Post-Update Discussion re: Apothecary/Consumable Economy

Hey Summoners,
As Miike mentioned, because the last thread got cluttered, we wanted to provide you a new space to discuss the most recent changes announced in this followup post!

Comments

DNA3000

This change will still kill the game. It will have the exact opposite affect of what they intend in most respects. Just wow...... $:\$

I'll take this bet.

DNA3000

Since you all clearly didn't listen to the player base let me make this clear which direction this heading. You have now alienated people that aren't at the top of skill from playing end game content. So you will not only make less money from EOP and other mount Everest challenges like Carina but you'll also have way less participation.

Eventually you'll be forced to increase revive farming or bring it back but for now it is a calculated risk. Good luck with that as you'll be exposed in the coming months.

I don't think we have to worry a ton about alienating players who were willing to do EoP with 150 revives but are going to balk at doing it with 70. And the players that can't do it with 70 but can do it with 73 aren't going to balk at buying three, so we're talking about the players closer to the far end of the revive spectrum than the near end.

And a good chunk of the players that were setting up to do it with 100+ revives will eventually grow sufficiently to tackle it with less than that. So the players we are alienating are the players who a) need vastly more than 70 revives to do a piece of content, b) won't ever grow to need less revives, and c) must complete that content immediately or in the near future or they will refuse to continue playing the game.

If that's more than 0.5% of the playerbase I'll eat my hat.

GinjabredMonsta

Since you all clearly didn't listen to the player base let me make this clear which direction this heading. You have now alienated people that aren't at the top of skill from playing end game content. So you will not only make less money from EOP and other mount Everest challenges like Carina but you'll also have way less participation.

Eventually you'll be forced to increase revive farming or bring it back but for now it is a calculated risk. Good luck with that as you'll be exposed in the coming months.

Since you clearly didn’t read the post, let me make this clear. This post shows that they listened. They also explained their reasons for this change and what they heard from us and how they are trying to at least compromise. They weren’t going to let it stay, that sucks, but they are making some changes. While the 6 month delay is honestly saddening, it’s set I’ll beneficial. People who aren’t at the top of “skill” were already alienated. There should be a skill and champ requirement at times. You shouldn’t be able to brute force that type of content by throwing revives at it. I also don’t think you should be able to to row spent revives at it either, whether farmed units or purchased, but at that point it’s up to the summoner to decide if they want to do that.

No_Dollar_Bill

All I'll say to anyone at Kabam or here is go watch Seatin's video he put up on YouTube. Sums up anything I could say better than I ever could. Thank you Jax for being the messenger here, you're a super good dude and you have a very tough job, much respect and admiration to you and I appreciate you being willing to stick your hand in the fire here as an intermediary between the players and the devs.

Dfour24

I their post they say that when creating difficult content they try to place an expected item usage in order to complete it. I would love to see their estimations for EOP Acceptance and know how many potions/revives they think would be sufficient. I highly doubt it's within the realm of reason.

Mackey

So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨
They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time
In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.
Not once did I say it wasn't reasonably achievable. I was getting at that this Apothecary will take you what? About 5-7 mins to explore ... for the average endgame player?... I'll concede we don't and can't know the actual answer to this yet but at 11.5k team rating recommendation i think its a fair guess. The solo events take longer than that.
And I just told you about how much longer.
I'm sorry, where was the times? Far as i can see you gave me the points required to obtain said revive and potential effort required to do so. Level Up I'll admit though would take less time subject to one having the iso and gold to do it
I mentioned the points required and a reasonable estimate for points per activity. I don't know how fast you are, but if you film yourself performing those activities and post it somewhere I can extrapolate an estimate for the approximate amount of time in minutes, if this is something you are having difficulty with on your own.

Yes you did but it will still take longer in minutes/seconds to achieve them milestones for the average paragon/TB player than it would in the Apothecary.

