So you want Paragon level rewards without actually being Paragon? What about everyone else that actually put in time and effort, defeated 7.4.6 Kang and then took 3 6* to R4? If you want Paragon level rewards then you have to work for them
If he can do the fight successfully he shouldn’t be artificially gated out of it.
For years people on these forums act like each new threshold and title like unc, cav, tb, and paragon are these great accomplishment when it usually just comes down to how many units and revives do I need to beat the final boss or two.
It’s like when you first start on Act 5 but you can only use 5s champs. So your whole 4s roster that you’ve assembled to that point is useless, even though you could wreck the fights with them.
So instead you wait for RNG to give you a few good 5s that have the right counters and slowly grind through acts 5 and 6.
If someone can skill through the fight they shouldn’t be artificially held back just because they haven’t done other content. That’s the opposite of rewarding skill or merit.
If u can do the Paragon content you should focus on being Paragon... I will say u are right in a way...the SQ Lvl 5 should be completely locked not just the objective.. the whole quest...Kabam throws a bone and they still complain...
So you want Paragon level rewards without actually being Paragon? What about everyone else that actually put in time and effort, defeated 7.4.6 Kang and then took 3 6* to R4? If you want Paragon level rewards then you have to work for them
If he can do the fight successfully he shouldn’t be artificially gated out of it.
For years people on these forums act like each new threshold and title like unc, cav, tb, and paragon are these great accomplishment when it usually just comes down to how many units and revives do I need to beat the final boss or two.
It’s like when you first start on Act 5 but you can only use 5s champs. So your whole 4s roster that you’ve assembled to that point is useless, even though you could wreck the fights with them.
So instead you wait for RNG to give you a few good 5s that have the right counters and slowly grind through acts 5 and 6.
If someone can skill through the fight they shouldn’t be artificially held back just because they haven’t done other content. That’s the opposite of rewarding skill or merit.
But the objective is a bonus for being Paragon. OP is already getting plenty of rewards for completion and exploration of the SQ. That's already a lot to help them build their 6* roster and push for Paragon. Not to mention the fact that Threat Level 5 was advertised as Paragon difficulty so it was mainly targeting Paragons, not Cavs
You’re not addressing my point about gating though.
I completely understand putting the paragon login crystals behind achievements like paragon. It’s a reward for completing certain content that’s difficult and/or tedious.
But the ability to take on higher difficulty content should not be gated like this because it’s entirely artificial.
Titles like paragon or tb say nothing about your skill as a fighter in this game. It just says you grinded out some content or bought your way through it.
Gate some rewards behind it, that’s fine. But if you’re gating content behind it you’re making this game weaker not stronger because you’re not letting people try their skills at legitimately hard fights.
The 7s event this month that was supposed to be paragon only or you need need 5+ 7s, those fights aren’t hard at all. It’s just about collecting enough **** to do it (shards, mats, iso, gold).
Now give me a Carina’s type challenge of beat this path with only 3s or 4s, you might actually show who the legit players are and who the grinders and buyers are.
There are players stuck in Cav because they can't get past the 6.2 champion or GM and it's purely a skill issue on their end. Are you really going to say that TB or Paragon take no skill to achieve? If those people aren't skillful enough to earn the title then why should they have access to better rewards that target people who actually earned the it? What's even the point of letting them test their skills on harder fights when they haven't been able to complete the prerequisite ones? What guarantees that having access to better rewards will improve their skills and they won't rely on them as a crutch? They still won't be skilled enough to handle the type of fights we'll see in the next iterations of Paragon EQ. That is why some content is progression gated.
Sure you can spend and get the t5cc needed to R3 a 6*, or the catalysts required to take three 6* to R4, but you still need to be good enough to get through every major boss in act 6 and 7. The TB and Paragon titles are still a measure of skill.
You’ve made my point for me.
Earning the title is only partially about skill. It’s also about having an R3 6s, meaning collecting mats and having good enough RNG to get the right class t5 and a champion worth spending it on.
To your hypo, I’ll address the GM hypo because you just need a ranked up stagger/nullify/slow champ for the Champion fight.
If someone can’t get past the GM they don’t get the rewards for completing Act 6. That’s the consequence of not having enough skill
That’s the same consequence for those that can’t do Tier 5 monthly content. If you aren’t able to clear the lane or map or eq/sq you don’t get the loot. This is merit based. This is skill based. It rewards practice, learning, and good decision making in the game.
Under the system you’re advocating for, you just deny the chance to even TRY those difficulties until they’ve completed arbitrary requirements like have an R3 and beat the GM.
So what happens in a merit system is that you get the rewards or you lose.
What happens in your system is that you are actively prevented from earning rewards until you’ve spent enough time doing non-merit based tasks. You’re arguing that gating serves some sort of protective function so that players don’t attempt more than they can handle, but losing those fights serves the same purpose but doesn’t artificially hold back those that can.
So the only ones you are actually protecting are the ones who can’t do it yet anyway.
And this unnecessary protection is holding back those that can handle it.
And your still not understanding what we are saying. These fights in the side quest level 5 are similar to fights found in act 6 ,7 and 8. If they can do them that easily, getting paragon by pushing through the acts should be the priority, not the side quests.
No I get it. Your point is simple. If you’re good enough to do the sq then you should be good enough to the content. Easy peasy and I don’t disagree. I am good enough. I just don’t like being required to do something unrelated to get access to content otherwise doable. ?
I’m only going address this part because honestly everything else afterwards is moot.
You don’t like doing something that is REQUIRED for something unrelated? The objectives ARE related to your progression tier though. That one misconception about being able to do something and be rewarded for it without doing the requirements is the problem.
At many places I’ve worked IRL, I was more than able to do the same work as people in higher up positions and on occasion would do that work when they were unavailable, I did not however get the pay that they would for being in a “managerial” position because I did the work. I could argue until the cows came home that I should, and their argument would be “then you should work your way into management”.
The main difference between that situation and this progression gate is that there are limited vacancies in a job to progress, and there is nothing stopping people from progressing in the game other than their own willingness to do so.
If anyone chooses to not progress, that is on them and they should look at the additional rewards as a motivator to push further.
Let’s pretend the arbitrary activity required to unlock gates content isn’t get rank ups and reach a certain point in the story quests.
