No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.
Where did I say there should be a way to get 100 revives within a week? I'm just saying there should be better avenues for revive gain rather than solo events and apothecary (trash)
So you don't "sit all day in the forums", you don't wanna do daily 22hr events, what do you exactly do in the game?
I have this crazy thing called a life, it's a 24 hour live event that runs 7 days a week!
Then you shouldn't be so worried about the game... 22hr events or 24hs if u wanna call em that don't take that long to complete. Why do people use the "I have a life" excuse as if other players didn't.
To make themselves seem superior
He is superior for he has a life and the rest of us are dead, no revives available 😞
I'm deathless...You know what happens to corn after you eat it...
No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.
Where did I say there should be a way to get 100 revives within a week? I'm just saying there should be better avenues for revive gain rather than solo events and apothecary (trash)
So you don't "sit all day in the forums", you don't wanna do daily 22hr events, what do you exactly do in the game?
I have this crazy thing called a life, it's a 24 hour live event that runs 7 days a week!
Then you shouldn't be so worried about the game... 22hr events or 24hs if u wanna call em that don't take that long to complete. Why do people use the "I have a life" excuse as if other players didn't.
To make themselves seem superior
He is superior for he has a life and the rest of us are dead, no revives available 😞
I'm deathless...You know what happens to corn after you eat it...
No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.
Where did I say there should be a way to get 100 revives within a week? I'm just saying there should be better avenues for revive gain rather than solo events and apothecary (trash)
So you don't "sit all day in the forums", you don't wanna do daily 22hr events, what do you exactly do in the game?
I have this crazy thing called a life, it's a 24 hour live event that runs 7 days a week!
Then you shouldn't be so worried about the game... 22hr events or 24hs if u wanna call em that don't take that long to complete. Why do people use the "I have a life" excuse as if other players didn't.
@Kabam Miike can you please review and approve my comment? It disappeared and said would require moderator approval. Or if there's an issue, can you let me know so I can revise it?
You're never seeing that bad boy again. I doubt it even goes anywhere
I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.
Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.
When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.
You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.
You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.
I appreciate the response on the subject. This is the first time I have seen you (or someone from Kabam) say that revive use is not the issue, but the revive acquisition method is the existential threat to endgame content. This may be why there's a disconnect between our views on this, so I'd like to understand it more (and hopefully you can understand why I believe what I do).
Notice the language used in this announcement. "Spam revives." "Trivializes difficult content." And tellingly, no mention of units, at all. There is nothing here about how revives are gathered, only how they are used. By my read, your concern with revive farming is that players gain too many revives to use, which you state is "effectively a loophole for these challenging pieces of content." So you'll understand why I think your justification for nerfing revive farming is that too many revives are being used. What I am confused about now, though, is that you say "You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world," which appears to contradict the original announcement. Can you explain what you mean by this?
Second, I am not sure I understand why units are a necessary intermediary that players must use. I think we agree that, whether a person is grinding for units or revives, they both represent the same thing: time spent playing the game. Why do you believe that the time spent grinding for units is not equal to the time spent grinding for revives. I agree that units are more powerful. But if the real reason behind your position is giving players a choice, why don't you let players choose whether to spend their time grinding for units or grinding for revives? In theory, if I'm grinding for revives, I can't at the same time be grinding for units to spend on deals. The tradeoff remains the same, I'm just choosing a different path to get there. So if both grinds lead to the same end result of having enough items to complete endgame content, why isn't what's good for the goose good for the gander?
I've already typed more than I intended, I don't like excessively long posts because they're difficult to respond to. So those are my thoughts, hope they shed light on my position for you.
The crux of this is not about giving players a choice about where they spend their time, it's about where they spend their units. They are NOT the same thing, and unless we change to a system where you can only choose Units OR Revives as your reward, you know that players will spend their time doing both.
Units are also a closely controlled system that allows us to ensure that there's only X amount available by grinding every day/week/month/year. This has not prevented F2P players from finding great success in the game, and has been the case since the beginning of the game, including most of the game's lifetime that occurred before farming was possible.
Second, I am not sure I understand why units are a necessary intermediary that players must use. I think we agree that, whether a person is grinding for units or revives, they both represent the same thing: time spent playing the game.
We don't agree. The unit grinding economy is very strictly regulated and managed. You can't autofight in the arena, for example. You can in normal content, including Act content. The revive farms were not special revive maps that could be engineered for farming. They were the normal content in the game that happened to contain excessive amounts of revives. That content was subject to normal content management rules, not grindable content like the arena.
We could try to engineer all content that contains revives to just coincidentally happen to work out so that the time spent grinding them happened to coincide with the amount of time it takes to earn the equivalent amount of units to buy the revives, with not only the same amount of time but also the same amount of actual effort. But that would be pointless. That's a lot of effort to put players back to where they are now. In fact, when you can earn a certain amount of revives or a certain amount of units equal to the cost of those revives with identical amounts of effort and time, it is *always* better to go for the units, because the units are intrinsically more useful, as you can either buy the revives or save them for something else. Revives do not have that flexibility.
