There’s a lot to this overhaul that will require gameplay to see if it’s actually good or not. I am genuinely concerned that this was a lateral move or even a nerf to some of her abilities. I am not saying it is that right now, to be clear. She could very well be a monster. But let’s compare some numbers.
Currently at sig 200: 10% chance to steal *at least* 54.99% of damage done on hit back as health. Every four souls adds an additional 54.99%.
New on base: 2% of *all damage done.* This includes bleed damage.
Difference: Original Recipe Guilly had this cool thing where she could land one big crit and practically go from near dead to full health, but it was not reliable. Only a 10% chance. So we’re trading off periodic burst healing for consistent minor healing. That will probably be a matter of personal preference as to which is better. However the new healing is not locked behind her sig ability, so that is objectively better.
Original Sp3: With a full synergy team, capable of insane damage against large health pools. I believe it was only her and to a lesser extent G2099 who could just lop percentages off of health bars in the past. Impractical for endgame content, but very cool.
New Sp3: Really hard to say if this will be better, worse, or about the same. You can place an extremely long lasting degen on the opponent through this. I don’t think it works this way, but I would love for it to be a constantly reapplying degen that consumes a soul to reapply. That would mean that you could keep gaining souls and extending the degen even longer after firing it off. I think it is more likely that you just consume all souls upon usage, which is fine, but not as fun.
Original Sp1: hits the enemy with a sword.
New Sp1: has this pain link mechanic which seems to be not terribly practical. Could be fun for nodes like Starburst or Flare or the whole Shang Chi Challenge or for suicides users, but otherwise 🤷🏻♂️ I get that the idea is to have some DoT effect that you can heal through because of your passive and toss the damage to your opponent, but I feel that late game most of those effects hitting you is a much bigger problem for you than if they share the damage to the opponent. If it halves the damage you take, then we might be onto something.
Sp2: Longer Spectre. Not a whole lot else to dive into. I’m cool with it.
Heavy: New bleed curse thing is neat to guarantee bleeds on specials.
It boils down to the numbers on her regen and her sp3. I’d have liked to see more utility in her kit, but isn’t that what we say around this time every month that a much-needed buff comes through.
Overall, I think this buff was a step in the right direction, but I’m not sure they took things far enough. Her damage will definitely get a boost with the new soul mechanic, which is certainly nice to have. The increased Spectre potency is a nice addition as well.
My problem with the buff is that it doesn’t feel like her lack of utility has been addressed. Sure, she can now get around bleed immune matches, but I believe that she will need max sig in order to get the ruptures. Her healing has also been made more reliable and consistent, however it has been made less potent compared to the current amount of healing she can get. The new pain share debuff also doesn’t seem that useful seeing as how it doesn’t offer any damage reduction while active, with the only damage I can see being purposely shared being from suicides. Also, seeing as how she’s a mystic, she still doesn’t have any form of buff control whatsoever, just buff punishment.
Ultimately, I am glad that Guillotine is getting a boost, however I just don’t think enough was fine here to really bring her up to her full potential. Maybe once I get to do some in hand testing my final opinion will be better, but based on what I see in the spotlight I’m not going to be overly optimistic.
Her SP1 looks like a worse version of Mysterio's SP1, which was already impractical to use. Is there a benefit of letting her get hit by an Energy attack or a DoT debuff?
Geez nothing will satisfy this community ever!. Devs had to figure out what buff to give her and now that they did. Half community thinks it's bad 🤦♂️. Wait till it's live the buff before judging something
You guys want op stuff go play fortnite lmao
For real. From what it is looking like I’m glad I picked Guillotine in my 6* Nexus over Morningstar.
I wonder if Kabam will ultimately understand at some point that a buff would be far more successful if they only add things, not take things away.
You can't always just add. You have to balance whatever you add among the existing Abilities. That requires reducing some things.
A character balance, sure. Like with Namor or HT or something.
But she was picked because she's a lacking character that needs more added to her to make her balanced and usable. She had a good base kit, which they could have added some more utility/abilities onto, whilst boosting up the damage of her already existing ones.
There was just no reason to scrap off old bits of kit to add others...