What if it’s login at least once an hour, 12 times a day. If you do that you are paragon, if you stop doing that, you drop back down to your next gates tier based on activity for the month.
Are you ok with that arbitrary type of gate?
Man, just get paragon or stop complaining, nothing is going to make you happy if you still feel so entitled to those rewards. If you don't want to grind for paragon and still want the rewards, then congratulations, you're just like everyone else.
Let’s pretend the arbitrary activity required to unlock gates content isn’t get rank ups and reach a certain point in the story quests.
What if it’s login at least once an hour, 12 times a day. If you do that you are paragon, if you stop doing that, you drop back down to your next gates tier based on activity for the month.
Are you ok with that arbitrary type of gate?
Logging in once an hour 12 times a day is an arbitrary gate. The requirements for TB and Paragon are not, just like everything else in the game. Take BGs for example, if you want GC rewards you need to get there. That by itself is a progression based gate, although in a smaller scale. Why? Because you need to put in time every season and progress through the ranks. I can certainly get to GC, but I am burned out by the game mode. Therefore, by choosing not to invest my time in it, I accept that I won't get better rewards. It is the exact same thing with story mode. Those who have chosen to put time and effort to get story content done get better rewards, and those who have chosen to not do it can't get the same level of rewards.
How are the requirements for tb and paragon not arbitrary. They require specific ranks of champs. 1, 3 of this rank and that?
It’s a requirement completely unrelated to completed any content.
As far as bgs, the rewards for bgs are not exclusive to bgs. I can get them anywhere.
What if you had to be in plat 1 war to be the next title above paragon? Or have an 80% win rate in bgs in order to do side quests?
So you want Paragon level rewards without actually being Paragon? What about everyone else that actually put in time and effort, defeated 7.4.6 Kang and then took 3 6* to R4? If you want Paragon level rewards then you have to work for them
If he can do the fight successfully he shouldn’t be artificially gated out of it.
For years people on these forums act like each new threshold and title like unc, cav, tb, and paragon are these great accomplishment when it usually just comes down to how many units and revives do I need to beat the final boss or two.
It’s like when you first start on Act 5 but you can only use 5s champs. So your whole 4s roster that you’ve assembled to that point is useless, even though you could wreck the fights with them.
So instead you wait for RNG to give you a few good 5s that have the right counters and slowly grind through acts 5 and 6.
If someone can skill through the fight they shouldn’t be artificially held back just because they haven’t done other content. That’s the opposite of rewarding skill or merit.
If u can do the Paragon content you should focus on being Paragon... I will say u are right in a way...the SQ Lvl 5 should be completely locked not just the objective.. the whole quest...Kabam throws a bone and they still complain...
So you want Paragon level rewards without actually being Paragon? What about everyone else that actually put in time and effort, defeated 7.4.6 Kang and then took 3 6* to R4? If you want Paragon level rewards then you have to work for them
If he can do the fight successfully he shouldn’t be artificially gated out of it.
For years people on these forums act like each new threshold and title like unc, cav, tb, and paragon are these great accomplishment when it usually just comes down to how many units and revives do I need to beat the final boss or two.
It’s like when you first start on Act 5 but you can only use 5s champs. So your whole 4s roster that you’ve assembled to that point is useless, even though you could wreck the fights with them.
So instead you wait for RNG to give you a few good 5s that have the right counters and slowly grind through acts 5 and 6.
If someone can skill through the fight they shouldn’t be artificially held back just because they haven’t done other content. That’s the opposite of rewarding skill or merit.
But the objective is a bonus for being Paragon. OP is already getting plenty of rewards for completion and exploration of the SQ. That's already a lot to help them build their 6* roster and push for Paragon. Not to mention the fact that Threat Level 5 was advertised as Paragon difficulty so it was mainly targeting Paragons, not Cavs
You’re not addressing my point about gating though.
I completely understand putting the paragon login crystals behind achievements like paragon. It’s a reward for completing certain content that’s difficult and/or tedious.
But the ability to take on higher difficulty content should not be gated like this because it’s entirely artificial.
Titles like paragon or tb say nothing about your skill as a fighter in this game. It just says you grinded out some content or bought your way through it.
Gate some rewards behind it, that’s fine. But if you’re gating content behind it you’re making this game weaker not stronger because you’re not letting people try their skills at legitimately hard fights.
The 7s event this month that was supposed to be paragon only or you need need 5+ 7s, those fights aren’t hard at all. It’s just about collecting enough **** to do it (shards, mats, iso, gold).
Now give me a Carina’s type challenge of beat this path with only 3s or 4s, you might actually show who the legit players are and who the grinders and buyers are.
There are players stuck in Cav because they can't get past the 6.2 champion or GM and it's purely a skill issue on their end. Are you really going to say that TB or Paragon take no skill to achieve? If those people aren't skillful enough to earn the title then why should they have access to better rewards that target people who actually earned the it? What's even the point of letting them test their skills on harder fights when they haven't been able to complete the prerequisite ones? What guarantees that having access to better rewards will improve their skills and they won't rely on them as a crutch? They still won't be skilled enough to handle the type of fights we'll see in the next iterations of Paragon EQ. That is why some content is progression gated.
Sure you can spend and get the t5cc needed to R3 a 6*, or the catalysts required to take three 6* to R4, but you still need to be good enough to get through every major boss in act 6 and 7. The TB and Paragon titles are still a measure of skill.
You’ve made my point for me.
Earning the title is only partially about skill. It’s also about having an R3 6s, meaning collecting mats and having good enough RNG to get the right class t5 and a champion worth spending it on.
To your hypo, I’ll address the GM hypo because you just need a ranked up stagger/nullify/slow champ for the Champion fight.
If someone can’t get past the GM they don’t get the rewards for completing Act 6. That’s the consequence of not having enough skill
That’s the same consequence for those that can’t do Tier 5 monthly content. If you aren’t able to clear the lane or map or eq/sq you don’t get the loot. This is merit based. This is skill based. It rewards practice, learning, and good decision making in the game.
Under the system you’re advocating for, you just deny the chance to even TRY those difficulties until they’ve completed arbitrary requirements like have an R3 and beat the GM.
