Kinda miss Jax and Mikke

XXGhost_RiderXX

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

SlayerOfGods

Big agree. I expressed this in another thread yesterday. I've definitely been burnt out but I think that started when we had such a sudden shift in the community team.

CandyCane2

Let’s appreciate that EA isn’t running this game.

Ironwarrior

CandyCane2 said:

Let’s appreciate that EA isn’t running this game.

No comment

CandyCane2

Ironwarrior said:

CandyCane2 said:

Let’s appreciate that EA isn’t running this game.

No comment

A game I used to play got taken over by EA. It made players quit because they charged you for absolutely everything. Kabam is way better than EA.

Wozzle007

I think the new community team have nothing but good intentions and they may have some great mid to long term plans. But at the moment it feels like we only get substantial comms is when there’s a groundswell negativity towards the game and we get a response of “we hear you and we need to do better” but nothing really changes. The game is buggy as hell, posts highlighting issues get no response.

Maybe our expectations don’t match what the community teams job roll actually is. But at the moment, the game is in a strange place. I’m no where near to being at a point where I want to give up on the game, but I feel disillusioned with it at the same time.

T-DeAdLY-J

The communication has been diabolical and words can’t describe just how bad it is. Like sure if there are bugs in game, I want it fixed but man just have good communication with your players. That’s what keeps a game healthy too, devs which are open with their players and keep us updated with what’s going on behind the scenes. Just my two cents.

BringPopcorn

I miss how they kept their distance and were able to handle bad news even if it was bad.
Yes people, community managers are not your friends. No matter how friendly they act, they are tied and allowed to help or give information up to a certain point that is allowed by the company.
I appreciated they straight foward blunt way of communicating the good and the bad, very different from today that feels like a friendly stalling.

The_0wenpus

Ironwarrior said:

CandyCane2 said:

Let’s appreciate that EA isn’t running this game.

No comment

Actions speak louder than words.

GroundedWisdom

I miss them, but I also respect the current team. Miike had been here for many years, and had found his groove. Jax was his hire. These guys are doing well. It takes time to adjust.

Smoky4ii20

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

ahmynuts

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

Yes. The guy that was super pumped about spider punk coming to the game had no love for it.
Math isn't mathing

Darkraw346

Kinda unrelated but I think Jax and Miike's "take" on the livestreams was more genuine. Now with Dave and Karatemike everything there feels kinda forced, the laughs too

Pikolu

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

Friendly reminder to keep feedback constructive. I miss Jax and Miike too, but that is no reason to trash on the current or old community teams.

ahmynuts

Darkraw346 said:

Kinda unrelated but I think Jax and Miike's "take" on the livestreams was more genuine. Now with Dave and Karatemike everything there feels kinda forced, the laughs too

Considering the streams were Jax's idea in the first place and something he pushed for i would be hard pressed to believe he wasnt genuine

Pikolu

Darkraw346 said:

Kinda unrelated but I think Jax and Miike's "take" on the livestreams was more genuine. Now with Dave and Karatemike everything there feels kinda forced, the laughs too

Jax is also a streamer, so it makes sense that he is comfortable doing a stream.

BringPopcorn

ahmynuts and myself miss jail tbh...

SlayerOfGods

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about btw.

Bendy

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

Mike was great when comes to forums as he wouldnt take most stuff like this for example where ur post be deleted in matter of seconds he also wasnt taking things lightly with in game bans from forum actions due to it being an official forum actions have consequences he also wouldnt let a lot of things slide

ItsClobberinTime

100% agree, 2022 was for me the best year for mcoc, 2022 and 2023 (until right before Banquet cause we all know Banquet 2023 sucked) was the most fun I ever had playing this game. But then everything started to go downhill from there, champ quality AI issues lack of communication and 6-8 months later both Miike and Jax were gone, and it's been getting worse ever since with all the outdated rewards and monthly content that feels more like a chore than anything.
I'm not necessarily blaming all this on the new team I'm just saying, whoever was making all the decisions back then and being in charge of communication which meant voicing our concerns to the rest of the team, made the game way more enjoyable for me. That's all I know.

