Revive farm nerf

altavista

LJF said:

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

Revive spam does stifle Endgame content development.

Your examples - AQ and AW - are not Endgame content and are limits put in place for Competitive modes.

Revive farming only applies to Solo modes. If they capped the number of revives, then that prevents a percentage of Players from being able to complete Solo content. And everyone should theoretically be able to complete all Solo content (once they are of the correct Progression level).

For example, if they capped Necropolis at 50 revives, imagine how it would feel if you used 49 revives to reach the boss.

DanielRand

While this move was understandable from Kabam's point of view, and obviously disappointing for many players, this topic is at an end and there's no reversal coming. With that being said I would ask that Kabam review the change made to EQ resources a few months back. The shift to chests from resources on the map has created a significant shift in available pots and revives. My personal data points are all levels of EQ explored(except last month when I only completed the lowest 2 levels) and I have received a total of 2 revives in that time. Maybe that's not a immense set of data, but it's not a small sample size either. I am resigned to the current system, but a fix here might calm some tension.

PS. If the community has a different experience, please let me know your data, and I will accept I am just the loss leader in RNG.

ReignkingTW

I'm at 164 plus whatever is in unclaimed rewards.

Now to ROL farm!

BringPopcorn

Amir447 said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Where did I say there should be a way to get 100 revives within a week? I'm just saying there should be better avenues for revive gain rather than solo events and apothecary (trash)

So you don't "sit all day in the forums", you don't wanna do daily 22hr events, what do you exactly do in the game?

BringPopcorn

LJF said:

altavista said:

LJF said:

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

Revive spam does stifle Endgame content development.

Your examples - AQ and AW - are not Endgame content and are limits put in place for Competitive modes.

Revive farming only applies to Solo modes. If they capped the number of revives, then that prevents a percentage of Players from being able to complete Solo content. And everyone should theoretically be able to complete all Solo content (once they are of the correct Progression level).

For example, if they capped Necropolis at 50 revives, imagine how it would feel if you used 49 revives to reach the boss.

But using revives to brute-force endgame content is the exact argument underlying the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative. The entire idea is if less-skilled, weaker-rostered players can bypass the difficult challenges of stuff like Necropolis by just reviving their way through, Kabam won't be able to create that content anymore because it does not have a sufficient lifespan to be worthwhile. I'm not suggesting that this is a better way, I'm saying that's what Kabam is claiming as justification for nerfing revive farming.

Everything else you've said misses the point. Just because AQ and AW are not endgame content and involve alliances doesn't mean the mechanics of limiting item use are suddenly unavailable. Kabam can do it, they choose not to. You should be asking why they're not using a tool that, if implemented, would stop the revive spam problem that they claim will kill their game.

Would I be mad if I didn't finish Necropolis under a hypothetical item cap? Of course I would be. But I'd have to recognize that I didn't finish because I wasn't good enough, or because my roster isn't strong enough (or both). That's the entire idea behind endgame content; not everyone is capable of completing it. Know what trivializes endgame content to make it boring and not a challenge? Tossing revives until it's finished. No skill, no ranking up champs. Just money.

That's one of the narratives...
The other narrative that makes more sense is that F2P players should be spending units to do content instead of hoarding for 6 months....

Kabam Miike

LJF said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.

Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.

When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.

You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.

You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.

Longshot_33

LJF said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

This is so true. If they really wanted to push content that required skill and make dying matter as they claim…they would have quests that you had to clear in 10 revives or less. Or a final path of the necropolis that has a 20 revive limit. But since it’s truly all just about money that’s not the case.

Before this there were 3 types of players.
Those that could skill their way through.
Those that could pay their way through.
Those that would grind their way through.

All they’ve done is remove the grinders aka peasants to Kabam.

BringPopcorn

Longshot_33 said:

LJF said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

This is so true. If they really wanted to push content that required skill and make dying matter as they claim…they would have quests that you had to clear in 10 revives or less. Or a final path of the necropolis that has a 20 revive limit. But since it’s truly all just about money that’s not the case.

Before this there were 3 types of players.
Those that could skill their way through.
Those that could pay their way through.
Those that would grind their way through.

All they’ve done is remove the grinders aka peasants to Kabam.