So what happens in a merit system is that you get the rewards or you lose.
What happens in your system is that you are actively prevented from earning rewards until you’ve spent enough time doing non-merit based tasks. You’re arguing that gating serves some sort of protective function so that players don’t attempt more than they can handle, but losing those fights serves the same purpose but doesn’t artificially hold back those that can.
So the only ones you are actually protecting are the ones who can’t do it yet anyway.
And this unnecessary protection is holding back those that can handle it.
And your still not understanding what we are saying. These fights in the side quest level 5 are similar to fights found in act 6 ,7 and 8. If they can do them that easily, getting paragon by pushing through the acts should be the priority, not the side quests.
No I get it. Your point is simple. If you’re good enough to do the sq then you should be good enough to the content. Easy peasy and I don’t disagree. I am good enough. I just don’t like being required to do something unrelated to get access to content otherwise doable. ?
I’m only going address this part because honestly everything else afterwards is moot.
You don’t like doing something that is REQUIRED for something unrelated? The objectives ARE related to your progression tier though. That one misconception about being able to do something and be rewarded for it without doing the requirements is the problem.
At many places I’ve worked IRL, I was more than able to do the same work as people in higher up positions and on occasion would do that work when they were unavailable, I did not however get the pay that they would for being in a “managerial” position because I did the work. I could argue until the cows came home that I should, and their argument would be “then you should work your way into management”.
The main difference between that situation and this progression gate is that there are limited vacancies in a job to progress, and there is nothing stopping people from progressing in the game other than their own willingness to do so.
If anyone chooses to not progress, that is on them and they should look at the additional rewards as a motivator to push further.
That’s half right. Now imagine if you had to have three kids at least age 4 in order to make manager.
Let’s pretend the arbitrary activity required to unlock gates content isn’t get rank ups and reach a certain point in the story quests.
What if it’s login at least once an hour, 12 times a day. If you do that you are paragon, if you stop doing that, you drop back down to your next gates tier based on activity for the month.
Are you ok with that arbitrary type of gate?
Man, just get paragon or stop complaining, nothing is going to make you happy if you still feel so entitled to those rewards. If you don't want to grind for paragon and still want the rewards, then congratulations, you're just like everyone else.
You should look up the meanings for complaining and entitled because neither apply to me here. I’m making an argument.
When you learn the difference come back and maybe we can make some progress.
Let’s pretend the arbitrary activity required to unlock gates content isn’t get rank ups and reach a certain point in the story quests.
What if it’s login at least once an hour, 12 times a day. If you do that you are paragon, if you stop doing that, you drop back down to your next gates tier based on activity for the month.
Are you ok with that arbitrary type of gate?
Man, just get paragon or stop complaining, nothing is going to make you happy if you still feel so entitled to those rewards. If you don't want to grind for paragon and still want the rewards, then congratulations, you're just like everyone else.
You should look up the meanings for complaining and entitled because neither apply to me here. I’m making an argument.
When you learn the difference come back and maybe we can make some progress.
So you want Paragon level rewards without actually being Paragon? What about everyone else that actually put in time and effort, defeated 7.4.6 Kang and then took 3 6* to R4? If you want Paragon level rewards then you have to work for them
If he can do the fight successfully he shouldn’t be artificially gated out of it.
For years people on these forums act like each new threshold and title like unc, cav, tb, and paragon are these great accomplishment when it usually just comes down to how many units and revives do I need to beat the final boss or two.
It’s like when you first start on Act 5 but you can only use 5s champs. So your whole 4s roster that you’ve assembled to that point is useless, even though you could wreck the fights with them.
So instead you wait for RNG to give you a few good 5s that have the right counters and slowly grind through acts 5 and 6.
If someone can skill through the fight they shouldn’t be artificially held back just because they haven’t done other content. That’s the opposite of rewarding skill or merit.
If u can do the Paragon content you should focus on being Paragon... I will say u are right in a way...the SQ Lvl 5 should be completely locked not just the objective.. the whole quest...Kabam throws a bone and they still complain...
So you want Paragon level rewards without actually being Paragon? What about everyone else that actually put in time and effort, defeated 7.4.6 Kang and then took 3 6* to R4? If you want Paragon level rewards then you have to work for them
If he can do the fight successfully he shouldn’t be artificially gated out of it.
For years people on these forums act like each new threshold and title like unc, cav, tb, and paragon are these great accomplishment when it usually just comes down to how many units and revives do I need to beat the final boss or two.
It’s like when you first start on Act 5 but you can only use 5s champs. So your whole 4s roster that you’ve assembled to that point is useless, even though you could wreck the fights with them.
So instead you wait for RNG to give you a few good 5s that have the right counters and slowly grind through acts 5 and 6.
If someone can skill through the fight they shouldn’t be artificially held back just because they haven’t done other content. That’s the opposite of rewarding skill or merit.
But the objective is a bonus for being Paragon. OP is already getting plenty of rewards for completion and exploration of the SQ. That's already a lot to help them build their 6* roster and push for Paragon. Not to mention the fact that Threat Level 5 was advertised as Paragon difficulty so it was mainly targeting Paragons, not Cavs
You’re not addressing my point about gating though.
I completely understand putting the paragon login crystals behind achievements like paragon. It’s a reward for completing certain content that’s difficult and/or tedious.
But the ability to take on higher difficulty content should not be gated like this because it’s entirely artificial.
Titles like paragon or tb say nothing about your skill as a fighter in this game. It just says you grinded out some content or bought your way through it.
Gate some rewards behind it, that’s fine. But if you’re gating content behind it you’re making this game weaker not stronger because you’re not letting people try their skills at legitimately hard fights.
The 7s event this month that was supposed to be paragon only or you need need 5+ 7s, those fights aren’t hard at all. It’s just about collecting enough **** to do it (shards, mats, iso, gold).
Now give me a Carina’s type challenge of beat this path with only 3s or 4s, you might actually show who the legit players are and who the grinders and buyers are.
