An Update to Balancing in MCOC!

Kade7175

So after some time with this and seeing this isnt going to overhaul older champs like 12.0 did. I mean im cool with it. I think it could be really cool to see the designers push what champs can do and with that maybe itll go too far and if they need to dial it back im sure it will make sense. But im optimistic about this new thing we may see some awesome champs come out this year. And sure theres a chance the new champs might get tuned down a bit like shang chi with those stuns.

I am still disappointed that there was a cost, being the champ reworks that's a tough one.

I mean right now all we can do is wait and see how the first 2 go in march. Nothing is really gonna happen today.

I would recommend that the team look at a refresh of rewards or maybe like a febuary reward boost or something to spice it up for us in the mean time.

BigBlueOx

The forum teams need the team crafting daily cards timing communications... imagine if this news was dropped today lol. Nah this idea still seems like a boat made outta Swiss cheese. Really want to be wrong on this one though

Destroy4589

So many new irrelevant initiatives while old promises have just been forgotten. Where is mastery 2.0? Solo competitive mode? Interesting content? Paradoxes were stale and boring yet 7.4 continues with it. Act 7 rewards have been a joke. Reworks have been nerfed to the ground and you cannot even guarantee that two reworks will happen per month. Instead, we get a rating system that in no way will accurately help describe the usefulness of a champion. How do you rate something like an Aegon or a champion heavily reliant on sig ability or synergies? The only good thing out of 2021 was the reworks and summer of pain.

benshb

It's so amazing that we don't get ANY response to these points stated against the idea, while I'm 100% that they are watching this thread every day.

Nightkiller7314

i'm sure if they touch any old champion like: ghost, quake, doom, herc, etc. many people will rage quit the game

leftykiller8

Kabam, I’m really excited that you’re involving an experienced member of the community for this initiative. What I would advise though, is to listen to other experienced members of the community. Both Seatin and Brian Grant have released videos about this update, and Seatin’s is extremely well thought out and gives excellent constructive feedback. Building a ranking system sells your game short. MCOC is an incredibly complex game with over 200 champs and a crazy amount of node combinations. Blanket statements on damage or utility will not help out. For example, while you say that Magik is easy to use, she takes a skilled player plus her awakened ability to be able to use well and survive long with. Most of the time you need a specific piece of utility to get past a challenge. Such as bleed immunity to negate a caltrops node. Updating your “tags” system to allow players to search for a bleed immune champ would help players. This way they don’t have to rely on their own knowledge or force them to manually research information. Even as an experienced player, I was trying to do this to find a poison immune champ to upgrade and was disappointed in a lack of way to filter them out for easy viewing. As an added point, your champion buffs were already helping to balance out the game. Use this experienced community member that you have hired, to give better feedback on characters that need buffs, and how best to do it. Kabam, please listen to your community and focus your efforts where they best benefit all new, progressing, and experienced players.

GroundedWisdom

leftykiller8 said:

Kabam, I’m really excited that you’re involving an experienced member of the community for this initiative. What I would advise though, is to listen to other experienced members of the community. Both Seatin and Brian Grant have released videos about this update, and Seatin’s is extremely well thought out and gives excellent constructive feedback. Building a ranking system sells your game short. MCOC is an incredibly complex game with over 200 champs and a crazy amount of node combinations. Blanket statements on damage or utility will not help out. For example, while you say that Magik is easy to use, she takes a skilled player plus her awakened ability to be able to use well and survive long with. Most of the time you need a specific piece of utility to get past a challenge. Such as bleed immunity to negate a caltrops node. Updating your “tags” system to allow players to search for a bleed immune champ would help players. This way they don’t have to rely on their own knowledge or force them to manually research information. Even as an experienced player, I was trying to do this to find a poison immune champ to upgrade and was disappointed in a lack of way to filter them out for easy viewing. As an added point, your champion buffs were already helping to balance out the game. Use this experienced community member that you have hired, to give better feedback on characters that need buffs, and how best to do it. Kabam, please listen to your community and focus your efforts where they best benefit all new, progressing, and experienced players.

Not to be that guy, but....
Isn't Seatin the one who came up with Tier Lists? Don't you see the irony in that statement?

