I very well remember about a comment below a zemo video, stating the special 3 lock getting fixed in the future and the content creator replied "So have fun with it as long it remains." Not contradicting this gonna happen or not being on the table getting changed, but just mention to "ab"use the situation as it lasts.
I so warned my alliance mates several times eversince, to get too comfortable with zemo and his special 3 lock mechanic.
Now fix is here as anticipated.
Kraven has been out for two years with the same mechanic, a silent nerf that butchers the character after two years should not go by without a proper rank down ticket.
Kraven has been out for a year and a half. Not 2 years. It's not a nerf, much less a silent nerf. It was a fix to Root, and they would have to give Tickets for every Champ with Root, if that was the case. Which they don't do for bug fixes.
If you can show me exactly where it describes how the Special Lock on Root is intended to work and describes the changes made to the Special Lock on Root, I will give you one million dollars and then quit the forums and mcoc forever.
Root has been bugged all the way back to EOP. In fact, it's been bugged since its introduction. It's no secret that it's had issues.
That is not nearly the same thing. If there isn't an official description for the special lock on Root, then they could've changed literally anything about it and called that a bug fix. For all we know, this could've been 100% intentional and they just avoided talking about it so they could call it a bug fix down the line. Never before have I seen an ability go entirely unrecognized in game, and there's no way that could be considered okay. If you can't cite an exact description of Kabam's intentions with the ability, you cannot say with absolute certainty that they fixed an ability that wasn't working as intended. You just cannot physically be sure. This is the first time I've ever seen this, and I'd really like for it to be the last.
Now you're just going into conspiracy. "If they didn't tell us we couldn't do it then for all we know we could have done it and they said we couldn't."
I very well remember about a comment below a zemo video, stating the special 3 lock getting fixed in the future and the content creator replied "So have fun with it as long it remains." Not contradicting this gonna happen or not being on the table getting changed, but just mention to "ab"use the situation as it lasts.
I so warned my alliance mates several times eversince, to get too comfortable with zemo and his special 3 lock mechanic.
Now fix is here as anticipated.
Kraven has been out for two years with the same mechanic, a silent nerf that butchers the character after two years should not go by without a proper rank down ticket.
Kraven has been out for a year and a half. Not 2 years. It's not a nerf, much less a silent nerf. It was a fix to Root, and they would have to give Tickets for every Champ with Root, if that was the case. Which they don't do for bug fixes.
If you can show me exactly where it describes how the Special Lock on Root is intended to work and describes the changes made to the Special Lock on Root, I will give you one million dollars and then quit the forums and mcoc forever.
Root has been bugged all the way back to EOP. In fact, it's been bugged since its introduction. It's no secret that it's had issues.
That is not nearly the same thing. If there isn't an official description for the special lock on Root, then they could've changed literally anything about it and called that a bug fix. For all we know, this could've been 100% intentional and they just avoided talking about it so they could call it a bug fix down the line. Never before have I seen an ability go entirely unrecognized in game, and there's no way that could be considered okay. If you can't cite an exact description of Kabam's intentions with the ability, you cannot say with absolute certainty that they fixed an ability that wasn't working as intended. You just cannot physically be sure. This is the first time I've ever seen this, and I'd really like for it to be the last.
Now you're just going into conspiracy. "If they didn't tell us we couldn't do it then for all we know we could have done it and they said we couldn't."
That quote makes literally no sense, I highly believe you got that from ChatGPT. If they didn't tell us how it was supposed to work, then they could've said their intentions were literally anything else and called it a bug fix. Yes, it is a conspiracy. One that I don't believe in, but can be true. That possibility is the issue. Until we know exactly what the intentions were and can compare that to the exact description of the changes made, it is a silent nerf by definition. Like it or not, these are currently the facts of the situation.
I very well remember about a comment below a zemo video, stating the special 3 lock getting fixed in the future and the content creator replied "So have fun with it as long it remains." Not contradicting this gonna happen or not being on the table getting changed, but just mention to "ab"use the situation as it lasts.
I so warned my alliance mates several times eversince, to get too comfortable with zemo and his special 3 lock mechanic.
Now fix is here as anticipated.