There are players stuck in Cav because they can't get past the 6.2 champion or GM and it's purely a skill issue on their end. Are you really going to say that TB or Paragon take no skill to achieve? If those people aren't skillful enough to earn the title then why should they have access to better rewards that target people who actually earned the it? What's even the point of letting them test their skills on harder fights when they haven't been able to complete the prerequisite ones? What guarantees that having access to better rewards will improve their skills and they won't rely on them as a crutch? They still won't be skilled enough to handle the type of fights we'll see in the next iterations of Paragon EQ. That is why some content is progression gated.
Sure you can spend and get the t5cc needed to R3 a 6*, or the catalysts required to take three 6* to R4, but you still need to be good enough to get through every major boss in act 6 and 7. The TB and Paragon titles are still a measure of skill.
You’ve made my point for me.
Earning the title is only partially about skill. It’s also about having an R3 6s, meaning collecting mats and having good enough RNG to get the right class t5 and a champion worth spending it on.
To your hypo, I’ll address the GM hypo because you just need a ranked up stagger/nullify/slow champ for the Champion fight.
If someone can’t get past the GM they don’t get the rewards for completing Act 6. That’s the consequence of not having enough skill
That’s the same consequence for those that can’t do Tier 5 monthly content. If you aren’t able to clear the lane or map or eq/sq you don’t get the loot. This is merit based. This is skill based. It rewards practice, learning, and good decision making in the game.
Under the system you’re advocating for, you just deny the chance to even TRY those difficulties until they’ve completed arbitrary requirements like have an R3 and beat the GM.
So what happens in a merit system is that you get the rewards or you lose.
What happens in your system is that you are actively prevented from earning rewards until you’ve spent enough time doing non-merit based tasks. You’re arguing that gating serves some sort of protective function so that players don’t attempt more than they can handle, but losing those fights serves the same purpose but doesn’t artificially hold back those that can.
So the only ones you are actually protecting are the ones who can’t do it yet anyway.
And this unnecessary protection is holding back those that can handle it.
And your still not understanding what we are saying. These fights in the side quest level 5 are similar to fights found in act 6 ,7 and 8. If they can do them that easily, getting paragon by pushing through the acts should be the priority, not the side quests.
No I get it. Your point is simple. If you’re good enough to do the sq then you should be good enough to the content. Easy peasy and I don’t disagree. I am good enough. I just don’t like being required to do something unrelated to get access to content otherwise doable. ?
I’m only going address this part because honestly everything else afterwards is moot.
You don’t like doing something that is REQUIRED for something unrelated? The objectives ARE related to your progression tier though. That one misconception about being able to do something and be rewarded for it without doing the requirements is the problem.
At many places I’ve worked IRL, I was more than able to do the same work as people in higher up positions and on occasion would do that work when they were unavailable, I did not however get the pay that they would for being in a “managerial” position because I did the work. I could argue until the cows came home that I should, and their argument would be “then you should work your way into management”.
The main difference between that situation and this progression gate is that there are limited vacancies in a job to progress, and there is nothing stopping people from progressing in the game other than their own willingness to do so.
If anyone chooses to not progress, that is on them and they should look at the additional rewards as a motivator to push further.
That’s half right. Now imagine if you had to have three kids at least age 4 in order to make manager.
Then you’re where Kabam landed for tb and paragon
No, it’s more like “do you have 3 qualifications in this field to make manager”.
Just because you think they’re arbitrary, doesn’t mean that it is. It just means that you’re wrong and can’t admit it (:
Let’s pretend the arbitrary activity required to unlock gates content isn’t get rank ups and reach a certain point in the story quests.
What if it’s login at least once an hour, 12 times a day. If you do that you are paragon, if you stop doing that, you drop back down to your next gates tier based on activity for the month.
Are you ok with that arbitrary type of gate?
Logging in once an hour 12 times a day is an arbitrary gate. The requirements for TB and Paragon are not, just like everything else in the game. Take BGs for example, if you want GC rewards you need to get there. That by itself is a progression based gate, although in a smaller scale. Why? Because you need to put in time every season and progress through the ranks. I can certainly get to GC, but I am burned out by the game mode. Therefore, by choosing not to invest my time in it, I accept that I won't get better rewards. It is the exact same thing with story mode. Those who have chosen to put time and effort to get story content done get better rewards, and those who have chosen to not do it can't get the same level of rewards.
How are the requirements for tb and paragon not arbitrary. They require specific ranks of champs. 1, 3 of this rank and that?
It’s a requirement completely unrelated to completed any content.
As far as bgs, the rewards for bgs are not exclusive to bgs. I can get them anywhere.
What if you had to be in plat 1 war to be the next title above paragon? Or have an 80% win rate in bgs in order to do side quests?
They are not arbitrary because it is natural progression. T5CC is incredibly common nowadays and most Cavs will have at least one R3 by the time they beat GM. R4 materials are also becoming easier to acquire everyday.
Unrelated to completed any content? You literally get the materials required for completing story content.
Yes you can get BGs rewards by completing other content, same way you can get the generic 6* awakening gem by completing other content in-game. Why are you complaining then?
Once again, those two instances are arbitrary, unlike the requirements to get TB and Paragon. It is your choice to not invest time into story content. Do not complain when you don't get the same rewards as those who have actually put time into it.
Let’s pretend the arbitrary activity required to unlock gates content isn’t get rank ups and reach a certain point in the story quests.
What if it’s login at least once an hour, 12 times a day. If you do that you are paragon, if you stop doing that, you drop back down to your next gates tier based on activity for the month.
Are you ok with that arbitrary type of gate?
Logging in once an hour 12 times a day is an arbitrary gate. The requirements for TB and Paragon are not, just like everything else in the game. Take BGs for example, if you want GC rewards you need to get there. That by itself is a progression based gate, although in a smaller scale. Why? Because you need to put in time every season and progress through the ranks. I can certainly get to GC, but I am burned out by the game mode. Therefore, by choosing not to invest my time in it, I accept that I won't get better rewards. It is the exact same thing with story mode. Those who have chosen to put time and effort to get story content done get better rewards, and those who have chosen to not do it can't get the same level of rewards.
How are the requirements for tb and paragon not arbitrary. They require specific ranks of champs. 1, 3 of this rank and that?
It’s a requirement completely unrelated to completed any content.
You right, actually. Roster requirements are, for the most part, unrelated to the ability to complete content. So why do we have them?
