AI Tweaks and the Effectiveness of Taunt

DrZola

This is, of course, purely anecdotal, but I’m finding the passive AI resistant to taunt debuffs as well. A recent case in point would be the current SQ, where Guardian’s taunt seems to me to be ineffective more times than not at getting the AI to drop its specials. She-Hulk taunt has similarly been less successful for me.

There’s ample complaining about the passive AI—but I’m concerned that the taunt debuff interaction also seems to be less effective under the current AI.

Anyone else finding this? Is there any way we could get an official comment on what some of us see in the most current AI behavior? Have there been intentional changes, or is this unintended?

Dr. Zola

CyborgNinja135

For me, the issues with the passive AI started with the current update. Enemies in 7.2 and Cavalier difficulty in EQ take longer than they should to throw their specials. I also had the same issue with Guardian when doing this week's SQ. However, I also noticed that every time I entered the quest it would be different. Sometimes Apoc would throw his specials as soon as he got a bar of power, other times I would have to dance around for almost a minute trying to bait them.
As for the She-Hulk issues, I haven't tested her too much, but the times I did, I got lucky with RNG and managed to get to 10+ furies very fast. By that point I don't think it would matter too much since the enemy was constantly throwing specials.

Riptide

I’ve noticed this too. I was playing around with spam in act 7. The ai there should be fairly aggressive, but they wouldn’t throw their specials even while taunted.

BitterSteel

Over the last few weeks I’ve noticed a dramatic decrease in defenders throwing specials. I haven’t posted about it because I wanted to be sure I wasn’t just leaning into confirmation bias. However, it’s getting to the point where I strongly believe something has changed with the AI, at least so much as how likely they are to throw specials.

I'm seeing it all over, spending double or triple the time to bait out specials, in any normal fight without passive power gain that's fine in most cases, baiting longer doesn't matter as much unless spacing is a huge issue. But if the champion is gaining power over time, it's almost a guaranteed SP3 if you have to bait any specials while they're above 2 bars of power.

Now of course, the plural of anecdotes isn't data, but in a lot of line chats I'm in I'm seeing the same story all over.

It's also not just an issue of the AI throwing specials less, but they also throw them at different moments to before. What I mean by that is that usually, you leave yourself open to bait a special, the opponent dashes at you and you sidestep them and you're open again. In those periods of leaving yourself open that is when the AI throws a special. But now, they are waiting a split second until either you're already dashing back and you are unable to dash, since you're already dashing, or at another point when you're unable to dash. This is especially noticeable against someone like Green Goblin SP2 who requires insanely precise timing.

So, I run map 7 and I take the mix master prove yourself path. We have defenders there such as Vision Classic, Cyclops, Cable and Green Goblin (also Angela but her specials aren't an issue). It is a genuine nightmare baiting specials. Vision and Cable both power gain up to Sp3s and clatter me, not to mention that Vision's Sp1 is unblockable, so when thrown at an inopportune moment, you can't even parry it. Imagine how annoying that is against prove yourself, so he just goes indestructible time and time again. I got to 14 hits 3 times last series, each time caught by a weirdly throw Sp1.

Green Goblin is the worst. I often start baiting at his side of the arena, then dash back leaving myself open time and time again and he will rarely throw it until I'm mostly in my side of the arena. The timing of Green Goblin's SP2 is even worse, because you need to predict when he's going to throw it. You can only dodge his Sp2 if you dash back, and then he throws his special which you will dex. But since baiting is so much harder, and the AI throws specials at very irregular places, he will very often just throw it towards the end of your dex, catching you completely out - no chance to dex again since your first dex animation isn't over.

This really is a huge pain, and I'd urge Kabam to look at some of their data about how often special attacks are being thrown during fights compared to an update ago.

mattress

The AI has definitely been tweaked. Not just holding specials but reaction times are faster and they got waaay better at intercepting over the last few mths. Sersei is definitely noticable. If u get hit by her sp1, she's 2-3 hits into a combo before you're even up. With the gameplay being this broken I find it odd they would mess with the AI. Multiple threads about it with no response from the team yet tho. So much for transparency

I_tell_no_tales_1

Well I had 11 furies with she hulk against caiw in cav eq but he didn't threw his specials
That's near 165% taunt

pseudosane

BitterSteel said:

Over the last few weeks I’ve noticed a dramatic decrease in defenders throwing specials. I haven’t posted about it because I wanted to be sure I wasn’t just leaning into confirmation bias. However, it’s getting to the point where I strongly believe something has changed with the AI, at least so much as how likely they are to throw specials.

I'm seeing it all over, spending double or triple the time to bait out specials, in any normal fight without passive power gain that's fine in most cases, baiting longer doesn't matter as much unless spacing is a huge issue. But if the champion is gaining power over time, it's almost a guaranteed SP3 if you have to bait any specials while they're above 2 bars of power.

Now of course, the plural of anecdotes isn't data, but in a lot of line chats I'm in I'm seeing the same story all over.

