You have GOT to be joking rn. Your really think that's worth multiple max sig dupes? I recall you saying that earlier in the thread. That's not even half the value of a single max sig dupe. That's an incredible waste, so it's a good thing Kabam is removing this feature. If it was never here in the first place there's no way all these people would have come up and talked about "playing my way" or whatever other excuses they have for being impatient.
Post like his, only make me to don't want this change, better let them be and regret their decisions later
I've sold 4* Joe Fixit many times. If I haven't regretted it yet, I'm not likely to regret it later lol. Joe Fixit was one of my 1st 4*s. I had the lowest account in my alliance at the time and I was trying to get my 3*s out of war defense. I asked my alliance mates if he was any good and no one had the heart to tell me how terrible he was. Keep in mind, this was before the willpower nerf when his Sp1 used to heal the opponent back to full health. Anyway, I didn't have a full catalyst inventory back then, so I used units to buy energy so I could keep running the daily quest in order to get him to R3 in time for war defense. After I realized how bad he was playing arena, I came to hate him. Then 5*s came out and I sold him in order to fill out my 1st 5* crystal. Pulled Star Lord. That was the first (and only) good thing that 4* Fixit ever did for me. I decided to sell him every time I pulled him going forward, and I did for years. Enjoyed it every time. Lately I haven't bothered and he found his way to max sig, but this post came as a timely reminder that he needed to be sold before Kabam makes it impossible. I've never sold a lot of champs, but I've sold fixit as a matter of principle and the odd 4* hear and there if a 5* featured crystal (the old 20% variety) was going away and I wanted one more crack at it.
You see the tree and miss the forest
If I missed the forest I would have sold lots of champs. I get the forest. It's just that some individual trees do need to be cut down from time to time.
Nope, still the tree, your tree is how selfish you are about this change, God forbid they stop u from selling your Joe fixit, who cares how much it actually helps others.
Your ritual of selling a champ, that actually makes u lose in the process, doesn't make this bad change, just make u look a moron and me an idiot that I actually read what u type , and even worse, replying.
I'm being selfish? This is a forum to discuss the game and I don't like the change. How selfish of me. In order to not be selfish I'm supposed to like the change on the grounds that some hypothetical new player might be helped by it? I'd rather be fake selfish than actually rude lol. The only reason you look like an idiot is because you've started throwing around words like "moron".
Also could you explain again how selling my Fixit makes me lose? I must have missed that part.
You have GOT to be joking rn. Your really think that's worth multiple max sig dupes? I recall you saying that earlier in the thread. That's not even half the value of a single max sig dupe. That's an incredible waste, so it's a good thing Kabam is removing this feature. If it was never here in the first place there's no way all these people would have come up and talked about "playing my way" or whatever other excuses they have for being impatient.
Post like his, only make me to don't want this change, better let them be and regret their decisions later
I've sold 4* Joe Fixit many times. If I haven't regretted it yet, I'm not likely to regret it later lol. Joe Fixit was one of my 1st 4*s. I had the lowest account in my alliance at the time and I was trying to get my 3*s out of war defense. I asked my alliance mates if he was any good and no one had the heart to tell me how terrible he was. Keep in mind, this was before the willpower nerf when his Sp1 used to heal the opponent back to full health. Anyway, I didn't have a full catalyst inventory back then, so I used units to buy energy so I could keep running the daily quest in order to get him to R3 in time for war defense. After I realized how bad he was playing arena, I came to hate him. Then 5*s came out and I sold him in order to fill out my 1st 5* crystal. Pulled Star Lord. That was the first (and only) good thing that 4* Fixit ever did for me. I decided to sell him every time I pulled him going forward, and I did for years. Enjoyed it every time. Lately I haven't bothered and he found his way to max sig, but this post came as a timely reminder that he needed to be sold before Kabam makes it impossible. I've never sold a lot of champs, but I've sold fixit as a matter of principle and the odd 4* hear and there if a 5* featured crystal (the old 20% variety) was going away and I wanted one more crack at it.
You see the tree and miss the forest
If I missed the forest I would have sold lots of champs. I get the forest. It's just that some individual trees do need to be cut down from time to time.
Nope, still the tree, your tree is how selfish you are about this change, God forbid they stop u from selling your Joe fixit, who cares how much it actually helps others.