Everyone is an expert when it comes to character balancing, but they don't really understand what's involved. You can't just go on additives. You'd end up with Champs that would be horribly broken, and a system of never-ending catch-up. You have to consider the overall kit and what the potential is, balance that, and fit it among othe Champs and the Meta in general. TL:DR - A buff still requires rebalancing at times.
It's easy for people to say "Add more.", but they don't always consider what that effect has overall.
It's easier to tune down something than it is to tune up. And in practice many games balance this way by overtuning first and making changes soon after.
There’s a lot to this overhaul that will require gameplay to see if it’s actually good or not. I am genuinely concerned that this was a lateral move or even a nerf to some of her abilities. I am not saying it is that right now, to be clear. She could very well be a monster. But let’s compare some numbers.
Currently at sig 200: 10% chance to steal *at least* 54.99% of damage done on hit back as health. Every four souls adds an additional 54.99%.
New on base: 2% of *all damage done.* This includes bleed damage.
Difference: Original Recipe Guilly had this cool thing where she could land one big crit and practically go from near dead to full health, but it was not reliable. Only a 10% chance. So we’re trading off periodic burst healing for consistent minor healing. That will probably be a matter of personal preference as to which is better. However the new healing is not locked behind her sig ability, so that is objectively better.
Original Sp3: With a full synergy team, capable of insane damage against large health pools. I believe it was only her and to a lesser extent G2099 who could just lop percentages off of health bars in the past. Impractical for endgame content, but very cool.
New Sp3: Really hard to say if this will be better, worse, or about the same. You can place an extremely long lasting degen on the opponent through this. I don’t think it works this way, but I would love for it to be a constantly reapplying degen that consumes a soul to reapply. That would mean that you could keep gaining souls and extending the degen even longer after firing it off. I think it is more likely that you just consume all souls upon usage, which is fine, but not as fun.
Original Sp1: hits the enemy with a sword.
New Sp1: has this pain link mechanic which seems to be not terribly practical. Could be fun for nodes like Starburst or Flare or the whole Shang Chi Challenge or for suicides users, but otherwise 🤷🏻♂️ I get that the idea is to have some DoT effect that you can heal through because of your passive and toss the damage to your opponent, but I feel that late game most of those effects hitting you is a much bigger problem for you than if they share the damage to the opponent. If it halves the damage you take, then we might be onto something.
Sp2: Longer Spectre. Not a whole lot else to dive into. I’m cool with it.
Heavy: New bleed curse thing is neat to guarantee bleeds on specials.
It boils down to the numbers on her regen and her sp3. I’d have liked to see more utility in her kit, but isn’t that what we say around this time every month that a much-needed buff comes through.
The heal is a massive nerf. Vs a 60k health opponent you are healing 1.6k health. Vs a 1million health opponent, you heal 20k. The heal is a nerf, period.
EDIT: I dont disagree with you at all, just adding to your point. DOnt take it as a disagreement.
It's easy for people to say "Add more.", but they don't always consider what that effect has overall.
It's easier to tune down something than it is to tune up. And in practice many games balance this way by overtuning first and making changes soon after.
Are people actually forgetting about that her synergies could be changing since gamora synergy is pretty much in base now of when they bleed u gain a soul the gamora synergy was if hitting a bleeding champ 50% chance to get a soul and ms has timer increase on souls which now dont decrease until certain soul so most likely be changed also to reflect on the change
It's easy for people to say "Add more.", but they don't always consider what that effect has overall.
It's easier to tune down something than it is to tune up. And in practice many games balance this way by overtuning first and making changes soon after.
This is why we need betas or at least releasing buffs to the CCP first to ensure they haven’t gone overboard.
It's easy for people to say "Add more.", but they don't always consider what that effect has overall.
I don't mean to be rude, but I really don't understand why? If a character has a pretty good base kit, and people pretty much don't use them because they don't do enough damage compared to other options that do similar things, why couldn't you literally just add damage?
If you take (entirely hypothetical here) Guillotine and compare her to another character whose kit has similar things, for example Cap IW (focusing mainly on Heal Reversal and a "big damage" special attack). Throw them both into fairly vanilla fights (ROL, Abyss, Act 7.2 something with a node that doesn't really hamstring them). Compare the two's damage and say theoretically Cap ends these fights roughly 20-35% faster.
Could you not then simply just add 20-35% damage increase to Guillotines damage abilities? Why wouldn't take work? Why would that break the character? It would make her much more viable as a rank up candidate for folks who pull her.
