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I don't understand why we have to sell Namor and/or Cull instead of getting rank down tickets.

raffsterraffster Posts: 1,071 ★★★
in General Discussion
In the past when there were champ changes made Kabam usually offered rank down tickets. But now we have to sell the champ they initially messed up and fixed, and now we have to lose them?

I'd be more inclined to agree to this rather extreme move if Kabam returns the amount of units or $$$ we spent to get that champ in the first place.

Imagine buying a car then finding out later that the car manufacturer needs to modify it (because it's not working as intended). So you go back to the dealership to "sell" your car back to the dealer but instead of getting a new car you get parts of your old car back and no money to get you a new car.

Someone please help me understand what's going on here.

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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,660 Guardian
    raffster said:

    In the past when there were champ changes made Kabam usually offered rank down tickets. But now we have to sell the champ they initially messed up and fixed, and now we have to lose them?

    I'd be more inclined to agree to this rather extreme move if Kabam returns the amount of units or $$$ we spent to get that champ in the first place.

    Imagine buying a car then finding out later that the car manufacturer needs to modify it (because it's not working as intended). So you go back to the dealership to "sell" your car back to the dealer but instead of getting a new car you get parts of your old car back and no money to get you a new car.

    Someone please help me understand what's going on here.

    The simple version is that rank down tickets don't de-sig champions. If Kabam handed out Cull-specific rank down tickets the only thing those tickets would do is hand you back catalysts. Presumably ISO and gold (some did, some didn't, but it is safe to assume it is possible). But RDTs did not hand you back awakening gems if you used those, or sig stones if you used those. Since that capability doesn't exist in the current RDT mechanism, Kabam decided to use the mechanism of selling the champ instead.

    You're still getting the champ back, just with more stuff refunded in the end. The rest of your editorializing is irrelevant to the refund mechanism.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,247 ★★★★★
    What you're getting is much better than an RDT.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,247 ★★★★★
    Unless you're planning on using it for another Champ. That I can't get behind.
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    NeotwismNeotwism Posts: 1,803 ★★★★★
    I know kabam can't do anything about it, but I feel it's wrong and unethical for players to take advantage of kabams return policy. I know lots of ppl who even before the rebalance regretted ranking him up or have already used him for what they needed in variants and now plan on using the resources on another champ. It's stuff like this that makes kabam hesitant to give RDT more often when changing champs. Just my personal opinion
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,660 Guardian
    Neotwism said:

    I know kabam can't do anything about it, but I feel it's wrong and unethical for players to take advantage of kabams return policy. I know lots of ppl who even before the rebalance regretted ranking him up or have already used him for what they needed in variants and now plan on using the resources on another champ. It's stuff like this that makes kabam hesitant to give RDT more often when changing champs. Just my personal opinion

    I'm not sure I understand the problem. The whole point of offering players the opportunity to get the resources back is to use them somewhere else. Why the players might do this is mostly irrelevant. The rationale for giving players this option generally has little to do with why a player might decide to change their minds on rank ups, and more to do with whether the choice was a reasonable one. Champions are subject to change and players should know this before going after them or ranking them up. But game operators recognize that some changes may cross a fuzzy line into being an unfair choice. If the game operator decides a game choice is unfair, it doesn't matter why players chose to go one way or the other, all players generally get the mulligan to redo the choice.
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    NeotwismNeotwism Posts: 1,803 ★★★★★
    @DNA3000 Thats just it, it's not available to everyone. It's only available to ppl who won the rng lottery. Ppl that spent money or units and didn't get lucky to pull the champ don't get the same advantage. The game requires certain champs to clear certain content. Once it's cleared they rarely will go back to do it again for no rewards. Ppl that get a champ can clear specific content and then won't ever revisit it. They can now sell that champ to rank up someone else to clear another piece of content. Kabam isn't consistent when it comes to these things. AA got changed and his owners weren't allowed to get anything. Other champs have been changed and those changes didn't warrant refunds for some strange reason. I believe that any time a champ is changed ppl should have the option to get their resources back no matter what the change is. For example Maw. They said he would be rebalanced to improve his attack. From my use he hasn't changed a bit. Why shouldn't his owners get their resources back? Maw's owners aren't happy with his changes the same as some Namor owners and some Cull owners. I'm just using him as an example here. In each case a champ was changed from what the player originally thought they were getting. Players would be more willing to buy crystals knowing if the champ gets changed they will be able to decide if they like the changes or not and get their resources back.
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    ReferenceReference Posts: 2,899 ★★★★★
    Actually the current arrangement is better than just giving you RDT. Did OP think about that? I think what Kabam did this time is totally acceptable.
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    DemonzfyreDemonzfyre Posts: 21,026 ★★★★★
    GluteusMaximus said:

    anyone ever read this thing?




    technically also the content creators who use the services "for commercial purposes" are also violating the tos. and, judging from global chat, there's a number of pre-thirteen year olds playing this game.

    tos - a fun read.

    No, it even says Kabam wants them to make videos on the new champs. Its the entire purpose of the whole content creator program.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,247 ★★★★★
    GluteusMaximus said:

    anyone ever read this thing?




    technically also the content creators who use the services "for commercial purposes" are also violating the tos. and, judging from global chat, there's a number of pre-thirteen year olds playing this game.

    tos - a fun read.

