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Removal of Revive Farming and the Apothecary Discussion

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    JefechutaJefechuta Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    Moosetiptronic, Im not gonna quote you because it is bugged but; If you have the right champs or most of them you should be able to do the runs, I have between 50% and 75% of 6* avaible but I lack a lot of the needed on the challenges so Im waiting, for what you are saying you have most of them so you should be able to do the run without spending more than 50 revives, which you can get perfectly in a 2 week timelapse without farming revives.

    I dont see the problem here, really.

    I dont have Herc, Scarlet Witch, the Spideys but Stealthy one, Dragonman, Galan, Hood, Prof X and Cap Marvel, and probably some other options, the same way I was lucky on Summer of Pain or the last EoP events because I had most of the best options, I dont have'em now, so I have to wait.

    I dont think EoP rewards will lose importance for a year at least, why should I hurry myself?

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    MoosetiptronicMoosetiptronic Posts: 2,136 ★★★★
    @Jefechuta I have 155 6,* including herc and my 6* are lucky; I'm missing a lot of terrible champions.

    My average was around 50 revives. Possibly slightly over, mainly because the left lane is so punishing for me at least.

    As I mentioned in my write up posted separately, I could halve the revives count if I could heal to full. I'm guessing 30 odd average if I'd solely used lv2 revives and a lot of heals.

    But I'm definitely in the "decidedly average" group of players skill wise.

    Would I have done it, if it was solely farming units instead? Perhaps. I would have also gone back to farming revives in later acts, just as I did for the Grandmaster and abyss. It would maybe have taken me longer, but trust me, there are MANY paragons like me, who would simply find another way to farm for the resources.

    So what does this change achieve? Will people no longer farm revives to trivialise content?? Nope, we will still do it.

    My bet is that it will be counter productive and cost kabam money in missed spend, if my alliance is anything to go by.

    However... Neither of us, or anyone on these forums knows!

    I'm just adding my thoughts as a late-ish game paragon, who has done them; having the best counters at R3/R4 did not really help with keeping the revive count down ...
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    Manup456Manup456 Posts: 887 ★★★★
    edited March 2023
    @TheTalents I’m not saying any end game content doesn’t require revives to complete what I’m saying is it’s really not the most important issue in the game at the moment it’s a small thing compared to the Inputs, AI and cheaters so it shouldn’t be the main focus. Even if the content took longer to complete because it takes f2p users longer to collect the proper amount items needed this doesn’t stop you from eventually getting it done.

    Kabam will do something better I believe than the first solution they provided once these changes go into affect.
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    JefechutaJefechuta Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    edited March 2023
    Moosetiptronic said:

    @Jefechuta I have 155 6,* including herc and my 6* are lucky; I'm missing a lot of terrible champions.

    My average was around 50 revives. Possibly slightly over, mainly because the left lane is so punishing for me at least.

    As I mentioned in my write up posted separately, I could halve the revives count if I could heal to full. I'm guessing 30 odd average if I'd solely used lv2 revives and a lot of heals.

    But I'm definitely in the "decidedly average" group of players skill wise.

    Would I have done it, if it was solely farming units instead? Perhaps. I would have also gone back to farming revives in later acts, just as I did for the Grandmaster and abyss. It would maybe have taken me longer, but trust me, there are MANY paragons like me, who would simply find another way to farm for the resources.

    So what does this change achieve? Will people no longer farm revives to trivialise content?? Nope, we will still do it.

    My bet is that it will be counter productive and cost kabam money in missed spend, if my alliance is anything to go by.

    However... Neither of us, or anyone on these forums knows!

    I'm just adding my thoughts as a late-ish game paragon, who has done them; having the best counters at R3/R4 did not really help with keeping the revive count down ...

    Yeah but you just said the principal difference, it would take you longer, so the exchange between the time you invest and what you get is proportional, but right now we are able to farm more resources in less time, just as I stated before, I got 40 revives in a something between 3 to 4 hours of farming, which I just did to see how many I could get, since I dropped playing the game cause the bugs and I wont come back to do it till they fix at least half of them.

    I have enough resources in one day of farming to do a EoP run, in just some hours of farming, thats the problem, if everybody had to prepare themselves for Idk, two weeks? three? That would be a fair exchange, Everest Content would take longer to be done as it is intended and Kabam would have no problem with that at all.

    The main problem is the amount of people being able to do it in this period of time just because of revive spamming.

    Yeah there would be people revive spamming with Units and Money, but it would be waaaaay less people, and the ones doing it with Units would take more time to do so.

    Ill make an example, I cant be cooking dinner meant for 14 days, and people be eating it in 7 days, this is the easier way to explain it, and it is fair if you pay so you eat double the amount you should be eating.
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    MoosetiptronicMoosetiptronic Posts: 2,136 ★★★★
    @Jefechuta - I call embellishment on your claim of 40 revives in 4 hours. I've farmed 3.6.2 extensively ( and ROL for heals) and you can't get that many from 3.6.2 in that time frame.