Am I misunderstanding things here guys? It seems pretty simple to me.
It's easy for people to say "Add more.", but they don't always consider what that effect has overall.
It's easier to tune down something than it is to tune up. And in practice many games balance this way by overtuning first and making changes soon after.
This is why we need betas or at least releasing buffs to the CCP first to ensure they haven’t gone overboard.
You can't get that data from a handful of sources. You need to release them into the game and check overall, over time.
It's easy for people to say "Add more.", but they don't always consider what that effect has overall.
I don't mean to be rude, but I really don't understand why? If a character has a pretty good base kit, and people pretty much don't use them because they don't do enough damage compared to other options that do similar things, why couldn't you literally just add damage?
If you take (entirely hypothetical here) Guillotine and compare her to another character whose kit has similar things, for example Cap IW (focusing mainly on Heal Reversal and a "big damage" special attack). Throw them both into fairly vanilla fights (ROL, Abyss, Act 7.2 something with a node that doesn't really hamstring them). Compare the two's damage and say theoretically Cap ends these fights roughly 20-35% faster.
Could you not then simply just add 20-35% damage increase to Guillotines damage abilities? Why wouldn't take work? Why would that break the character? It would make her much more viable as a rank up candidate for folks who pull her.
Am I misunderstanding things here guys? It seems pretty simple to me.
That's the point I'm making. It's not that simple.
It's easy for people to say "Add more.", but they don't always consider what that effect has overall.
I don't mean to be rude, but I really don't understand why? If a character has a pretty good base kit, and people pretty much don't use them because they don't do enough damage compared to other options that do similar things, why couldn't you literally just add damage?
If you take (entirely hypothetical here) Guillotine and compare her to another character whose kit has similar things, for example Cap IW (focusing mainly on Heal Reversal and a "big damage" special attack). Throw them both into fairly vanilla fights (ROL, Abyss, Act 7.2 something with a node that doesn't really hamstring them). Compare the two's damage and say theoretically Cap ends these fights roughly 20-35% faster.
Could you not then simply just add 20-35% damage increase to Guillotines damage abilities? Why wouldn't take work? Why would that break the character? It would make her much more viable as a rank up candidate for folks who pull her.
Am I misunderstanding things here guys? It seems pretty simple to me.
That's the point I'm making. It's not that simple.
But why? Can you explain why adding roughly 20-35% damage to a character who is missing around 20-35% damage wouldn't work? It seems like simple math to me...
Just on paper this seems underwhelming considering I'm sure most people were expecting something insane like Magneto buff considering this was the fan vote and the length of time for this buff.
Hopefully I'm wrong and this is actually an insane upgrade when we actually get to test it out next month.
It's easy for people to say "Add more.", but they don't always consider what that effect has overall.
It's easier to tune down something than it is to tune up. And in practice many games balance this way by overtuning first and making changes soon after.
It's always better to err on the side of caution.
Why is better? For a newly released champ, perhaps. For a champ thats been out for years and releasing a "buff" not at all. A lot of people have Guilly already, they aren't going to cause outrage by selling her crystals and people screeching for refunds. Kabam has very little to lose by over adjusting then toning down after. However releasing something that doesn't satisfy a larger portion of their playerbase leads to a risk that people will truly believe that they don't know how to buff and balance.
It's easy for people to say "Add more.", but they don't always consider what that effect has overall.
It's easier to tune down something than it is to tune up. And in practice many games balance this way by overtuning first and making changes soon after.
This is why we need betas or at least releasing buffs to the CCP first to ensure they haven’t gone overboard.
You can't get that data from a handful of sources. You need to release them into the game and check overall, over time.
Having a beta and having feedback is better than thinking you know what others want and being shocked that people aren't happy when you release it. Some data on player feedback is better than none.
No offense but I honestly don't think you've played many live service games at all the understand how important these things are, especially when it comes to devs interacting with some of the players for legitimate feedback.
Can’t seem to copy Dr. Zola’s comment but that is how I feel with some of these buffs. I’ll hold judgement on Guilly until I play her but some of these buffs seem to be a waste of dev time/resources. Also, this game could use some excitement right now. Kabam has introduced some great OP champs but new champs take a LONG time to make it to a lot of people’s rosters (for Kitty I went 0-18 on featured cavs and arena was insane). These buffs on the other hand can make a difference much quicker. The Guilly buff does feel like an overhaul at this point. Time will tell.