You need to review your definition of "peasant", its usually referred as someone exploited for their work. Not sure how that applies, when its an F2P game.

Wicket329

Longshot_33 said:

LJF said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

This is so true. If they really wanted to push content that required skill and make dying matter as they claim…they would have quests that you had to clear in 10 revives or less. Or a final path of the necropolis that has a 20 revive limit. But since it’s truly all just about money that’s not the case.

Before this there were 3 types of players.
Those that could skill their way through.
Those that could pay their way through.
Those that would grind their way through.

All they’ve done is remove the grinders aka peasants to Kabam.

You can absolutely still grind, you just grind arena for units now rather than autoplaying early act content for revives. All this is doing is changing the form, not necessarily the result. It’s up to players as to if they are still willing to do it.

Bugmat78

altavista said:

LJF said:

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

Revive spam does stifle Endgame content development.

Your examples - AQ and AW - are not Endgame content and are limits put in place for Competitive modes.

Revive farming only applies to Solo modes. If they capped the number of revives, then that prevents a percentage of Players from being able to complete Solo content. And everyone should theoretically be able to complete all Solo content (once they are of the correct Progression level).

For example, if they capped Necropolis at 50 revives, imagine how it would feel if you used 49 revives to reach the boss.

That wasn't his point, though he didn't write it in the best way. His point is that there is no content that cannot be done via revive spamming. Revive spamming does NOT trivialise content, else Kabam would cap revive usage in that content.

What they did have an issue with is spamming with free revives because then we wouldn't be using units. As long as you have units (whether purchased or grinded) you can spam any solo Story, Event or Special Quest content in the game with as many revives as you want/can afford.

Bocksarox

Kabam Miike said:

LJF said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.

Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.

When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.

You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.

You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.

Based on this, I feel like a better compromise would have been to keep the revive farm and nerf the availability of energy refills. Players cannot farm without energy, and many of us have energy refills in overflow with almost nothing to use them on without a farm. So, in line with the intention of forcing players to make a choice with their units, wouldn't it make more sense for players to be able to spend their units on energy refills and keep farming? Why can't we save units, reinvest those units into energy, and manually pluck the revives off of paths? Greater effort for a greater reward. The revives still expire, therefore they would need to be used. This creates the cycle of acquire units, buy refills, farm revives, complete content, and repeat.

An energy refill is 30 units and a 40% revive is 40 units. This is not a significant difference. However, with old revive farming methods, we could take a 30 unit energy refill and turn it into two or three 20% revives. The balance here is that there was some amount of time required by the player to be involved in the game (even if it's just setting up a team to auto fight) plus good ol' RNG. Some farms were more efficient and required less interactions, but that gives players incentive to rank champs specifically for farming purposes. We would also be choosing quantity (multiple 20% revives) over quality (one 40% revive). Additionally, people that buy units would be able to farm quicker, if needed.

I think Kabam should remove a majority of energy refills from rewards and free crystals and replace them with a high tier quest potion instead. Once that is done, I think revive farming should be restored to it's former availability. In this scenario, Kabam wins because they still get players to spend their units on difficult content via energy refills and players win because the ability to accumulate large amounts of revives for difficult content is still available. In my opinion, this is a much better compromise and it doesn't give the impression of a cash grab by Kabam.

The Apothecary is not a good enough compromise as revives will start to expire before the average player can accumulate enough to run a path in a piece of content like Necropolis. I believe this change to revive farming will end up frustrating many players as it will take most players months to acquire the necessary resources. Once they hit that wall, players will lose interest in the game and move on to something else.

I hope this suggestion will be considered!

GalactikDonut

Bocksarox said:

The Apothecary is not a good enough compromise as revives will start to expire before the average player can accumulate enough to run a path in a piece of content like Necropolis. I believe this change to revive farming will end up frustrating many players as it will take most players months to acquire the necessary resources. Once they hit that wall, players will lose interest in the game and move on to something else.

i think you’re forgetting that necropolis is not meant to be completed by the average summoner. it’s the newest piece of everest content meant for players with a lot of skill and the appropriate roster. if players need more than the 68ish they can get a month for free for a path of necro then they can spend units they’ve accumulated to get the extra revives necessary. completing necro in less than 68 is easily doable if you’re properly prepared for it and play well

BringPopcorn

Bocksarox said:

Kabam Miike said:

LJF said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.

Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.

When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.

You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.

You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.

Based on this, I feel like a better compromise would have been to keep the revive farm and nerf the availability of energy refills. Players cannot farm without energy, and many of us have energy refills in overflow with almost nothing to use them on without a farm. So, in line with the intention of forcing players to make a choice with their units, wouldn't it make more sense for players to be able to spend their units on energy refills and keep farming? Why can't we save units, reinvest those units into energy, and manually pluck the revives off of paths? Greater effort for a greater reward. The revives still expire, therefore they would need to be used. This creates the cycle of acquire units, buy refills, farm revives, complete content, and repeat.

An energy refill is 30 units and a 40% revive is 40 units. This is not a significant difference. However, with old revive farming methods, we could take a 30 unit energy refill and turn it into two or three 20% revives. The balance here is that there was some amount of time required by the player to be involved in the game (even if it's just setting up a team to auto fight) plus good ol' RNG. Some farms were more efficient and required less interactions, but that gives players incentive to rank champs specifically for farming purposes. We would also be choosing quantity (multiple 20% revives) over quality (one 40% revive). Additionally, people that buy units would be able to farm quicker, if needed.

I think Kabam should remove a majority of energy refills from rewards and free crystals and replace them with a high tier quest potion instead. Once that is done, I think revive farming should be restored to it's former availability. In this scenario, Kabam wins because they still get players to spend their units on difficult content via energy refills and players win because the ability to accumulate large amounts of revives for difficult content is still available. In my opinion, this is a much better compromise and it doesn't give the impression of a cash grab by Kabam.

The Apothecary is not a good enough compromise as revives will start to expire before the average player can accumulate enough to run a path in a piece of content like Necropolis. I believe this change to revive farming will end up frustrating many players as it will take most players months to acquire the necessary resources. Once they hit that wall, players will lose interest in the game and move on to something else.

I hope this suggestion will be considered!

They don't want people beefing up their accounts for free by farming revives and saving every unit possible for deals. They are making it a choice, do content or save.
Personally as a spender (not a whale) I am perfrctly fine with this change. The deals on CM and Banquet were not great, which made me not spend that much and probably F2P grinders who saved managed to close in the gap to my account
I am really sorry if F2Ps will disagree, but personally as a spender, I am not fine with F2Ps getting everything they want.

GroundedWisdom

Bugmat78 said:

altavista said:

LJF said:

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

Revive spam does stifle Endgame content development.

Your examples - AQ and AW - are not Endgame content and are limits put in place for Competitive modes.

Revive farming only applies to Solo modes. If they capped the number of revives, then that prevents a percentage of Players from being able to complete Solo content. And everyone should theoretically be able to complete all Solo content (once they are of the correct Progression level).

For example, if they capped Necropolis at 50 revives, imagine how it would feel if you used 49 revives to reach the boss.

That wasn't his point, though he didn't write it in the best way. His point is that there is no content that cannot be done via revive spamming. Revive spamming does NOT trivialise content, else Kabam would cap revive usage in that content.

What they did have an issue with is spamming with free revives because then we wouldn't be using units. As long as you have units (whether purchased or grinded) you can spam any solo Story, Event or Special Quest content in the game with as many revives as you want/can afford.

Units, whether bought or grinded for, are a limited resource. You're limited to the amount you can spend, or the amount of time and effort you invest into amassing them. That means planning, and it also means engaging in a decision-making process.
Revive farming just involves dipping your bucket into the well enough times, and that well never runs dry.
The same can be said for farming Units, but the amount of time and effort is greater than farming. That's why it's a limiting factor. Otherwise people wouldn't even be arguing to keep it. No matter how you look at it, it's an easy street. That most definitely trivializes content.