Kraven has been out for two years with the same mechanic, a silent nerf that butchers the character after two years should not go by without a proper rank down ticket.
Kraven has been out for a year and a half. Not 2 years. It's not a nerf, much less a silent nerf. It was a fix to Root, and they would have to give Tickets for every Champ with Root, if that was the case. Which they don't do for bug fixes.
If you can show me exactly where it describes how the Special Lock on Root is intended to work and describes the changes made to the Special Lock on Root, I will give you one million dollars and then quit the forums and mcoc forever.
Root has been bugged all the way back to EOP. In fact, it's been bugged since its introduction. It's no secret that it's had issues.
That is not nearly the same thing. If there isn't an official description for the special lock on Root, then they could've changed literally anything about it and called that a bug fix. For all we know, this could've been 100% intentional and they just avoided talking about it so they could call it a bug fix down the line. Never before have I seen an ability go entirely unrecognized in game, and there's no way that could be considered okay. If you can't cite an exact description of Kabam's intentions with the ability, you cannot say with absolute certainty that they fixed an ability that wasn't working as intended. You just cannot physically be sure. This is the first time I've ever seen this, and I'd really like for it to be the last.
Now you're just going into conspiracy. "If they didn't tell us we couldn't do it then for all we know we could have done it and they said we couldn't."
That quote makes literally no sense, I highly believe you got that from ChatGPT. If they didn't tell us how it was supposed to work, then they could've said their intentions were literally anything else and called it a bug fix. Yes, it is a conspiracy. One that I don't believe in, but can be true. That possibility is the issue. Until we know exactly what the intentions were and can compare that to the exact description of the changes made, it is a silent nerf by definition. Like it or not, these are currently the facts of the situation.
The facts are the lack of facts and that makes the conjecture plausible? Huh?
It's not. There's still no description of the original intention, and this isn't a description of how the current ability works. Even more, this says "Baron Zemo" not Kraven, not Root. But it affected both of those things, is that a bug? Is it a silent nerf? We don't know, because there is still literally no description for the ability. Again, these are the facts of the situation. If there is an ability in game for 18 months that has no description or listing, it technically shouldn't exist. And yet, it does and somehow got a bug fix. That is such an obvious problem.
Kabam have already set a pretty clear precedent with their own action, when offering RDTs for fixing a clear bug 2 years after the release of a champion. Yes, Moleman. I was not affected by Moleman situation back then and I'm not affected by Zemo / Kraven situation right now. But regardless if they fixed a bug or adjusted the mechanism to operate as per kit description, their path is clear. They should offer RDTs again.
I very well remember about a comment below a zemo video, stating the special 3 lock getting fixed in the future and the content creator replied "So have fun with it as long it remains." Not contradicting this gonna happen or not being on the table getting changed, but just mention to "ab"use the situation as it lasts.
I so warned my alliance mates several times eversince, to get too comfortable with zemo and his special 3 lock mechanic.
Now fix is here as anticipated.
Kraven has been out for two years with the same mechanic, a silent nerf that butchers the character after two years should not go by without a proper rank down ticket.
Kraven has been out for a year and a half. Not 2 years. It's not a nerf, much less a silent nerf. It was a fix to Root, and they would have to give Tickets for every Champ with Root, if that was the case. Which they don't do for bug fixes.
If you can show me exactly where it describes how the Special Lock on Root is intended to work and describes the changes made to the Special Lock on Root, I will give you one million dollars and then quit the forums and mcoc forever.
Root has been bugged all the way back to EOP. In fact, it's been bugged since its introduction. It's no secret that it's had issues.
That is not nearly the same thing. If there isn't an official description for the special lock on Root, then they could've changed literally anything about it and called that a bug fix. For all we know, this could've been 100% intentional and they just avoided talking about it so they could call it a bug fix down the line. Never before have I seen an ability go entirely unrecognized in game, and there's no way that could be considered okay. If you can't cite an exact description of Kabam's intentions with the ability, you cannot say with absolute certainty that they fixed an ability that wasn't working as intended. You just cannot physically be sure. This is the first time I've ever seen this, and I'd really like for it to be the last.
Now you're just going into conspiracy. "If they didn't tell us we couldn't do it then for all we know we could have done it and they said we couldn't."