    I was getting around 10-15 a day, with a net loss of around 5-7 refills per day depending on refill spawns.

    It can be argued that that is still too many.

    I *did* farm 3.6.2, again and again and again. Not once to try and prove a point, but repeatedly, for days and days on end. And I'm NOT running arena at all, while farming 3.6.2 or ROL, or running the low level MEQs. So I'm missing out on a LOT of units while doing it.

    The claims of infinite revives, or even 40 a day, are hyperbolic.

    But, it would take me similar time to build 60+ revives in stash OR units in later act farming and arena as well. A week or two.

    So 6-8 weeks for 4 to 6 runs.

    I know, because I used to do it!

    So no, the time to accrue these, is not that much faster. It's less screen tapping. That's all.

    I'd still have done EOP in the same time frame, perhaps another week or two later.

    What it would cost me, I am guessing, is slightly more farmed units, that I'll otherwise spend on offers. But that's hard to tell, as I'm losing out on units by farming revives.

    The only argument, that holds water, is that kabam thinks this is costing them money. Why not just defend that?
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,375 ★★★★★
    It's costing them time and effort. If they release something like Carina's for example, and a good number more Players are pushing through it faster than intended, that puts strains on their designs. They then need to accommodate to that, with a faster rate than intended.
    There's a great deal of talk about skill, but these things aren't meant for a high number of Players to do in a relatively short period of time. I suspect that part of the data that also went into seeing why this is a problem came from how many Players were able to complete them.
    They're high-end challenges. Which means there might be a very few number of Players able to do them upon release, and anything else in between almost prepared to chipping away at it over time to not nearly ready. When there's a much more accelerated number of people doing them because they're farming a valuable Resource from lower content, that's a problem that goes beyond just the money made from those Rev sales.
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    NoahNoah Posts: 47 ★
    Dont make any changes to the current farming system.

    Have the revive inventory cap to 50. Overstock revives will have 24 hours before it expires.

    Dont implement the new daily quest, the game doesnt need a billion side quests or new quest that pretty much does the same thing as what we we doing currently. It only leads to crowded and jammed servers. What do you think, Kabam?
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    MackeyMackey Posts: 1,594 ★★★★★
    edited March 2023
    Noah said:

    Dont make any changes to the current farming system.

    Have the revive inventory cap to 50. Overstock revives will have 24 hours before it expires.

    Dont implement the new daily quest, the game doesnt need a billion side quests or new quest that pretty much does the same thing as what we we doing currently. It only leads to crowded and jammed servers. What do you think, Kabam?

    If they make no changes to the farming then do the other stuff you said then it's not much of a compromise now is it 😂 that's us winning and them losing.

    They should just leave it as is, period. Nothing new nothing removed.

    That said, something has to give ...
    Raise inventory caps (doubling them I think would be fair).

    Change the rewards for the new quest to award 3 guaranteed revives per day (1 level 1 for exploring easy, 1 level 1 for completing hard and 1 level 2 for exploring hard) and retain the % for another, however make the % based revive a 60% revive to actually make it worth while.

    Change potions throughout the game to % based too.

    I'd be happy with that compromise
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    LordSmasherLordSmasher Posts: 1,442 ★★★★★
    The problem is there is nothing to do with energy that is fun and worthwhile.
    Once I've explored TB for the month I don't really require any more energy. So I have 3 weeks of accumulating it, including energy refills from calendars and alliance events. Farming is worthwhile in that context.

    If they added more worthy solo content I wouldn't farm.

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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,375 ★★★★★
    They're not likely going to do nothing at this point. Especially after this. Everyone and their dog will be using it to farm Revs.
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    Scopeotoe987Scopeotoe987 Posts: 1,550 ★★★★★
    edited March 2023
    All quiet on the western front.
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    JefechutaJefechuta Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    Moosetiptronic said:

    @Jefechuta - I call embellishment on your claim of 40 revives in 4 hours. I've farmed 3.6.2 extensively ( and ROL for heals) and you can't get that many from 3.6.2 in that time frame.

    I was getting around 10-15 a day, with a net loss of around 5-7 refills per day depending on refill spawns.

    It can be argued that that is still too many.

    I *did* farm 3.6.2, again and again and again. Not once to try and prove a point, but repeatedly, for days and days on end. And I'm NOT running arena at all, while farming 3.6.2 or ROL, or running the low level MEQs. So I'm missing out on a LOT of units while doing it.

    The claims of infinite revives, or even 40 a day, are hyperbolic.

    But, it would take me similar time to build 60+ revives in stash OR units in later act farming and arena as well. A week or two.

    So 6-8 weeks for 4 to 6 runs.

    I know, because I used to do it!

    So no, the time to accrue these, is not that much faster. It's less screen tapping. That's all.

    I'd still have done EOP in the same time frame, perhaps another week or two later.

    What it would cost me, I am guessing, is slightly more farmed units, that I'll otherwise spend on offers. But that's hard to tell, as I'm losing out on units by farming revives.

    The only argument, that holds water, is that kabam thinks this is costing them money. Why not just defend that?

