from a time and money perspective the relationship between the devs and the player base is not friendly, it's hostile.
they want us doing more for the same rewards and we want to do less (or at a minimum things stay the same), so the devs are constantly trying to shift things in their favor as much as the player base allows it.
This is so far beyond wrong it isn't even wrong. The devs don't care how much stuff we get, at least not in absolute terms. They care about the ability for rewards to incentivize play.
In absolute terms we get dozens, hundreds, perhaps even thousands of times more rewards than we used to eight years ago. Are we spending thousands of times less? Of course not. The rewards we get only have any value at all relative to the current state of the game. The goal of the game designers is to balance the content of the game and the rewards of the game so the rewards have enough incentivizing power to promote engagement with the game, without being too small to be insufficient and without being too large to saturate the requirements of the game.
There is no "in their favor." If reward levels are too low, that's bad for the game. If the reward levels are too high, that's bad for the game. The self interest of the developers is to maintain the success of the game, because that's how they get to have jobs that pay the rent and put food on the table. Giving us too few rewards is bad for them. Giving us too much rewards is bad for them. There's only the optimal value that best balances the long term health of the game, and any amount higher than or lower than that is worse for them. But there's no direction that is "in their favor" because they don't get to keep what they don't give to us.
i understand, what i'm saying is be careful what we wish for.
the last time the community moaned about arena in early 2021, kabam bumped the 4* milestones from 1.5m to 4.4m (which players still say is too high these days) and halved the amount of points given to 6*. this change added like 100 rounds over 3 days for players who went for all milestones plus the top 5% rewards in the basic and featured.
significantly more work for roughly the same rewards (i know there's extra battlechips from doing more rounds but it's relatively negligible).
I was actually involved with those changes at the time. They were not actually the result of players complaining about the arena. They were actually the result of Kabam wanting to simplify the arenas. And several of us in the CCP worked with Kabam to try to maintain the same amount of units for similar levels of effort. And actually, it isn't all that far away from the previous amounts, when you factor in the higher amounts of total rewards and the fact that from that point moving forward players would have easier times completing at least some of the milestones due to roster inflation.
Believe me, if you saw the spreadsheets flying around back then, and not just from me, this was a very complex point of discussion. There were dozens of grinding scenarios being discussed. And as I mentioned above, there's no way to turn four arenas into three and have everything line up perfectly, and we had to try to come up with a scenario where across a wide range of grinding things were roughly similar without inflating other scenarios significantly beyond what they were already delivering.
It is in part because of my experience with that refactor that I'm not terribly worried about Kabam doing anything drastic with arena units. If they wanted to ax arena units, they wouldn't need our help. The fact that they were willing to bring in arena grinders to work with them on the refactor, not just myself but several other arena grinders, above and beyond normal CCP discussion, and actually spend time redoing and redoing the rework multiple times to address grinding concerns, tells me they understand the sensitivity of the importance of unit grinding to the game economy.
At the end of the day it is their game and their job to manage the game, and they can't spend unlimited amounts of time on something to get it perfect, but I think they did a decent job on that one. The perception of some players was that the arenas were wrecked, but there were plenty of others who crunched the numbers independently and came to the conclusion that the changes were perfectly fine. You can't really ask for more than that, given the wide range of perspectives of players and the natural sensitivity that surrounds all things rewards.
Removing units, making them more scarce for us to earn isn't going to result in more revenue for Kabam. Seems like the simple formula they're trying to implement. I understand the revive nerf, as it was essentially a bug. But there is nothing wrong with Arena grinding, and hasn't been since it's inception 10 years ago. It's the most boring, tedious, time consuming part of the game, but the rewards (although still minuscule) makes the time investment worth it.
No matter what rewards they attempt to replace the milestone arena's with, removing units will kill arena. Even more so if they remove units from battlechips too. They have no idea the negative impact it will have on the game/community if they nerf arena's, strictly just to nerf unit grinding
Removing units, making them more scarce for us to earn isn't going to result in more revenue for Kabam. Seems like the simple formula they're trying to implement. I understand the revive nerf, as it was essentially a bug. But there is nothing wrong with Arena grinding, and hasn't been since it's inception 10 years ago. It's the most boring, tedious, time consuming part of the game, but the rewards (although still minuscule) makes the time investment worth it.