Why is it that everything has to be a conspiracy to you? People put up logical arguments and thoughts and you always seem to be tonedeaf to the present concerns. At this rate you are making less sense than what you perpetuate these discussions to be. Even then you have a poor history of judging these kinds of situations with the latest being the silent Gambit relic nerf.
I very well remember about a comment below a zemo video, stating the special 3 lock getting fixed in the future and the content creator replied "So have fun with it as long it remains." Not contradicting this gonna happen or not being on the table getting changed, but just mention to "ab"use the situation as it lasts.
I so warned my alliance mates several times eversince, to get too comfortable with zemo and his special 3 lock mechanic.
Now fix is here as anticipated.
Kraven has been out for two years with the same mechanic, a silent nerf that butchers the character after two years should not go by without a proper rank down ticket.
Kraven has been out for a year and a half. Not 2 years. It's not a nerf, much less a silent nerf. It was a fix to Root, and they would have to give Tickets for every Champ with Root, if that was the case. Which they don't do for bug fixes.
Please come with some facts, don't tell any self made story here, You know Moleman!?
Who knows,they can fix anything saying it was bugged!? In the middle of so many bugs & bigger issues ongoing right now they decide to fix this first or we say create one more issue to talk about for players! It's ok its up to them. Players deserve rank down tickets for this. We need some kind of clarification by team !!!
The point is nowhere in gane does it state how rooted opponents are supposed to behave.even now, they still only throw heavies if they are rooted even if they have specials. So the Sp3 exclusion is not really deductible until kabam tells us
I mean Kabam started the precedent by giving rdts for moleman, if anything since they are the ones starting the precedent, dont they also have the power to overrule the precedent?
I mean Kabam started the precedent by giving rdts for moleman, if anything since they are the ones starting the precedent, dont they also have the power to overrule the precedent?
That’s not how the whole precedent thing works if you want to keep your playerbase happy
I'd like to provide a full breakdown of this issue for anyone who might understably struggle to understand it.
Root is an ability that very few champions have. Since the release of Root, it has been able to be used for something I like to call Root Lock. This Root Lock worked because Root tampered with the Defender AI by making them no longer able to throw special attacks, as you can see from this 2 month old MSD video:
No dedicated Special Lock ability, the defender AI was just programmed in a way that it wouldn't throw special attacks and favored Heavy Attacks instead. The problem with this is that it stopped the AI from throwing a special 3, which allowed players to have an indefinite or unusually long, extended Root Lock. Kabam recently changed this ability by reverting the AI changes and adding a dedicated Special Lock, with the exception of the sp3, as you can see by the grey power bar here:
This makes Root Lock a lot less powerful, and by extension, the champions who have it as a major part of their kit. Normally this wouldn't be such an issue, but none of these Special Lock/Defender AI changes have been disclosed previously, nor are they currently listed as an ability anywhere in game. For clarity, here are screenshots of the Root ability description and all of Kraven's abilities:
No mention of Special Lock, but the Defender specifically is special locked while under the effect of Root and under 3 bars of power. This ability does not apply to the Attacker.
My personal belief of how this all took place is this: The original idea for Root was designed to adjust the AI and prevent them from throwing specials, as it would ruin the effectiveness of Root for attacking champions if the defender could just launch a special and cancel Root. Since it's an AI focused ability and doesn't apply to the Attacker, Kabam likely didn't see the need to define this in game, which I somewhat understand. But now, this ability has been changed to revert the AI changes and replace them with a dedicated Special Lock ability. I assume that they somehow thought that this change wouldn't require any sort of description update, which I disagree with.
This causes a multitude of future implications and current issues. Those AI changes played a huge role in the way the attacking champions functioned. Without disclosing those, a huge chunk of Zemo and Kraven's abilities went entirely unexplained and unmentioned. We've seen things like this before with Mysterio's constant desire to throw an unreasonable amount of Heavy Attacks on defense, but that isn't nearly as impactful. If Kabam is able to add abilities in game without giving players the specifics on them or even letting us know that they exist in the first place, that can cause a lot of major issues with champion design later down the line.
