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So..... is the Gamora buff final, or...?

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    CosmicGuardianCosmicGuardian Posts: 408 ★★★
    One point I keep seeing brought up is that it’s too early to judge the buff. While I do agree with the fact that it is always best to wait until the buff goes live to make any final judgements, when a buff doesn’t change much it isn’t hard to see what little impact said changes will have.

    While this buff does add things like a miss counter, the ability to refresh her true strike, and a slight increase to her chance to proc buffs, it ultimately doesn’t make any changes to her current playstyle and rotation. She already has a stressful playstyle due to relying on her heavy in order to keep her buffs up. Since her buff duration has not been increased, this means the stressful playstyle remains. Other than a slight bump in cruelty potency, her damage output is unchanged.

    So seeing as how she still has a stressful playstyle, with pieces of utility that we’ve already established are unpractical, I feel it’s safe to assume that this buff won’t really do much to improve Gamora’s status in-game. Even though I’ll wait until next week to make any final judgements, this is one buff I have no problem judging beforehand based on how the champ already works.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,370 ★★★★★
    You keep making digs about a Guide but not once have I claimed to be an expert on her. I said people have been making judgments before they've even used the buff.
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    mbracembrace Posts: 844 ★★★
    Gamora wins the prize for most insignificant buff ever. She even beat out Nova for that.
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    ThatGuyYouSaw235ThatGuyYouSaw235 Posts: 3,176 ★★★★★
    mbrace said:

    Gamora wins the prize for most insignificant buff ever. She even beat out Nova for that.

    Sentry:
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,370 ★★★★★
    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    You keep making digs about a Guide but not once have I claimed to be an expert on her. I said people have been making judgments before they've even used the buff.

    What do we need to wait and see about? I can already test her miss counter, I’ve tried to get to 10 buffs against tunnel vision. It’s not fun. I got to 50 hits and gave up when I was at 3 buffs.

    I tried her in Cav EQ, and after 70 hits the fight was over and I was still on 9 buffs. Not to mention, the only way she could deal with the falter from miss was due to the vigilance buff that she gets as a cosmic champ from the node. Without that, she would have been screwed.

    I tried her evade counter, first time I tried, her heavy lasted longer than the stun from my parry and I got combo’d and KO. Next time, the opponent evaded 7 times before my sp3.

    So are you recommending I wait until her buff gets here, so I can do the same things I’ve already done, and conclude the same thing I’ve already concluded? I’ve already tried to get to ten buffs for miss counter, and sp3 for evade counter. Neither are practical, I don’t need the buff to show me that.

    Tell me, if a champion was buffed, and had an ability that triggered if you took 1000 hits in a fight, would you say wait and see for the buff?

    Those the only scenarios you encounter Miss or Auto-Block/Evade?
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    ShadowstrikeShadowstrike Posts: 3,105 ★★★★★
    J0eySn0w said:

    Kabam, just don’t go live with this one it’s a complete fail. If this happened during the 3 buff system you could have gotten away with this but 2 buffs system, Gamora buff is absolutely useless you shouldn’t have touched her at all and used that time on someone else. Listen to feedback and her the buff worth it and practical. The game is frustrating enough right now. Do this right to just show us some good faith with the 2 buffs system.

    You know this was done BEFORE they even announced scaling back to 2 a month?
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,370 ★★★★★
    ThatGuyYouSaw235 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    You keep making digs about a Guide but not once have I claimed to be an expert on her. I said people have been making judgments before they've even used the buff.

    What do we need to wait and see about? I can already test her miss counter, I’ve tried to get to 10 buffs against tunnel vision. It’s not fun. I got to 50 hits and gave up when I was at 3 buffs.

    I tried her in Cav EQ, and after 70 hits the fight was over and I was still on 9 buffs. Not to mention, the only way she could deal with the falter from miss was due to the vigilance buff that she gets as a cosmic champ from the node. Without that, she would have been screwed.

    I tried her evade counter, first time I tried, her heavy lasted longer than the stun from my parry and I got combo’d and KO. Next time, the opponent evaded 7 times before my sp3.

    So are you recommending I wait until her buff gets here, so I can do the same things I’ve already done, and conclude the same thing I’ve already concluded? I’ve already tried to get to ten buffs for miss counter, and sp3 for evade counter. Neither are practical, I don’t need the buff to show me that.

    Tell me, if a champion was buffed, and had an ability that triggered if you took 1000 hits in a fight, would you say wait and see for the buff?

    Those the only scenarios you encounter Miss or Auto-Block/Evade?
    Then please name literally miss/evade/auto-block matchup where you would use her over the many other miss, auto-block and/or evade counters.

    Here, I'll narrow down some of your options so it's easier for you.

    Mesmerise: You'd likely be KO'd before you can counter it because her heavy right now is longer than a parry stun iirc. Plus its too much RNG so you might as well just give up on it.