Bocksarox

GalactikDonut said:

Bocksarox said:

The Apothecary is not a good enough compromise as revives will start to expire before the average player can accumulate enough to run a path in a piece of content like Necropolis. I believe this change to revive farming will end up frustrating many players as it will take most players months to acquire the necessary resources. Once they hit that wall, players will lose interest in the game and move on to something else.

i think you’re forgetting that necropolis is not meant to be completed by the average summoner. it’s the newest piece of everest content meant for players with a lot of skill and the appropriate roster. if players need more than the 68ish they can get a month for free for a path of necro then they can spend units they’ve accumulated to get the extra revives necessary. completing necro in less than 68 is easily doable if you’re properly prepared for it and play well

Getting 68ish revives in a month is not easily doable. Also, my solution does not make Necropolis available to the average summoner without a great deal of time and effort on their part. The amount of time and effort required decreases with one's skill level, and I feel like that is a fair balance.

GalactikDonut

Bocksarox said:

Getting 68ish revives in a month is not easily doable. Also, my solution does not make Necropolis available to the average summoner without a great deal of time and effort on their part. The amount of time and effort required decreases with one's skill level, and I feel like that is a fair balance.

it is so very easily doable. literally just logging in everyday and doing apothecary and the 22 hour solo event. maximum of 20 minutes a day

Bocksarox

BringPopcorn said:

Bocksarox said:

Kabam Miike said:

LJF said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.

Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.

When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.

You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.

You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.

Based on this, I feel like a better compromise would have been to keep the revive farm and nerf the availability of energy refills. Players cannot farm without energy, and many of us have energy refills in overflow with almost nothing to use them on without a farm. So, in line with the intention of forcing players to make a choice with their units, wouldn't it make more sense for players to be able to spend their units on energy refills and keep farming? Why can't we save units, reinvest those units into energy, and manually pluck the revives off of paths? Greater effort for a greater reward. The revives still expire, therefore they would need to be used. This creates the cycle of acquire units, buy refills, farm revives, complete content, and repeat.

An energy refill is 30 units and a 40% revive is 40 units. This is not a significant difference. However, with old revive farming methods, we could take a 30 unit energy refill and turn it into two or three 20% revives. The balance here is that there was some amount of time required by the player to be involved in the game (even if it's just setting up a team to auto fight) plus good ol' RNG. Some farms were more efficient and required less interactions, but that gives players incentive to rank champs specifically for farming purposes. We would also be choosing quantity (multiple 20% revives) over quality (one 40% revive). Additionally, people that buy units would be able to farm quicker, if needed.

I think Kabam should remove a majority of energy refills from rewards and free crystals and replace them with a high tier quest potion instead. Once that is done, I think revive farming should be restored to it's former availability. In this scenario, Kabam wins because they still get players to spend their units on difficult content via energy refills and players win because the ability to accumulate large amounts of revives for difficult content is still available. In my opinion, this is a much better compromise and it doesn't give the impression of a cash grab by Kabam.

The Apothecary is not a good enough compromise as revives will start to expire before the average player can accumulate enough to run a path in a piece of content like Necropolis. I believe this change to revive farming will end up frustrating many players as it will take most players months to acquire the necessary resources. Once they hit that wall, players will lose interest in the game and move on to something else.

I hope this suggestion will be considered!

They don't want people beefing up their accounts for free by farming revives and saving every unit possible for deals. They are making it a choice, do content or save.
Personally as a spender (not a whale) I am perfrctly fine with this change. The deals on CM and Banquet were not great, which made me not spend that much and probably F2P grinders who saved managed to close in the gap to my account
I am really sorry if F2Ps will disagree, but personally as a spender, I am not fine with F2Ps getting everything they want.

You didn't read or comprehend my post if you think my suggestion would be "for free". I'm suggesting reverting farming to how it was and nerfing the availability of energy refills. Then, a summoner can SPEND their units on energy refills if they want to farm. This means they WOULD NOT be able to save every unit possible on deals.

BringPopcorn

Bocksarox said:

BringPopcorn said:

Bocksarox said:

Kabam Miike said:

LJF said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.

Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.

When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.

You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.

You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.

Based on this, I feel like a better compromise would have been to keep the revive farm and nerf the availability of energy refills. Players cannot farm without energy, and many of us have energy refills in overflow with almost nothing to use them on without a farm. So, in line with the intention of forcing players to make a choice with their units, wouldn't it make more sense for players to be able to spend their units on energy refills and keep farming? Why can't we save units, reinvest those units into energy, and manually pluck the revives off of paths? Greater effort for a greater reward. The revives still expire, therefore they would need to be used. This creates the cycle of acquire units, buy refills, farm revives, complete content, and repeat.