LilMaddogHT

Direct quote from the blog post below:

"When we look to develop new endgame content, we set goals for that content.
We set challenge goals: how hard should it be? We set progression goals: how powerful should Summoners have to be to tackle it and how powerful should they be once they complete it? We set time goals: how much active play time should it require and how many days/weeks/months should it take for Summoners at various progression tiers to complete it? And we set consumable goals: how many units, potions, revives, boosts, etc., do we expect players to use. "

So @Kabam Jax , would the design team be able to provide the aforemetioned goals for the following content?
1. Carina's vol 1: Miike's revenge, Dance off, O canada, Inhuman stamina (assuming all required champs available and at max rank and sig)
2. Carina's vol 2: Mutant domination, Carina's challengers, Revolution, (assuming all required champs at 6* R3 appropriate sig level)
3. All of Carina's vol 3 challenges (assuming all required champs available at 6* R4 appropriae sig level but no champ swap gate used.)

This would allow us players to see how realistic the new consumable economy update allows us to handle these types of content.

You know... I would also love to see these goals. 👀 Wouldn't it be awesome to see how well (or not) you do compared to the baseline goal? While not for everyone (not everyone will care, not everyone wants to see how good/bad they are) but I think it would be awesome to celebrate that you took down some content where you used less items, resources compared to the 'goal' and the average end results after a period of time. Use more... get good, plan better, roster build, etc. Give us something to shoot for & improve. 🤷🏼‍♂️

DNA3000

You know... I would also love to see these goals. 👀

So would I, but we're never likely going to see them.

I don't think the content design goals look like anything players are imagining them to look like. I imagine players are thinking that the content is designed to "take so many revives" and anyone who spends more is spending more than intended, and anyone who spends less is doing better than they expected.

That's almost certainly *not* how the content is designed. There's no specific expectation of resource usage for any one player. Rather, they expect a certain percentage of the target player group to beat it, and a certain percentage to fail to complete it. They expect harder content to have more resources spent on it than easier content, not because they are trying to make hard content that eats resources from players, but because that's part of the *definition* of harder content. If the rewards are desirable and the content is harder, players will spend more to complete it because they will be willing to do so.

So the targets are more likely to be statistical, and due to their interrelated nature with other factors, unlikely to be meaningful without context. You'd need to know what the intended target of the content was, what the histographical distribution of that target audience was within the playerbase, the historical tendencies of those players to tackle similar content, among other things to give the design goals sufficient background. Some of which will be proprietary, and some of which will not be in an exportable form.

VestasCure

So basically it's just another 2 revives per week in comparison to the original change announced 🤨
They literally said in the post that the individual changes seem small but combined they have a big impact, which is true. Did you just choose to skip over that bit or just choosing to only look at one change for some reason?

The biggest change is to the 22hr events being level 2, so we're no longer stockpiling one kind of revive but 2, so in essence doubling the amount of guaranteed revives we can stockpile (while also slightly increasing the cap, which is nice but not a huge deal). We're definitely worse off than before, but overall it's not a horrible compromise.
The solo event isn't guaranteed in the sense that apothecary is though, is it? You run 2 paths in Apothecary and get 1 revive per day guaranteed, solo events require much more time than that so can't be included as a guaranteed revive in the same way. Either way though you're still only getting 1 revive from the solo events if you do go for them ... which is the same quantity as before, just now you get a little more health (yay). If you're building up level 2s faster than before as a side effect of the solo event change then that means you're losing 1 level 1 revive at the same time
In the 22 hr solo events the revive shows up in milestone 3. For the arena event, that is 3750 points. 5* and 6* activity is going to be between 120 and 250 points per fight, or something like about 15 to 30 fights, or 5 to 10 arena rounds. That's reasonably achievable.

For the Level Up event that is 19360 points. Level up activity is in the range of 700 to 1k points per level for 5* and 6* champs, which is easily achievable with one level ups to max rank and some change.