The problem with this suggestion is that it penalizes the players that want to use those energy refills for other purposes. We'd be taking energy refills away from players who use them for all kinds of reasons, and replacing them with potions that don't replace the utility of those energy refills.
A fundamental game economy consideration is that different players use differing amounts of resources and earn them at different rates. There's no way to perfectly balance resources for all players. But if you add more of a certain resource to accommodate the players who need more or who otherwise earn less, you'll be providing those who don't have that limitation a large excess of those resources. If that excess can be converted into highly valuable commodities, then that excess isn't really extra: it fundamentally shifts the economy. Conversely, if you take those excesses away to eliminate that possibility, you constrain other players far more harshly than intended. The obvious solution that literally everyone uses is to apply either caps, limits, or diminishing returns on resource excesses, so that the players who need them more can take advantage of that higher availability to accommodate their needs, while players without those limitations cannot use them to gain too high of an advantage in other areas.
Plus, I'm going to be blunt here. You want them to "restore" the revive situation to its original state, and replace that with removing energy from the game that could be used to farm revives. If you were serious about such a suggestion, you would be recommending energy reductions so harsh that it would be impossible to farm revives in any large scale. But you aren't really suggesting that, are you? Your suggestion is the illusion of constraint without actually constraining anyone.
Second, I am not sure I understand why units are a necessary intermediary that players must use. I think we agree that, whether a person is grinding for units or revives, they both represent the same thing: time spent playing the game.
We don't agree. The unit grinding economy is very strictly regulated and managed. You can't autofight in the arena, for example. You can in normal content, including Act content. The revive farms were not special revive maps that could be engineered for farming. They were the normal content in the game that happened to contain excessive amounts of revives. That content was subject to normal content management rules, not grindable content like the arena.
We could try to engineer all content that contains revives to just coincidentally happen to work out so that the time spent grinding them happened to coincide with the amount of time it takes to earn the equivalent amount of units to buy the revives, with not only the same amount of time but also the same amount of actual effort. But that would be pointless. That's a lot of effort to put players back to where they are now. In fact, when you can earn a certain amount of revives or a certain amount of units equal to the cost of those revives with identical amounts of effort and time, it is *always* better to go for the units, because the units are intrinsically more useful, as you can either buy the revives or save them for something else. Revives do not have that flexibility.
I kinda saw this comming when they change the difficulty of lower EQ levels, and auto was no longer easy
No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.
Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.
I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.
Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.
When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.
You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.
You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.
Can I ask this then? Is it intended for Necropolis to cost units? If the inventory on revives is what it is, and there are paths that arguably take more revives than inventory allows, then by your reasoning we should be using units in Necropolis. I think we can all agree that is where the friction from the player base comes from. The choice to use units on revives for Necropolis(just necro for this argument) isn't a choice, if the content demands more revives than inventory allows to hold.
Nothing is ever "intended" to cost units directly. Rather, Necropolis is intended to have a certain level of high difficulty, and it is up to the players to decide if they can do it without units, or if they choose to do it with units, or if they decide to wait until they can do it at a cost level they feel is appropriate.
The entire premise of most F2P games is that you always have a choice: do it for free or do it with the assistance of spending. Doing it for free generally takes more time, more effort, and more skill. The Necropolis is no more "intended" to cost units than Act 5 is.
There is no content in the game that can't be beaten eventually for free with the right roster, the right skillset, and the right amount of practice. The problem is a lot of players have a single player mindset: they think the game is supposed to be balanced around them. If *they* can't do it for free, *today*, then the game is forcing *them* to spend. But the game is not forcing any one player to spend. It simply doesn't care if you spend or not, or for that matter if you ever do the content or not. It presents opportunities, knowing some players will succeed and some will fail, some will do it for free and some will spend.
Even if you could mathematically prove that some Necropolis paths required units, that wouldn't mean the game was forcing players to spend equally. There's a huge difference between a player choosing to spend 8000 units on Necropolis and a player choosing to spend 120. A player spending 120 is essentially spending nothing, unless it is against their religion to spend units. But a player spending 8000 a path is having to make a completely different choice than the first player, and it is a valid choice to consider whether that expenditure is worth it. If it is just gating Valiant, there will certainly be cheaper ways to get Valiant down the road than to spend fifty thousand units exploring Necropolis. But that is for the player to decide. The game isn't forcing that player to do anything. The whole history of the game, in fact, would demonstrate to any observant player that anything that costs a lot today will cost less tomorrow and eventually be achievable for free. The thing that is forcing a player to spend on Necropolis is not the game, it is their own impatience.
No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.
Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.
I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.
Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.