Kabam Miike

benshb said:

It's so amazing that we don't get ANY response to these points stated against the idea, while I'm 100% that they are watching this thread every day.

We've been replying to any valid questions, but also aren't going to be repeating ourselves or commenting on things that are off-topic, as most of the comments have been after the first day or two.

Chovner

Oh nice you are actively watching the posts, so I'll re-post my question that I don't think anyone from the game team replied to. I think this question is valid, hasn't been answered yet and is completely on topic (see below):

"@Kabam Miike will you comment on why the focus isn’t more towards buffing the old champs already in the game that people have and want to be able to use more? Why is it more important for you guys to focus mainly on the newly released rarer champs?
If your goal is game balance and community enjoyment then wouldn’t you agree you’re going at this backwards?"

Thanks

Doctorwho13

Chovner said:

Oh nice you are actively watching the posts, so I'll re-post my question that I don't think anyone from the game team replied to. I think this question is valid, hasn't been answered yet and is completely on topic (see below):

"@Kabam Miike will you comment on why the focus isn’t more towards buffing the old champs already in the game that people have and want to be able to use more? Why is it more important for you guys to focus mainly on the newly released rarer champs?
If your goal is game balance and community enjoyment then wouldn’t you agree you’re going at this backwards?"

Thanks

That’s 3 questions and the last one is leading and no one with a good sense of public relations would answer it.

AverageDesi

Chovner said:

Oh nice you are actively watching the posts, so I'll re-post my question that I don't think anyone from the game team replied to. I think this question is valid, hasn't been answered yet and is completely on topic (see below):

"@Kabam Miike will you comment on why the focus isn’t more towards buffing the old champs already in the game that people have and want to be able to use more? Why is it more important for you guys to focus mainly on the newly released rarer champs?
If your goal is game balance and community enjoyment then wouldn’t you agree you’re going at this backwards?"

Thanks

Good luck getting loaded questions answered

Chovner

I think it would go a long way for them to answer my valid loaded question(s) in a way that shows they've considered the main concern of the question (which is a very real concern/opinion) and gives and honest transparent position they have on the subject. Dodging that question and ignoring it repeatedly shows they're hiding any real intentions, but that's just my opinion.
One of the recurring concerns in the 18 pages of replies is concerning the existing buff system that's been mostly a positive monthly event that the community looks forward to, and gives great value to existing champs in our rosters. If the balance system was announced as an ADDITION to the buff system, then I don't think you'd have as much public outcry. Ex: "We've added a team with a popular community streamer that will focus on balancing new champs introduced to the game, BUT this won't affect the current successful old champs monthly buffs you've come to expect and love. Focus on the new balance system will not hinder the monthly buff system, so don't worry we'll keep working our way through our older underperforming champs to bring them all up to the current game META as quickly as possible!"

BigBlueOx

GroundedWisdom said:

leftykiller8 said:

Kabam, I’m really excited that you’re involving an experienced member of the community for this initiative. What I would advise though, is to listen to other experienced members of the community. Both Seatin and Brian Grant have released videos about this update, and Seatin’s is extremely well thought out and gives excellent constructive feedback. Building a ranking system sells your game short. MCOC is an incredibly complex game with over 200 champs and a crazy amount of node combinations. Blanket statements on damage or utility will not help out. For example, while you say that Magik is easy to use, she takes a skilled player plus her awakened ability to be able to use well and survive long with. Most of the time you need a specific piece of utility to get past a challenge. Such as bleed immunity to negate a caltrops node. Updating your “tags” system to allow players to search for a bleed immune champ would help players. This way they don’t have to rely on their own knowledge or force them to manually research information. Even as an experienced player, I was trying to do this to find a poison immune champ to upgrade and was disappointed in a lack of way to filter them out for easy viewing. As an added point, your champion buffs were already helping to balance out the game. Use this experienced community member that you have hired, to give better feedback on characters that need buffs, and how best to do it. Kabam, please listen to your community and focus your efforts where they best benefit all new, progressing, and experienced players.

Not to be that guy, but....
Isn't Seatin the one who came up with Tier Lists? Don't you see the irony in that statement?

Don’t you see how this comment is irrelevant to the point of the commenter?