So let's wave a magic wand and eliminate them. Now progression is only gated to completing content. Anyone who can complete the content progresses to the next tier, and the next and the next.
Of course, if that's the only thing gating progress, we have to be careful about designing that content. We can't make it too easy, or people will progress too quickly. We have to make it hard enough that we don't have a flood of people destroying the content instantly every time it is released. Content has to have a shelf life longer than the release date. So we need to make sure that even if the top 1% of 1% will blast through everything, the top 10% don't all obliterate the next progression tier requirements, because we simply do not have the ability to make content fast enough to allow for that.
So the content that gates progress has to be hard. Hard enough to slow down even the top 5% of players who possess top 5% rosters. Those players will have to take longer, or maybe spend more, or some combination of both to get past that content. What about the average player? When is he going to get past that content gate? Possibly: never. If it is hard enough to challenge the top 10% or the top 5% of especially the top 1%, it will likely be too difficult for average players. Foreverr. The content that slows the top tier players will completely roadblock the bottom 25%.
We can have a game where the end gamers keep moving on, to Act 7 and then Act 8 and then Act 9, and everyone else just settles for getting stuck at Act 6 indefinitely. But that's a very hostile game to new players. If instead we make the progressional content easy enough that average players can *eventually* get passed it, even if it takes them longer, costs them more, or requires them to build much stronger rosters, then it will be a non-existent progression requirement for higher tier players. To make progression gates that function properly across a wider range of players, we need to make the requirements something that top tier players can do quickly (but not too quickly) and average players can do eventually. And the way the game does this is to make progressional content (specifically, the Acts) with difficulty that is high, but not so high that average players won't be able to overcome it eventually, while also adding a roster development hurdle that is also difficult to achieve initially, but gets easier over time for lower tier players.
That's why we have the dual progression gates. We have content gates and we have roster development gates. Content is designed to be kinda hard but not too hard, so that it is interesting enough for the end game players that first encounter it at launch but is easy enough for average players to eventually overcome, and a roster gate that is specifically chosen to be something even most end game players will not necessarily have on day one, but will quickly be able to chase after, while again, lower players will have an easier time reaching those requirements when the resources become more available over time.
Basically, the roster requirement is there because a game with only a content gate forces the content gates to be too hard for average players once the game progresses far enough along that the difference between top tier players and average tier players becomes too wide to support with just content gates.
To tackle a different related subject. Why are the objectives gated to progress? Why do they punish lower progress players? Actually, everyone has that backwards. The Paragon objectives don't punish lower tier players. They are there to *benefit* lower tier players.
We can't gate side quest content by difficulty. Why not? Because that would mean the only side quests we could ever offer players would be maximum difficulty quests. But why must all content have the maximum difficulty? Why can't a side quest be a more moderate difficulty thing that allows players to be engaged, but not pushed to their absolute limits? Because if we say anyone who could do it gets the rewards and we put Paragon-tier rewards in the quest, the difficulty of the quest must be high enough that lower tier players will not, in general, be able to get them (unless they are extremely strong players). We can't make an easy rewarding quest, because an easy rewarding Paragon quest is doable by Cavalier players.
We could just lock the quest itself. If only Paragons can do it, then we can make the quest have hard difficulty in one month and an easy difficulty in another month, so the Paragons are sometimes challenged and sometimes given an easy one as a change of pace, without worrying about whether the difficulty is properly gating players. But that means TBs and Cavs will be just plain locked out of those quests entirely.
The current SQ system is a more moderate system where (at least sometimes) everyone can *attempt* the maps and get *some* of the rewards, but just the top tier stuff is gated to Paragons with the Paragon objectives. That allows TBs and lower to get some of the benefits of being able to run the top tier maps, just not the ones targeting Paragon players.
We can't just let everyone do whatever they can, because if we do that we can never give the players a break: we can't make an easy map, because an easy map allows lower tier players to get excessive rewards. Saying "if I can do it I deserve it" doesn't make sense when the map is deliberately easy. We can (and sometimes do) lock maps to progression tiers. But in many cases like most recent side quests, we don't lock the map we just gate the top Paragon reward. That's a very reasonable compromise.
Of course, the forums being the forums, allowing lower tier players to run the map and get *some* of the rewards is being seen as punishing them by not giving them *all* the rewards, when the alternative would not be that they would get *all* of the rewards, it would be that they would get *none* of the rewards.
To tackle a different related subject. Why are the objectives gated to progress? Why do they punish lower progress players? Actually, everyone has that backwards. The Paragon objectives don't punish lower tier players. They are there to *benefit* lower tier players.
We can't gate side quest content by difficulty. Why not? Because that would mean the only side quests we could ever offer players would be maximum difficulty quests. But why must all content have the maximum difficulty? Why can't a side quest be a more moderate difficulty thing that allows players to be engaged, but not pushed to their absolute limits? Because if we say anyone who could do it gets the rewards and we put Paragon-tier rewards in the quest, the difficulty of the quest must be high enough that lower tier players will not, in general, be able to get them (unless they are extremely strong players). We can't make an easy rewarding quest, because an easy rewarding Paragon quest is doable by Cavalier players.
We could just lock the quest itself. If only Paragons can do it, then we can make the quest have hard difficulty in one month and an easy difficulty in another month, so the Paragons are sometimes challenged and sometimes given an easy one as a change of pace, without worrying about whether the difficulty is properly gating players. But that means TBs and Cavs will be just plain locked out of those quests entirely.
The current SQ system is a more moderate system where (at least sometimes) everyone can *attempt* the maps and get *some* of the rewards, but just the top tier stuff is gated to Paragons with the Paragon objectives. That allows TBs and lower to get some of the benefits of being able to run the top tier maps, just not the ones targeting Paragon players.
We can't just let everyone do whatever they can, because if we do that we can never give the players a break: we can't make an easy map, because an easy map allows lower tier players to get excessive rewards. Saying "if I can do it I deserve it" doesn't make sense when the map is deliberately easy. We can (and sometimes do) lock maps to progression tiers. But in many cases like most recent side quests, we don't lock the map we just gate the top Paragon reward. That's a very reasonable compromise.
Of course, the forums being the forums, allowing lower tier players to run the map and get *some* of the rewards is being seen as punishing them by not giving them *all* the rewards, when the alternative would not be that they would get *all* of the rewards, it would be that they would get *none* of the rewards.