Your ritual of selling a champ, that actually makes u lose in the process, doesn't make this bad change, just make u look a moron and me an idiot that I actually read what u type , and even worse, replying.
I'm being selfish? This is a forum to discuss the game and I don't like the change. How selfish of me. In order to not be selfish I'm supposed to like the change on the grounds that some hypothetical new player might be helped by it? I'd rather be fake selfish than actually rude lol. The only reason you look like an idiot is because you've started throwing around words like "moron".
Also could you explain again how selling my Fixit makes me lose? I must have missed that part.
Instead of stopping us from selling champs, give us access to get 1* champ. When am 100 shards from getting a 5* crystal i like the ability of selling joe fix it or cyclops to get 5* crystal instead of waiting for next Aq rewards or quest. I remember selling my 4* venom a few yrs back only for a spider theme monthly quest to come in a fews days later of which venom was mvp, i regretted it at 1st but resulting 5* gave me a 5* venom which made the quest super easy. Best decision ever. Also what will i do with all my expiring 3*,4* awakening gems?
You do have access to 1 star champs. There is a crystal for 50 units to get them. Also, Kabam gave out so many collector crystals recently, I lost count. There will also should be events in future that gives access to these crystals so that we can get some exclusive 2 star champs. As far as 3* and 4* AGs are concerned, use them on the non awakened champs as soon as you get them. I get them all the time from the superior solo crystals and use them immediately. I have 0 non-awakened 4 stars now and still have 4 star AG expiring.
No! No! No! the chances of getting 1* is from that crystal is lower than 2* which is the reverse of how any chance rate in this game, 1* is more rare to get than 2*,3*,4* even 5 and 6*. All my 2* 3*s and 4* are awakened hence why i have expiring awakening gem, i sell champs to use them then i get them Back and use the expiring sig stones on them that way i get points on events which gives me solo stones which gives me sig stones and awakening gems and the cycle continues.
It's definitely a move that's better for players overall but I couldn't care less if they kept the option to sell. I still don't feel bad for people that struggled with V4 bc they refused to listen to people. I wouldn't feel bad for anyone that struggles with content later bc they were stubborn and short sighted. If they want to sell, go ahead and let them. Just don't cry about not being able to get something back that you sold.
In the end, no matter how it's framed kabam did this for themselves. It alleviates the headache they had from everyone who complained about having sold champs after V4 came out. This way they can do what they want with content and don't have to deal with that again.
You have GOT to be joking rn. Your really think that's worth multiple max sig dupes? I recall you saying that earlier in the thread. That's not even half the value of a single max sig dupe. That's an incredible waste, so it's a good thing Kabam is removing this feature. If it was never here in the first place there's no way all these people would have come up and talked about "playing my way" or whatever other excuses they have for being impatient.
That one sale isn't worth multiple max sig dupes. That isn't what I said. If you rank him to R3 and sell him each time you pull him it will take a long time and multiple max sig dupes before you will earn the same amount of 5* shards. But as I said in the previous post, that wasn't really the point.
That did not explain anything as to why you would make such a poor decision, and as I said before, you don't get "rights" in this game. You don't own anything.
In what way is it a poor decision? I have 662 champs now that I sold my 4* Joe Fixit. I have 173 other 4* champs, most of which are max sig. I've got about 22 million gold at the moment, lots of Iso. The only thing holding back my rank ups at the moment is getting t5 basics faster than t2 alphas. I enjoy selling my 4* Joe Fixit and doing so has not hindered my progress in any way whatsoever. Your disapproval doesn't make it a poor decision.
The entire forums collectively agrees it's a poor decision, including the devs
Another post lost due to editing smh. Anyway I asked you in what way selling my Joe Fixit was a bad decision in light of the fact that I enjoy selling him and in the context of my specific account, and you give me Argumentum ad Populum. I'm not convinced lol
Okay, fair, but if I had to choose between so many people complaining about not having a large enough roster for content, and a few people complaining about not being able to sell one champ, I'd pick the latter
What Kabam fail to realise is that not all of us want to play the game the same way. For me, the fun of this game doesn't lie primarily in progressing through the game content and amassing the biggest roster of champions possible; its about putting together what, for me, is the ideal roster of champions. That means keeping the champions I want and getting rid of the ones I don't. I understand that means I will be denied the ability in the future to access certain types of gameplay (depending on the specific champion requirements) and I understand all the arguments being made about the benefits of duping but those are beside the point. I choose to play the game the way I enjoy it, even if that differs from how the majority play. I am now being denied that choice by Kabam. This is a terrible move by them.