I'll have to wait and see, but what I was hoping for has sadly not come to pass. She was a really fun "not really a mystic champ" mystic and I hoped that they kept a lot of that but just added some mystic utility to her kit. I really like quirky mystics like Tigra and Mojo, and I was hoping that she could join those with her own unique way of dealing with buffs.
But no. She hits things and they bleed. Unless the damage is absolutely insane, I already have champs that hit things and make them bleed. I don't need to rank her up further for that.
I'm also kind of disappointed with the change to her SP3. As it is now, before the buff, it's insane. At least in theory. I found it pretty hard to rack up enough souls to really take advantage of it, but man, when you did launch it with a bunch of souls active, it hit hard.
I don't think it would work with her new kit's indefinite souls but it still seems like a giant nerf to me. There is no way that its damage can compete with her pre-buff SP3's.
I think I'll have fun with my 5r4 version but I don't think I'll be r5'ing her and I don't think I'll be putting any more sig stones into her. Maybe I'll change my mind when I can take her out for a spin after the buff goes live but...I just don't know.
I guess it depends on how her synergies look as well. She has some great synergies, after all. If they are as good after the update, maybe that can sway me as well.
I'm not upset about her overhaul or what ever you want to call it. I think any buff to a champ is a good thing what I'm disappointed about is that this was a champ that the summoners selected both forums and arena. At first I had high expectation, the more i look at her kit the more I'm disappointed, like i don't see myself using her over Diablo, Dr. Doom, Tigra, Black Widow CV, sym supreme or Magik so if I'm saying from 1-15 she was a 13 i would say now she's an 11. For a complete players Choice Overhaul i was expecting a top 5 turn out not crazy OP but atlease as good as Diablo or a little utility. I wont waste my time with any more Votes for champs because its a let down, any one been using the great Daredevil better yet Black Panther OG ??????
It's easy for people to say "Add more.", but they don't always consider what that effect has overall.
It's easier to tune down something than it is to tune up. And in practice many games balance this way by overtuning first and making changes soon after.
It's always better to err on the side of caution.
Why is better? For a newly released champ, perhaps. For a champ thats been out for years and releasing a "buff" not at all. A lot of people have Guilly already, they aren't going to cause outrage by selling her crystals and people screeching for refunds. Kabam has very little to lose by over adjusting then toning down after. However releasing something that doesn't satisfy a larger portion of their playerbase leads to a risk that people will truly believe that they don't know how to buff and balance.
It's easy for people to say "Add more.", but they don't always consider what that effect has overall.
It's easier to tune down something than it is to tune up. And in practice many games balance this way by overtuning first and making changes soon after.
This is why we need betas or at least releasing buffs to the CCP first to ensure they haven’t gone overboard.
You can't get that data from a handful of sources. You need to release them into the game and check overall, over time.
Having a beta and having feedback is better than thinking you know what others want and being shocked that people aren't happy when you release it. Some data on player feedback is better than none.
No offense but I honestly don't think you've played many live service games at all the understand how important these things are, especially when it comes to devs interacting with some of the players for legitimate feedback.
You're confusing feedback with actual data, and I'm speaking about the data that determines whether something is overtuned or not. That can't come from a few representatives. Those are two different topics entirely.
Literally the only thing she can do now that she couldn't before is to 'share the pain' which sounds useful, but doesn't actually reduce her own pain at all. She 'shares the pain', then heals 2% of it.
It seems like a gimmick. An idea that sounds cool, but in reality doesn't actually do anything useful, since you and your opponent taking the same damage means a swift death for you. If it literally shared the pain (half for you, half for them), that would be a very different thing; and could have been awesome.
I'm going to try to withhold judgment before trying her out. But as far as I can see, she's still basically a Mystic version of X-23, and I can't see me taking her to 5/65 any time soon.
Literally the only thing she can do now that she couldn't before is to 'share the pain' which sounds useful, but doesn't actually reduce her own pain at all. She 'shares the pain', then heals 2% of it.
It seems like a gimmick. Like an idea that sounds cool, but in reality doesn't actually do anything useful, since you and your opponent taking the same damage means a swift death for you.