When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.
You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.
You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.
Can I ask this then? Is it intended for Necropolis to cost units? If the inventory on revives is what it is, and there are paths that arguably take more revives than inventory allows, then by your reasoning we should be using units in Necropolis. I think we can all agree that is where the friction from the player base comes from. The choice to use units on revives for Necropolis(just necro for this argument) isn't a choice, if the content demands more revives than inventory allows to hold.
Nothing is ever "intended" to cost units directly. Rather, Necropolis is intended to have a certain level of high difficulty, and it is up to the players to decide if they can do it without units, or if they choose to do it with units, or if they decide to wait until they can do it at a cost level they feel is appropriate.
The entire premise of most F2P games is that you always have a choice: do it for free or do it with the assistance of spending. Doing it for free generally takes more time, more effort, and more skill. The Necropolis is no more "intended" to cost units than Act 5 is.
There is no content in the game that can't be beaten eventually for free with the right roster, the right skillset, and the right amount of practice. The problem is a lot of players have a single player mindset: they think the game is supposed to be balanced around them. If *they* can't do it for free, *today*, then the game is forcing *them* to spend. But the game is not forcing any one player to spend. It simply doesn't care if you spend or not, or for that matter if you ever do the content or not. It presents opportunities, knowing some players will succeed and some will fail, some will do it for free and some will spend.
Even if you could mathematically prove that some Necropolis paths required units, that wouldn't mean the game was forcing players to spend equally. There's a huge difference between a player choosing to spend 8000 units on Necropolis and a player choosing to spend 120. A player spending 120 is essentially spending nothing, unless it is against their religion to spend units. But a player spending 8000 a path is having to make a completely different choice than the first player, and it is a valid choice to consider whether that expenditure is worth it. If it is just gating Valiant, there will certainly be cheaper ways to get Valiant down the road than to spend fifty thousand units exploring Necropolis. But that is for the player to decide. The game isn't forcing that player to do anything. The whole history of the game, in fact, would demonstrate to any observant player that anything that costs a lot today will cost less tomorrow and eventually be achievable for free. The thing that is forcing a player to spend on Necropolis is not the game, it is their own impatience.
I think patience is the key phrase here. Unfortunately gamers, and human beings in general, become used to instant gratification. That's the side effect of having a tear in the resource fabric like these. Once they become accustomed to easier methods, the idea of waiting and planning is not something they would prefer.
Second, I am not sure I understand why units are a necessary intermediary that players must use. I think we agree that, whether a person is grinding for units or revives, they both represent the same thing: time spent playing the game.
We don't agree. The unit grinding economy is very strictly regulated and managed. You can't autofight in the arena, for example. You can in normal content, including Act content. The revive farms were not special revive maps that could be engineered for farming. They were the normal content in the game that happened to contain excessive amounts of revives. That content was subject to normal content management rules, not grindable content like the arena.
We could try to engineer all content that contains revives to just coincidentally happen to work out so that the time spent grinding them happened to coincide with the amount of time it takes to earn the equivalent amount of units to buy the revives, with not only the same amount of time but also the same amount of actual effort. But that would be pointless. That's a lot of effort to put players back to where they are now. In fact, when you can earn a certain amount of revives or a certain amount of units equal to the cost of those revives with identical amounts of effort and time, it is *always* better to go for the units, because the units are intrinsically more useful, as you can either buy the revives or save them for something else. Revives do not have that flexibility.
I kinda saw this comming when they change the difficulty of lower EQ levels, and auto was no longer easy
These are related but not connected issues. The original intent of autofight was to allow players to automatically clear content that was so far below them that there was literally zero risk in that content, it was just a time sink. The question is how far below you should that be. Monthly EQ was tuned at a time when roster growth was far more constrained than it is now, and reflected the presumption that no matter how long you've been playing the game and no matter how high your progression level, you could still have only so strong of a roster.
But those assumptions have been long broken. Even Proven players have ridiculously strong rosters today relative to what we veterans had when we were doing that level of content. The lower tiers were not made more difficult to make it impossible to autofight (and honestly, I can still autofight everything below UC) it was made more difficult to match the strength of rosters that exist for the average player at those progression tiers. Doing that as a consequence makes it much harder to autofight unless you roster wildly overpowers it, but that's a logical side effect, not the intended effect.
When the change first appeared I told one of the developers that it seemed overtuned to me, because the implication was that Proven players (for example) had rosters of a certain strength - I forget what I calculated, but it was probably something like 5* R2s and R3. And I was told that yeah, because that is what the data showed those players actually had. Essentially, players were running through Act 2 and Act 3 with roster strengths stronger than what we had when we first tackled the Collector in Act 5. That's how much roster inflation has happened from then to now.
I’ve been caught up here. I didn’t want to clutter this thread with the play. It was all for fun. Hopefully it got at least one laugh from someone.