So it bothers you to have champs you don't want? How do you deal with 5*s?
I don't rank them up and I would sell if I could
And when those five stars you sold get buffed. You can only blame yourself.
I've been playing for 5 years. Spent $$$$ on this game.
Players should have the option of whether or not to sell champs.
People keep saying you get more shards... um, you will still be getting those 1-4* champs via those crappy crystals.
For me, why would I keep a 1*, 2*, 3*, 4*, of the same champ when I already have that champ as a 5* / 6*?
When I look at my roster, I don't want to see champs I NEVER use, even for Arena. I'm too busy in real life, and have enough 5* & 6* champs to keep me busy in the game.
Plus the "sort" & "filter" functionality needs A LOT of changes. Like adding a player's preference by "default" . Why has Kabam not done this yet when other games have this feature?
I've already submitted several requests for these changes.
Anyways, hopefully the option to sell champs comes back. It shouldn't be forced on players to keep champs they don't like being shoved in their roster.
I've been playing for 5 years. Spent $$$$ on this game.
Players should have the option of whether or not to sell champs.
People keep saying you get more shards... um, you will still be getting those 1-4* champs via those crappy crystals.
For me, why would I keep a 1*, 2*, 3*, 4*, of the same champ when I already have that champ as a 5* / 6*?
When I look at my roster, I don't want to see champs I NEVER use, even for Arena. I'm too busy in real life, and have enough 5* & 6* champs to keep me busy in the game.
Plus the "sort" & "filter" functionality needs A LOT of changes. Like adding a player's preference by "default" . Why has Kabam not done this yet when other games have this feature?
I've already submitted several requests for these changes.
Anyways, hopefully the option to sell champs comes back. It shouldn't be forced on players to keep champs they don't like being shoved in their roster.
I mean, this literally is a roster-building game. And you don't get shards via pulling the champ from those crystals. You get it from dupes which means you have to have the champion first. This a pro-player move targetted towards the lower-level champions.
I've been playing for 5 years. Spent $$$$ on this game.
Players should have the option of whether or not to sell champs.
People keep saying you get more shards... um, you will still be getting those 1-4* champs via those crappy crystals.
For me, why would I keep a 1*, 2*, 3*, 4*, of the same champ when I already have that champ as a 5* / 6*?
When I look at my roster, I don't want to see champs I NEVER use, even for Arena. I'm too busy in real life, and have enough 5* & 6* champs to keep me busy in the game.
Plus the "sort" & "filter" functionality needs A LOT of changes. Like adding a player's preference by "default" . Why has Kabam not done this yet when other games have this feature?
I've already submitted several requests for these changes.
Anyways, hopefully the option to sell champs comes back. It shouldn't be forced on players to keep champs they don't like being shoved in their roster.
One thing, if you always sell lower rarities champs how do you have the ISO to rank up 5 and 6 star champs? Cause they need tons of ISO and the main source of it is duping lower rarities champs.
You do realise you get more from duping champs than selling them?
This is very inaccurate. If you sell champs that you have ranked up or even maxed out, you get way more shards and ISO than you would possibly get by duping them once or twice.
EXACTLY!!! We should be allowed to sell if we want. I have played for 5+ years and built my chosen roster of 5* as well as 4,3,and2 * by maxing and selling and then using the iso to beef up the characters I DO want. This has also allowed me to contribute more in alliance quests and gain more daily and weekly awards. Everyone wins . But now I will be stuck with dozens of useless and unwanted small star champions I will NEVER want and I’ll never have the resources (even after hours of daily grinding) to up any high level substantially.
You get 15 5000 class iso when you sell a maxed 3*. That boosts to 15 7500 iso if you use it on the same class. Selling is the BEST way to boost a high character. In 5+ years I can count on one hand the number of useful dupes I have gotten of high level champs. Almost all have been low dupes than offer next to nothing in iso - especially compared to the huge windfall I get from selling a maxed 3* (which is common and easy to do within a week or so).
I've been playing for 5 years. Spent $$$$ on this game.
Players should have the option of whether or not to sell champs.