Y'know you actually bring up some great points. I definitely see how there's a sort of necessity for some rewards to be progression locked.
I think maybe I haven't made it clear in my last few messages but I'm not pushing for any sort of rewards anymore. I get why that's problematic. Really I just think that the side quest was a bit poorly formatted this month.
Let’s pretend the arbitrary activity required to unlock gates content isn’t get rank ups and reach a certain point in the story quests.
What if it’s login at least once an hour, 12 times a day. If you do that you are paragon, if you stop doing that, you drop back down to your next gates tier based on activity for the month.
Are you ok with that arbitrary type of gate?
Logging in once an hour 12 times a day is an arbitrary gate. The requirements for TB and Paragon are not, just like everything else in the game. Take BGs for example, if you want GC rewards you need to get there. That by itself is a progression based gate, although in a smaller scale. Why? Because you need to put in time every season and progress through the ranks. I can certainly get to GC, but I am burned out by the game mode. Therefore, by choosing not to invest my time in it, I accept that I won't get better rewards. It is the exact same thing with story mode. Those who have chosen to put time and effort to get story content done get better rewards, and those who have chosen to not do it can't get the same level of rewards.
How are the requirements for tb and paragon not arbitrary. They require specific ranks of champs. 1, 3 of this rank and that?
It’s a requirement completely unrelated to completed any content.
You right, actually. Roster requirements are, for the most part, unrelated to the ability to complete content. So why do we have them?
So let's wave a magic wand and eliminate them. Now progression is only gated to completing content. Anyone who can complete the content progresses to the next tier, and the next and the next.
Of course, if that's the only thing gating progress, we have to be careful about designing that content. We can't make it too easy, or people will progress too quickly. We have to make it hard enough that we don't have a flood of people destroying the content instantly every time it is released. Content has to have a shelf life longer than the release date. So we need to make sure that even if the top 1% of 1% will blast through everything, the top 10% don't all obliterate the next progression tier requirements, because we simply do not have the ability to make content fast enough to allow for that.
So the content that gates progress has to be hard. Hard enough to slow down even the top 5% of players who possess top 5% rosters. Those players will have to take longer, or maybe spend more, or some combination of both to get past that content. What about the average player? When is he going to get past that content gate? Possibly: never. If it is hard enough to challenge the top 10% or the top 5% of especially the top 1%, it will likely be too difficult for average players. Foreverr. The content that slows the top tier players will completely roadblock the bottom 25%.
We can have a game where the end gamers keep moving on, to Act 7 and then Act 8 and then Act 9, and everyone else just settles for getting stuck at Act 6 indefinitely. But that's a very hostile game to new players. If instead we make the progressional content easy enough that average players can *eventually* get passed it, even if it takes them longer, costs them more, or requires them to build much stronger rosters, then it will be a non-existent progression requirement for higher tier players. To make progression gates that function properly across a wider range of players, we need to make the requirements something that top tier players can do quickly (but not too quickly) and average players can do eventually. And the way the game does this is to make progressional content (specifically, the Acts) with difficulty that is high, but not so high that average players won't be able to overcome it eventually, while also adding a roster development hurdle that is also difficult to achieve initially, but gets easier over time for lower tier players.
That's why we have the dual progression gates. We have content gates and we have roster development gates. Content is designed to be kinda hard but not too hard, so that it is interesting enough for the end game players that first encounter it at launch but is easy enough for average players to eventually overcome, and a roster gate that is specifically chosen to be something even most end game players will not necessarily have on day one, but will quickly be able to chase after, while again, lower players will have an easier time reaching those requirements when the resources become more available over time.
Basically, the roster requirement is there because a game with only a content gate forces the content gates to be too hard for average players once the game progresses far enough along that the difference between top tier players and average tier players becomes too wide to support with just content gates.
Thanks for both of the thoughtful responses. I genuinely appreciate the time and thought that went into that. It’s nice to have someone offer something more than a conclusion to support their viewpoint.
My question now though is, your model is predicated on story progression in a vacuum. If someone gets stuck at a certain point in story mode then they can’t get past it. But story mode doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
Alternate methods of rewards from aq, war, eq, sq, bgs, even variants allow you to gain champs and rank those champs up.
So if we wave that magic wand again and remove the roster requirement, we still give everyone the option to grind up champs through all the non-story content to help push them through the content they’re stuck in. But they all do it at the level they’re capable of rather than at a dev determined cutoff.
Maybe that’s tier 3 eq and sq completion, with some lanes done in tier 4. And next month it’s the same with more lanes done in tier 4. But it’s unrestricted progression based on capability.
In effect it’s a natural progression versus the artificial gating.
Let’s pretend the arbitrary activity required to unlock gates content isn’t get rank ups and reach a certain point in the story quests.
What if it’s login at least once an hour, 12 times a day. If you do that you are paragon, if you stop doing that, you drop back down to your next gates tier based on activity for the month.
Are you ok with that arbitrary type of gate?
Logging in once an hour 12 times a day is an arbitrary gate. The requirements for TB and Paragon are not, just like everything else in the game. Take BGs for example, if you want GC rewards you need to get there. That by itself is a progression based gate, although in a smaller scale. Why? Because you need to put in time every season and progress through the ranks. I can certainly get to GC, but I am burned out by the game mode. Therefore, by choosing not to invest my time in it, I accept that I won't get better rewards. It is the exact same thing with story mode. Those who have chosen to put time and effort to get story content done get better rewards, and those who have chosen to not do it can't get the same level of rewards.
How are the requirements for tb and paragon not arbitrary. They require specific ranks of champs. 1, 3 of this rank and that?
It’s a requirement completely unrelated to completed any content.
You right, actually. Roster requirements are, for the most part, unrelated to the ability to complete content. So why do we have them?
So let's wave a magic wand and eliminate them. Now progression is only gated to completing content. Anyone who can complete the content progresses to the next tier, and the next and the next.