Apologies for the character name, it was the wrong choice. Should have gone with “Other Players”.
I was trying to find a way to convey how some of the messaging seemed disconnected.
I get that Kabam needs to control the economy. I get that unintended revive farms are a problem for that.
Maybe it’s semantics, but the part that bugged me was how it was portrayed. The issue isn’t too many revives being used. It’s those revives not costing what they should in the current economy of the game. I understand why that needs reigned in and I’m not bothered by it at all.
Can we get some info on what the chests in EQ are giving in terms of aggregate data? Mine almost always just give iso whereas in the past with spawned items in paths I could look for a reward I wanted. I remember there was some comments that said Kabam would monitor this. But haven’t heard anything since it was implemented.
Can we get some info on what the chests in EQ are giving in terms of aggregate data? Mine almost always just give iso whereas in the past with spawned items in paths I could look for a reward I wanted. I remember there was some comments that said Kabam would monitor this. But haven’t heard anything since it was implemented.
It would be greatly appreciated.
I think you're looking less for aggregate data and more for just a legit statistical breakdown from kabam telling you exactly what is in each chest with what percent chance for each item to be in there
I have a question for the Terrible Idea Fairies suggesting a revive/item cap in solo content.
Could you give me a preview of your forum posts when you reach the final boss, with say, 3 items left to use, and the flavor of the month bug causes you to die (dropped input, AI behavior, striker whiff, etc, etc, etc), forcing you to restart the entire quest.
Here's my take on this. This is nothing new. Just another chapter in revive farming crack down. Revive farming has been part of this game for a very long time. Since act 1 came out. All you old timers like me correct me if I'm wrong. I believe it was act 1-1-5. Cost something like 11 energy to farm a level 1 revive. It was always there everytime. I have 100% confidence the community will find another way to farm revives. And the cycle will begin anew.
No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.
Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.
I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.
Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.
When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.
You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.
You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.
Based on this, I feel like a better compromise would have been to keep the revive farm and nerf the availability of energy refills. Players cannot farm without energy, and many of us have energy refills in overflow with almost nothing to use them on without a farm. So, in line with the intention of forcing players to make a choice with their units, wouldn't it make more sense for players to be able to spend their units on energy refills and keep farming? Why can't we save units, reinvest those units into energy, and manually pluck the revives off of paths? Greater effort for a greater reward. The revives still expire, therefore they would need to be used. This creates the cycle of acquire units, buy refills, farm revives, complete content, and repeat.
An energy refill is 30 units and a 40% revive is 40 units. This is not a significant difference. However, with old revive farming methods, we could take a 30 unit energy refill and turn it into two or three 20% revives. The balance here is that there was some amount of time required by the player to be involved in the game (even if it's just setting up a team to auto fight) plus good ol' RNG. Some farms were more efficient and required less interactions, but that gives players incentive to rank champs specifically for farming purposes. We would also be choosing quantity (multiple 20% revives) over quality (one 40% revive). Additionally, people that buy units would be able to farm quicker, if needed.
I think Kabam should remove a majority of energy refills from rewards and free crystals and replace them with a high tier quest potion instead. Once that is done, I think revive farming should be restored to it's former availability. In this scenario, Kabam wins because they still get players to spend their units on difficult content via energy refills and players win because the ability to accumulate large amounts of revives for difficult content is still available. In my opinion, this is a much better compromise and it doesn't give the impression of a cash grab by Kabam.
The Apothecary is not a good enough compromise as revives will start to expire before the average player can accumulate enough to run a path in a piece of content like Necropolis. I believe this change to revive farming will end up frustrating many players as it will take most players months to acquire the necessary resources. Once they hit that wall, players will lose interest in the game and move on to something else.
I hope this suggestion will be considered!
They don't want people beefing up their accounts for free by farming revives and saving every unit possible for deals. They are making it a choice, do content or save. Personally as a spender (not a whale) I am perfrctly fine with this change. The deals on CM and Banquet were not great, which made me not spend that much and probably F2P grinders who saved managed to close in the gap to my account I am really sorry if F2Ps will disagree, but personally as a spender, I am not fine with F2Ps getting everything they want.
You didn't read or comprehend my post if you think my suggestion would be "for free". I'm suggesting reverting farming to how it was and nerfing the availability of energy refills. Then, a summoner can SPEND their units on energy refills if they want to farm. This means they WOULD NOT be able to save every unit possible on deals.
So.. spend on energy refills or.on revives... What is the difference? On the long run? And I did comprehend enough to understand you are looking for a compromise with nothing to negotiate. They don't want you to have that many revives for basically free, and then have 6-8k units or whatever it is for free to spend... Also if they stop giving energy, I would probably stop playing BGs...
The difference is that through more effort, I would be able to accumulate more revives. I'd get more bang for my buck. I could spend 300 units, take 10 refills, run through some lower difficulty quests, and probably come out with 15-20 revives as opposed to the 7-8 I could buy with the same amount of units.