And to your point who better to weigh in on the flaws and inefficiency of rating systems in a game this complex. Maybe someone who used to build and maintain a system like this and then discontinued that practice?

GroundedWisdom

BigBlueOx said:

GroundedWisdom said:

leftykiller8 said:

Kabam, I’m really excited that you’re involving an experienced member of the community for this initiative. What I would advise though, is to listen to other experienced members of the community. Both Seatin and Brian Grant have released videos about this update, and Seatin’s is extremely well thought out and gives excellent constructive feedback. Building a ranking system sells your game short. MCOC is an incredibly complex game with over 200 champs and a crazy amount of node combinations. Blanket statements on damage or utility will not help out. For example, while you say that Magik is easy to use, she takes a skilled player plus her awakened ability to be able to use well and survive long with. Most of the time you need a specific piece of utility to get past a challenge. Such as bleed immunity to negate a caltrops node. Updating your “tags” system to allow players to search for a bleed immune champ would help players. This way they don’t have to rely on their own knowledge or force them to manually research information. Even as an experienced player, I was trying to do this to find a poison immune champ to upgrade and was disappointed in a lack of way to filter them out for easy viewing. As an added point, your champion buffs were already helping to balance out the game. Use this experienced community member that you have hired, to give better feedback on characters that need buffs, and how best to do it. Kabam, please listen to your community and focus your efforts where they best benefit all new, progressing, and experienced players.

Not to be that guy, but....
Isn't Seatin the one who came up with Tier Lists? Don't you see the irony in that statement?

Don’t you see how this comment is irrelevant to the point of the commenter?

And to your point who better to weigh in on the flaws and inefficiency of rating systems in a game this complex. Maybe someone who used to build and maintain a system like this and then discontinued that practice?

Actually, my comment relates directly to it. I could even go so far as to explain how relying solely on the opinions of a select few content creators leads to a great deal of blindness when it comes to usefulness. However, that somewhat takes away from the awareness that Players have through their own experience.
People have had questions about the process of what they're looking at, and what the goals are for these changes. What they're instituting is a system that will further explain that. It's not going to take the form of "This Champ sucks. That one is OP."
I have no issues with specific YouTubers themselves. I respect what they do and what people enjoy. What I do take note of is the side-effects of adhering to a sliding scale in popularity. If you have a best, you have a worst by default. As long as people hold on to that mentality, they're seldom going to align with the perspective Kabam holds. It's not that binary.

GroundedWisdom

Eb0ny-O-M4w said:

The P2W and money offers are destroying the balance in the game.

We need something to be made in regards of it. This is a much bigger issue than the champions abilities

What balance are you referring to? If the goal was to balance everything F2P Players have with P2P, there wouldn't be a point in selling anything. Take away the money they make, and you end up with something that is riddled with Ads and the quality of Farmville. I understand that you have feelings on spending, but there is no competition between spending and non-spending. One makes the game possible for the other, in even the most indirect sense.

Worknprogress

BigBlueOx said:

Eb0ny-O-M4w said:

The P2W and money offers are destroying the balance in the game.

We need something to be made in regards of it. This is a much bigger issue than the champions abilities

Completely agree, this is the balancing we need. Spenders are most definitely needed and there’s nothing wrong with it but the playable content that offers up comparable rewards is sorely lacking. It’s at a point where my daily card nets me more valuable rewards than all EQ and side quest content combined in January. That’s way outta wack

That's how games like this work though. You don't incentivize spending by offering up what you'd normally earn in a couple of weeks for $50. I'm not really sure what type of game some players think they're playing. It's not supposed to be an even playing field or no one would spend, or at least certainly not as many would.

nelsonroa

Without much detour, this would be nonsense! instead of solving more important things, they want to be playing good and new champions. better keep improving the old characters every month!

Ｓｈｙ

GroundedWisdom said:

I think that's actually a good addition, especially for Players who have questions about the strengths of Champions.

I understand what you mean but i feel like i would stop players from coming to discord or youtube or even the forums etc.. because they would already have those things in game there would be no point

GroundedWisdom

Ｓｈｙ said:

GroundedWisdom said:

I think that's actually a good addition, especially for Players who have questions about the strengths of Champions.