And now, a dedicated Special Lock ability is an active part of the Root mechanic without being mentioned in the Root description. This is a lot less forgiving due to Special Lock being an existing feature with a recognizable name and still not being mentioned as part of this ability. As well, the Defender now being able to throw a Special 3 ruins the Root Lock, making Zemo and Kraven a lot less effective. If any player uses either of them for the first time, this could cause a completely reasonable fight loss, as well as a lot of confusion. Since the Special Lock isn't stated to exist at all in the fight, players will only find out about it after applying root to a Defender for the first time. This also means that they are completely unaware of the fact that this Special Lock will fall off once the Defender reaches 3 bars of power. This wasn't as big of an issue before, since the AI not throwing specials while Rooted was consistent, with no exceptions. Now, that's not the case.
The only transparency we received behind any of this is a post to the Trello board describing the issue as a Baron Zemo champion bug, as you can see below.
This was also supposed to be mentioned in the recent Patch Notes, but wasn't, and would still cause problems if it were mentioned, seeing as this isn't a Baron Zemo specific change.
This issue can be fixed pretty simply.
Send Rank Down Tokens specifically for champions with the Root ability, as well as defining how this Special Lock aspect works in game. This could look like this:
"While Rooted, the Defending champion cannot activate a Special 1 & 2"
Pretty simple, this would be the best way to solve this wildly convoluted issue and allow players to just move on and leave Kraven behind us.
Also, I believe this somehow affected Spot. Since Spot is rooted while Portal Block is active, he is currently inflicted with a Special Lock for the duration of Portal Block, and this isn't mentioned anywhere in his abilities either.
The fact is that you can no longer do the Zemo lock we all used to and as it was allowed for him and Kraven for so long that made people enjoy them and rank them up... if it was unintended they should ve warn us earlier and that is why rank down tickets are needed...such a waste of characters and time spent. Also the nerf for Zemo was ok and that is what we were expevting, not to change an established mechanics
Ir’s insane to me how people advocate for defenders being able to use specials 1 and 2 to break out of root. That would make any root champ the most useless champ in the game.
I'm sorry but what rule is in place that a defender A.I can't do that a human Attacker can do? Relics are the only thing defenders generally can't do that attackers can. If we can do it, theoretically so can A.I defenders. Do you get this mad when you're parried in game modes like arena, AW or BG's?
Great What's the use of root mechanic if the defender can throw specials as they please It's just free unstoppable for the defender Remove it from the game...
It's been on the trello board for awhile that zemos root wasn't supposed to stop the enemy from using their sp3 and the devs also informed me that it was supposed to be on the patch notes that they fixed it.
I guess the Cassie taunt on the patch notes (wasn't actually changed) might have taken the spot of Zemos root being fixed
What about Kraven then? He was released 2 years ago, this affects him more. They should issue tickets for him then, he ahs been butchered by this change.
It literally says in his kit that throwing specials removes root so why would they be special locked? Also, it says opponents and not specifically attacker or defender. It works both ways with all 3 root champions.
They are still special 1 and 2 locked, your argument is useless.
What? lol where does it say that sp1 and sp2 are supposed to be locked? Where?
It doesn't say that, but they are locked. That's the most frustrating part about this issue, there's no way of just laying it all out and saying what the right way to go about it is because Root isn't fully defined. In game or on the forums.
Yes, because it was bugged. You can't have an ability say "activating a special removes root and prevents it from apply" but at the same time be special locked.
Wow it was bugged for whole 2 years but it dawns on them now?? And they do it silently instead of telling everyone that it's a bug?? I can't believe the lengths people go to defend Kabam...
Also this legendary duck up dawns on Kabam after they have made all the profit from selling champions which advertise root mechanic? Are they gonna issue refund because they aren't delivering what they advertised...
Ir’s insane to me how people advocate for defenders being able to use specials 1 and 2 to break out of root. That would make any root champ the most useless champ in the game.
I'm sorry but what rule is in place that a defender A.I can't do that a human Attacker can do? Relics are the only thing defenders generally can't do that attackers can. If we can do it, theoretically so can A.I defenders. Do you get this mad when you're parried in game modes like arena, AW or BG's?
They’re special locked during root, still are in this patch, just not for sp3 for some reason. You have no point.