    I dont do that run, it takes way much energy, I do Act 2.5, I usually get at least 1 revive every 3 runs which equals 1 refill, but usually I get between 1 and 2, I spent my energy + 10 refills I got since the rest of them just got lost since Im not playing rn, and another 3 runs with the energy I got, so 12 refills = 36 runs, + something around 5 refills I got so 15 runs more, 51 runs and got around 40 revives, because I think I got 38 from the runs, 1 lvl 2 Revive from a 2* box in the top path, and another one from the 22h mission, so 38 in 51 runs, I admit I got lucky since I got some runs with both refills and revives or with more than 1 revive so.

    And I think I did 3-4 runs more with 5 energy ones that I kept getting from the runs but Im not going to count those.

    And the fact that you do between 4-6 runs a day doesnt mean you only can do that, you can do more, so it makes if faster, the time playing you spend on arenas is WAY MORE than doing the runs for less resources.


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    Graves_3Graves_3 Posts: 1,371 ★★★★★
    Jefechuta said:

    firedood said:

    Jefechuta said:

    firedood said:

    Jefechuta said:

    DrZola said:

    Pikolu said:

    Skunkcabbage said:

    DrZola said:

    Skunkcabbage said:

    Pikolu said:

    Skunkcabbage said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Skunkcabbage said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Fredhorst23 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Stature said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Stature said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Stature said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    People keep saying that this is some great ploy to get people to spend on Revives, but the only evidence they have is that you can buy them with Units.

    Unless there is a drastic change in content design, any new endgame content will need revives. All existing end game content also needs revives. Availability of revives has been reduced. What do you think happens?

    Realistically players only have two choices - not to attempt endgame content or buy the revives needed to complete it. Some people will not attempt it, some others will buy revives with units. Of the ones who will buy revives with units, some will have units (or grind them in arenas) while some will buy them with money.

    As a knock on effect, since fewer people will finish endgame content - including some increased spending on it - the seasonal unit deal (Jul 4th, CW, Banquet etc.) will be a bit more valuable (since endgame rewards are now available to fewer people). Again some people will grind units for this, some will buy.

    It is naive to think that this decision was made with a view that it will have a negative revenue impact for the game. The hope clearly is that endgame players used to endgame rewards will still attempt endgame content even if it requires spending (units or money). There is no way this move would have been approved if the internal analysis implied that there would be actual revenue loss from this.

    Either that or the data shows that it is a small number of players who are revive farming to that extent (5-15K players accounting for bulk of the 100-300K revives). Consequently, despite the forum noise, actual impact on playing experience of the majority of players is relatively small.
    People do not have to spend to get Revives. They never have. Units are an accumulated Resource in the game. In fact, I've heard that accusation with just about every ill-received change I can think of. Apparently anything Players don't want is a coup to milk the Players.
    Would I say that a valuable Resource is being harvested at a much higher rate that's intended? Absolutely. That undervalues it for sure. That's a bigger problem than the possibility that people might spend to get through content. That's not the sole objective.
    If they removed all Revs from the game and made them only acquirable through the Unit Store, that theory might be onto something. The reality is money only saves time in this game. People only spend when they don't want to wait.
    I don't recall saying people have to spend on revives or anything else. A free source of revives is being removed - it will either lead to lower use of revives or increase the usage of other avenues of acquiring revives. One of those avenues is spending money. So it is possible that some people will spend money on revives due to this change. I am not even claiming this is the intent - all I am saying is that if the effect were reverse and the change would be considered to impact revenues negatively, it would never be approved.

    The game wouldn't exist if it were not for people spending money on it. I cannot understand why it is a surprise to you that in a game whose entire reason for existence is the revenues it generates from selling items to players, the management team would consider that angle in any change it implements.

    What do you think it means when you say "valuable Resource is being harvested at a much higher rate that's intended?" The idea is that the resource is available at a rate that a small % of the player base can use it to meet all objectives, remaining players can use it to meet some objectives but not all. The expectation is some of the players in the second set will spend money to bridge the gap in resources. Revenues may not be the major driver for changes in the game, but it is almost always a consideration in any major step taken.
    In Layman's Terms? No one is meant to farm that many Revs from Act 3. I thought that much was clear by now.
    For free. No one is meant to farm that many revives from Act 3 (or anywhere else in the game), for free.