It's also not just an issue of the AI throwing specials less, but they also throw them at different moments to before. What I mean by that is that usually, you leave yourself open to bait a special, the opponent dashes at you and you sidestep them and you're open again. In those periods of leaving yourself open that is when the AI throws a special. But now, they are waiting a split second until either you're already dashing back and you are unable to dash, since you're already dashing, or at another point when you're unable to dash. This is especially noticeable against someone like Green Goblin SP2 who requires insanely precise timing.

So, I run map 7 and I take the mix master prove yourself path. We have defenders there such as Vision Classic, Cyclops, Cable and Green Goblin (also Angela but her specials aren't an issue). It is a genuine nightmare baiting specials. Vision and Cable both power gain up to Sp3s and clatter me, not to mention that Vision's Sp1 is unblockable, so when thrown at an inopportune moment, you can't even parry it. Imagine how annoying that is against prove yourself, so he just goes indestructible time and time again. I got to 14 hits 3 times last series, each time caught by a weirdly throw Sp1.

Green Goblin is the worst. I often start baiting at his side of the arena, then dash back leaving myself open time and time again and he will rarely throw it until I'm mostly in my side of the arena. The timing of Green Goblin's SP2 is even worse, because you need to predict when he's going to throw it. You can only dodge his Sp2 if you dash back, and then he throws his special which you will dex. But since baiting is so much harder, and the AI throws specials at very irregular places, he will very often just throw it towards the end of your dex, catching you completely out - no chance to dex again since your first dex animation isn't over.

This really is a huge pain, and I'd urge Kabam to look at some of their data about how often special attacks are being thrown during fights compared to an update ago.

I take this lane and it is an absolute nightmare recently. AI just refuses to throw specials making it unbelievably frustrating and long.

Deacon

the throwing of specials is DEFINITELY annoying now .... I bait literally 7+ times .. hitting into block etc and nothing.

DawsMan

I haven't been playing much but I've noticed this as well. If I go for a light intercept and it doesnt connect most times I have time to either dash back or block, but the AI punishes very quickly. Also easy to get intercepted during a medium intercept attempt. I've quit out of Cav eq a couple times just because of champs not throwing their specials.

DrZola

DawsMan said:

I haven't been playing much but I've noticed this as well. If I go for a light intercept and it doesnt connect most times I have time to either dash back or block, but the AI punishes very quickly. Also easy to get intercepted during a medium intercept attempt. I've quit out of Cav eq a couple times just because of champs not throwing their specials.

You still try light intercepts?

Brave soul…

Dr. Zola

mostlyharmlessn

DrZola said:

This is, of course, purely anecdotal, but I’m finding the passive AI resistant to taunt debuffs as well. A recent case in point would be the current SQ, where Guardian’s taunt seems to me to be ineffective more times than not at getting the AI to drop its specials. She-Hulk taunt has similarly been less successful for me.

There’s ample complaining about the passive AI—but I’m concerned that the taunt debuff interaction also seems to be less effective under the current AI.

Anyone else finding this? Is there any way we could get an official comment on what some of us see in the most current AI behavior? Have there been intentional changes, or is this unintended?

Dr. Zola

I'm sure this will be fixed with an updated description that the taunt debuff is actually meant to taunt you into attacking such that it guarantees you will be hit by the AI.

DrZola

Since this thread has now been moved to the Bugs page, is it safe to assume the changes experienced with the AI are being looked into?

Whoever moved the thread—care to comment?

Dr. Zola

BitterSteel

Any word on whether this is being looked into? The AI is behaving so weirdly at the moment

DrZola

Well, it looks like Zibiit edited the thread so he’s been around. Anyone who would like to tag him go ahead—he doesn’t tend to respond to me.

Dr. Zola

dot_ditto

DrZola said:

This is, of course, purely anecdotal, but I’m finding the passive AI resistant to taunt debuffs as well. A recent case in point would be the current SQ, where Guardian’s taunt seems to me to be ineffective more times than not at getting the AI to drop its specials. She-Hulk taunt has similarly been less successful for me.

There’s ample complaining about the passive AI—but I’m concerned that the taunt debuff interaction also seems to be less effective under the current AI.

Anyone else finding this? Is there any way we could get an official comment on what some of us see in the most current AI behavior? Have there been intentional changes, or is this unintended?

Dr. Zola

Agreed, I've used Mr. F ... I've tossed sp1, applied taunt, and the AI just turtles up in the corner and waits the debuff out .. O.o

Riptide

DrZola said:

Well, it looks like Zibiit edited the thread so he’s been around. Anyone who would like to tag him go ahead—he doesn’t tend to respond to me.

Dr. Zola

@Kabam Zibiit

Danemo666

Communication is key, I have seen other posts regarding this issue. Plenty have noticed a change with AI. The silence on this is frustrating. At least some form of acknowledgement on players concerns, would be better than nothing at all.

DrZola

If I’m not mistaken, this is one of the sources of complaint for Worknprogress’ post, as well as the battery of posts regarding AQ changes.

I don’t want to spend more time in game for the same things. I don’t mind challenge or having to test things to find a solution.