For hero use it is 125000 points. The point range for typical activity with 5* and 6* champs is 2-4k points per fight, which implies something like 42 fights plus or minus. In terms of farming revives, this is also not an exceptional level of activity.

Event Quest requires 11700 points, which might be the trickiest one to sustain without very careful content management. It would be, say, six Uncollected EQ paths. If I was farming revives, this would be the one I would least be able to count on reliably. although one path to get this would be to do both paths of the expert proving grounds and both paths of the daily expert class quest, which would be 8400 of the 11700 points required. The rest could be gotten from normal monthly EQ activity.
Not once did I say it wasn't reasonably achievable. I was getting at that this Apothecary will take you what? About 5-7 mins to explore ... for the average endgame player?... I'll concede we don't and can't know the actual answer to this yet but at 11.5k team rating recommendation i think its a fair guess. The solo events take longer than that.
And I just told you about how much longer.
I'm sorry, where was the times? Far as i can see you gave me the points required to obtain said revive and potential effort required to do so. Level Up I'll admit though would take less time subject to one having the iso and gold to do it
I mentioned the points required and a reasonable estimate for points per activity. I don't know how fast you are, but if you film yourself performing those activities and post it somewhere I can extrapolate an estimate for the approximate amount of time in minutes, if this is something you are having difficulty with on your own.
Yes you did but it will still take longer in minutes/seconds to achieve them milestones for the average paragon/TB player than it would in the Apothecary.

You get the rewards for spending time doing things you should already be doing to progress in the game (leveling champs, a small bit of arena, EQ, etc.). The (small) time investment is essentially irrelevant because it's stuff you should be doing already, not like they're saying "go do this random quest you did 3 years ago to get this daily revive." You are literally complaining that they're buffing something you receive from actively playing the game. I will never understand this kind of argument. It equates to "I don't like this game because they're making me play the game."

Suros_moon

You know... I would also love to see these goals. 👀
So would I, but we're never likely going to see them.

I don't think the content design goals look like anything players are imagining them to look like. I imagine players are thinking that the content is designed to "take so many revives" and anyone who spends more is spending more than intended, and anyone who spends less is doing better than they expected.

That's almost certainly *not* how the content is designed. There's no specific expectation of resource usage for any one player. Rather, they expect a certain percentage of the target player group to beat it, and a certain percentage to fail to complete it. They expect harder content to have more resources spent on it than easier content, not because they are trying to make hard content that eats resources from players, but because that's part of the *definition* of harder content. If the rewards are desirable and the content is harder, players will spend more to complete it because they will be willing to do so.

So the targets are more likely to be statistical, and due to their interrelated nature with other factors, unlikely to be meaningful without context. You'd need to know what the intended target of the content was, what the histographical distribution of that target audience was within the playerbase, the historical tendencies of those players to tackle similar content, among other things to give the design goals sufficient background. Some of which will be proprietary, and some of which will not be in an exportable form.

Im gonna reach out in good faith. Would you be willing to debate me on this subject live? No personal attacks. No dogpiles. No gas lighting. We can go line by line about our disagreements in a healthy discussion about the topic and greater context of the changes as a whole. I think flushing these points out in good detail would benefit the community as a whole (you could flush out details of your points un-interupted while I could do the same for my criticisms). We could also work toward something more palatable for the community after the debate portion. I imagine we could come up with a good idea or two

Ironman3000

Still pretty garbage. A slight easing of restrictions, which we all knew was coming, and we just have to accept it.
In this post you stated that in your opinion, 6-8 revives grindable from the Apothecary would be fair to players. That would imply that a player without the Sigil would be able to accumulate 15 revives in inventory and then between 60 and 80 revives during a 14 day window from the Apothecary. That would be between 75 and 95 revives.

Under the new proposed system, a player without the Sigil would be able to accumulate 20 level 1 revives and 20 level 2 revives in non-expiring inventory alone. They would also be able to farm 14 level 1 revives from the Apothecary (since it would now be open seven days a week), and in theory up to 14 additional level 2 revives from 22 hr solo events. That's between 54 and 68 revives, depending on how many 22 hour events you could grab the revives from. The revive shows up in milestone 3 of the 22hr solo event, so that's not particularly hard to get.