They shouldn't be special locked period unless the kit specifically calls for it. Kraven should say SP3 removes root. As it stands now, no root mechanic should special lock anyone, attacker or defender.
They can do that but then they will have to offer compensation+ Rank down tickets to everyone who has Zemo or Kraven ranked up? Are they willing to do that??? Stop defending them Everyone knew that root meant no special until now Even their official channel advertised root like that and you are saying it was bugged all this time and they didn't know? They advertised so many champions who use root mechanic but didn't notice it not working as intended until now??
This can't keep happening. Champs with this kind of complexity and hype (i.e Baron Zemo) shouldn't be given abilities that aren't working as intended. It's completely unethical and disrespectful to make this kind of change to champions that are a complete detriment to their playstyle. People are spending money, MONEY KABAM!! How can you make changes like these and not even think about people spending their hard earned money on your game, just for you to do these type of shady things behind the curtains.
Send Rank Down Tokens specifically for champions with the Root ability, as well as defining how this Special Lock aspect works in game. This could look like this:
"While Rooted, the Defending champion cannot activate a Special 1 & 2"
Pretty simple, this would be the best way to solve this wildly convoluted issue and allow players to just move on and leave Kraven behind us.
Also, I believe this somehow affected Spot. Since Spot is rooted while Portal Block is active, he is currently inflicted with a Special Lock for the duration of Portal Block, and this isn't mentioned anywhere in his abilities either.
Good write up, and I was not aware that Spot was affected.
Kabam definitely needs to expand the description in Root, if these changes are entirely intended.
An SP3 special lock during Root is definitely something that shouldn't exist, as it is too much of a cheese (even Doom's Doom cycle has a small level of risk). It is similar to how Shang-Chi's SP1 was changed so players couldn't just stun lock and make everything trivial.
But for Kabam to make a reasonable change but not communicate it either in Patch notes or in Root description, that definitely is reason to complain to Kabam.
For Kraven, this mechanic still required skill to setup and manage. You could easily mess up if you didn't play it well. Playing Kraven well reminded me of playing Magik well. Getting them to the corner isn't always easy. Putting them into the trap with a heavy, or Sp2, isn't always easy. Making sure you have enough power to make it to your Sp2 is key, and if you messed this up you could easily be punished for being greedy and unprepared.
It wasn't practical for every fight. I wouldn't even say it was practical for most fights. I will say it was fun. It felt good to have all the pieces fall into place slice up they prey you had so cleverly trapped.
I guess everyone can go back to using the same handful of clearly overtuned champions, that are too popular to change, in all content and stop deviating from that norm.
Comments
Their action, their precedent, not mine.
Please man make it make sense.
Who knows,they can fix anything saying it was bugged!?
In the middle of so many bugs & bigger issues ongoing right now they decide to fix this first or we say create one more issue to talk about for players! It's ok its up to them.
Players deserve rank down tickets for this. We need some kind of clarification by team !!!
Root is an ability that very few champions have. Since the release of Root, it has been able to be used for something I like to call Root Lock. This Root Lock worked because Root tampered with the Defender AI by making them no longer able to throw special attacks, as you can see from this 2 month old MSD video:
No dedicated Special Lock ability, the defender AI was just programmed in a way that it wouldn't throw special attacks and favored Heavy Attacks instead. The problem with this is that it stopped the AI from throwing a special 3, which allowed players to have an indefinite or unusually long, extended Root Lock. Kabam recently changed this ability by reverting the AI changes and adding a dedicated Special Lock, with the exception of the sp3, as you can see by the grey power bar here:
This makes Root Lock a lot less powerful, and by extension, the champions who have it as a major part of their kit. Normally this wouldn't be such an issue, but none of these Special Lock/Defender AI changes have been disclosed previously, nor are they currently listed as an ability anywhere in game. For clarity, here are screenshots of the Root ability description and all of Kraven's abilities:
No mention of Special Lock, but the Defender specifically is special locked while under the effect of Root and under 3 bars of power. This ability does not apply to the Attacker.