I understand what you mean but i feel like i would stop players from coming to discord or youtube or even the forums etc.. because they would already have those things in game there would be no point

If there's one thing I've learned in 6+ years of playing, it's that people will agree or disagree as they see fit. Nothing about this is going to change that. People will still communicate their own ideas and findings and Kabam has always praised them for doing so, so it's not likely they want to discourage that.
It's a visual representation of their goals. That's about it. I'm sure there will be a plethora of conversations on how people don't agree with their Ratings (specifically and not in the general sense), and that's great. We're always free to give our feedback.
I realize that people are disappointed in the overhaul program being altered, and I'm not taking away from their views on that. I'm simply pointing out that a Rating System is not a change to anything. In Layman's Terms, it's Kabam reviewing their own product and putting it on display.

AverageDesi

Chovner said:

Oh nice you are actively watching the posts, so I'll re-post my question that I don't think anyone from the game team replied to. I think this question is valid, hasn't been answered yet and is completely on topic (see below):

"@Kabam Miike will you comment on why the focus isn’t more towards buffing the old champs already in the game that people have and want to be able to use more? Why is it more important for you guys to focus mainly on the newly released rarer champs?
If your goal is game balance and community enjoyment then wouldn’t you agree you’re going at this backwards?"

Thanks

Good luck getting loaded questions answered

GroundedWisdom said:

leftykiller8 said:

Kabam, I’m really excited that you’re involving an experienced member of the community for this initiative. What I would advise though, is to listen to other experienced members of the community. Both Seatin and Brian Grant have released videos about this update, and Seatin’s is extremely well thought out and gives excellent constructive feedback. Building a ranking system sells your game short. MCOC is an incredibly complex game with over 200 champs and a crazy amount of node combinations. Blanket statements on damage or utility will not help out. For example, while you say that Magik is easy to use, she takes a skilled player plus her awakened ability to be able to use well and survive long with. Most of the time you need a specific piece of utility to get past a challenge. Such as bleed immunity to negate a caltrops node. Updating your “tags” system to allow players to search for a bleed immune champ would help players. This way they don’t have to rely on their own knowledge or force them to manually research information. Even as an experienced player, I was trying to do this to find a poison immune champ to upgrade and was disappointed in a lack of way to filter them out for easy viewing. As an added point, your champion buffs were already helping to balance out the game. Use this experienced community member that you have hired, to give better feedback on characters that need buffs, and how best to do it. Kabam, please listen to your community and focus your efforts where they best benefit all new, progressing, and experienced players.

Not to be that guy, but....
Isn't Seatin the one who came up with Tier Lists? Don't you see the irony in that statement?

Since when does seatin decide which champs should be buffed based on his tier list? And it's not a tier list either way but a scoring system

GroundedWisdom

AverageDesi said:

Chovner said:

Oh nice you are actively watching the posts, so I'll re-post my question that I don't think anyone from the game team replied to. I think this question is valid, hasn't been answered yet and is completely on topic (see below):

"@Kabam Miike will you comment on why the focus isn’t more towards buffing the old champs already in the game that people have and want to be able to use more? Why is it more important for you guys to focus mainly on the newly released rarer champs?
If your goal is game balance and community enjoyment then wouldn’t you agree you’re going at this backwards?"

Thanks

Good luck getting loaded questions answered

GroundedWisdom said:

leftykiller8 said:

Kabam, I’m really excited that you’re involving an experienced member of the community for this initiative. What I would advise though, is to listen to other experienced members of the community. Both Seatin and Brian Grant have released videos about this update, and Seatin’s is extremely well thought out and gives excellent constructive feedback. Building a ranking system sells your game short. MCOC is an incredibly complex game with over 200 champs and a crazy amount of node combinations. Blanket statements on damage or utility will not help out. For example, while you say that Magik is easy to use, she takes a skilled player plus her awakened ability to be able to use well and survive long with. Most of the time you need a specific piece of utility to get past a challenge. Such as bleed immunity to negate a caltrops node. Updating your “tags” system to allow players to search for a bleed immune champ would help players. This way they don’t have to rely on their own knowledge or force them to manually research information. Even as an experienced player, I was trying to do this to find a poison immune champ to upgrade and was disappointed in a lack of way to filter them out for easy viewing. As an added point, your champion buffs were already helping to balance out the game. Use this experienced community member that you have hired, to give better feedback on characters that need buffs, and how best to do it. Kabam, please listen to your community and focus your efforts where they best benefit all new, progressing, and experienced players.