Your own suggestion implied a 75 to 95 revive stockpile achievable. The modifications announced allow for 68 revives, half of which would be L2 revives. That's actually pretty close in value, and arguably better value than the low end of your own range.

They kept it at 1, so nowhere near 6-8. Increasing the cap doesn't change how much you ccan earn in a day.

GroundedWisdom

I'm sorry, but I have to say it.
In over 7 years of playing this game, there has never been a source of Revs and Pots that paid out like that farm. People can debate that the content demands it, but in all those years, we've never seen numbers of people push through the highest content like we have as of late. You don't need back-end data to see that. You have people sharing their progress in a number of outlets.
Further to that, you have YouTube and other social media venues sharing information, as they do. Which is great. It's as it should be. When you have something like this, it becomes an increasingly compounded problem. More and more people just brute force through the content with an abnormal amount of Revives. As much as it seems somehow exclusive, that many people aren't meant to do the highest challenge right away. That's dangerous for the game design and it's unhealthy for the overall progress of Players because you end up with a top-heavy demographic and a rush for balancing and further content. Then we have issues like large numbers of Players at varying levels of progress all trying to get what they need in the same bubble.
That amount of farming Resources has never been intended. It might as well be said directly rather than split hairs about what the objectives actually are.
People are either at the point where they can do it as efficiently as possible, or they need to work towards it. What isn't a part of the design is allowing as many people as possible to do it all at once because that's not the intent of "Everest" content. It's exclusive by design.
Feel free to click the Disagree, but someone has to be realistic.

VestasCure

I'm sorry, but I have to say it.
In over 7 years of playing this game, there has never been a source of Revs and Pots that paid out like that farm. People can debate that the content demands it, but in all those years, we've never seen numbers of people push through the highest content like we have as of late. You don't need back-end data to see that. You have people sharing their progress in a number of outlets.
Further to that, you have YouTube and other social media venues sharing information, as they do. Which is great. It's as it should be. When you have something like this, it becomes an increasingly compounded problem. More and more people just brute force through the content with an abnormal amount of Revives. As much as it seems somehow exclusive, that many people aren't meant to do the highest challenge right away. That's dangerous for the game design and it's unhealthy for the overall progress of Players because you end up with a top-heavy demographic and a rush for balancing and further content. Then we have issues like large numbers of Players at varying levels of progress all trying to get what they need in the same bubble.
That amount of farming Resources has never been intended. It might as well be said directly rather than split hairs about what the objectives actually are.
People are either at the point where they can do it as efficiently as possible, or they need to work towards it. What isn't a part of the design is allowing as many people as possible to do it all at once because that's not the intent of "Everest" content. It's exclusive by design.
Feel free to click the Disagree, but someone has to be realistic.

You're going to get a massive amount of dislikes anytime you do something that even resembles agreeing with Kabam. The reality is Kabam inadvertently introduced a broken system (unlimited revive farm), and now are having to reign it in so as not to destroy their game in the long run, and people don't like anytime something seemingly beneficial to them gets changed. People can complain about how "greedy" kabam is and how they don't care about their players and blah blah all they want. It's a business people, they have to think about monetary results with everything they do, and yes, to an extent they need to be some form of greedy. They are here to make money, not purely here to just make their entire player base as happy as could be.

Could their compromise use some work? Absolutely. But you're delusional if you think keeping the old revive system in place is remotely healthy for the game going forward.