Of course, if that's the only thing gating progress, we have to be careful about designing that content. We can't make it too easy, or people will progress too quickly. We have to make it hard enough that we don't have a flood of people destroying the content instantly every time it is released. Content has to have a shelf life longer than the release date. So we need to make sure that even if the top 1% of 1% will blast through everything, the top 10% don't all obliterate the next progression tier requirements, because we simply do not have the ability to make content fast enough to allow for that.
So the content that gates progress has to be hard. Hard enough to slow down even the top 5% of players who possess top 5% rosters. Those players will have to take longer, or maybe spend more, or some combination of both to get past that content. What about the average player? When is he going to get past that content gate? Possibly: never. If it is hard enough to challenge the top 10% or the top 5% of especially the top 1%, it will likely be too difficult for average players. Foreverr. The content that slows the top tier players will completely roadblock the bottom 25%.
We can have a game where the end gamers keep moving on, to Act 7 and then Act 8 and then Act 9, and everyone else just settles for getting stuck at Act 6 indefinitely. But that's a very hostile game to new players. If instead we make the progressional content easy enough that average players can *eventually* get passed it, even if it takes them longer, costs them more, or requires them to build much stronger rosters, then it will be a non-existent progression requirement for higher tier players. To make progression gates that function properly across a wider range of players, we need to make the requirements something that top tier players can do quickly (but not too quickly) and average players can do eventually. And the way the game does this is to make progressional content (specifically, the Acts) with difficulty that is high, but not so high that average players won't be able to overcome it eventually, while also adding a roster development hurdle that is also difficult to achieve initially, but gets easier over time for lower tier players.
That's why we have the dual progression gates. We have content gates and we have roster development gates. Content is designed to be kinda hard but not too hard, so that it is interesting enough for the end game players that first encounter it at launch but is easy enough for average players to eventually overcome, and a roster gate that is specifically chosen to be something even most end game players will not necessarily have on day one, but will quickly be able to chase after, while again, lower players will have an easier time reaching those requirements when the resources become more available over time.
Basically, the roster requirement is there because a game with only a content gate forces the content gates to be too hard for average players once the game progresses far enough along that the difference between top tier players and average tier players becomes too wide to support with just content gates.
Thanks for both of the thoughtful responses. I genuinely appreciate the time and thought that went into that. It’s nice to have someone offer something more than a conclusion to support their viewpoint.
My question now though is, your model is predicated on story progression in a vacuum. If someone gets stuck at a certain point in story mode then they can’t get past it. But story mode doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
Alternate methods of rewards from aq, war, eq, sq, bgs, even variants allow you to gain champs and rank those champs up.
So if we wave that magic wand again and remove the roster requirement, we still give everyone the option to grind up champs through all the non-story content to help push them through the content they’re stuck in. But they all do it at the level they’re capable of rather than at a dev determined cutoff.
Maybe that’s tier 3 eq and sq completion, with some lanes done in tier 4. And next month it’s the same with more lanes done in tier 4. But it’s unrestricted progression based on capability.
In effect it’s a natural progression versus the artificial gating.
U do realize that u r asking to make everyone else who worked hard grinding, farming, spending money.. all that effort trivial right?... What's the actual point of progressing if u can slowly ease into their level of rewards?... Content has been nerfed enough to accomodate new players... Its not about faster or slower... Its higher or lower..
A cav player jumping two progressions is wild. I can understand the idea from a very different direction. I have completed Act 7 and have been collecting materials for months, but I do not have enough cats for even a second r4. I cannot get any more r4 mats now, so I have to wait to get the title even though the gem would be game-changing for my account.
A cav player jumping two progressions is wild. I can understand the idea from a very different direction. I have completed Act 7 and have been collecting materials for months, but I do not have enough cats for even a second r4. I cannot get any more r4 mats now, so I have to wait to get the title even though the gem would be game-changing for my account.
Of course the gem would be game changing for your account, any reward meant for Paragon players is going to be game changing for non Paragon accounts. That doesn't mean you deserve it. Spend the time in AQ, Battlegrounds, act content, etc. and you will earn paragon rewards just like every other patient player that earns Paragon every month.
Really not a fan of the fact that the available solo objectives linked to this month's side quest are determined by progression title. I'm a newly Cavalier player and I've been able to explore threat 5 for these first few weeks, which is considered to be content with difficulty aimed towards Paragon players. And instead of being rewarded for being able to keep up with the newly implemented difficulty standard despite the disadvantage of being behind in my roster, I'm not eligible for any of the solo objective rewards past threat 3. It sucks that rewards are locked according to what I'm expected to be able to do instead of what I'm actually capable of doing, and all it does is make the process of getting to those higher progression levels slower for me.
Cav players when they are absolutely terrible at the game and are unable to clear act 6 without crying about how difficult it is, but are denied rewards that are catered towards paragon players who have devoted their time and money to get where they are:
If you are a newly cavalier player, you have absolutely no use for 6* AGs. You do not deserve things that Paragon's have worked their ass for.
P.S - Get good at the game, push to paragon then get those rewards. Please, just please, stop whining for god's sake. People like you are making the community hate cavalier players more than they already do. And trust me, this community would trade cavaliers for a premium hero crystal if we could.
A cav player jumping two progressions is wild. I can understand the idea from a very different direction. I have completed Act 7 and have been collecting materials for months, but I do not have enough cats for even a second r4. I cannot get any more r4 mats now, so I have to wait to get the title even though the gem would be game-changing for my account.
There are more than enough materials in act 8 to get you to Paragon
Comments
You don’t like doing something that is REQUIRED for something unrelated? The objectives ARE related to your progression tier though. That one misconception about being able to do something and be rewarded for it without doing the requirements is the problem.
At many places I’ve worked IRL, I was more than able to do the same work as people in higher up positions and on occasion would do that work when they were unavailable, I did not however get the pay that they would for being in a “managerial” position because I did the work. I could argue until the cows came home that I should, and their argument would be “then you should work your way into management”.
The main difference between that situation and this progression gate is that there are limited vacancies in a job to progress, and there is nothing stopping people from progressing in the game other than their own willingness to do so.
If anyone chooses to not progress, that is on them and they should look at the additional rewards as a motivator to push further.
It’s a requirement completely unrelated to completed any content.
As far as bgs, the rewards for bgs are not exclusive to bgs. I can get them anywhere.
What if you had to be in plat 1 war to be the next title above paragon? Or have an 80% win rate in bgs in order to do side quests?