People keep saying you get more shards... um, you will still be getting those 1-4* champs via those crappy crystals.
For me, why would I keep a 1*, 2*, 3*, 4*, of the same champ when I already have that champ as a 5* / 6*?
When I look at my roster, I don't want to see champs I NEVER use, even for Arena. I'm too busy in real life, and have enough 5* & 6* champs to keep me busy in the game.
Plus the "sort" & "filter" functionality needs A LOT of changes. Like adding a player's preference by "default" . Why has Kabam not done this yet when other games have this feature?
I've already submitted several requests for these changes.
Anyways, hopefully the option to sell champs comes back. It shouldn't be forced on players to keep champs they don't like being shoved in their roster.
I agree 500% . Also a 5+ year player here. We should have the option of selling champions if WE want so we can build the roster we need for the way we play the game. In 5+ years I have NEVER sold a champ and regretted it. I can count on one hand the number of useful dupes I have gotten (and before you say it’s because I sell, I have dozens of champions and don’t WANT the ones I sell so the point of having hundreds is moot). Hell I would sell a dozen 5* champs I never built up for free just to get them off my page. I would much rather have the rewards of selling than another empty champ I don’t want sitting around for a dupe that will rarely come. Especially when the rewards for selling a maxed out 3* are great amounts of class iso and I can easily build those up all the time.
You do realise you get more from duping champs than selling them?
This is very inaccurate. If you sell champs that you have ranked up or even maxed out, you get way more shards and ISO than you would possibly get by duping them once or twice.
EXACTLY!!! We should be allowed to sell if we want. I have played for 5+ years and built my chosen roster of 5* as well as 4,3,and2 * by maxing and selling and then using the iso to beef up the characters I DO want. This has also allowed me to contribute more in alliance quests and gain more daily and weekly awards. Everyone wins . But now I will be stuck with dozens of useless and unwanted small star champions I will NEVER want and I’ll never have the resources (even after hours of daily grinding) to up any high level substantially.
You get 15 5000 class iso when you sell a maxed 3*. That boosts to 15 7500 iso if you use it on the same class. Selling is the BEST way to boost a high character. In 5+ years I can count on one hand the number of useful dupes I have gotten of high level champs. Almost all have been low dupes than offer next to nothing in iso - especially compared to the huge windfall I get from selling a maxed 3* (which is common and easy to do within a week or so).
I've never sold any champs and have pretty much every champ at 4* and below (minus some of the featured or newsy champs) and most are already duped. That means every 4* crystal I pull is guaranteed 24 bricks of class iso. No way selling champs can match that. Granted it's not always the class iso I need that exact moment, it's 24x 5k class iso bricks and I open probably 10-20 x 4* crystal a month - minimum. You can't possibly sell enough ranked champs to get anywhere near that. I can see why your upset tho... Now, you gotta build your roster to have this never ending iso flow.
Kabam is also going to release content that is champ and rarity specific in the future. Everyone who sold those champs is gonna have to wait to pull them now and complain like v4 hulk at 1*. It's a better alternative for the majority of players and especially new players.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda... Accept it or don't, but that's the way it is now and a lot of people who understand the iso dupe system (me included) think it is the better way to go. Anyone who's been selling champs the entire time just can't fathom how many dupes yiu actually get a month that results in iso. Plus with dual crystals you can practically go for the exact iso yiu need when you want to.l by hoarding them and opening the class crystals you need the most.
How much ISO does it take to max a 3*? Selling for 15 5k class brick seems like a lot! I might of really sold a champ just to rank my higher ones. That being said it’s better in the long run to keep your champs for content like V4 and Carinas Challenges
How much ISO does it take to max a 3*? Selling for 15 5k class brick seems like a lot! I might of really sold a champ just to rank my higher ones. That being said it’s better in the long run to keep your champs for content like V4 and Carinas Challenges
two things to kind of make my point clearer:
1. it is VERY easy to grind and boost a 3* to max (I play at least an hour a day ) so maxing up and getting more 3* just as feeder champs is easy to do. Getting the right lucky dupe is not. 2. You're assuming I'm interested in all the challenges that require specific champs; I'm really not at all. I like the monthly challenges (all levels including the ones needing high level champs) and the alliance quests and battles which NEVER require a specific champ. I'm FAR better off making a roster of tight maxed out champs at all levels and selling extras and ones I dont like to play to benefit the others.