Your explanation of what you can do is exactly why they are making the changes 🤣 Its a PRO PROFIT company!!
Okay, then be transparent about that. That didn't seem to be the message Miike was trying to communicate in his post. See my post that followed about how my example would still cost me $180 to fully explore Necro.
Also, let me clarify that I spend on this game. I have no issue swiping my credit card in order to help keep their lights on. I've spent more on this game than I've spent on any game ever. I'm not a F2P summoner complaining about not getting everything I want.
You want them to be transparent about being a for profit company?
It's more than a 10 unit discount with good RNG. Plus, if a summoner grows their team, it can be done passively on auto fight.
I could be wrong, but as far as I can tell there is only one difficulty in the monthly EQ that gives units anymore. I haven't looked at every reward payout.
I hope I'm not coming across as confrontational as we disagree. I simply think there is a better solution than what we have been given. As someone who has played this game for over 5 years and spent more on this game in that time than I have spent on any other game ever, I have a lot at stake in this.
I do appreciate the feedback.
contender, proven, conquerer, and uncollected difficulty all give units
i get the frustration of no longer being able to passively accumulate an absurd number of revives but there is a reason they’re removing it. whether you like the reason or not it is still a reason. 2 revives for free a day for very minimal effort is beyond fair. unless you really want to smash out all of necro in a week the amount you get for free is sufficient to explore it entirely in due time. you might need to rank up and ascend the right champs but every path is doable in 70 revives or less if you are skilled enough.
I looked closer and see that you are correct about the availability of units in those quests. I hadn't recognized that since there are several areas in which the rewards are displayed. Thank you for pointing that out. It's not much, but they are there.
I also don't think an "absurd" number of revives is good for the game. I don't think exploring Necro in a week would be fair. These absurd revive numbers are only possible due to the availability of energy. Otherwise, you run out or have to spend units. My solution does allow for absurd numbers, but it comes with a cost. I'm requesting that players still get to spend units, which either costs money or time in this game, to buy energy. Miike said he wants people spending units, and I'm considering that.
I have done one Necro path. I could have done it all in December if that was the route I wanted to take. I do have the skill and the roster capable of making that happen. I'm not out here trying to abuse the system.
Miike isn't really saying "Kabam wants you to spend units". He saying they want you to make that choice. He's not forcing you to use units. You have the opinion to get full on consumables and then make a run. Or you can chose to power your way through with units.
This is what it used to be. We went from asking how many units something would cost to complete vs asking where the best spot to farm revives is at.
No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.
Can we please end the "revive spam prevents endgame content development" narrative already? The actual issue is that Kabam doesn't want free revives to cut into their profit margins. If revive spamming truly were an existential threat to the game, Kabam would simply cap the number of revives on endgame quests, much like they do for AQ and AW. I'm not saying that's something the player base wants, but its absence is proof that Kabam doesn't think spamming revives isn't a problem so long as players purchase them with units.
I have seen you post this many times in different places, and I want to clarify something because we have not avoided this and have been clear about it; you can use all the revives you want if you are willing to use your units on them. We have said exactly that.
Units are powerful, and they are meant to be a choice.
When there are limitless revives available without the cost of units, that is specifically when it prevents the development of end-game content. That is when it is no longer worth our time or effort to make this content because players are not choosing to use their Units to progress over using them on other things.
You can farm all of the units you want and use them to buy all the revives in the world, but you're making the choice there for what you do with those units. You have to decide if you want to use them to finish content or to purchase other items.
You have to make the choice, and that is how this game had been for many years before farming started and the way it should be. Content should not be inevitable, and units aren't only for deals.
Based on this, I feel like a better compromise would have been to keep the revive farm and nerf the availability of energy refills. Players cannot farm without energy, and many of us have energy refills in overflow with almost nothing to use them on without a farm. So, in line with the intention of forcing players to make a choice with their units, wouldn't it make more sense for players to be able to spend their units on energy refills and keep farming? Why can't we save units, reinvest those units into energy, and manually pluck the revives off of paths? Greater effort for a greater reward. The revives still expire, therefore they would need to be used. This creates the cycle of acquire units, buy refills, farm revives, complete content, and repeat.
An energy refill is 30 units and a 40% revive is 40 units. This is not a significant difference. However, with old revive farming methods, we could take a 30 unit energy refill and turn it into two or three 20% revives. The balance here is that there was some amount of time required by the player to be involved in the game (even if it's just setting up a team to auto fight) plus good ol' RNG. Some farms were more efficient and required less interactions, but that gives players incentive to rank champs specifically for farming purposes. We would also be choosing quantity (multiple 20% revives) over quality (one 40% revive). Additionally, people that buy units would be able to farm quicker, if needed.