I'm going to try to withhold judgment before trying her out. But as far as I can see, she's still basically a Mystic version of X-23, and I can't see me taking her to 5/65 any time soon.
Probably a defensive ability: when guilly reachs ten charges she can place the debuff on special's activation, she can reflect any non-physical DOT and hit damage, and she can gain 10 charges after she loses 50% of her health (even less if you take damage during the fight), so it could be annoying to fight against with someone like torch because she would reflect all damage taken both from received hits and from incinerate/nova, as long as the debuff is on you. You can still play around it but it will be annoying for sure, i can already see it ^_^
Have we gotten any word on any Changes to her Preexisting Synergies? She has So Many Unique Synergies with Champions like Gamora/Morningstar/Guilly2099/Ronin/Many More, I'd have to assume at least Some of them were changed to affect her new abilities and one could be a game changer.
As for his Base Abilities she appears to be All Damage with Sustainability, even her Bit of Utility in the Special Attack Debuffs are also Damage Based, really couldn't have given her a little more Utility? Sword Attacks are Non Contact or something? I was really worried about them screwing with her Underrated Life Steal on the Sig and at first glance I thought my fears came true, but putting the Lid Steal on her Base now as well having be 100% Active off Every Single Bit of Damage Dealt Including Debuffs sounds Very Interesting. (Another bit of Nice Utility could've been "Thanks to the Sword's Curse Guillotine's Regeneration Rate cannot be Reduced Below 100%" because this could become a Serious Issue when fighting any matchup that Reverses Regen Passively, since there's no way to Stop the Regen from ticking Every Time you deal Any Damage)
New Sig sounds pretty nice though getting rid of the usual Immunity Issue many Bleed Champions have, and there's only a handful of Bleed Immune Champions with High Physical Resist (off the top of my head I can only think of Luke Cage) so you'll pretty much Always have a way to get those Debuffs applied at Full Potency minus Purify Matchups and Bleed Resist.
Comments
Currently at sig 200: 10% chance to steal *at least* 54.99% of damage done on hit back as health. Every four souls adds an additional 54.99%.
New on base: 2% of *all damage done.* This includes bleed damage.
Difference: Original Recipe Guilly had this cool thing where she could land one big crit and practically go from near dead to full health, but it was not reliable. Only a 10% chance. So we’re trading off periodic burst healing for consistent minor healing. That will probably be a matter of personal preference as to which is better. However the new healing is not locked behind her sig ability, so that is objectively better.
Original Sp3: With a full synergy team, capable of insane damage against large health pools. I believe it was only her and to a lesser extent G2099 who could just lop percentages off of health bars in the past. Impractical for endgame content, but very cool.
New Sp3: Really hard to say if this will be better, worse, or about the same. You can place an extremely long lasting degen on the opponent through this. I don’t think it works this way, but I would love for it to be a constantly reapplying degen that consumes a soul to reapply. That would mean that you could keep gaining souls and extending the degen even longer after firing it off. I think it is more likely that you just consume all souls upon usage, which is fine, but not as fun.
Original Sp1: hits the enemy with a sword.
New Sp1: has this pain link mechanic which seems to be not terribly practical. Could be fun for nodes like Starburst or Flare or the whole Shang Chi Challenge or for suicides users, but otherwise 🤷🏻♂️ I get that the idea is to have some DoT effect that you can heal through because of your passive and toss the damage to your opponent, but I feel that late game most of those effects hitting you is a much bigger problem for you than if they share the damage to the opponent. If it halves the damage you take, then we might be onto something.
Sp2: Longer Spectre. Not a whole lot else to dive into. I’m cool with it.
Heavy: New bleed curse thing is neat to guarantee bleeds on specials.
It boils down to the numbers on her regen and her sp3. I’d have liked to see more utility in her kit, but isn’t that what we say around this time every month that a much-needed buff comes through.
My problem with the buff is that it doesn’t feel like her lack of utility has been addressed. Sure, she can now get around bleed immune matches, but I believe that she will need max sig in order to get the ruptures. Her healing has also been made more reliable and consistent, however it has been made less potent compared to the current amount of healing she can get. The new pain share debuff also doesn’t seem that useful seeing as how it doesn’t offer any damage reduction while active, with the only damage I can see being purposely shared being from suicides. Also, seeing as how she’s a mystic, she still doesn’t have any form of buff control whatsoever, just buff punishment.