    Since you think there were no revenue considerations - do you think this move will lead to lesser spending? What do you think will happen if there is a sustained decline in revenues directly as a consequence of this move? I think either content will become easier or revives will be available more abundantly.
    So....because people can't farm too many Revs from Act 3 "for free", there's going to be a decline in revenue? That doesn't make logical sense to me. If people are not willing to Grind Units or spend to get them, they're not likely going to be a loss in revenue because of this change. Regardless, people can assert that it's only about money all they like, but money isn't what it's about. So they're free to spend or not.
    If it's some type of protest, then that's called entitlement. People have become so accustomed to getting more than they're supposed to that they see themselves as entitled to them. Forgive me if that sounds judgmental or somehow disrespectful, but that's what it is to me.
    This isn't a natural part of game play or progression that was put there to help Players with end-game content. That's not why they were put there.
    There may very well be some changes moving forward, sure. I suspect they won't look like an unlimited supply like the open door did. The reactions also highlight how much worse it would have become had they decided to leave things as they were. When you leak a high-value Resource in the game like that, it affects many things. Money isn't the only thing.
    Calm down there big dawg, if you're slinging words around like entitlement then be prepared to discuss why that is. Kabam folks are not stupid. They were aware when they designed the level that the rebs would spawn and would be farmable. They knew when they made autoplay and left it open on low end chapters that farming would happen. They have known for a long time that people are farming crazy revs, and even designed lots of content that took that into account. Now, they've decided they don't want that anymore, as is their right. But to place any blame on the player base for the utilization of that resource font is unfair (mind im not talking about the abusers).
    Kabams release should have said "we know we did it but we want to put out some stuff that you can't farm through, let's go ahead and fix it." Rather than act surprised and say all the extra fluff they threw out there (not to mention provided a better solution).
    See, I'm going to have to disagree there. I don't believe they designed the content to have the Revs there so that people could farm them. It's just like the Act 1 Rev, or any other thing that's taken advantage of. When it becomes a problem, it has to be changed.
    Also, yes. I used the word entitlement. If something is included for Players in Act 3 and it's being milked, that's one thing. Players will do what Players do. They look for advantages. If those Players are on a soap box about it being taken away, that's entitlement. No one is meant to farm that many Revs in the game. That goes against the actual design of the game.
    What is the design of the game you're referring to? Do you have the document you can link to with the clause that being able to farm resources breaches?

    Act 1 guaranteed revive farm years ago for 7 energy or whatever and is magnitudes away from the 3.2.6 farm - let's be realistic here guy. No way near the same cost per revive in energy and time! Planets apart and not comparable.

    You mentioned that when it becomes a problem it has to be changed - why has the 3.2.6 revive farm only now become a problem 18 months later? Didn't it become a problem in November 2021?
    It's another example of something that turned into an outlet for people it wasn't intended for and had to be changed.
    So for they designed unlimited revive farming (but exclusively for newer players only)
    It was designed to give new players an edge as they start to get used to the game. The quests were never designed to be done after they were explored.
    Why would a player not want to go back to a resource that they have an ongoing need for though? After they've explored Act 3 of course they will go back to get revives from 3.2.6 to help progress through Act 4.

    Also you don't know for a fact who designed the content and the rationale that was used, you're just assuming at this point.
    I think assuming naïveté on the part of the game team when it comes to how players play and experience mobile games is wrong. Some of them may even play this game and others when they aren’t coding MCoC.

    Most direct solution would be to lock paths once they are run or adjust the spawn rate of revives. Neither appears to have been done.

    I think we can assume the team keeps records and data on gameplay that goes well beyond what the community can access (in fact, they have told us that on more than one occasion). Armed with detailed data on quest usage, why not do something about Paragons and TBs revisiting 3.2.6 repeatedly, say, months and months ago?

    I believe the answer is Casablanca.

    Dr. Zola
    What you are saying is flawless in logic and I agree with all of it.

    My response was to whoever I replied to because I felt the need to challenge what they wrote and how they phrased it.
    I literally told you the reasoning behind their design. It was never an intended interaction that people would go back into quests because of these resource spawns. Why kabam didn't think that people would go back to farm resources is beyond me.

    In my opinion, they should just have the guaranteed one-time path rewards for these items, like what we see in act 7 and 8, then the new players still get the items and it prevents farming of them as well.
    Didn’t see your post from above—you were stating their rationale, which doesn’t seem to be grounded in basic gaming experience.

    There have been quests in the past where players could reclaim the same rewards for doing them over and over that were bugged. Not surprisingly, people ran them over and over.

    With that mentioned, if the answer is Casablanca, then the follow-up question is why did Renault decide to close Rick’s Cafe?

    Dr. Zola
    The fact people take advantage of an exploit doesnt mean that its supposed to be like that, thats why it is an exploit and not a game mechanic, thats why Kabam didnt put a Pop Up that says "Hey, if you dont seem able to go through the content you can go back and farm more resources to do so!"

    And the fact that Kabam didnt do anything for 2 years is probably because of 2 things:

    1. They didnt expect people to rerun that quest 50 times in a row in a 1-2 days.
    2. They didnt release permanent Everest Content so players didnt farm that hard because the lack of time they had, now that Kabam released permanent one they noticed that more people than intended is doing the Everest Content sooner than expected because of the revive farming, and people that shouldnt be even being able to do it since they are not the top players whom this Content is directed for.
    Jefechuta, i completely agree with your points in your last post.