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GroundedWisdom

I'm sorry, but I have to say it.
In over 7 years of playing this game, there has never been a source of Revs and Pots that paid out like that farm. People can debate that the content demands it, but in all those years, we've never seen numbers of people push through the highest content like we have as of late. You don't need back-end data to see that. You have people sharing their progress in a number of outlets.
Further to that, you have YouTube and other social media venues sharing information, as they do. Which is great. It's as it should be. When you have something like this, it becomes an increasingly compounded problem. More and more people just brute force through the content with an abnormal amount of Revives. As much as it seems somehow exclusive, that many people aren't meant to do the highest challenge right away. That's dangerous for the game design and it's unhealthy for the overall progress of Players because you end up with a top-heavy demographic and a rush for balancing and further content. Then we have issues like large numbers of Players at varying levels of progress all trying to get what they need in the same bubble.
That amount of farming Resources has never been intended. It might as well be said directly rather than split hairs about what the objectives actually are.
People are either at the point where they can do it as efficiently as possible, or they need to work towards it. What isn't a part of the design is allowing as many people as possible to do it all at once because that's not the intent of "Everest" content. It's exclusive by design.
Feel free to click the Disagree, but someone has to be realistic.
You're going to get a massive amount of dislikes anytime you do something that even resembles agreeing with Kabam. The reality is Kabam inadvertently introduced a broken system (unlimited revive farm), and now are having to reign it in so as not to destroy their game in the long run, and people don't like anytime something seemingly beneficial to them gets changed. People can complain about how "greedy" kabam is and how they don't care about their players and blah blah all they want. It's a business people, they have to think about monetary results with everything they do, and yes, to an extent they need to be some form of greedy. They are here to make money, not purely here to just make their entire player base as happy as could be.

Could their compromise use some work? Absolutely. But you're delusional if you think keeping the old revive system in place is remotely healthy for the game going forward.

I think it definitely opened up a decent conversation, and given the state before the farm became a thing, it's definitely an improvement overall for acquisition. Also, it initiated a conversation about the overall state. Which is quite progressive considering it's been something mentioned for years. I just think the idea of leaving it open is not at all realistic, and if the idea is that the solution is supposed to look like some half measure of the farmable numbers, that's still half of crazy.

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Noob_Master69

I'm more than willing to put my efforts into grinding arena for units to use for potions. But with that shift, PLEASE make some changes to how arena is structured. The fact that you have to build of a weird streak so you can keep going and not reset back to zero. The all or nothing champs that just refuse to throw anything but a special 3.

Fighting is a hige part of the game and something I enjoy a lot, but Arena is just such an annoying mode, make it more accessible

Crys23

The inventory cap still feels low. Should've been doubled, at the very least. A permanent item trade in store should also be implemented.
2 lv1 for 1 lv2 revive, 2 lv2 for 1 lv3. Add in team revives too, 3-4 singles for 1 team.
Same with potions and attack/health/champion boosts, sig stones.

VestasCure

I'm sorry, but I have to say it.
In over 7 years of playing this game, there has never been a source of Revs and Pots that paid out like that farm. People can debate that the content demands it, but in all those years, we've never seen numbers of people push through the highest content like we have as of late. You don't need back-end data to see that. You have people sharing their progress in a number of outlets.
Further to that, you have YouTube and other social media venues sharing information, as they do. Which is great. It's as it should be. When you have something like this, it becomes an increasingly compounded problem. More and more people just brute force through the content with an abnormal amount of Revives. As much as it seems somehow exclusive, that many people aren't meant to do the highest challenge right away. That's dangerous for the game design and it's unhealthy for the overall progress of Players because you end up with a top-heavy demographic and a rush for balancing and further content. Then we have issues like large numbers of Players at varying levels of progress all trying to get what they need in the same bubble.
That amount of farming Resources has never been intended. It might as well be said directly rather than split hairs about what the objectives actually are.
People are either at the point where they can do it as efficiently as possible, or they need to work towards it. What isn't a part of the design is allowing as many people as possible to do it all at once because that's not the intent of "Everest" content. It's exclusive by design.
Feel free to click the Disagree, but someone has to be realistic.
You're going to get a massive amount of dislikes anytime you do something that even resembles agreeing with Kabam. The reality is Kabam inadvertently introduced a broken system (unlimited revive farm), and now are having to reign it in so as not to destroy their game in the long run, and people don't like anytime something seemingly beneficial to them gets changed. People can complain about how "greedy" kabam is and how they don't care about their players and blah blah all they want. It's a business people, they have to think about monetary results with everything they do, and yes, to an extent they need to be some form of greedy. They are here to make money, not purely here to just make their entire player base as happy as could be.