I think Kabam should remove a majority of energy refills from rewards and free crystals and replace them with a high tier quest potion instead. Once that is done, I think revive farming should be restored to it's former availability. In this scenario, Kabam wins because they still get players to spend their units on difficult content via energy refills and players win because the ability to accumulate large amounts of revives for difficult content is still available. In my opinion, this is a much better compromise and it doesn't give the impression of a cash grab by Kabam.
The Apothecary is not a good enough compromise as revives will start to expire before the average player can accumulate enough to run a path in a piece of content like Necropolis. I believe this change to revive farming will end up frustrating many players as it will take most players months to acquire the necessary resources. Once they hit that wall, players will lose interest in the game and move on to something else.
I hope this suggestion will be considered!
They don't want people beefing up their accounts for free by farming revives and saving every unit possible for deals. They are making it a choice, do content or save. Personally as a spender (not a whale) I am perfrctly fine with this change. The deals on CM and Banquet were not great, which made me not spend that much and probably F2P grinders who saved managed to close in the gap to my account I am really sorry if F2Ps will disagree, but personally as a spender, I am not fine with F2Ps getting everything they want.
You didn't read or comprehend my post if you think my suggestion would be "for free". I'm suggesting reverting farming to how it was and nerfing the availability of energy refills. Then, a summoner can SPEND their units on energy refills if they want to farm. This means they WOULD NOT be able to save every unit possible on deals.
So.. spend on energy refills or.on revives... What is the difference? On the long run? And I did comprehend enough to understand you are looking for a compromise with nothing to negotiate. They don't want you to have that many revives for basically free, and then have 6-8k units or whatever it is for free to spend... Also if they stop giving energy, I would probably stop playing BGs...
The difference is that through more effort, I would be able to accumulate more revives. I'd get more bang for my buck. I could spend 300 units, take 10 refills, run through some lower difficulty quests, and probably come out with 15-20 revives as opposed to the 7-8 I could buy with the same amount of units.
Your explanation of what you can do is exactly why they are making the changes 🤣 Its a PRO PROFIT company!!
Okay, then be transparent about that. That didn't seem to be the message Miike was trying to communicate in his post. See my post that followed about how my example would still cost me $180 to fully explore Necro.
Also, let me clarify that I spend on this game. I have no issue swiping my credit card in order to help keep their lights on. I've spent more on this game than I've spent on any game ever. I'm not a F2P summoner complaining about not getting everything I want.
You want them to be transparent about being a for profit company?
I don't think they could have been more clear with their intentions on the revive farm nerf. They spoke about it several times on stream and on the forums and always mentioned how units were supposed to be used instead. I understand the frustration with it but not the confusion as this didn't come out of the blue
No there shouldn't be. Revive farming is being removed because it is too easy to get free revives. If there is a half decent way to get 100+ revives within the week, expect all difficult content in the future to either not exist because the devs don't want to waste their time on it (as they talked about in one of the livestreams in december) or for them all to be as stupid difficult as the 4* Star Lord LoL challenge. By removing the easily accessible revives, we can see more content like Necropolis that don't cost a lot of resources to do with the right team. If you keep easy revives in, then every carina challenge is going to be like the Brian Grant necropolis duck run to compensate for you being able to get easy revives.
Where did I say there should be a way to get 100 revives within a week? I'm just saying there should be better avenues for revive gain rather than solo events and apothecary (trash)
So you don't "sit all day in the forums", you don't wanna do daily 22hr events, what do you exactly do in the game?
I have this crazy thing called a life, it's a 24 hour live event that runs 7 days a week!
Then you shouldn't be so worried about the game... 22hr events or 24hs if u wanna call em that don't take that long to complete. Why do people use the "I have a life" excuse as if other players didn't.
To make themselves seem superior
Just realized your not behind bars anymore, congrats (i know its off topic but i had to acknowledge it)
I have a question for the Terrible Idea Fairies suggesting a revive/item cap in solo content.
Could you give me a preview of your forum posts when you reach the final boss, with say, 3 items left to use, and the flavor of the month bug causes you to die (dropped input, AI behavior, striker whiff, etc, etc, etc), forcing you to restart the entire quest.
Don’t worry revive/item cap isn’t going to happen ever. It would create more outrage than any revive nerf could bring. Let alone the actual super frustrating situations, like your example would create. On the topic now. As a spender, I’m zero affected from revive farming, since I can buy them with units. Removing revive farming is healthy for the game, but there should be more ways to acquire L1 revives, other than the Apothecary. Level 1 revives for 20 units in the store, would be a pro player move by Kabam, to help FTP players, that now will have to grind arena a lot to buy the quite costly L2 revives for 40 units. Additionally the Apothecary could be buffed to give an additional L1 revive on easy difficulty exploration, or increase the drop rate of L2 at higher difficulty from 5% to 10% or 15% 🙂
OMG some of you really are running circles without understanding the simple thing that Kabam is trying to say.
