Post-Update Discussion re: Apothecary/Consumable Economy

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  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,639 Guardian
    Mackey said:

    Mackey said:

    So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨

    They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

    The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
    The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time
    In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

    For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

    For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

    Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.
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  • altavistaaltavista Member Posts: 1,442 ★★★★
    Obviously, leaving things as is would be the most player friendly.
    Having said that, it is also obvious that it would be untenable from Kabam's perspective (otherwise, why would they make such an unpopular change).
    Despite the player uprorar, it is also obvious that Kabam wouldn't backtrack to leave things as they were (again, because that would be untenable from Kabam's perspective).

    The changes based on player feedback are not the best, but not the worse. Would probably rate it as a 6/10 change.
  • edited March 2023
    This content has been removed.
  • Yodabolt21Yodabolt21 Member Posts: 2,592 ★★★★★
    I still think the most obvious fix to this is to increase the chances of revives dropping in the daily crystals
  • MackeyMackey Member Posts: 1,597 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    Mackey said:

    Mackey said:

    So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨

    They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

    The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
    The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time
    In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

    For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

    For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

    Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.
    Not once did I say it wasn't reasonably achievable. I was getting at that this Apothecary will take you what? About 5-7 mins to explore ... for the average endgame player?... I'll concede we don't and can't know the actual answer to this yet but at 11.5k team rating recommendation i think its a fair guess. The solo events take longer than that.
  • NoahNoah Member Posts: 47
    No, dont sugarcoat it. Change the inventory cap is only part of it. change daily quest to include 2x 20% and 1x 40% revives per day and also offer 20% revive at 25 units each.
  • MackeyMackey Member Posts: 1,597 ★★★★★
    Actually I'd be happy to accept this compromise if the potions become % based. 10%/20% etc etc. That would make healing a champ much more viable and in turm would reduce the need for as many revives
  • H3t3rH3t3r Member, Guardian Posts: 2,882 Guardian
    Leanbison said:

    Interesting to say there was no revive farming before Nov 2021. That is flat out false.

    It definitely wasn't as Big. Going even further back in to 2017 days most just did arena for units for revives.
  • MackeyMackey Member Posts: 1,597 ★★★★★
    Mackey said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Mackey said:

    Mackey said:

    So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨

    They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

    The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
    The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time
    In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

    For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

    For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

    Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.
    Not once did I say it wasn't reasonably achievable. I was getting at that this Apothecary will take you what? About 5-7 mins to explore ... for the average endgame player?... I'll concede we don't and can't know the actual answer to this yet but at 11.5k team rating recommendation i think its a fair guess. The solo events take longer than that.
    Also, let's not forget, the issues kabam had was the farming of acts 1-3 so their solution was to nerf them (in simple terms lol) and then give us that apothecary as a replacement farming method. Where has this solo event thing even come from? What's it got to do with the farming/apothecary issue. In my honest opinion I feel like they're trying to pull the wool over our eyes
  • MackeyMackey Member Posts: 1,597 ★★★★★
    Leanbison said:

    Interesting to say there was no revive farming before Nov 2021. That is flat out false.

    Especially when you consider they said in their first post they had an intended fix for Nov 21 but pulled it, implying they already knew about it beforehand 🤔
  • H3t3rH3t3r Member, Guardian Posts: 2,882 Guardian
    Mackey said:

    Mackey said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Mackey said:

    Mackey said:

    So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨

    They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

    The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
    The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time
    In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

    For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

    For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

    Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.
    Not once did I say it wasn't reasonably achievable. I was getting at that this Apothecary will take you what? About 5-7 mins to explore ... for the average endgame player?... I'll concede we don't and can't know the actual answer to this yet but at 11.5k team rating recommendation i think its a fair guess. The solo events take longer than that.
    Also, let's not forget, the issues kabam had was the farming of acts 1-3 so their solution was to nerf them (in simple terms lol) and then give us that apothecary as a replacement farming method. Where has this solo event thing even come from? What's it got to do with the farming/apothecary issue. In my honest opinion I feel like they're trying to pull the wool over our eyes
    The solo events are another way to get revives. Each day you can earn a revives plus 25 units. This has been the OG method of getting revives.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Member, Guardian Posts: 19,639 Guardian
    Mackey said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Mackey said:

    Mackey said:

    So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨

    They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

    The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
    The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time
    In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

    For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

    For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

    Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.
    Not once did I say it wasn't reasonably achievable. I was getting at that this Apothecary will take you what? About 5-7 mins to explore ... for the average endgame player?... I'll concede we don't and can't know the actual answer to this yet but at 11.5k team rating recommendation i think its a fair guess. The solo events take longer than that.
    And I just told you about how much longer.
  • KerneasKerneas Member Posts: 3,821 ★★★★★
    Okay so here are my thoughts:

    1) Many (but not all!) things you've mentioned actually make sense and even tho I am not happy with revive farming being taken away, I can understand now why it makes sense in your POV. Just saying, imagine all the trouble you could've saved us all (yourself included) if you were so open about things more often

    2) Your description of content difficulty doesn't include all ways that can make content hard. Abyss is made in a way that even with skill, ideal champs and huge prep, most players would have to spend a lot of units thanks to the hit cap. Act 6 on the other hand just requires specific counters and a wide roster. This perfectly fits the provided description, where you wanted players to prepare propperly and make educated rankup decisions. And then there is stuff like passive AI and the element of randomness, which is unpredictable and causes a huge portion of resources spending. Who has never met a stubborn Hyperion? Prime example.

    3) I still see no reason for the time restriction. Alright, so now we have a controlled access to revives, so there is soft cap on how much a player can hold at any time. Wouldn't it then be easier to just add a hard cap on the amount of revives one can possess at a time? For some reason, we have to not only get less revives, but we will NEED LONGER TO GATHER THEM. My question is why? I see no reason why should I spend more time reaching a set limit
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