    1. Kabam didn’t expect people to farm revives, when they put out content requiring 3 star champs to fight opponents with 6-digit health pools. They were simply hoping for a revenue bump while making things challenging. Im pretty sure no one could have seen it come to this debacle lol 👍🏽

    2. Also many players without roster/skills (me included) should not be doing content thats too difficult although its released without restriction to any player. If anything, everest content should have been gated to qualifying levels of progression then? I personally dont think kabam or any company would pass up on the possibility of whales or spenders buying odins to build their sub accounts, if not their main ones.
    1. Every argument about the challenges of 3* and 4* is way too dumb, if you are doing that challenges is because its the ONLY thing you have left to do, so ALL YOUR RESOURCES are destined to that challenge, so your 4h Crystals, the revives you already have by doing the 22h Missions/Quests, the Units you get by doing EQ, Missions, Quests, Arenas, etc, so you shouldnt need to go farming revives on Act 2 and 3.

    2. Thats right, probably its not capped for the people that its not good/big enough, so they can spend on Odins to do it, but there is a difference here, they are spending on the game to do content that is not meant for them so they can progress way faster than the people that doesnt spend, its called Pay 2 Fast, but it is not meant to be done because you just farmed revives on an exploit that Kabam didnt change back then because it could impact negatively to the new players whom this resources are meant for, or maybe another reason that we dont know, but it was never meant for higher progression players to be rerunning that content.

    And this is not arguable, Im just farming revives to see how many I could get WITHOUT using any units, just the refills I have and the ones I keep getting by rerunning, I've already got 40 revives in 3 to 4 hours, being very unlucky with the drop rates since I have done 5 runs in a row where I got nothing, and that happened maybe 3 times, so If youa re lucky you could get more than that.

    40 revives in 4 hours without spending anything its something that shouldnt be possible by any means, sorry for all the people that want to do content that they are not supposed to do, without spending at least, but thats the way it works and thats they way it should work, if you want something sooner than you are supposed to, you have to spend like in every other game.
    I was thinking if i should even reply, these things can go on forever. So forgive me if i stay silent after this.

    4h events, 4hr crystals etc, probably wont be enough for the average summoner. Inventory cap, low drop rates and crazy high usage.

    As for the Pay2Fast thing, i wont defend players who choose to spend beyond their means. Most of us have been there. But this greatly helps Kabam doesnt it? Players choose it, Kabam gets to continue developing the game.

    Why nerf it and offer weak revives and pots now?
    My guess would be if we get to see how many revives been farmed after the inception of Carina’s, not doing it would be theoretical lost income. But my only argument isn’t if it is or isn’t. But that players are paying and stressed. Not enjoying the game and persisting due to addiction or foolish sentiment. Reminds of a horrible relationship dont you think?
    Why everybody avoids the fact that if you are targetting those challenges you are not or you are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE an average player.
    Can you explain what you mean by not supposed to be an average player for targeting this content? What are the criteria for being considered above average or in the target range for these types of content?
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    JefechutaJefechuta Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    Ironman3000 said:

    Jefechuta said:

    Moosetiptronic said:

    @Jefechuta I have 155 6,* including herc and my 6* are lucky; I'm missing a lot of terrible champions.

    My average was around 50 revives. Possibly slightly over, mainly because the left lane is so punishing for me at least.

    As I mentioned in my write up posted separately, I could halve the revives count if I could heal to full. I'm guessing 30 odd average if I'd solely used lv2 revives and a lot of heals.

    But I'm definitely in the "decidedly average" group of players skill wise.

    Would I have done it, if it was solely farming units instead? Perhaps. I would have also gone back to farming revives in later acts, just as I did for the Grandmaster and abyss. It would maybe have taken me longer, but trust me, there are MANY paragons like me, who would simply find another way to farm for the resources.

    So what does this change achieve? Will people no longer farm revives to trivialise content?? Nope, we will still do it.

    My bet is that it will be counter productive and cost kabam money in missed spend, if my alliance is anything to go by.

    However... Neither of us, or anyone on these forums knows!

    I'm just adding my thoughts as a late-ish game paragon, who has done them; having the best counters at R3/R4 did not really help with keeping the revive count down ...

    Yeah but you just said the principal difference, it would take you longer, so the exchange between the time you invest and what you get is proportional, but right now we are able to farm more resources in less time, just as I stated before, I got 40 revives in a something between 3 to 4 hours of farming, which I just did to see how many I could get, since I dropped playing the game cause the bugs and I wont come back to do it till they fix at least half of them.

    I have enough resources in one day of farming to do a EoP run, in just some hours of farming, thats the problem, if everybody had to prepare themselves for Idk, two weeks? three? That would be a fair exchange, Everest Content would take longer to be done as it is intended and Kabam would have no problem with that at all.

    The main problem is the amount of people being able to do it in this period of time just because of revive spamming.

    Yeah there would be people revive spamming with Units and Money, but it would be waaaaay less people, and the ones doing it with Units would take more time to do so.

    Ill make an example, I cant be cooking dinner meant for 14 days, and people be eating it in 7 days, this is the easier way to explain it, and it is fair if you pay so you eat double the amount you should be eating.
    This just isn't true. 40 revives in 3-4 hours and enough to do an AOL run in 1 day? Not even close to real numbers.
    I have all the champs needed for every path on AoL, and I saw a lot of runs under 50 and 40 revives, and Im not a newbie skill wise.