No matter what rewards they attempt to replace the milestone arena's with, removing units will kill arena. Even more so if they remove units from battlechips too. They have no idea the negative impact it will have on the game/community if they nerf arena's, strictly just to nerf unit grinding
The ability for player communities to invent their own bogeymen and then attempt to slay them will never cease to amaze me if I live to be a thousand.
from a time and money perspective the relationship between the devs and the player base is not friendly, it's hostile.
they want us doing more for the same rewards and we want to do less (or at a minimum things stay the same), so the devs are constantly trying to shift things in their favor as much as the player base allows it.
This is so far beyond wrong it isn't even wrong. The devs don't care how much stuff we get, at least not in absolute terms. They care about the ability for rewards to incentivize play.
In absolute terms we get dozens, hundreds, perhaps even thousands of times more rewards than we used to eight years ago. Are we spending thousands of times less? Of course not. The rewards we get only have any value at all relative to the current state of the game. The goal of the game designers is to balance the content of the game and the rewards of the game so the rewards have enough incentivizing power to promote engagement with the game, without being too small to be insufficient and without being too large to saturate the requirements of the game.
There is no "in their favor." If reward levels are too low, that's bad for the game. If the reward levels are too high, that's bad for the game. The self interest of the developers is to maintain the success of the game, because that's how they get to have jobs that pay the rent and put food on the table. Giving us too few rewards is bad for them. Giving us too much rewards is bad for them. There's only the optimal value that best balances the long term health of the game, and any amount higher than or lower than that is worse for them. But there's no direction that is "in their favor" because they don't get to keep what they don't give to us.
i understand, what i'm saying is be careful what we wish for.
the last time the community moaned about arena in early 2021, kabam bumped the 4* milestones from 1.5m to 4.4m (which players still say is too high these days) and halved the amount of points given to 6*. this change added like 100 rounds over 3 days for players who went for all milestones plus the top 5% rewards in the basic and featured.
significantly more work for roughly the same rewards (i know there's extra battlechips from doing more rounds but it's relatively negligible).
I was actually involved with those changes at the time. They were not actually the result of players complaining about the arena. They were actually the result of Kabam wanting to simplify the arenas. And several of us in the CCP worked with Kabam to try to maintain the same amount of units for similar levels of effort. And actually, it isn't all that far away from the previous amounts, when you factor in the higher amounts of total rewards and the fact that from that point moving forward players would have easier times completing at least some of the milestones due to roster inflation.
Believe me, if you saw the spreadsheets flying around back then, and not just from me, this was a very complex point of discussion. There were dozens of grinding scenarios being discussed. And as I mentioned above, there's no way to turn four arenas into three and have everything line up perfectly, and we had to try to come up with a scenario where across a wide range of grinding things were roughly similar without inflating other scenarios significantly beyond what they were already delivering.
It is in part because of my experience with that refactor that I'm not terribly worried about Kabam doing anything drastic with arena units. If they wanted to ax arena units, they wouldn't need our help. The fact that they were willing to bring in arena grinders to work with them on the refactor, not just myself but several other arena grinders, above and beyond normal CCP discussion, and actually spend time redoing and redoing the rework multiple times to address grinding concerns, tells me they understand the sensitivity of the importance of unit grinding to the game economy.
At the end of the day it is their game and their job to manage the game, and they can't spend unlimited amounts of time on something to get it perfect, but I think they did a decent job on that one. The perception of some players was that the arenas were wrecked, but there were plenty of others who crunched the numbers independently and came to the conclusion that the changes were perfectly fine. You can't really ask for more than that, given the wide range of perspectives of players and the natural sensitivity that surrounds all things rewards.
I have lots to be critical about when it comes to Kabam and how they choose to do things, but man, I will always respect them for their efforts when I read stuff like this! Thanks for the insights as always! (Now let's hope they simplify them further and allow us to do the other arena without having to take up 4*s and/or do away with the way matchmaking is now with death matches and stuff)
People are complaining against moving units from arena elsewhere, without realizing that arena is just going to give them Carpal Tunnel over time lol
No matter where they move them, they're going to be a grind to earn. They take time and effort. Some people want everything with a few clicks, and that's not how resource compiling works.
Just move them from arena to eq/side quests/monthly objectives etc
I can make 1000+ Units a week in the Arena. I don't see them moving that amount to SQ/EQ. Plus, the Arenas need that number of people who play, whether for Units or not.
Think he means just the arena milestone units. The ones from crystals would still be in crystals as they're rng.