Again, the main problem is by now taking away any chance to sell champions folks like me cannot play the game as we enjoy and have for years. I don't see why this had to happen and ruin our game when it was simple enough to just NOT sell if someone wanted to wait around for dupes or have every champ at every level (Which I most certainly do NOT).
How much ISO does it take to max a 3*? Selling for 15 5k class brick seems like a lot! I might of really sold a champ just to rank my higher ones. That being said it’s better in the long run to keep your champs for content like V4 and Carinas Challenges
22 5k Class ISO bricks would be required to fully rank a 3 star. And a handful of smaller bricks.
If you max a 3 star and sell it, wouldn't it have been better to just not max out the 3 star and use the iso on the champ you need? And then when you dupe the champ, it overall becomes more.
I've been playing for 5 years. Spent $$$$ on this game.
Players should have the option of whether or not to sell champs.
People keep saying you get more shards... um, you will still be getting those 1-4* champs via those crappy crystals.
For me, why would I keep a 1*, 2*, 3*, 4*, of the same champ when I already have that champ as a 5* / 6*?
When I look at my roster, I don't want to see champs I NEVER use, even for Arena. I'm too busy in real life, and have enough 5* & 6* champs to keep me busy in the game.
Plus the "sort" & "filter" functionality needs A LOT of changes. Like adding a player's preference by "default" . Why has Kabam not done this yet when other games have this feature?
I've already submitted several requests for these changes.
Anyways, hopefully the option to sell champs comes back. It shouldn't be forced on players to keep champs they don't like being shoved in their roster.
I'm indifferent with the removal of such option but I agree with you that the current sort function is not good at all. I grind arena frequently and want a specific set of synergy team, also I start from bottom ranked champs till round 10. Thus I don't know why Kabam not offer a custom sort function to user.
BTW, I sold my entire 1/2/3* champs few years ago due to order from alliance leader. I have already got back all of them subsequently.
You do realise you get more from duping champs than selling them?
This is very inaccurate. If you sell champs that you have ranked up or even maxed out, you get way more shards and ISO than you would possibly get by duping them once or twice.
More shards yes, but only after pumping in hundreds of thousands of gold, catalysts, and the very iso you are so desperate to reap from selling your champions. Not to mention the guys right, you get less iso than if you were to dupe the champion once. Literally how the game is set up.
It's a misnomer. Immediate gratification with long-term handicaps. You get more from Max Sig Crystals in the long run. Why on Earth people are set on selling is beyond me, but it just amputates Accounts.
Oh yes, selling champs. I think to help progress this debate it would be good to really know in a bit of detail what content is coming where all these disagree’ers will lose out. For instance, is there going to be content which specifically only allows lower starred champs, but gives big rewards? If that was the case, I don’t believe anyone would argue in wanting to keep all their champs.
I’ve never understood selling champs. You basically are just hurting yourself even with the goal you stated(unless you literally only want certain champs to exist on your roster but even then that has never been possible).
Even if you want to build your roster with champs you like to use the fastest and best way to do that over time is by holding onto and getting all champs to max sig at each level you can. This creates more shards.
These days every 4* I open is almost always 550 5* shards. That adds up pretty quickly. Same thing happens at lower levels for 3* and such.
Also for those that don’t know better the option to not sell champs makes sense too. This isn’t always the case with loot based games.
Lastly selling in this game is an impulsive move because it’s just for the immediate shards. You don’t get resources or anything else for the most part of value. It’s not a loot based game where scrapping duplicate pulls of something makes sense. It’s better for the collective and newer people who join to realize this as it’s different then other similar games in that regard and people get burned not realizing that.
Maybe selling champs is not good but we should have an option to do this in different ways, like put your champs on rent😅, example if you put a 4* champion on rent (solid) for some 5* shard then you will not be able to use and pull him again from 4* crystal until you give back those 5* shard😁 And we should be able to that with 5* champs too but 6* will give you some More option as rank up material, huge amount of iso.. We all have so many bench warmers and it's the best way to use them for something useful
Maybe selling champs is not good but we should have an option to do this in different ways, like put your champs on rent😅, example if you put a 4* champion on rent (solid) for some 5* shard then you will not be able to use and pull him again from 4* crystal until you give back those 5* shard😁 And we should be able to that with 5* champs too but 6* will give you some More option as rank up material, huge amount of iso.. We all have so many bench warmers and it's the best way to use them for something useful
Comments
the chances of getting 1* is from that crystal is lower than 2* which is the reverse of how any chance rate in this game, 1* is more rare to get than 2*,3*,4* even 5 and 6*.