    Mix-Master: Anyone can do Mix-Master, she can too but with all the other evade counters in the game who reach their ability to counter it far quicker than her, is it really worth it?

    Spry: Same reasons as Mesmerise.
    You're thinking Nodes. Champions have those Abilities as well, and you don't need to have all present. Some have Auto-Block, some have Miss, some have Evade.
    You're also looking at it from the point of view that she should do it better than others. That's not the point. The point is to give her more than she had before.
    Is she top of the pile? No. Is she niche? Perhaps, yes. Whoever pulls her and doesn't have other options will still get more use from her.
    For the record, I haven't said my opinion on it either way. I haven't said it was enough or not. I have to see her first. What I'm talking about is this whole expectation that these adjustments are supposed to make them comparably better. They're not really, not specifically. It's not about making them more preferable than others. It's about sprucing them up compared to how they currently perform.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,370 ★★★★★
    For the record, I don't rely on paper to form my judgments. I have the same mentality when Champs are released. I allow adequate time in the game before I make judgments.
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    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,262 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    ThatGuyYouSaw235 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    You keep making digs about a Guide but not once have I claimed to be an expert on her. I said people have been making judgments before they've even used the buff.

    What do we need to wait and see about? I can already test her miss counter, I’ve tried to get to 10 buffs against tunnel vision. It’s not fun. I got to 50 hits and gave up when I was at 3 buffs.

    I tried her in Cav EQ, and after 70 hits the fight was over and I was still on 9 buffs. Not to mention, the only way she could deal with the falter from miss was due to the vigilance buff that she gets as a cosmic champ from the node. Without that, she would have been screwed.

    I tried her evade counter, first time I tried, her heavy lasted longer than the stun from my parry and I got combo’d and KO. Next time, the opponent evaded 7 times before my sp3.

    So are you recommending I wait until her buff gets here, so I can do the same things I’ve already done, and conclude the same thing I’ve already concluded? I’ve already tried to get to ten buffs for miss counter, and sp3 for evade counter. Neither are practical, I don’t need the buff to show me that.

    Tell me, if a champion was buffed, and had an ability that triggered if you took 1000 hits in a fight, would you say wait and see for the buff?

    Those the only scenarios you encounter Miss or Auto-Block/Evade?
    Then please name literally miss/evade/auto-block matchup where you would use her over the many other miss, auto-block and/or evade counters.

    Here, I'll narrow down some of your options so it's easier for you.

    Mesmerise: You'd likely be KO'd before you can counter it because her heavy right now is longer than a parry stun iirc. Plus its too much RNG so you might as well just give up on it.

    Mix-Master: Anyone can do Mix-Master, she can too but with all the other evade counters in the game who reach their ability to counter it far quicker than her, is it really worth it?

    Spry: Same reasons as Mesmerise.
    You're thinking Nodes. Champions have those Abilities as well, and you don't need to have all present. Some have Auto-Block, some have Miss, some have Evade.
    You're also looking at it from the point of view that she should do it better than others. That's not the point. The point is to give her more than she had before.
    Is she top of the pile? No. Is she niche? Perhaps, yes. Whoever pulls her and doesn't have other options will still get more use from her.
    For the record, I haven't said my opinion on it either way. I haven't said it was enough or not. I have to see her first. What I'm talking about is this whole expectation that these adjustments are supposed to make them comparably better. They're not really, not specifically. It's not about making them more preferable than others. It's about sprucing them up compared to how they currently perform.
    What champions that miss would you take gamora for and think hitting them 70 + times is a good ability?

    Why exactly do you need to see her first? You can go and test all her abilities right now. The fact you keep ignoring this point and just harping on with your own shows that you know it’s valid, and you have no response to it.

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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,370 ★★★★★
    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    ThatGuyYouSaw235 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    You keep making digs about a Guide but not once have I claimed to be an expert on her. I said people have been making judgments before they've even used the buff.

    What do we need to wait and see about? I can already test her miss counter, I’ve tried to get to 10 buffs against tunnel vision. It’s not fun. I got to 50 hits and gave up when I was at 3 buffs.

    I tried her in Cav EQ, and after 70 hits the fight was over and I was still on 9 buffs. Not to mention, the only way she could deal with the falter from miss was due to the vigilance buff that she gets as a cosmic champ from the node. Without that, she would have been screwed.

    I tried her evade counter, first time I tried, her heavy lasted longer than the stun from my parry and I got combo’d and KO. Next time, the opponent evaded 7 times before my sp3.

    So are you recommending I wait until her buff gets here, so I can do the same things I’ve already done, and conclude the same thing I’ve already concluded? I’ve already tried to get to ten buffs for miss counter, and sp3 for evade counter. Neither are practical, I don’t need the buff to show me that.

    Tell me, if a champion was buffed, and had an ability that triggered if you took 1000 hits in a fight, would you say wait and see for the buff?