They all add up to the total sum. To be honest, and I don't mean this to be directed at anyone in particular here, people are getting - for lack of a better word - lazy. They want Units without any added effort, they don't want to run something monotonous, they want an easier and softer way. It's really want versus need, and need always comes before want. Some people don't want to run the Arena, but they need the Units. I'm fortunate to enjoy what I do, but I don't want to have to work to earn a living. Given the choice, I would be free of the need and just work doing what I love. The same goes for bran. I don't like the taste of bran, but since the doctor told me I have high cholesterol, I eat it daily. I know that a game is meant to be enjoyable, and that MCOC is large enough for people to focus on what they like playing, but if I don't run something because I don't like it, that choice comes at the expense of whatever it is I gain from that aspect.
Not reading all of that but theres nothing about someone being lazy just because they dont do arena. They can do every other content in the game except for that and you’d still call them that. The truth is, arena is the most boring, repetitive and depressing game mode. The only reason people do it is because its where all the units are at.
It makes no sense to have one form of game monopolize the others. EQ rewards are seriously outdated. Units arent even in TB or Cav difficulty. Even TB difficulty rewards are obsolete, and the only reason people even do them is to be able to access Paragon gauntlet.
I know this explanation will go in one ear and right out the other so I won’t bother going back and forth with you on this, but I’m sure the majority can agree with the points I’m making
One of the main places to get units and now that's about to change.That seems not good for others players imo. Whether that thing happens sooner or later, I hope KABAM will reconsider about this issue.
People are complaining against moving units from arena elsewhere, without realizing that arena is just going to give them Carpal Tunnel over time lol
No matter where they move them, they're going to be a grind to earn. They take time and effort. Some people want everything with a few clicks, and that's not how resource compiling works.
Just move them from arena to eq/side quests/monthly objectives etc
I can make 1000+ Units a week in the Arena. I don't see them moving that amount to SQ/EQ. Plus, the Arenas need that number of people who play, whether for Units or not.
Think he means just the arena milestone units. The ones from crystals would still be in crystals as they're rng.
They all add up to the total sum. To be honest, and I don't mean this to be directed at anyone in particular here, people are getting - for lack of a better word - lazy. They want Units without any added effort, they don't want to run something monotonous, they want an easier and softer way. It's really want versus need, and need always comes before want. Some people don't want to run the Arena, but they need the Units. I'm fortunate to enjoy what I do, but I don't want to have to work to earn a living. Given the choice, I would be free of the need and just work doing what I love. The same goes for bran. I don't like the taste of bran, but since the doctor told me I have high cholesterol, I eat it daily. I know that a game is meant to be enjoyable, and that MCOC is large enough for people to focus on what they like playing, but if I don't run something because I don't like it, that choice comes at the expense of whatever it is I gain from that aspect.
Not reading all of that but theres nothing about someone being lazy just because they dont do arena. They can do every other content in the game except for that and you’d still call them that. The truth is, arena is the most boring, repetitive and depressing game mode. The only reason people do it is because its where all the units are at.
It makes no sense to have one form of game monopolize the others. EQ rewards are seriously outdated. Units arent even in TB or Cav difficulty. Even TB difficulty rewards are obsolete, and the only reason people even do them is to be able to access Paragon gauntlet.
I know this explanation will go in one ear and right out the other so I won’t bother going back and forth with you on this, but I’m sure the majority can agree with the points I’m making
I didn't say everyone that doesn't do Arena. There are many different feelings on it and individual situations. In general, I feel that way. I'm also going to ignore the "in one eat and right out the other" comment, let's keep it adult. Some find it boring, sure. That's fair. I find a number of things boring that I've had to do over the years to make money. I had a choice. Go to work and be bored, or go without money. What I didn't get to choose was to be paid for sitting at home. That's part of being an adult, doing things I don't like because I have needs. Some don't like the Arena, some do. I happen to like them. The repetitiveness relaxes me. I'm not asking everyone to like the Arena, and I'm not saying everyone who doesn't is lazy. People in general, society in general, have become lazy. Units are a time and effort reward, not a "beat the strongest content" reward. They're a grind. You put enough time and effort in, you amass enough Units. It's actually easily the most accessible and valuable currency in the game, and all it takes is putting small consistent effort in with a number of Arenas to maintain. Not hours and hours of repetition, a little bit each day. Sometimes one day of a lot, whatever schedules permit. My larger point that doesn't really focus on the word lazy, is enough people play and grind the Arena for whatever reason for that to be an efficient system, and I don't necessarily agree with the perspective of changing it because some don't/won't play them.
One of the main places to get units and now that's about to change.That seems not good for others players imo. Whether that thing happens sooner or later, I hope KABAM will reconsider about this issue.
