and can’t be nullified or fatesealed
    The regen that is a problem procs as a buff below 20%
  • J0eySn0wJ0eySn0w Member Posts: 979 ★★★★

    Guys, they won’t change hood back lol
    Daredevil Hell’s Kitchen, immortal hulk, Yellowjacket... Everyone cried to kabam saying don’t let these go live, make the change before release lol months later and guess what, no changes and these champions still aren’t used by most of the community (besides immortal hulk, fun rank up but mainly useless IMO)

    I feel you here, it's kinda sad. How many Hulks we got in-game and not a single one is top tier champ even Immortal Hulk lol. Unless he's got something the community hasn't figured out but mine is still at r1 cos I'm not hearing good things. I'm not sure if they might fix some stuffs with these guys later on we'd have to wait and see.
  • KRoNX1KRoNX1 Member Posts: 1,089 ★★★★

    My journey with hood and this buff as it stands so far.

    Hood was one of my first 6*s opened from a cav crystal. That I later dupped as one of my first 6*s to have the silver stars. I have used him here and there when ever his utility would apply. I wish I could remember all the specific examples but sadly I can not. I do remember using my 5* hood on the champion boss in act 6.2. It was amazing he took off over 50% health my first attempt with him.

    Fast forward to the present. I have mystic t4cc and 1 t5b in the overflow. I need to make a mystic rank up. I have personally decided that I will not rank any more 5* unless they are account changing or I have a gem. My mystic choices are... Loki sig 20, Hood sig 20, manthing, and morning star. Honestly the two I have wrestled with are manthing and hood as he is now. But the one thing holding me back from ranking hood was the damage, and the lack of reliability in his invisibility. I have a r5 doom and Clair. I just didn’t personally see myself bringing hood over those two for any particular fights. Which would really make the rank up useless. (I don’t have ghost so not even for a synergy slot)

    Upon hearing that hood was going to be buffed and prior to reading the spotlight or watching yt videos, I was elated. This might just solve my rank up dilemma, I thought. If they make his damage higher and tweak his invisibility to actually be like other invisibility in the game he will be perfect! I would defiantly see him claiming a spot on my questing teams over the afore mentioned champs.

    Once I had read the spotlight and watched some videos. I felt pretty 50/50. It all sounded kind of good, but I am worried about 3 things. The removed utility... will he even be worthy to reliably remove buffs. The persistent charges that would make him possibly useless against non buff heavy matches as you could easily run out of bullets.. and lastly the fact that his invisibility will still not be like all the other invisibility champs in the game!

    If he isn’t good I won’t rank him, and that would be the end of the discussion for me. However what really bothers me is the precedent it sets for buffs moving forward. We have several older champs that really do some things well and better than others!

    For example...

    1) Ronan: plenty of ppl have ranked this man up for one purpose, to cheese some of the hardest fights in the contest. I personally used him to beat gwenperion in act 7 as a r4 5* sig 60. I also used him for the cap am fight in act 6(prior to the “nerf” of that content). He has been well worth the rank up resources I put into him. Now imagine a Ronan with a higher base damage but a different sig ability that removes his ability to cheese content. Would you play this champ? I wouldn’t. The reason I ranked him was to take care of very specific situations, and he does that so well even at r4.

    2) Magik: who I am still convinced is one of the (if not THE) best power control champs in the game. I ranked her specifically for this and her survivability through limbo. Most ppl have passed Magik up based on damage as I have with hood. But imagine a Magik that can not power control as effectively, or that heals less from limbo, but has more base damage. Would you play this champion anymore? I know I wouldn’t. Unless that damage is stupidly op. It would have to be better than doom and Clair in my case.

    A scary precedent indeed...

    I don’t want to pass judgement until the buff is actually live... but if he is still not better in some meaningful way. I will probably still not rank him. So my question is what was the actual point in the first place of buffing him; If ppl still don’t rank the champ and he is only good as arena fodder? And if the buff turns out to actually be a nerf. I hope Kabam makes it right, and doesn’t use this as a way to remove utility they no longer want in the game...

    If you read all of that... thank you 😅

    U r wc
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