USE THOSE UNITS, Kabam want everyone to use units instead of farming revive because everyone is just saving up units for deals and not spending them anywhere and this makes the deals suffer, the price of deals in July4 increased from 15k something to 28k? Why? because players were saving units all year long and Kabam don't want everyone to buy every single deal that easily.
Before revive was a thing and I was act-4 scrub, I did indeed farmed 4000 units for collector. If I knew about 3.2.6 I wouldn't do that.
But I WANT to see improve 3 things, 2 at least.
1. Reduce the % chance for energy refill in 4h crystals, those refills are now just not that needed and perhaps, improve % to obtain revive? 2. Maybe a small, diminutive, slight, miniature, little,tiny buff to Apothecary will be nice, maybe increase the chance to get L-2 revive to 30%? 3. Ability to purchase L-1 revives with units.
"we want you guys to run out of free revives for hard content, and then decide to buy unit packs with money, so then you can buy revives instead of spending your time on grinding for free revives so we will pretend like that's not the actual reason and make up excuses about how wE wOnT bE aBlE tO mAkE hArD cOnTenT aNyMoRe if our CEO can't buy another new summer house and yacht"
"we want you guys to run out of free revives for hard content, and then decide to buy unit packs with money, so then you can buy revives instead of spending your time on grinding for free revives so we will pretend like that's not the actual reason and make up excuses about how wE wOnT bE aBlE tO mAkE hArD cOnTenT aNyMoRe if our CEO can't buy another new summer house and yacht"
Ftfy miike.
You can buy beach houses when F2P players use farmed units?.. Nice.. and I wasted so many on the horrible Banquet...
"we want you guys to run out of free revives for hard content, and then decide to buy unit packs with money, so then you can buy revives instead of spending your time on grinding for free revives so we will pretend like that's not the actual reason and make up excuses about how wE wOnT bE aBlE tO mAkE hArD cOnTenT aNyMoRe if our CEO can't buy another new summer house and yacht"
Ftfy miike.
But you won't run out. Units are free in game. You don't have to spend a penny to get far in the game. You'll need to plan and strategize more now. That's the point of everest content but an unlimited supply of revives makes the planning and strategy part null and void.
Again, revives aren't what's driving profit for the game. Not only that, Kabam isn't getting that revenue anyway. It all goes to Netmarble. Do they have sales goals? Sure. Are they based on what content is released, very unlikely. That's why deals like C.W are around. Those used to be 1 day or 3 days for Christmas. Now they're a week long with more quantity you can buy.
"Kabam Miike" can you please review and approve my comment? It disappeared and said would require moderator approval. Or if there's an issue, can you let me know so I can revise it?
Just delete the thread in the comment you're replying
Comments
Units are also a closely controlled system that allows us to ensure that there's only X amount available by grinding every day/week/month/year. This has not prevented F2P players from finding great success in the game, and has been the case since the beginning of the game, including most of the game's lifetime that occurred before farming was possible.
The tradeoff is not the same in these cases.
We could try to engineer all content that contains revives to just coincidentally happen to work out so that the time spent grinding them happened to coincide with the amount of time it takes to earn the equivalent amount of units to buy the revives, with not only the same amount of time but also the same amount of actual effort. But that would be pointless. That's a lot of effort to put players back to where they are now. In fact, when you can earn a certain amount of revives or a certain amount of units equal to the cost of those revives with identical amounts of effort and time, it is *always* better to go for the units, because the units are intrinsically more useful, as you can either buy the revives or save them for something else. Revives do not have that flexibility.
A fundamental game economy consideration is that different players use differing amounts of resources and earn them at different rates. There's no way to perfectly balance resources for all players. But if you add more of a certain resource to accommodate the players who need more or who otherwise earn less, you'll be providing those who don't have that limitation a large excess of those resources. If that excess can be converted into highly valuable commodities, then that excess isn't really extra: it fundamentally shifts the economy. Conversely, if you take those excesses away to eliminate that possibility, you constrain other players far more harshly than intended. The obvious solution that literally everyone uses is to apply either caps, limits, or diminishing returns on resource excesses, so that the players who need them more can take advantage of that higher availability to accommodate their needs, while players without those limitations cannot use them to gain too high of an advantage in other areas.
Plus, I'm going to be blunt here. You want them to "restore" the revive situation to its original state, and replace that with removing energy from the game that could be used to farm revives. If you were serious about such a suggestion, you would be recommending energy reductions so harsh that it would be impossible to farm revives in any large scale. But you aren't really suggesting that, are you? Your suggestion is the illusion of constraint without actually constraining anyone.
The entire premise of most F2P games is that you always have a choice: do it for free or do it with the assistance of spending. Doing it for free generally takes more time, more effort, and more skill. The Necropolis is no more "intended" to cost units than Act 5 is.