    The Content Creators Program is a joint partnership between Kabam and the CCs. Further to that, it's never been erroneous to broadcast the game. It's not in any proprietary or ownership capacity.
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    GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 36,247 ★★★★★
    Neotwism said:

    @DNA3000 Thats just it, it's not available to everyone. It's only available to ppl who won the rng lottery. Ppl that spent money or units and didn't get lucky to pull the champ don't get the same advantage. The game requires certain champs to clear certain content. Once it's cleared they rarely will go back to do it again for no rewards. Ppl that get a champ can clear specific content and then won't ever revisit it. They can now sell that champ to rank up someone else to clear another piece of content. Kabam isn't consistent when it comes to these things. AA got changed and his owners weren't allowed to get anything. Other champs have been changed and those changes didn't warrant refunds for some strange reason. I believe that any time a champ is changed ppl should have the option to get their resources back no matter what the change is. For example Maw. They said he would be rebalanced to improve his attack. From my use he hasn't changed a bit. Why shouldn't his owners get their resources back? Maw's owners aren't happy with his changes the same as some Namor owners and some Cull owners. I'm just using him as an example here. In each case a champ was changed from what the player originally thought they were getting. Players would be more willing to buy crystals knowing if the champ gets changed they will be able to decide if they like the changes or not and get their resources back.

    I'm not sure I follow that. The point isn't to provide some sort of advantage. It's to allow people the option of changing their Roster as a result of the changes. Something that people have petitioned for at great lengths when changes like AA have been made. Although it is worth pointing out that AA, Drax, and other fixes weren't deliberate alterations. Those Champs were never meant to function that way. It's not really winning the RNG lottery. It's a response to the changes that directly affect those who own the Champs. I fail to see how everyone should be allowed that option because not all Champs are being affected the same. Additions aren't the same as subtractions.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,660 Guardian
    GluteusMaximus said:

    anyone ever read this thing?

    Multiple times.
    GluteusMaximus said:

    technically also the content creators who use the services "for commercial purposes" are also violating the tos. and, judging from global chat, there's a number of pre-thirteen year olds playing this game.

    tos - a fun read.

    Actually, any streamer in general is not violating the TOS by streaming. The TOS grants a license to play the game for non-commercial purposes. That is an explicit grant of a right. Therefore, they can't sue me for playing the game without permission. The TOS also explicitly states that it does not grant the right to use the game for any other purpose. That means the TOS does not grant the right to stream the game. However that does not mean the TOS forbids streaming the game or that streaming the game breaks the TOS. Instead, this simply means that the people who stream do so without an explicit right to do so, and Kabam could choose to stop them if they wish, or not stop them if they wish. Copyright is enforced at the sole discretion of the right holder (unlike, say, Trademark rights which must be enforced at all times or they can be terminated).

    Content creators operate under a separate explicit agreement with Kabam which almost certainly explicitly grants them the right to broadcast game content as part of the content preview program.
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    DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 18,660 Guardian
    Neotwism said:

    @DNA3000 Thats just it, it's not available to everyone. It's only available to ppl who won the rng lottery. Ppl that spent money or units and didn't get lucky to pull the champ don't get the same advantage. The game requires certain champs to clear certain content. Once it's cleared they rarely will go back to do it again for no rewards. Ppl that get a champ can clear specific content and then won't ever revisit it. They can now sell that champ to rank up someone else to clear another piece of content. Kabam isn't consistent when it comes to these things. AA got changed and his owners weren't allowed to get anything. Other champs have been changed and those changes didn't warrant refunds for some strange reason. I believe that any time a champ is changed ppl should have the option to get their resources back no matter what the change is. For example Maw. They said he would be rebalanced to improve his attack. From my use he hasn't changed a bit. Why shouldn't his owners get their resources back? Maw's owners aren't happy with his changes the same as some Namor owners and some Cull owners. I'm just using him as an example here. In each case a champ was changed from what the player originally thought they were getting. Players would be more willing to buy crystals knowing if the champ gets changed they will be able to decide if they like the changes or not and get their resources back.

    There's two ideas here that are linked, the idea that these refund opportunities are only available to the players that actually got the champion in the first place and that refunds should be made available for all champs for all changes.

    Second one first: a fundamental cornerstone of games as a service is the game will constantly change, and change that impacts the players in noticeable ways is unavoidable. That is a given, and the game can't be refunding players on every change because that would make refunds ubiquitous. Ubiquitous refunds fundamentally break a principle of the game's resource system that player resource decisions must have permanent consequences. If you can make any choice you want, knowing that eventually you'll be able to undo it and change it, that makes all choices meaningless.

    That's why in general, refunds are not allowed. However, this is not an absolute principle, as no game design principle is absolute. Counterbalancing this one is the notion that game choices should be fair. And fairness generally revolves around players being properly informed about their choices. Informed choice and accepting the game's fluidity are somewhat opposing principles, and there has to be a compromise between the two. That compromise is usually made in most games with limited respec/redo when game changes cross some set of thresholds. A change can be dramatic enough, or it can be coupled to circumstances that magnify its impact. In those limited sets of circumstances, players should be offered the chance to change their choices. But this presumes those players were offered those choices in the first place. If they were not, by definition they couldn't have been offered an unfair choice.

    Now, does this sometimes grant some players advantages? Sure. No compromise is perfect. But if you're concerned about this advantage, then you shouldn't believe that all changes should trigger refunds, because then you're taking this problem and expanding it wildly. It doesn't average out, because as you said yourself, champions are acquired randomly. The very thing you point out as being problematic is why refunds are limited in scope and not expanded in scope.
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    Kabam LyraKabam Lyra Posts: 2,936 ★★★
    The reason for the system being used for Cull Obsidian and Namor is so that we can give back Awakening Gems and Signature Stones which is not possible with a Rank Down Ticket at this time. More details can be found in the announcement thread.

    https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/179310/champion-rebalance-information-february-2020#latest
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