Not to be that guy, but....
Isn't Seatin the one who came up with Tier Lists? Don't you see the irony in that statement?

Since when does seatin decide which champs should be buffed based on his tier list? And it's not a tier list either way but a scoring system

That's not really what I said. I said when people subscribe to a binary point of view, they have a hard time seeing anything outside of that. Really has nothing to do with Seatin. The OP suggested that building a Ranking System sells the game short and cited Seatin and BG. I pointed out the irony because Seatin devised the OG Ranking System. Lol. Nothing against him really.

AverageDesi

GroundedWisdom said:

AverageDesi said:

Chovner said:

Oh nice you are actively watching the posts, so I'll re-post my question that I don't think anyone from the game team replied to. I think this question is valid, hasn't been answered yet and is completely on topic (see below):

"@Kabam Miike will you comment on why the focus isn’t more towards buffing the old champs already in the game that people have and want to be able to use more? Why is it more important for you guys to focus mainly on the newly released rarer champs?
If your goal is game balance and community enjoyment then wouldn’t you agree you’re going at this backwards?"

Thanks

Good luck getting loaded questions answered

GroundedWisdom said:

leftykiller8 said:

Kabam, I’m really excited that you’re involving an experienced member of the community for this initiative. What I would advise though, is to listen to other experienced members of the community. Both Seatin and Brian Grant have released videos about this update, and Seatin’s is extremely well thought out and gives excellent constructive feedback. Building a ranking system sells your game short. MCOC is an incredibly complex game with over 200 champs and a crazy amount of node combinations. Blanket statements on damage or utility will not help out. For example, while you say that Magik is easy to use, she takes a skilled player plus her awakened ability to be able to use well and survive long with. Most of the time you need a specific piece of utility to get past a challenge. Such as bleed immunity to negate a caltrops node. Updating your “tags” system to allow players to search for a bleed immune champ would help players. This way they don’t have to rely on their own knowledge or force them to manually research information. Even as an experienced player, I was trying to do this to find a poison immune champ to upgrade and was disappointed in a lack of way to filter them out for easy viewing. As an added point, your champion buffs were already helping to balance out the game. Use this experienced community member that you have hired, to give better feedback on characters that need buffs, and how best to do it. Kabam, please listen to your community and focus your efforts where they best benefit all new, progressing, and experienced players.

Not to be that guy, but....
Isn't Seatin the one who came up with Tier Lists? Don't you see the irony in that statement?

Since when does seatin decide which champs should be buffed based on his tier list? And it's not a tier list either way but a scoring system

That's not really what I said. I said when people subscribe to a binary point of view, they have a hard time seeing anything outside of that. Really has nothing to do with Seatin. The OP suggested that building a Ranking System sells the game short and cited Seatin and BG. I pointed out the irony because Seatin devised the OG Ranking System. Lol. Nothing against him really.

A player doing it to guide other players and kabam doing it to balance champions are two very very different things. No irony there

GroundedWisdom

AverageDesi said:

GroundedWisdom said:

AverageDesi said:

Chovner said:

Oh nice you are actively watching the posts, so I'll re-post my question that I don't think anyone from the game team replied to. I think this question is valid, hasn't been answered yet and is completely on topic (see below):

"@Kabam Miike will you comment on why the focus isn’t more towards buffing the old champs already in the game that people have and want to be able to use more? Why is it more important for you guys to focus mainly on the newly released rarer champs?
If your goal is game balance and community enjoyment then wouldn’t you agree you’re going at this backwards?"