Ultimately, I am glad that Guillotine is getting a boost, however I just don’t think enough was fine here to really bring her up to her full potential. Maybe once I get to do some in hand testing my final opinion will be better, but based on what I see in the spotlight I’m not going to be overly optimistic.
For real. From what it is looking like I’m glad I picked Guillotine in my 6* Nexus over Morningstar.
TL:DR - A buff still requires rebalancing at times.
Vs a 1million health opponent, you heal 20k.
The heal is a nerf, period.
EDIT: I dont disagree with you at all, just adding to your point. DOnt take it as a disagreement.
If you take (entirely hypothetical here) Guillotine and compare her to another character whose kit has similar things, for example Cap IW (focusing mainly on Heal Reversal and a "big damage" special attack). Throw them both into fairly vanilla fights (ROL, Abyss, Act 7.2 something with a node that doesn't really hamstring them). Compare the two's damage and say theoretically Cap ends these fights roughly 20-35% faster.
Could you not then simply just add 20-35% damage increase to Guillotines damage abilities? Why wouldn't take work? Why would that break the character? It would make her much more viable as a rank up candidate for folks who pull her.
Am I misunderstanding things here guys? It seems pretty simple to me.
Hopefully I'm wrong and this is actually an insane upgrade when we actually get to test it out next month.
No offense but I honestly don't think you've played many live service games at all the understand how important these things are, especially when it comes to devs interacting with some of the players for legitimate feedback.
But no. She hits things and they bleed. Unless the damage is absolutely insane, I already have champs that hit things and make them bleed. I don't need to rank her up further for that.
I'm also kind of disappointed with the change to her SP3. As it is now, before the buff, it's insane. At least in theory. I found it pretty hard to rack up enough souls to really take advantage of it, but man, when you did launch it with a bunch of souls active, it hit hard.
I don't think it would work with her new kit's indefinite souls but it still seems like a giant nerf to me. There is no way that its damage can compete with her pre-buff SP3's.
I think I'll have fun with my 5r4 version but I don't think I'll be r5'ing her and I don't think I'll be putting any more sig stones into her. Maybe I'll change my mind when I can take her out for a spin after the buff goes live but...I just don't know.
I guess it depends on how her synergies look as well. She has some great synergies, after all. If they are as good after the update, maybe that can sway me as well.
Literally the only thing she can do now that she couldn't before is to 'share the pain' which sounds useful, but doesn't actually reduce her own pain at all. She 'shares the pain', then heals 2% of it.
It seems like a gimmick. An idea that sounds cool, but in reality doesn't actually do anything useful, since you and your opponent taking the same damage means a swift death for you. If it literally shared the pain (half for you, half for them), that would be a very different thing; and could have been awesome.
I'm going to try to withhold judgment before trying her out. But as far as I can see, she's still basically a Mystic version of X-23, and I can't see me taking her to 5/65 any time soon.
She has So Many Unique Synergies with Champions like Gamora/Morningstar/Guilly2099/Ronin/Many More, I'd have to assume at least Some of them were changed to affect her new abilities and one could be a game changer.
As for his Base Abilities she appears to be All Damage with Sustainability, even her Bit of Utility in the Special Attack Debuffs are also Damage Based, really couldn't have given her a little more Utility? Sword Attacks are Non Contact or something?
I was really worried about them screwing with her Underrated Life Steal on the Sig and at first glance I thought my fears came true, but putting the Lid Steal on her Base now as well having be 100% Active off Every Single Bit of Damage Dealt Including Debuffs sounds Very Interesting. (Another bit of Nice Utility could've been "Thanks to the Sword's Curse Guillotine's Regeneration Rate cannot be Reduced Below 100%" because this could become a Serious Issue when fighting any matchup that Reverses Regen Passively, since there's no way to Stop the Regen from ticking Every Time you deal Any Damage)
New Sig sounds pretty nice though getting rid of the usual Immunity Issue many Bleed Champions have, and there's only a handful of Bleed Immune Champions with High Physical Resist (off the top of my head I can only think of Luke Cage) so you'll pretty much Always have a way to get those Debuffs applied at Full Potency minus Purify Matchups and Bleed Resist.