    And It is possible, maybe not 40 as I stated just before, something around 38 in a total of 51-55 runs, as I said, being quite lucky in some runs since I got multiple revives or refills in one run, it was around 4h, idk if more than 4h but less than 5h, I think Im not forgetting about any runs or any additional revive I got from anywere else.

    I did it with Platpool to be faster so it took me less time than it could.

    But anyway, the point is that If I wasnt that lucky I could get at least something between 25-30 anyways.
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    JefechutaJefechuta Posts: 1,212 ★★★★
    Graves_3 said:

    Jefechuta said:

    firedood said:

    Jefechuta said:

    firedood said:

    Jefechuta said:

    DrZola said:

    Pikolu said:

    Skunkcabbage said:

    DrZola said:

    Skunkcabbage said:

    Pikolu said:

    Skunkcabbage said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Skunkcabbage said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Fredhorst23 said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Stature said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Stature said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    Stature said:

    GroundedWisdom said:

    People keep saying that this is some great ploy to get people to spend on Revives, but the only evidence they have is that you can buy them with Units.

    Unless there is a drastic change in content design, any new endgame content will need revives. All existing end game content also needs revives. Availability of revives has been reduced. What do you think happens?

    Realistically players only have two choices - not to attempt endgame content or buy the revives needed to complete it. Some people will not attempt it, some others will buy revives with units. Of the ones who will buy revives with units, some will have units (or grind them in arenas) while some will buy them with money.

    As a knock on effect, since fewer people will finish endgame content - including some increased spending on it - the seasonal unit deal (Jul 4th, CW, Banquet etc.) will be a bit more valuable (since endgame rewards are now available to fewer people). Again some people will grind units for this, some will buy.

    It is naive to think that this decision was made with a view that it will have a negative revenue impact for the game. The hope clearly is that endgame players used to endgame rewards will still attempt endgame content even if it requires spending (units or money). There is no way this move would have been approved if the internal analysis implied that there would be actual revenue loss from this.

    Either that or the data shows that it is a small number of players who are revive farming to that extent (5-15K players accounting for bulk of the 100-300K revives). Consequently, despite the forum noise, actual impact on playing experience of the majority of players is relatively small.
    People do not have to spend to get Revives. They never have. Units are an accumulated Resource in the game. In fact, I've heard that accusation with just about every ill-received change I can think of. Apparently anything Players don't want is a coup to milk the Players.
    Would I say that a valuable Resource is being harvested at a much higher rate that's intended? Absolutely. That undervalues it for sure. That's a bigger problem than the possibility that people might spend to get through content. That's not the sole objective.
    If they removed all Revs from the game and made them only acquirable through the Unit Store, that theory might be onto something. The reality is money only saves time in this game. People only spend when they don't want to wait.
    I don't recall saying people have to spend on revives or anything else. A free source of revives is being removed - it will either lead to lower use of revives or increase the usage of other avenues of acquiring revives. One of those avenues is spending money. So it is possible that some people will spend money on revives due to this change. I am not even claiming this is the intent - all I am saying is that if the effect were reverse and the change would be considered to impact revenues negatively, it would never be approved.

    The game wouldn't exist if it were not for people spending money on it. I cannot understand why it is a surprise to you that in a game whose entire reason for existence is the revenues it generates from selling items to players, the management team would consider that angle in any change it implements.

    What do you think it means when you say "valuable Resource is being harvested at a much higher rate that's intended?" The idea is that the resource is available at a rate that a small % of the player base can use it to meet all objectives, remaining players can use it to meet some objectives but not all. The expectation is some of the players in the second set will spend money to bridge the gap in resources. Revenues may not be the major driver for changes in the game, but it is almost always a consideration in any major step taken.
    In Layman's Terms? No one is meant to farm that many Revs from Act 3. I thought that much was clear by now.
    For free. No one is meant to farm that many revives from Act 3 (or anywhere else in the game), for free.