There is no content in the game that can't be beaten eventually for free with the right roster, the right skillset, and the right amount of practice. The problem is a lot of players have a single player mindset: they think the game is supposed to be balanced around them. If *they* can't do it for free, *today*, then the game is forcing *them* to spend. But the game is not forcing any one player to spend. It simply doesn't care if you spend or not, or for that matter if you ever do the content or not. It presents opportunities, knowing some players will succeed and some will fail, some will do it for free and some will spend.
Even if you could mathematically prove that some Necropolis paths required units, that wouldn't mean the game was forcing players to spend equally. There's a huge difference between a player choosing to spend 8000 units on Necropolis and a player choosing to spend 120. A player spending 120 is essentially spending nothing, unless it is against their religion to spend units. But a player spending 8000 a path is having to make a completely different choice than the first player, and it is a valid choice to consider whether that expenditure is worth it. If it is just gating Valiant, there will certainly be cheaper ways to get Valiant down the road than to spend fifty thousand units exploring Necropolis. But that is for the player to decide. The game isn't forcing that player to do anything. The whole history of the game, in fact, would demonstrate to any observant player that anything that costs a lot today will cost less tomorrow and eventually be achievable for free. The thing that is forcing a player to spend on Necropolis is not the game, it is their own impatience.
But those assumptions have been long broken. Even Proven players have ridiculously strong rosters today relative to what we veterans had when we were doing that level of content. The lower tiers were not made more difficult to make it impossible to autofight (and honestly, I can still autofight everything below UC) it was made more difficult to match the strength of rosters that exist for the average player at those progression tiers. Doing that as a consequence makes it much harder to autofight unless you roster wildly overpowers it, but that's a logical side effect, not the intended effect.
When the change first appeared I told one of the developers that it seemed overtuned to me, because the implication was that Proven players (for example) had rosters of a certain strength - I forget what I calculated, but it was probably something like 5* R2s and R3. And I was told that yeah, because that is what the data showed those players actually had. Essentially, players were running through Act 2 and Act 3 with roster strengths stronger than what we had when we first tackled the Collector in Act 5. That's how much roster inflation has happened from then to now.
Apologies for the character name, it was the wrong choice. Should have gone with “Other Players”.
I was trying to find a way to convey how some of the messaging seemed disconnected.
I get that Kabam needs to control the economy. I get that unintended revive farms are a problem for that.
Maybe it’s semantics, but the part that bugged me was how it was portrayed. The issue isn’t too many revives being used. It’s those revives not costing what they should in the current economy of the game. I understand why that needs reigned in and I’m not bothered by it at all.
It would be greatly appreciated.
Could you give me a preview of your forum posts when you reach the final boss, with say, 3 items left to use, and the flavor of the month bug causes you to die (dropped input, AI behavior, striker whiff, etc, etc, etc), forcing you to restart the entire quest.
This is what it used to be. We went from asking how many units something would cost to complete vs asking where the best spot to farm revives is at.
It would create more outrage than any revive nerf could bring.
Let alone the actual super frustrating situations, like your example would create.
On the topic now.
As a spender, I’m zero affected from revive farming, since I can buy them with units.
Removing revive farming is healthy for the game, but there should be more ways to acquire L1 revives, other than the Apothecary.
Level 1 revives for 20 units in the store, would be a pro player move by Kabam, to help FTP players, that now will have to grind arena a lot to buy the quite costly L2 revives for 40 units.
Additionally the Apothecary could be buffed to give an additional L1 revive on easy difficulty exploration, or increase the drop rate of L2 at higher difficulty from 5% to 10% or 15% 🙂
USE THOSE UNITS, Kabam want everyone to use units instead of farming revive because everyone is just saving up units for deals and not spending them anywhere and this makes the deals suffer, the price of deals in July4 increased from 15k something to 28k? Why? because players were saving units all year long and Kabam don't want everyone to buy every single deal that easily.
Before revive was a thing and I was act-4 scrub, I did indeed farmed 4000 units for collector. If I knew about 3.2.6 I wouldn't do that.
But I WANT to see improve 3 things, 2 at least.
1. Reduce the % chance for energy refill in 4h crystals, those refills are now just not that needed and perhaps, improve % to obtain revive?
2. Maybe a small, diminutive, slight, miniature, little,tiny buff to Apothecary will be nice, maybe increase the chance to get L-2 revive to 30%?
3. Ability to purchase L-1 revives with units.
Ftfy miike.
Again, revives aren't what's driving profit for the game. Not only that, Kabam isn't getting that revenue anyway. It all goes to Netmarble. Do they have sales goals? Sure. Are they based on what content is released, very unlikely. That's why deals like C.W are around. Those used to be 1 day or 3 days for Christmas. Now they're a week long with more quantity you can buy.
Spare me the fake outrage.