But the AI changes are pretty evident to everyone. They seem meant to slow the fights down and to increase the amount of time spent teasing specials (which involves mechanics like dex and can create issues with the newly proficient AI that shallow evades and special intercepts).

We are past the point of “was there a change” in my view. The better inquiry is whether the AI change was done in the face of the problems with the dex/parry bugs or whether it was more of a programmatic change scheduled months ago.

Dr. Zola

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Riptide

Had a really bad experience in war yesterday.

I was fighting Mr. Negative with falcon on a Power Start 1/ Enhanced Sp1 node. I baited until he hit 3 bars, then died.

The worst part? I had 2 hits, Mr. N had 1 on me. His gained power was from me hitting his block to get out of the corner

gforcefan

BitterSteel said:

It's also not just an issue of the AI throwing specials less, but they also throw them at different moments to before. What I mean by that is that usually, you leave yourself open to bait a special, the opponent dashes at you and you sidestep them and you're open again. In those periods of leaving yourself open that is when the AI throws a special. But now, they are waiting a split second until either you're already dashing back and you are unable to dash, since you're already dashing, or at another point when you're unable to dash. This is especially noticeable against someone like Green Goblin SP2 who requires insanely precise timing.

This is a great description of the problem. Doing normal baiting procedures doesn't work. Then they finally throw it when you are stuck in between.

Magrailothos

BitterSteel said:

The timing of Green Goblin's SP2 is even worse, because you need to predict when he's going to throw it. You can only dodge his Sp2 if you dash back, and then he throws his special which you will dex. But since baiting is so much harder, and the AI throws specials at very irregular places, he will very often just throw it towards the end of your dex, catching you completely out - no chance to dex again since your first dex animation isn't over.

I agree, the 'feel' is AI is more passive; even using She-hulk with 2-3 Furies.

My main take-home from this thread, though, is a feeling of relief that other people are finding GG's SP2 as difficult to Dex as I do...

KnightZero

Is this going to be addressed? Or swept under the rug as usual? It is getting very irritating to fight champs in war with passive AI followed by a garbage global called High Ground.

And there can't be anything said that the AI hasn't changed. It has and we know it.

Rasilover

The AI throw more heavies than specials

Fryday

Rasilover said:

The AI throw more heavies than specials

What I find is the AI throw Heavy and follow very quickly with SP, I mean extremely quick. Got caught so many time, as I thought my hit already landed (that my combo started) , but nope get hit in the face

DrZola

Honestly, it is hard to escape the belief that the game has gotten away from the people remaining on the team. I realize there’s a lot to fix—game engine in particular—but the combined effect of everything just feels too overwhelming.

There’s supposed to be a memory leak update Oct/Nov if I recall correctly. AI behavior is strangely passive. AQ is janky for quite a few maps this week. Variant 8 was buggy. That’s just top of mind for me at this moment.

I don’t envy the team the task ahead of them. And I do think Kabam Boo is trying to make the best of a bad situation (so I don’t blame her or Miike for not being able to provide resolution or answers). But I do think the parts of the team that know what’s going on should arm Boo and Miike with a little more info. As it stands now, most of the official responses to issues don’t inspire my confidence.

Dr. Zola

KnightZero

Bumping this thread to keep it on the top. All aspects of the game are being affected by this and it's really annoying to have to wait over 1-1.5 minutes just to make the defender throw a special. And only to get intercepted with it when you go to hit into their block.

MSRDLD

I feel like sometimes you get an all or nothing AI from the get go and there’s nothing you can do about it except die.

Camby01

DrZola said:

Honestly, it is hard to escape the belief that the game has gotten away from the people remaining on the team. I realize there’s a lot to fix—game engine in particular—but the combined effect of everything just feels too overwhelming.

There’s supposed to be a memory leak update Oct/Nov if I recall correctly. AI behavior is strangely passive. AQ is janky for quite a few maps this week. Variant 8 was buggy. That’s just top of mind for me at this moment.

I don’t envy the team the task ahead of them. And I do think Kabam Boo is trying to make the best of a bad situation (so I don’t blame her or Miike for not being able to provide resolution or answers). But I do think the parts of the team that know what’s going on should arm Boo and Miike with a little more info. As it stands now, most of the official responses to issues don’t inspire my confidence.

Dr. Zola

From a purely business stand point. I think that the mods fall into a fairly predictable pattern. It's not fair of us, as a community to expect immediate answers on every bug that crops up, sometimes all too often. They are mods, not devs.
That said, a more proactive (hate that word) approach to the situations that do happen seems in order. They seem to disappear sometimes to get an official word/update?!? I don't know why, but it feels off-putting.
If a customer (internal or external) asks me a question, I do my best to get a prompt response. If can't, then I promise to get back to them in a specified time, regardless if I have an answer or not, then give a new time/date, just to let them know I am still working on it. Then I actually do that. More communication would be a great start to try to regain some trust from the playerbase. My two cents.

mostlyharmlessn

Fully expecting a "We investigated this and it is working as intended. Taunt debuff only increases the likelihood of the AI throwing a special. Other factors like debuff immunity, AAR, ect., reduce the effectiveness of Taunt debuff and therefore it is working ad expected."