    Since you think there were no revenue considerations - do you think this move will lead to lesser spending? What do you think will happen if there is a sustained decline in revenues directly as a consequence of this move? I think either content will become easier or revives will be available more abundantly.
    So....because people can't farm too many Revs from Act 3 "for free", there's going to be a decline in revenue? That doesn't make logical sense to me. If people are not willing to Grind Units or spend to get them, they're not likely going to be a loss in revenue because of this change. Regardless, people can assert that it's only about money all they like, but money isn't what it's about. So they're free to spend or not.
    If it's some type of protest, then that's called entitlement. People have become so accustomed to getting more than they're supposed to that they see themselves as entitled to them. Forgive me if that sounds judgmental or somehow disrespectful, but that's what it is to me.
    This isn't a natural part of game play or progression that was put there to help Players with end-game content. That's not why they were put there.
    There may very well be some changes moving forward, sure. I suspect they won't look like an unlimited supply like the open door did. The reactions also highlight how much worse it would have become had they decided to leave things as they were. When you leak a high-value Resource in the game like that, it affects many things. Money isn't the only thing.
    Calm down there big dawg, if you're slinging words around like entitlement then be prepared to discuss why that is. Kabam folks are not stupid. They were aware when they designed the level that the rebs would spawn and would be farmable. They knew when they made autoplay and left it open on low end chapters that farming would happen. They have known for a long time that people are farming crazy revs, and even designed lots of content that took that into account. Now, they've decided they don't want that anymore, as is their right. But to place any blame on the player base for the utilization of that resource font is unfair (mind im not talking about the abusers).
    Kabams release should have said "we know we did it but we want to put out some stuff that you can't farm through, let's go ahead and fix it." Rather than act surprised and say all the extra fluff they threw out there (not to mention provided a better solution).
    See, I'm going to have to disagree there. I don't believe they designed the content to have the Revs there so that people could farm them. It's just like the Act 1 Rev, or any other thing that's taken advantage of. When it becomes a problem, it has to be changed.
    Also, yes. I used the word entitlement. If something is included for Players in Act 3 and it's being milked, that's one thing. Players will do what Players do. They look for advantages. If those Players are on a soap box about it being taken away, that's entitlement. No one is meant to farm that many Revs in the game. That goes against the actual design of the game.
    What is the design of the game you're referring to? Do you have the document you can link to with the clause that being able to farm resources breaches?

    Act 1 guaranteed revive farm years ago for 7 energy or whatever and is magnitudes away from the 3.2.6 farm - let's be realistic here guy. No way near the same cost per revive in energy and time! Planets apart and not comparable.

    You mentioned that when it becomes a problem it has to be changed - why has the 3.2.6 revive farm only now become a problem 18 months later? Didn't it become a problem in November 2021?
    It's another example of something that turned into an outlet for people it wasn't intended for and had to be changed.
    So for they designed unlimited revive farming (but exclusively for newer players only)
    It was designed to give new players an edge as they start to get used to the game. The quests were never designed to be done after they were explored.
    Why would a player not want to go back to a resource that they have an ongoing need for though? After they've explored Act 3 of course they will go back to get revives from 3.2.6 to help progress through Act 4.

    Also you don't know for a fact who designed the content and the rationale that was used, you're just assuming at this point.
    I think assuming naïveté on the part of the game team when it comes to how players play and experience mobile games is wrong. Some of them may even play this game and others when they aren’t coding MCoC.

    Most direct solution would be to lock paths once they are run or adjust the spawn rate of revives. Neither appears to have been done.

    I think we can assume the team keeps records and data on gameplay that goes well beyond what the community can access (in fact, they have told us that on more than one occasion). Armed with detailed data on quest usage, why not do something about Paragons and TBs revisiting 3.2.6 repeatedly, say, months and months ago?

    I believe the answer is Casablanca.

    Dr. Zola
    What you are saying is flawless in logic and I agree with all of it.

    My response was to whoever I replied to because I felt the need to challenge what they wrote and how they phrased it.
    I literally told you the reasoning behind their design. It was never an intended interaction that people would go back into quests because of these resource spawns. Why kabam didn't think that people would go back to farm resources is beyond me.

    In my opinion, they should just have the guaranteed one-time path rewards for these items, like what we see in act 7 and 8, then the new players still get the items and it prevents farming of them as well.
    Didn’t see your post from above—you were stating their rationale, which doesn’t seem to be grounded in basic gaming experience.

    There have been quests in the past where players could reclaim the same rewards for doing them over and over that were bugged. Not surprisingly, people ran them over and over.

    With that mentioned, if the answer is Casablanca, then the follow-up question is why did Renault decide to close Rick’s Cafe?

    Dr. Zola
    The fact people take advantage of an exploit doesnt mean that its supposed to be like that, thats why it is an exploit and not a game mechanic, thats why Kabam didnt put a Pop Up that says "Hey, if you dont seem able to go through the content you can go back and farm more resources to do so!"

    And the fact that Kabam didnt do anything for 2 years is probably because of 2 things:

    1. They didnt expect people to rerun that quest 50 times in a row in a 1-2 days.
    2. They didnt release permanent Everest Content so players didnt farm that hard because the lack of time they had, now that Kabam released permanent one they noticed that more people than intended is doing the Everest Content sooner than expected because of the revive farming, and people that shouldnt be even being able to do it since they are not the top players whom this Content is directed for.
    Jefechuta, i completely agree with your points in your last post.

    1. Kabam didn’t expect people to farm revives, when they put out content requiring 3 star champs to fight opponents with 6-digit health pools. They were simply hoping for a revenue bump while making things challenging. Im pretty sure no one could have seen it come to this debacle lol 👍🏽

    2. Also many players without roster/skills (me included) should not be doing content thats too difficult although its released without restriction to any player. If anything, everest content should have been gated to qualifying levels of progression then? I personally dont think kabam or any company would pass up on the possibility of whales or spenders buying odins to build their sub accounts, if not their main ones.
    1. Every argument about the challenges of 3* and 4* is way too dumb, if you are doing that challenges is because its the ONLY thing you have left to do, so ALL YOUR RESOURCES are destined to that challenge, so your 4h Crystals, the revives you already have by doing the 22h Missions/Quests, the Units you get by doing EQ, Missions, Quests, Arenas, etc, so you shouldnt need to go farming revives on Act 2 and 3.