Then you’re where Kabam landed for tb and paragon
When you learn the difference come back and maybe we can make some progress.
Just because you think they’re arbitrary, doesn’t mean that it is. It just means that you’re wrong and can’t admit it (:
Unrelated to completed any content? You literally get the materials required for completing story content.
Yes you can get BGs rewards by completing other content, same way you can get the generic 6* awakening gem by completing other content in-game. Why are you complaining then?
Once again, those two instances are arbitrary, unlike the requirements to get TB and Paragon. It is your choice to not invest time into story content. Do not complain when you don't get the same rewards as those who have actually put time into it.
So let's wave a magic wand and eliminate them. Now progression is only gated to completing content. Anyone who can complete the content progresses to the next tier, and the next and the next.
Of course, if that's the only thing gating progress, we have to be careful about designing that content. We can't make it too easy, or people will progress too quickly. We have to make it hard enough that we don't have a flood of people destroying the content instantly every time it is released. Content has to have a shelf life longer than the release date. So we need to make sure that even if the top 1% of 1% will blast through everything, the top 10% don't all obliterate the next progression tier requirements, because we simply do not have the ability to make content fast enough to allow for that.
So the content that gates progress has to be hard. Hard enough to slow down even the top 5% of players who possess top 5% rosters. Those players will have to take longer, or maybe spend more, or some combination of both to get past that content. What about the average player? When is he going to get past that content gate? Possibly: never. If it is hard enough to challenge the top 10% or the top 5% of especially the top 1%, it will likely be too difficult for average players. Foreverr. The content that slows the top tier players will completely roadblock the bottom 25%.
We can have a game where the end gamers keep moving on, to Act 7 and then Act 8 and then Act 9, and everyone else just settles for getting stuck at Act 6 indefinitely. But that's a very hostile game to new players. If instead we make the progressional content easy enough that average players can *eventually* get passed it, even if it takes them longer, costs them more, or requires them to build much stronger rosters, then it will be a non-existent progression requirement for higher tier players. To make progression gates that function properly across a wider range of players, we need to make the requirements something that top tier players can do quickly (but not too quickly) and average players can do eventually. And the way the game does this is to make progressional content (specifically, the Acts) with difficulty that is high, but not so high that average players won't be able to overcome it eventually, while also adding a roster development hurdle that is also difficult to achieve initially, but gets easier over time for lower tier players.
That's why we have the dual progression gates. We have content gates and we have roster development gates. Content is designed to be kinda hard but not too hard, so that it is interesting enough for the end game players that first encounter it at launch but is easy enough for average players to eventually overcome, and a roster gate that is specifically chosen to be something even most end game players will not necessarily have on day one, but will quickly be able to chase after, while again, lower players will have an easier time reaching those requirements when the resources become more available over time.
Basically, the roster requirement is there because a game with only a content gate forces the content gates to be too hard for average players once the game progresses far enough along that the difference between top tier players and average tier players becomes too wide to support with just content gates.
We can't gate side quest content by difficulty. Why not? Because that would mean the only side quests we could ever offer players would be maximum difficulty quests. But why must all content have the maximum difficulty? Why can't a side quest be a more moderate difficulty thing that allows players to be engaged, but not pushed to their absolute limits? Because if we say anyone who could do it gets the rewards and we put Paragon-tier rewards in the quest, the difficulty of the quest must be high enough that lower tier players will not, in general, be able to get them (unless they are extremely strong players). We can't make an easy rewarding quest, because an easy rewarding Paragon quest is doable by Cavalier players.
We could just lock the quest itself. If only Paragons can do it, then we can make the quest have hard difficulty in one month and an easy difficulty in another month, so the Paragons are sometimes challenged and sometimes given an easy one as a change of pace, without worrying about whether the difficulty is properly gating players. But that means TBs and Cavs will be just plain locked out of those quests entirely.
The current SQ system is a more moderate system where (at least sometimes) everyone can *attempt* the maps and get *some* of the rewards, but just the top tier stuff is gated to Paragons with the Paragon objectives. That allows TBs and lower to get some of the benefits of being able to run the top tier maps, just not the ones targeting Paragon players.
We can't just let everyone do whatever they can, because if we do that we can never give the players a break: we can't make an easy map, because an easy map allows lower tier players to get excessive rewards. Saying "if I can do it I deserve it" doesn't make sense when the map is deliberately easy. We can (and sometimes do) lock maps to progression tiers. But in many cases like most recent side quests, we don't lock the map we just gate the top Paragon reward. That's a very reasonable compromise.
Of course, the forums being the forums, allowing lower tier players to run the map and get *some* of the rewards is being seen as punishing them by not giving them *all* the rewards, when the alternative would not be that they would get *all* of the rewards, it would be that they would get *none* of the rewards.
I think maybe I haven't made it clear in my last few messages but I'm not pushing for any sort of rewards anymore. I get why that's problematic. Really I just think that the side quest was a bit poorly formatted this month.
My question now though is, your model is predicated on story progression in a vacuum. If someone gets stuck at a certain point in story mode then they can’t get past it. But story mode doesn’t exist in a vacuum.
Alternate methods of rewards from aq, war, eq, sq, bgs, even variants allow you to gain champs and rank those champs up.
So if we wave that magic wand again and remove the roster requirement, we still give everyone the option to grind up champs through all the non-story content to help push them through the content they’re stuck in. But they all do it at the level they’re capable of rather than at a dev determined cutoff.
Maybe that’s tier 3 eq and sq completion, with some lanes done in tier 4. And next month it’s the same with more lanes done in tier 4. But it’s unrestricted progression based on capability.
In effect it’s a natural progression versus the artificial gating.
What's the actual point of progressing if u can slowly ease into their level of rewards?...
Content has been nerfed enough to accomodate new players...
Its not about faster or slower... Its higher or lower..
If you are a newly cavalier player, you have absolutely no use for 6* AGs. You do not deserve things that Paragon's have worked their ass for.
P.S - Get good at the game, push to paragon then get those rewards. Please, just please, stop whining for god's sake. People like you are making the community hate cavalier players more than they already do. And trust me, this community would trade cavaliers for a premium hero crystal if we could.