BringPopcorn

There were rumors that Mike used to actually do a lot of "fighting" for the players with some company decisions or things...Maybe that's what's missing

Smoky4ii20

SlayerOfGods said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about btw.

Brother you dress as comic character for no reason , what are you talking about , going to meat ride 2 dudes that only mistreated this community for a long time the only people that like those 2 are the ones that they would protect , back in the day you couldn't say anything about the game not working without Mike being very disrespectful , at least now we have freedom of speech and when is something that actually deserves attention pinwheel is always there .

So I stand on what I said way better without those 2

BringPopcorn

Smoky4ii20 said:

SlayerOfGods said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about btw.

Brother you dress as comic character for no reason , what are you talking about , going to meat ride 2 dudes that only mistreated this community for a long time the only people that like those 2 are the ones that they would protect , back in the day you couldn't say anything about the game not working without Mike being very disrespectful , at least now we have freedom of speech and when is something that actually deserves attention pinwheel is always there .

So I stand on what I said way better without those 2

Are you salty cause they banned you from the forums before?

Smoky4ii20

BringPopcorn said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

SlayerOfGods said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about btw.

Brother you dress as comic character for no reason , what are you talking about , going to meat ride 2 dudes that only mistreated this community for a long time the only people that like those 2 are the ones that they would protect , back in the day you couldn't say anything about the game not working without Mike being very disrespectful , at least now we have freedom of speech and when is something that actually deserves attention pinwheel is always there .

So I stand on what I said way better without those 2

Are you salty cause they banned you from the forums before?

Did they ? Now the usual weirdos trying to create stuff that never happened l, self entitled kabam employee trying to make his name .

BringPopcorn

Smoky4ii20 said:

BringPopcorn said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

SlayerOfGods said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about btw.

Brother you dress as comic character for no reason , what are you talking about , going to meat ride 2 dudes that only mistreated this community for a long time the only people that like those 2 are the ones that they would protect , back in the day you couldn't say anything about the game not working without Mike being very disrespectful , at least now we have freedom of speech and when is something that actually deserves attention pinwheel is always there .

So I stand on what I said way better without those 2

Are you salty cause they banned you from the forums before?

Did they ? Now the usual weirdos trying to create stuff that never happened lol.

Well your forum account is from July 2023... Considering they left in 2024,, if you didn't have a forum account that got banned before, you didn't really interact much with them other than a few months...
So yeah you probably got no idea what you are talking about

ItsClobberinTime

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

This halfwitted comment is the equivalent to Charliejiggens complaining about losing a BGs fight when he clearly had less points than the other person, completely dead from the neck up.

Smoky4ii20

BringPopcorn said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

SlayerOfGods said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about btw.

Brother you dress as comic character for no reason , what are you talking about , going to meat ride 2 dudes that only mistreated this community for a long time the only people that like those 2 are the ones that they would protect , back in the day you couldn't say anything about the game not working without Mike being very disrespectful , at least now we have freedom of speech and when is something that actually deserves attention pinwheel is always there .

So I stand on what I said way better without those 2

Are you salty cause they banned you from the forums before?

Salty because of the amount of times I saw very good threads getting wasted because Mike would just be disrespectful and Jax would just go ahead and close the thread and they never did that to me , just saying from stuff I saw happening.
You guys just want to complain because they don't give attention for you guys when there's no need , but Mike would always talk in useless threads and let the one that could help the game to get better just go to waste.

BringPopcorn

Smoky4ii20 said:

BringPopcorn said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

SlayerOfGods said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about btw.

Brother you dress as comic character for no reason , what are you talking about , going to meat ride 2 dudes that only mistreated this community for a long time the only people that like those 2 are the ones that they would protect , back in the day you couldn't say anything about the game not working without Mike being very disrespectful , at least now we have freedom of speech and when is something that actually deserves attention pinwheel is always there .