All my 2* 3*s and 4* are awakened hence why i have expiring awakening gem, i sell champs to use them then i get them Back and use the expiring sig stones on them that way i get points on events which gives me solo stones which gives me sig stones and awakening gems and the cycle continues.
Players should have the option of whether or not to sell champs.
People keep saying you get more shards... um, you will still be getting those 1-4* champs via those crappy crystals.
For me, why would I keep a 1*, 2*, 3*, 4*, of the same champ when I already have that champ as a 5* / 6*?
When I look at my roster, I don't want to see champs I NEVER use, even for Arena. I'm too busy in real life, and have enough 5* & 6* champs to keep me busy in the game.
Plus the "sort" & "filter" functionality needs A LOT of changes. Like adding a player's preference by "default" . Why has Kabam not done this yet when other games have this feature?
I've already submitted several requests for these changes.
Anyways, hopefully the option to sell champs comes back. It shouldn't be forced on players to keep champs they don't like being shoved in their roster.
You get 15 5000 class iso when you sell a maxed 3*. That boosts to 15 7500 iso if you use it on the same class. Selling is the BEST way to boost a high character. In 5+ years I can count on one hand the number of useful dupes I have gotten of high level champs. Almost all have been low dupes than offer next to nothing in iso - especially compared to the huge windfall I get from selling a maxed 3* (which is common and easy to do within a week or so).
Kabam is also going to release content that is champ and rarity specific in the future. Everyone who sold those champs is gonna have to wait to pull them now and complain like v4 hulk at 1*. It's a better alternative for the majority of players and especially new players.
Coulda, shoulda, woulda... Accept it or don't, but that's the way it is now and a lot of people who understand the iso dupe system (me included) think it is the better way to go. Anyone who's been selling champs the entire time just can't fathom how many dupes yiu actually get a month that results in iso. Plus with dual crystals you can practically go for the exact iso yiu need when you want to.l by hoarding them and opening the class crystals you need the most.
1. it is VERY easy to grind and boost a 3* to max (I play at least an hour a day ) so maxing up and getting more 3* just as feeder champs is easy to do. Getting the right lucky dupe is not.
2. You're assuming I'm interested in all the challenges that require specific champs; I'm really not at all. I like the monthly challenges (all levels including the ones needing high level champs) and the alliance quests and battles which NEVER require a specific champ. I'm FAR better off making a roster of tight maxed out champs at all levels and selling extras and ones I dont like to play to benefit the others.
Again, the main problem is by now taking away any chance to sell champions folks like me cannot play the game as we enjoy and have for years. I don't see why this had to happen and ruin our game when it was simple enough to just NOT sell if someone wanted to wait around for dupes or have every champ at every level (Which I most certainly do NOT).
BTW, I sold my entire 1/2/3* champs few years ago due to order from alliance leader. I have already got back all of them subsequently.
Oh yes, selling champs.
I think to help progress this debate it would be good to really know in a bit of detail what content is coming where all these disagree’ers will lose out.
For instance, is there going to be content which specifically only allows lower starred champs, but gives big rewards? If that was the case, I don’t believe anyone would argue in wanting to keep all their champs.
Even if you want to build your roster with champs you like to use the fastest and best way to do that over time is by holding onto and getting all champs to max sig at each level you can. This creates more shards.
These days every 4* I open is almost always 550 5* shards. That adds up pretty quickly. Same thing happens at lower levels for 3* and such.
Also for those that don’t know better the option to not sell champs makes sense too. This isn’t always the case with loot based games.
Lastly selling in this game is an impulsive move because it’s just for the immediate shards. You don’t get resources or anything else for the most part of value. It’s not a loot based game where scrapping duplicate pulls of something makes sense. It’s better for the collective and newer people who join to realize this as it’s different then other similar games in that regard and people get burned not realizing that.
And we should be able to that with 5* champs too but 6* will give you some More option as rank up material, huge amount of iso..
We all have so many bench warmers and it's the best way to use them for something useful