An energy refill is 30 units and a 40% revive is 40 units. This is not a significant difference. However, with old revive farming methods, we could take a 30 unit energy refill and turn it into two or three 20% revives. The balance here is that there was some amount of time required by the player to be involved in the game (even if it's just setting up a team to auto fight) plus good ol' RNG. Some farms were more efficient and required less interactions, but that gives players incentive to rank champs specifically for farming purposes. We would also be choosing quantity (multiple 20% revives) over quality (one 40% revive). Additionally, people that buy units would be able to farm quicker, if needed.

I think Kabam should remove a majority of energy refills from rewards and free crystals and replace them with a high tier quest potion instead. Once that is done, I think revive farming should be restored to it's former availability. In this scenario, Kabam wins because they still get players to spend their units on difficult content via energy refills and players win because the ability to accumulate large amounts of revives for difficult content is still available. In my opinion, this is a much better compromise and it doesn't give the impression of a cash grab by Kabam.

The Apothecary is not a good enough compromise as revives will start to expire before the average player can accumulate enough to run a path in a piece of content like Necropolis. I believe this change to revive farming will end up frustrating many players as it will take most players months to acquire the necessary resources. Once they hit that wall, players will lose interest in the game and move on to something else.

I hope this suggestion will be considered!

They don't want people beefing up their accounts for free by farming revives and saving every unit possible for deals. They are making it a choice, do content or save.
Personally as a spender (not a whale) I am perfrctly fine with this change. The deals on CM and Banquet were not great, which made me not spend that much and probably F2P grinders who saved managed to close in the gap to my account
I am really sorry if F2Ps will disagree, but personally as a spender, I am not fine with F2Ps getting everything they want.

You didn't read or comprehend my post if you think my suggestion would be "for free". I'm suggesting reverting farming to how it was and nerfing the availability of energy refills. Then, a summoner can SPEND their units on energy refills if they want to farm. This means they WOULD NOT be able to save every unit possible on deals.

So.. spend on energy refills or.on revives... What is the difference? On the long run?
And I did comprehend enough to understand you are looking for a compromise with nothing to negotiate.
They don't want you to have that many revives for basically free, and then have 6-8k units or whatever it is for free to spend...
Also if they stop giving energy, I would probably stop playing BGs...

GalactikDonut

Bocksarox said:

You didn't read or comprehend my post if you think my suggestion would be "for free". I'm suggesting reverting farming to how it was and nerfing the availability of energy refills. Then, a summoner can SPEND their units on energy refills if they want to farm. This means they WOULD NOT be able to save every unit possible on deals.

so if i’m getting this right, you want to remove full energy refill availability so that you can instead have revive farming, where you’ll spend 30 units and 5 minutes to get a revive for a 10 unit discount basically. instead of just using the full energy refills we already get a ton of and using them to auto play the lower level event quests for a bunch of free units you can spend on revives?

Bocksarox

GalactikDonut said:

Bocksarox said:

Getting 68ish revives in a month is not easily doable. Also, my solution does not make Necropolis available to the average summoner without a great deal of time and effort on their part. The amount of time and effort required decreases with one's skill level, and I feel like that is a fair balance.

it is so very easily doable. literally just logging in everyday and doing apothecary and the 22 hour solo event. maximum of 20 minutes a day

20 minutes a day in addition to everything else we need to do in the game every day.

GroundedWisdom

Bocksarox said:

GalactikDonut said:

Bocksarox said:

Getting 68ish revives in a month is not easily doable. Also, my solution does not make Necropolis available to the average summoner without a great deal of time and effort on their part. The amount of time and effort required decreases with one's skill level, and I feel like that is a fair balance.

it is so very easily doable. literally just logging in everyday and doing apothecary and the 22 hour solo event. maximum of 20 minutes a day

20 minutes a day in addition to everything else we need to do in the game every day.

What exactly do we need to do everyday?

Tempest_024

Kabam Miike said:

LJF said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.

Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.

When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.

You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.

You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.