    Those the only scenarios you encounter Miss or Auto-Block/Evade?
    Then please name literally miss/evade/auto-block matchup where you would use her over the many other miss, auto-block and/or evade counters.

    Here, I'll narrow down some of your options so it's easier for you.

    Mesmerise: You'd likely be KO'd before you can counter it because her heavy right now is longer than a parry stun iirc. Plus its too much RNG so you might as well just give up on it.

    Mix-Master: Anyone can do Mix-Master, she can too but with all the other evade counters in the game who reach their ability to counter it far quicker than her, is it really worth it?

    Spry: Same reasons as Mesmerise.
    You're thinking Nodes. Champions have those Abilities as well, and you don't need to have all present. Some have Auto-Block, some have Miss, some have Evade.
    You're also looking at it from the point of view that she should do it better than others. That's not the point. The point is to give her more than she had before.
    Is she top of the pile? No. Is she niche? Perhaps, yes. Whoever pulls her and doesn't have other options will still get more use from her.
    For the record, I haven't said my opinion on it either way. I haven't said it was enough or not. I have to see her first. What I'm talking about is this whole expectation that these adjustments are supposed to make them comparably better. They're not really, not specifically. It's not about making them more preferable than others. It's about sprucing them up compared to how they currently perform.
    What champions that miss would you take gamora for and think hitting them 70 + times is a good ability?

    Why exactly do you need to see her first? You can go and test all her abilities right now. The fact you keep ignoring this point and just harping on with your own shows that you know it’s valid, and you have no response to it.

    You can't test Abilities and their use before they're live. You're entitled to your own opinion, but I don't make judgments without sufficient time in the game. That's just how I operate.
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    BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 9,262 ★★★★★
    GroundedWisdom said:

    Right. As she is now. So how can you test the usefulness of her Evade or Miss counter without them even being present? For that matter, are you trying a variety of levels of content, or are you just looking at content at your level? There is data that comes from releasing things live that can't come from one demographic or Player alone. Honestly, this is a debate that will not end. I don't make premature judgments. Never have. Even when people said Carnage sucked, Maw sucked, Diablo sucked, I never made that call until they were in the game long enough to determine that.

    Because the entire problem with her miss and evade counter is getting to them, not the actual counter themselves. When you have ten buffs, sure I bet it’s great. When you have the true strike, yeah works perfectly. But there’s an inherent issue with taking 70+ hits to get to a miss counter. When 90% of the content we do is over before then. And besides, being able to refresh buffs while being able to miss is not going to work very well. There’s an inherent problem with getting to an sp3 to counter evade, because you’re in danger while getting there. It’s the reason nobody used spark, cable or gamora before this buff. And it’s the reason nobody will use them to counter evade after.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,370 ★★★★★
    BitterSteel said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Right. As she is now. So how can you test the usefulness of her Evade or Miss counter without them even being present? For that matter, are you trying a variety of levels of content, or are you just looking at content at your level? There is data that comes from releasing things live that can't come from one demographic or Player alone. Honestly, this is a debate that will not end. I don't make premature judgments. Never have. Even when people said Carnage sucked, Maw sucked, Diablo sucked, I never made that call until they were in the game long enough to determine that.

    Because the entire problem with her miss and evade counter is getting to them, not the actual counter themselves. When you have ten buffs, sure I bet it’s great. When you have the true strike, yeah works perfectly. But there’s an inherent issue with taking 70+ hits to get to a miss counter. When 90% of the content we do is over before then. And besides, being able to refresh buffs while being able to miss is not going to work very well. There’s an inherent problem with getting to an sp3 to counter evade, because you’re in danger while getting there. It’s the reason nobody used spark, cable or gamora before this buff. And it’s the reason nobody will use them to counter evade after.
    The people who have no other counters will. That's what you're missing. You're still looking at this like the outcome is meant to entice people to use her over other options. That isn't the point at all. I don't know how many times I can mention the flaws in the comparison outlook before people stop using that perspective.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,370 ★★★★★
    They also mentioned longer Fights, so looking at Fights that are over before you can get to it isn't really ideal.
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    RakeYoungRakeYoung Posts: 473 ★★★
    @GroundedWisdom you know, i think i'm finally understanding what you're saying and i agree.

    perhaps we should reserve judgement on Gamoras specific buff until it goes live, however despite that i think it is beneficial for folks to discuss how realistic it is to place such a valuable piece of utility behind parameters that are not easily achievable in game at the moment.

    ultimately that is what this thread is discussing or bringing attention to, letting Kabam know that while yes they are adding utility to Gamora, it isnt feasible to use in game.

    can we agree that voicing concern to Kabam is valid?

    if so, you've already voiced your concern with other forum users that they should wait to judge on this specific buff.

    we can now continue discussing the why we dont agree with this type of buff.

    granted it may or may not changing absolutely anything, but at the very least we will have offered Kabam our perspective as players of the game and that is the most we can do.
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