Could their compromise use some work? Absolutely. But you're delusional if you think keeping the old revive system in place is remotely healthy for the game going forward.
So them making a billion dollars off this game is not enough. Their mainstream revenue is from them have players spend money through their deals that come out almost daily. This is just another way to incentivize players to spend more $$$ than what they’re currently doing already.

First of all "billions" is hilarious.

Second, do you have any idea what "revenue" means? It's a terrible number to throw around when you're trying to value a company. A company could have 100 billion in revenue, if they have 101 billion in expenses they're losing money.

Lastly you want to pull a slide from Seatin's video that shows basically nothing. He came up with what, ~150k salary per employee? That's not an accurate number, as a good sum of that will be to higher level employees, so the average employee will likely be under 100k. Based on where Kabam has offices, and the line of work, that is not anything out of the ordinary. Realistically 100k for a software engineer is, in many places, very underpaid.

Seatin's video is catering to kids who play a mobile game or people that simply don't understand the economic world and trying to get them with a shock factor of "omg $150k per person they're so greedy." Continue to complain all you want because you don't like that a business making money means you aren't always 100% happy with what their decisions are. I could care less at this point - the internet is always going to be mad about something.

o_o

Since you all clearly didn't listen to the player base let me make this clear which direction this heading. You have now alienated people that aren't at the top of skill from playing end game content. So you will not only make less money from EOP and other mount Everest challenges like Carina but you'll also have way less participation.

Eventually you'll be forced to increase revive farming or bring it back but for now it is a calculated risk. Good luck with that as you'll be exposed in the coming months.
I don't think we have to worry a ton about alienating players who were willing to do EoP with 150 revives but are going to balk at doing it with 70. And the players that can't do it with 70 but can do it with 73 aren't going to balk at buying three, so we're talking about the players closer to the far end of the revive spectrum than the near end.

And a good chunk of the players that were setting up to do it with 100+ revives will eventually grow sufficiently to tackle it with less than that. So the players we are alienating are the players who a) need vastly more than 70 revives to do a piece of content, b) won't ever grow to need less revives, and c) must complete that content immediately or in the near future or they will refuse to continue playing the game.

If that's more than 0.5% of the playerbase I'll eat my hat.

You forgot a group of players this is alienating thought: d) players unhappy that this change is occurring at a time when inputs feel broken. That group seems sizeable.

Zolobacsi

You were doing farming when you had extra energy left (finished the monthly EQ,SQ,BG) or when you were focusing on something aka. few days farming and jump on the difficult content. Personally I (and I know I'm not alone) won't have time and energy to do it daily. For almost nothing. Lvl1 or lvl2 makes no difference, it doesn't matter if I loose 20% or 40% health on a 5 hit combo on my block that would clear 60% because I couldn't dash back thanks to the input issues and crazy AI. These changes change nothing.

GroundedWisdom

Since you all clearly didn't listen to the player base let me make this clear which direction this heading. You have now alienated people that aren't at the top of skill from playing end game content. So you will not only make less money from EOP and other mount Everest challenges like Carina but you'll also have way less participation.

Eventually you'll be forced to increase revive farming or bring it back but for now it is a calculated risk. Good luck with that as you'll be exposed in the coming months.
I don't think we have to worry a ton about alienating players who were willing to do EoP with 150 revives but are going to balk at doing it with 70. And the players that can't do it with 70 but can do it with 73 aren't going to balk at buying three, so we're talking about the players closer to the far end of the revive spectrum than the near end.