Can I ask this then? Is it intended for Necropolis to cost units? If the inventory on revives is what it is, and there are paths that arguably take more revives than inventory allows, then by your reasoning we should be using units in Necropolis. I think we can all agree that is where the friction from the player base comes from. The choice to use units on revives for Necropolis(just necro for this argument) isn't a choice, if the content demands more revives than inventory allows to hold.

BringPopcorn

GroundedWisdom said:

Bocksarox said:

GalactikDonut said:

Bocksarox said:

Getting 68ish revives in a month is not easily doable. Also, my solution does not make Necropolis available to the average summoner without a great deal of time and effort on their part. The amount of time and effort required decreases with one's skill level, and I feel like that is a fair balance.

it is so very easily doable. literally just logging in everyday and doing apothecary and the 22 hour solo event. maximum of 20 minutes a day

20 minutes a day in addition to everything else we need to do in the game every day.

What exactly do we need to do everyday?

Grind arena to farm for units 🤣

Bocksarox

BringPopcorn said:

Bocksarox said:

BringPopcorn said:

Bocksarox said:

Kabam Miike said:

LJF said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.

Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.

When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.

You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.

You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.

Based on this, I feel like a better compromise would have been to keep the revive farm and nerf the availability of energy refills. Players cannot farm without energy, and many of us have energy refills in overflow with almost nothing to use them on without a farm. So, in line with the intention of forcing players to make a choice with their units, wouldn't it make more sense for players to be able to spend their units on energy refills and keep farming? Why can't we save units, reinvest those units into energy, and manually pluck the revives off of paths? Greater effort for a greater reward. The revives still expire, therefore they would need to be used. This creates the cycle of acquire units, buy refills, farm revives, complete content, and repeat.

An energy refill is 30 units and a 40% revive is 40 units. This is not a significant difference. However, with old revive farming methods, we could take a 30 unit energy refill and turn it into two or three 20% revives. The balance here is that there was some amount of time required by the player to be involved in the game (even if it's just setting up a team to auto fight) plus good ol' RNG. Some farms were more efficient and required less interactions, but that gives players incentive to rank champs specifically for farming purposes. We would also be choosing quantity (multiple 20% revives) over quality (one 40% revive). Additionally, people that buy units would be able to farm quicker, if needed.

I think Kabam should remove a majority of energy refills from rewards and free crystals and replace them with a high tier quest potion instead. Once that is done, I think revive farming should be restored to it's former availability. In this scenario, Kabam wins because they still get players to spend their units on difficult content via energy refills and players win because the ability to accumulate large amounts of revives for difficult content is still available. In my opinion, this is a much better compromise and it doesn't give the impression of a cash grab by Kabam.

The Apothecary is not a good enough compromise as revives will start to expire before the average player can accumulate enough to run a path in a piece of content like Necropolis. I believe this change to revive farming will end up frustrating many players as it will take most players months to acquire the necessary resources. Once they hit that wall, players will lose interest in the game and move on to something else.

I hope this suggestion will be considered!

They don't want people beefing up their accounts for free by farming revives and saving every unit possible for deals. They are making it a choice, do content or save.
Personally as a spender (not a whale) I am perfrctly fine with this change. The deals on CM and Banquet were not great, which made me not spend that much and probably F2P grinders who saved managed to close in the gap to my account
I am really sorry if F2Ps will disagree, but personally as a spender, I am not fine with F2Ps getting everything they want.

You didn't read or comprehend my post if you think my suggestion would be "for free". I'm suggesting reverting farming to how it was and nerfing the availability of energy refills. Then, a summoner can SPEND their units on energy refills if they want to farm. This means they WOULD NOT be able to save every unit possible on deals.

So.. spend on energy refills or.on revives... What is the difference? On the long run?
And I did comprehend enough to understand you are looking for a compromise with nothing to negotiate.
They don't want you to have that many revives for basically free, and then have 6-8k units or whatever it is for free to spend...
Also if they stop giving energy, I would probably stop playing BGs...

The difference is that through more effort, I would be able to accumulate more revives. I'd get more bang for my buck. I could spend 300 units, take 10 refills, run through some lower difficulty quests, and probably come out with 15-20 revives as opposed to the 7-8 I could buy with the same amount of units.