THERE IS NOTHING TO RECONSIDER???? They have said, 3 times now, that they don't have any plans of doing this at the moment, this has also been discussed a lot in this thread. It was Jon saying something for a minute, then saying they most likely won't do it because of potential backlash(case and point) and then they went on with the conversation
People are complaining against moving units from arena elsewhere, without realizing that arena is just going to give them Carpal Tunnel over time lol
No matter where they move them, they're going to be a grind to earn. They take time and effort. Some people want everything with a few clicks, and that's not how resource compiling works.
Just move them from arena to eq/side quests/monthly objectives etc
That would be more problematic. Removing battle chips from the equation a month of arena just in milestones is what? 1000 units? 2000 units?
Ever had one single piece of content give that much?
There’s also the issue of gating. If you’re uncollected say you can still get all those units from arenas. They move them to TB EQ and players have lost all those units.
Comments
Believe me, if you saw the spreadsheets flying around back then, and not just from me, this was a very complex point of discussion. There were dozens of grinding scenarios being discussed. And as I mentioned above, there's no way to turn four arenas into three and have everything line up perfectly, and we had to try to come up with a scenario where across a wide range of grinding things were roughly similar without inflating other scenarios significantly beyond what they were already delivering.
It is in part because of my experience with that refactor that I'm not terribly worried about Kabam doing anything drastic with arena units. If they wanted to ax arena units, they wouldn't need our help. The fact that they were willing to bring in arena grinders to work with them on the refactor, not just myself but several other arena grinders, above and beyond normal CCP discussion, and actually spend time redoing and redoing the rework multiple times to address grinding concerns, tells me they understand the sensitivity of the importance of unit grinding to the game economy.
At the end of the day it is their game and their job to manage the game, and they can't spend unlimited amounts of time on something to get it perfect, but I think they did a decent job on that one. The perception of some players was that the arenas were wrecked, but there were plenty of others who crunched the numbers independently and came to the conclusion that the changes were perfectly fine. You can't really ask for more than that, given the wide range of perspectives of players and the natural sensitivity that surrounds all things rewards.
Removing units, making them more scarce for us to earn isn't going to result in more revenue for Kabam. Seems like the simple formula they're trying to implement. I understand the revive nerf, as it was essentially a bug. But there is nothing wrong with Arena grinding, and hasn't been since it's inception 10 years ago. It's the most boring, tedious, time consuming part of the game, but the rewards (although still minuscule) makes the time investment worth it.
No matter what rewards they attempt to replace the milestone arena's with, removing units will kill arena. Even more so if they remove units from battlechips too. They have no idea the negative impact it will have on the game/community if they nerf arena's, strictly just to nerf unit grinding
(Now let's hope they simplify them further and allow us to do the other arena without having to take up 4*s and/or do away with the way matchmaking is now with death matches and stuff)
It makes no sense to have one form of game monopolize the others. EQ rewards are seriously outdated. Units arent even in TB or Cav difficulty. Even TB difficulty rewards are obsolete, and the only reason people even do them is to be able to access Paragon gauntlet.
I know this explanation will go in one ear and right out the other so I won’t bother going back and forth with you on this, but I’m sure the majority can agree with the points I’m making
Some find it boring, sure. That's fair. I find a number of things boring that I've had to do over the years to make money. I had a choice. Go to work and be bored, or go without money. What I didn't get to choose was to be paid for sitting at home. That's part of being an adult, doing things I don't like because I have needs.
Some don't like the Arena, some do. I happen to like them. The repetitiveness relaxes me. I'm not asking everyone to like the Arena, and I'm not saying everyone who doesn't is lazy. People in general, society in general, have become lazy.
Units are a time and effort reward, not a "beat the strongest content" reward. They're a grind. You put enough time and effort in, you amass enough Units. It's actually easily the most accessible and valuable currency in the game, and all it takes is putting small consistent effort in with a number of Arenas to maintain. Not hours and hours of repetition, a little bit each day. Sometimes one day of a lot, whatever schedules permit.
My larger point that doesn't really focus on the word lazy, is enough people play and grind the Arena for whatever reason for that to be an efficient system, and I don't necessarily agree with the perspective of changing it because some don't/won't play them.
They have said, 3 times now, that they don't have any plans of doing this at the moment, this has also been discussed a lot in this thread. It was Jon saying something for a minute, then saying they most likely won't do it because of potential backlash(case and point) and then they went on with the conversation
Ever had one single piece of content give that much?
There’s also the issue of gating. If you’re uncollected say you can still get all those units from arenas. They move them to TB EQ and players have lost all those units.