So I stand on what I said way better without those 2

Are you salty cause they banned you from the forums before?

Salty because of the amount of times I saw very good threads getting wasted because Mike would just be disrespectful and Jax would just go ahead and close the thread and they never did that to me , just saying from stuff I saw happening.
You guys just want to complain because they don't give attention for you guys when there's no need , but Mike would always talk in useless threads and let the one that could help the game to get better just go to waste.

Yeah I can imagine the quality of those threads based on the way you communicate rofl...

BringPopcorn

Smoky4ii20 said:

BringPopcorn said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

BringPopcorn said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

SlayerOfGods said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about btw.

Brother you dress as comic character for no reason , what are you talking about , going to meat ride 2 dudes that only mistreated this community for a long time the only people that like those 2 are the ones that they would protect , back in the day you couldn't say anything about the game not working without Mike being very disrespectful , at least now we have freedom of speech and when is something that actually deserves attention pinwheel is always there .

So I stand on what I said way better without those 2

Are you salty cause they banned you from the forums before?

Did they ? Now the usual weirdos trying to create stuff that never happened lol.

Well your forum account is from July 2023... Considering they left in 2024,, if you didn't have a forum account that got banned before, you didn't really interact much with them other than a few months...
So yeah you probably got no idea what you are talking about

But did they ? Is my account banned ? Or you just saying stuff you don't know how to look good ?

It was a question why are you getting all twisted about it.
A normal person would say "No, I just didn't like them"; but you seem to have some agenda.
I was jailed many times by them, I got no personal issues with them.

Bendy

BringPopcorn said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

BringPopcorn said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

BringPopcorn said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

SlayerOfGods said:

Smoky4ii20 said:

XXGhost_RiderXX said:

Hey yall, been a while since I last posted. Just wanted to express a sentiment I think many share - I miss Jax and Mikke running the community of this game. I feel the current community team is lacking. Minimal response on the forums mainly…

Also the game has felt like it’s lacked direction and the team has been seriously out of touch with the player base. All the new stuff is cool and all but the increased monetization, the story lines and the lack of fun/new content (that isn’t rehashed) has been abysmal and/or tremendously grindy.

I understand overall this is more than just the new community team, but the game has changed since their (Mikke and Jax’s) departure or maybe that’s just the whole correlation/causation argument.

Way better without those two , the game was already bad before they left , Mike was just a lame person in general had no love for the community and Jax had no love at all for the game you could see the sarcasm in his face every time he would mention anything new coming to the game , we didn't lose anything, new team is way better most of the threads these days have no constructive arguments , so there's no reason for them tho waste time answering everyone, is all about rants and self promotion theses days .

You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about btw.

Brother you dress as comic character for no reason , what are you talking about , going to meat ride 2 dudes that only mistreated this community for a long time the only people that like those 2 are the ones that they would protect , back in the day you couldn't say anything about the game not working without Mike being very disrespectful , at least now we have freedom of speech and when is something that actually deserves attention pinwheel is always there .

So I stand on what I said way better without those 2

Are you salty cause they banned you from the forums before?

Did they ? Now the usual weirdos trying to create stuff that never happened lol.

Well your forum account is from July 2023... Considering they left in 2024,, if you didn't have a forum account that got banned before, you didn't really interact much with them other than a few months...
So yeah you probably got no idea what you are talking about

But did they ? Is my account banned ? Or you just saying stuff you don't know how to look good ?

It was a question why are you getting all twisted about it.
A normal person would say "No, I just didn't like them"; but you seem to have some agenda.

Probs from the june posts he saw which were all valid reasons to be removed and banned

Ironwarrior

CandyCane2 said:

Ironwarrior said:

CandyCane2 said:

Let’s appreciate that EA isn’t running this game.

No comment

A game I used to play got taken over by EA. It made players quit because they charged you for absolutely everything. Kabam is way better than EA.

Still we shouldn't ease the current state of the game due to worse situations (also wow EA is thar bad)