Thanks

Good luck getting loaded questions answered

GroundedWisdom said:

leftykiller8 said:

Kabam, I’m really excited that you’re involving an experienced member of the community for this initiative. What I would advise though, is to listen to other experienced members of the community. Both Seatin and Brian Grant have released videos about this update, and Seatin’s is extremely well thought out and gives excellent constructive feedback. Building a ranking system sells your game short. MCOC is an incredibly complex game with over 200 champs and a crazy amount of node combinations. Blanket statements on damage or utility will not help out. For example, while you say that Magik is easy to use, she takes a skilled player plus her awakened ability to be able to use well and survive long with. Most of the time you need a specific piece of utility to get past a challenge. Such as bleed immunity to negate a caltrops node. Updating your “tags” system to allow players to search for a bleed immune champ would help players. This way they don’t have to rely on their own knowledge or force them to manually research information. Even as an experienced player, I was trying to do this to find a poison immune champ to upgrade and was disappointed in a lack of way to filter them out for easy viewing. As an added point, your champion buffs were already helping to balance out the game. Use this experienced community member that you have hired, to give better feedback on characters that need buffs, and how best to do it. Kabam, please listen to your community and focus your efforts where they best benefit all new, progressing, and experienced players.

Not to be that guy, but....
Isn't Seatin the one who came up with Tier Lists? Don't you see the irony in that statement?

Since when does seatin decide which champs should be buffed based on his tier list? And it's not a tier list either way but a scoring system

That's not really what I said. I said when people subscribe to a binary point of view, they have a hard time seeing anything outside of that. Really has nothing to do with Seatin. The OP suggested that building a Ranking System sells the game short and cited Seatin and BG. I pointed out the irony because Seatin devised the OG Ranking System. Lol. Nothing against him really.

A player doing it to guide other players and kabam doing it to balance champions are two very very different things. No irony there

Once again, I said it has nothing to do with him personally. I've maintained the same stance for years. It's great to get a gauge and have some entertainment. However, sticking to it as gospel is detrimental. We can't really deny that's been the case for many people. Looking at ANY ONE perspective is limiting.
As for Kabam, they have every right to use whatever measure they choose to improve their product.

Moreno3005

This is extremely disappointing.

There are too many other things in the game that require polish. The game needs stability.

Introducing new features could compound existing issues and overload operational staff even further.

This is something that should be implemented down the track.

It won’t make a difference if I get Iron Patriot. I will either play him and learn quickly that he is not very useful, or I will look at an unnecessary rating system that will tell me the same thing. Neither of those are better than the developers actually buffing the poor bloke.

IMO, a rating system will not entice new players to keep playing, let alone existing and long standing members.

Joker1976

A good example of this is that almost all the overhaul champs or the half reworked champs are all worth rank up investment and have become relevant in the game,..even if they are not always someone’s “first choice”,.they can always be a option…I may just R3 my 6* vulture,..still not the best or my first choice ,.,but a very useful champ in the game now and more fun to use….good example right there.

Odachi

"We want players to be excited about the possibilities every new Champion presents, and a new Balance system gives us the opportunity to be more ambitious with new designs, or tune-up Champions that maybe were not ambitious enough! "

Furthermore, the older champions which we know aren't balance and fan favourites we've deliberately kept them out of the 6* program for the last 4 years so they could be obtained through intentionally targetted transaction campaigns instead of being released with the others.

How can kabam claim to be on side of the players like this then try to get $50 for a chance at a 2017 champion who now has an extra star.

GroundedWisdom

Odachi said:

"We want players to be excited about the possibilities every new Champion presents, and a new Balance system gives us the opportunity to be more ambitious with new designs, or tune-up Champions that maybe were not ambitious enough! "

Furthermore, the older champions which we know aren't balance and fan favourites we've deliberately kept them out of the 6* program for the last 4 years so they could be obtained through intentionally targetted transaction campaigns instead of being released with the others.

How can kabam claim to be on side of the players like this then try to get $50 for a chance at a 2017 champion who now has an extra star.

Selling a chance at new Champions is not new. Old, yes. New as a 6*, and one of the most requested. The game isn't going to stop running because the buff program has changed.

GroundedWisdom

Also, as an addendum, they weren't intentionally left out to make money. They were cautiously added because a number of them are already powerful.

TheCoverGirl

I usually spend between 500-1500 a month on the game. Characters that may get reworked totally AFTER I get them BECAUSE they weren't properly tested isn't something that makes me feel comfortable spending on anymore. That feels like bait and switch to me. As part of the spending community. We don't want this change.