BringPopcorn

Bocksarox said:

BringPopcorn said:

Bocksarox said:

BringPopcorn said:

Bocksarox said:

Kabam Miike said:

LJF said:

Pikolu said:

Amir447 said:

but there should be a half decent replacement

No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.

Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.

I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.

Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.

When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.

You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.

You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.

Based on this, I feel like a better compromise would have been to keep the revive farm and nerf the availability of energy refills. Players cannot farm without energy, and many of us have energy refills in overflow with almost nothing to use them on without a farm. So, in line with the intention of forcing players to make a choice with their units, wouldn't it make more sense for players to be able to spend their units on energy refills and keep farming? Why can't we save units, reinvest those units into energy, and manually pluck the revives off of paths? Greater effort for a greater reward. The revives still expire, therefore they would need to be used. This creates the cycle of acquire units, buy refills, farm revives, complete content, and repeat.

An energy refill is 30 units and a 40% revive is 40 units. This is not a significant difference. However, with old revive farming methods, we could take a 30 unit energy refill and turn it into two or three 20% revives. The balance here is that there was some amount of time required by the player to be involved in the game (even if it's just setting up a team to auto fight) plus good ol' RNG. Some farms were more efficient and required less interactions, but that gives players incentive to rank champs specifically for farming purposes. We would also be choosing quantity (multiple 20% revives) over quality (one 40% revive). Additionally, people that buy units would be able to farm quicker, if needed.

I think Kabam should remove a majority of energy refills from rewards and free crystals and replace them with a high tier quest potion instead. Once that is done, I think revive farming should be restored to it's former availability. In this scenario, Kabam wins because they still get players to spend their units on difficult content via energy refills and players win because the ability to accumulate large amounts of revives for difficult content is still available. In my opinion, this is a much better compromise and it doesn't give the impression of a cash grab by Kabam.

The Apothecary is not a good enough compromise as revives will start to expire before the average player can accumulate enough to run a path in a piece of content like Necropolis. I believe this change to revive farming will end up frustrating many players as it will take most players months to acquire the necessary resources. Once they hit that wall, players will lose interest in the game and move on to something else.

I hope this suggestion will be considered!

They don't want people beefing up their accounts for free by farming revives and saving every unit possible for deals. They are making it a choice, do content or save.
Personally as a spender (not a whale) I am perfrctly fine with this change. The deals on CM and Banquet were not great, which made me not spend that much and probably F2P grinders who saved managed to close in the gap to my account
I am really sorry if F2Ps will disagree, but personally as a spender, I am not fine with F2Ps getting everything they want.

You didn't read or comprehend my post if you think my suggestion would be "for free". I'm suggesting reverting farming to how it was and nerfing the availability of energy refills. Then, a summoner can SPEND their units on energy refills if they want to farm. This means they WOULD NOT be able to save every unit possible on deals.

So.. spend on energy refills or.on revives... What is the difference? On the long run?
And I did comprehend enough to understand you are looking for a compromise with nothing to negotiate.
They don't want you to have that many revives for basically free, and then have 6-8k units or whatever it is for free to spend...
Also if they stop giving energy, I would probably stop playing BGs...

The difference is that through more effort, I would be able to accumulate more revives. I'd get more bang for my buck. I could spend 300 units, take 10 refills, run through some lower difficulty quests, and probably come out with 15-20 revives as opposed to the 7-8 I could buy with the same amount of units.

Your explanation of what you can do is exactly why they are making the changes 🤣
Its a PRO PROFIT company!!

Bocksarox

300 units isn't "basically free". It's about $10, meaning it would cost me about $30 to do each path of Necropolis. $180 for 6 paths.

Or I could grind for those units if I didn't want to spend.

GalactikDonut

Bocksarox said:

20 minutes a day in addition to everything else we need to do in the game every day.

ah got it. 20 minutes a day is too much to ask, but grinding revives on top of “everything else you have to do everyday” is fine

BringPopcorn

Bocksarox said:

300 units isn't "basically free". It's about $10, meaning it would cost me about $30 to do each path of Necropolis. $180 for 6 paths.

Or I could grind for those units if I didn't want to spend.

You don't wanna spend, then you make your peace and enjoy what they give you at the fullest you can.
Like it or not, if you are F2P you don't really bring anything to the table, and got 0 power to negotiate a compromise.