    2. Thats right, probably its not capped for the people that its not good/big enough, so they can spend on Odins to do it, but there is a difference here, they are spending on the game to do content that is not meant for them so they can progress way faster than the people that doesnt spend, its called Pay 2 Fast, but it is not meant to be done because you just farmed revives on an exploit that Kabam didnt change back then because it could impact negatively to the new players whom this resources are meant for, or maybe another reason that we dont know, but it was never meant for higher progression players to be rerunning that content.

    And this is not arguable, Im just farming revives to see how many I could get WITHOUT using any units, just the refills I have and the ones I keep getting by rerunning, I've already got 40 revives in 3 to 4 hours, being very unlucky with the drop rates since I have done 5 runs in a row where I got nothing, and that happened maybe 3 times, so If youa re lucky you could get more than that.

    40 revives in 4 hours without spending anything its something that shouldnt be possible by any means, sorry for all the people that want to do content that they are not supposed to do, without spending at least, but thats the way it works and thats they way it should work, if you want something sooner than you are supposed to, you have to spend like in every other game.
    I was thinking if i should even reply, these things can go on forever. So forgive me if i stay silent after this.

    4h events, 4hr crystals etc, probably wont be enough for the average summoner. Inventory cap, low drop rates and crazy high usage.

    As for the Pay2Fast thing, i wont defend players who choose to spend beyond their means. Most of us have been there. But this greatly helps Kabam doesnt it? Players choose it, Kabam gets to continue developing the game.

    Why nerf it and offer weak revives and pots now?
    My guess would be if we get to see how many revives been farmed after the inception of Carina’s, not doing it would be theoretical lost income. But my only argument isn’t if it is or isn’t. But that players are paying and stressed. Not enjoying the game and persisting due to addiction or foolish sentiment. Reminds of a horrible relationship dont you think?
    Why everybody avoids the fact that if you are targetting those challenges you are not or you are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE an average player.
    Can you explain what you mean by not supposed to be an average player for targeting this content? What are the criteria for being considered above average or in the target range for these types of content?
    Everest Content is supposed to be challenging.

    Who needs a challenge? People that already did everything else so every new content is too easy for them and boring.

    Thats why they created Carina Challenges.

    Are those for people that need the last R4 to get Paragon or for every Paragon Player to be done like the rest of the game? No, those are for the people that has nothing else to do beside monthly Events, this is a challenge for them, so they can prove they are Gods between players etc etc etc.

    Thats why they have titles and profile pics as rewards, its a way to show everybody how good you are, if you are just an average Paragon, hasnt even explored act 6, act 8 explored and maybe act 7, Back Issues maybe unexplored, you dont hard AQ maps, you dont do arenas to get featured 6*, you just do monthly events just to have fun, you are not the Everest Content target yet.
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    TheTalentsTheTalents Posts: 2,254 ★★★★★
    Manup456 said:

    @TheTalents I’m not saying any end game content doesn’t require revives to complete what I’m saying is it’s really not the most important issue in the game at the moment it’s a small thing compared to the Inputs, AI and cheaters so it shouldn’t be the main focus. Even if the content took longer to complete because it takes f2p users longer to collect the proper amount items needed this doesn’t stop you from eventually getting it done.

    Kabam will do something better I believe than the first solution they provided once these changes go into affect.

    I absolutely don't believe in Kabam the way you do. I think that the system is fine as is. The only middle ground is to make easier content like they did with act 8 and people would vehemently dislike that as well. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Kabam can still work on the more important issues you're speaking about instead of wasting time on this one.
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    TyphoonTyphoon Posts: 1,768 ★★★★★
    edited March 2023
    GoneIn60sec said:

    40 revives in 3 hrs is possible. But you would need to spend about 20-30 energy refills to do that. They don't come free. You can farm those as well but it takes much longer than 5 minutes and it is tedious.

    Personally I only "farm" revives when I have leftover energy and nothing to do with it and just autofight. I usually have about 20 in my stash this way. This month's EQ was such a pain I had none. I would probably skip it altogether without the revives in my stash.

    Yep. My order of events each month for regular energy usually looks like:

    1) Monthly Side Quests/Objectives
    2) Battlegrounds Progression through Victory Track
    3) Thronebreaker+ Monthly Quest Exploration
    4) Revive Farming

    It’s always the last thing I do and I usually have about 5 days on average to do it. And no, I’m not spamming energy refills. I use my available energy, the help button, and I always select paths with energy refills over revive paths if available to increase my net energy. Definitely doesn’t amount to 40/day for me. Probably more like 6.

    I work Monday-Friday, have two toddlers to look after, and I hardly have time to play on the weekends. Most of my playing time comes on breaks at work or in the evenings during the workday.

    Y’all kneecapping me with this move.
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