And a good chunk of the players that were setting up to do it with 100+ revives will eventually grow sufficiently to tackle it with less than that. So the players we are alienating are the players who a) need vastly more than 70 revives to do a piece of content, b) won't ever grow to need less revives, and c) must complete that content immediately or in the near future or they will refuse to continue playing the game.

If that's more than 0.5% of the playerbase I'll eat my hat.
You forgot a group of players this is alienating thought: d) players unhappy that this change is occurring at a time when inputs feel broken. That group seems sizeable.

They would not leave something like that open as some sort of indirect compensation.

Jazz_Messenger

Hey Summoners,
As Miike mentioned, because the last thread got cluttered, we wanted to provide you a new space to discuss the most recent changes announced in this followup post!

I just wanted to say that it was a very thoughtful write-up. I am a bit surprised by the number of “disagree”. I wish the inventory limits would be higher than 20 and expiration be extended to 30 days. But I thought the proposed update was reasonable.

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Stellar

don’t forget incursion revive and potion in your consumable economy !

NeinoIII

Just wanted to first state that I've never been one to farm revives until the recent announcement and I wanted to see what all the fuss was about. It does seem like quite a broken system but personally I'm not a huge fan of it because of how boring it is even with auto-fighting. So in theory these changes would likely benefit me as someone who doesn't farm so I don't fall behind others who use it.

That being said, does the section "In-Development Content is at Risk" not sit well with anyone else? Perhaps I'm getting the wrong take away but it seemed to me that if we don't suck it up and people stop complaining about the coming nerf, then Kabam will stop producing any meaningful content for players because it's a net loss. I'm by no means a game design expert but it seems to be cutting content would kill the game even faster. Mcoc isn't perfect but it's still something I personally enjoy playing and have made some incredible friends over the years because of it. It just seems rather passive aggressive to threaten to cut content.

GroundedWisdom

It's not a threat. It's an actual consequence of not resolving it. If the content doesn't serve to pace Players, then it fails to be effective. Essentially, they would end up with the same situation that led to 12.0.
I'm not talking about in terms of the reaction. The game had to change direction at that time because they came to an impass for content. With the old percentage-based System and the original God Tier, they couldn't design any content that posed a challenge. I mean quite literally. Those Champs bypassed anything. Which led them to not only change the Champions, but the entire system.
People feel a certain way about that whole situation and we still hear echos of it within the community, but the game itself would not have continued for very long without it. Considering we've had a good number of years after that, I'd say that proved itself true.

Hector_1475

For my progression level (early Paragon) and the time I put in this game, the 22hr event level up to revive 2 and the increase in the inventory caps (having the sigil) is huge in effect. At any given time, I will have 50 revives plus any others in overflow. With some units on the side, I will actually be able to complete high end content / **** bosses.

Sure, I will never be able to storm through Carinas challenges one after the other, but I don’t think the intend was in there for anyone to storm through them UNLESS, yes, they bought with actual cash those revives.

In their announcement pretty much they disclose that high end content does not have the profitability they designed it to have. And that is both honest and completely understandable for a company. We are in here for the entertainment. They are I here for the money. I understand and respect that.

The original announcement for the removal of the revive farming, did exactly that: took away the fighting chance of FTP players and low spenders to keep up with the game economy and progression. It widened the gap too much, at least for my personal idea of how close it should be. At least now they are giving FTP and low spenders a fighting chance. That’s all I was asking for.

GroundedWisdom

If people are cheating, I have no sympathy for them. This isn't something that's new. That was never intended to be the outcome of those Revs. I can remember a time when Energy Refills were more scarce, and this wouldn't have even been a thought. The economy has shifted, and they need to adjust other things to be in line with what's reasonable. A Revive Spring isn't something that was meant to happen.

daveyj_196_

Interesting how you tell us that the revive availability is currently overtuned but you won't acknowledge that you have overtuned the AI.