My personal belief of how this all took place is this: The original idea for Root was designed to adjust the AI and prevent them from throwing specials, as it would ruin the effectiveness of Root for attacking champions if the defender could just launch a special and cancel Root. Since it's an AI focused ability and doesn't apply to the Attacker, Kabam likely didn't see the need to define this in game, which I somewhat understand. But now, this ability has been changed to revert the AI changes and replace them with a dedicated Special Lock ability. I assume that they somehow thought that this change wouldn't require any sort of description update, which I disagree with.
This causes a multitude of future implications and current issues. Those AI changes played a huge role in the way the attacking champions functioned. Without disclosing those, a huge chunk of Zemo and Kraven's abilities went entirely unexplained and unmentioned. We've seen things like this before with Mysterio's constant desire to throw an unreasonable amount of Heavy Attacks on defense, but that isn't nearly as impactful. If Kabam is able to add abilities in game without giving players the specifics on them or even letting us know that they exist in the first place, that can cause a lot of major issues with champion design later down the line.
And now, a dedicated Special Lock ability is an active part of the Root mechanic without being mentioned in the Root description. This is a lot less forgiving due to Special Lock being an existing feature with a recognizable name and still not being mentioned as part of this ability. As well, the Defender now being able to throw a Special 3 ruins the Root Lock, making Zemo and Kraven a lot less effective. If any player uses either of them for the first time, this could cause a completely reasonable fight loss, as well as a lot of confusion. Since the Special Lock isn't stated to exist at all in the fight, players will only find out about it after applying root to a Defender for the first time. This also means that they are completely unaware of the fact that this Special Lock will fall off once the Defender reaches 3 bars of power. This wasn't as big of an issue before, since the AI not throwing specials while Rooted was consistent, with no exceptions. Now, that's not the case.
The only transparency we received behind any of this is a post to the Trello board describing the issue as a Baron Zemo champion bug, as you can see below.
This was also supposed to be mentioned in the recent Patch Notes, but wasn't, and would still cause problems if it were mentioned, seeing as this isn't a Baron Zemo specific change.
This issue can be fixed pretty simply.
Send Rank Down Tokens specifically for champions with the Root ability, as well as defining how this Special Lock aspect works in game. This could look like this:
"While Rooted, the Defending champion cannot activate a Special 1 & 2"
Pretty simple, this would be the best way to solve this wildly convoluted issue and allow players to just move on and leave Kraven behind us.
Also, I believe this somehow affected Spot. Since Spot is rooted while Portal Block is active, he is currently inflicted with a Special Lock for the duration of Portal Block, and this isn't mentioned anywhere in his abilities either.
What's the use of root mechanic if the defender can throw specials as they please
It's just free unstoppable for the defender
Remove it from the game...
And they do it silently instead of telling everyone that it's a bug??
I can't believe the lengths people go to defend Kabam...
Also this legendary duck up dawns on Kabam after they have made all the profit from selling champions which advertise root mechanic?
Are they gonna issue refund because they aren't delivering what they advertised...
Are they willing to do that???
Stop defending them
Everyone knew that root meant no special until now
Even their official channel advertised root like that and you are saying it was bugged all this time and they didn't know?
They advertised so many champions who use root mechanic but didn't notice it not working as intended until now??
My take - this is a big enough change that rank down tickets are warranted, especially for kraven.
Kabam definitely needs to expand the description in Root, if these changes are entirely intended.
An SP3 special lock during Root is definitely something that shouldn't exist, as it is too much of a cheese (even Doom's Doom cycle has a small level of risk). It is similar to how Shang-Chi's SP1 was changed so players couldn't just stun lock and make everything trivial.
But for Kabam to make a reasonable change but not communicate it either in Patch notes or in Root description, that definitely is reason to complain to Kabam.
For Kraven, this mechanic still required skill to setup and manage. You could easily mess up if you didn't play it well. Playing Kraven well reminded me of playing Magik well. Getting them to the corner isn't always easy. Putting them into the trap with a heavy, or Sp2, isn't always easy. Making sure you have enough power to make it to your Sp2 is key, and if you messed this up you could easily be punished for being greedy and unprepared.
It wasn't practical for every fight. I wouldn't even say it was practical for most fights. I will say it was fun. It felt good to have all the pieces fall into place slice up they prey you had so cleverly trapped.
I guess everyone can go back to using the same handful of clearly overtuned champions, that are too popular to change, in all content and stop deviating from that norm.