Champs DESCRIPTIONS too Complex or Time Consuming now?

KeepinItRealKeepinItReal Posts: 193
edited March 18 in General Discussion
Example: I read Mole Man's description that Unstoppable is a "debuff" under Monster Mass - Passive section. Yet under Frenzy it's an Unstoppable "effect".
Since IWCap kinetically charged doesn't nullify Unstoppable "effects", but does "debuffs",...for clarity shouldn't it say "effect" under both or "becomes Unstoppable" similar to Things description?

These types of recent descriptions where buffs, debuffs, passive effect interactions need to be diciphered are becoming tiresome. Especially when they aren't always clear or correct (Like what Wasp shruggs off or Stealthys lights can't be parried still not updated). "working as intended" is common & "not working as intended" (She-Hulk & every heavy similar changed after effectively countering Act 6.2 Champion) Sharing this bc many "wait, what just happened" often requires research. Even "searching" for confirmation or having to post this is time consuming & contrary to Kabams CEO Tim Fields words "...delight from the moment you first touch them..." to me. That's been my recent experience even though I do like figuring out some things. I don't like spending time searching google, Reddit, forums to have fun playing a game I enjoy with alliance mates.
Does anyone else feel this way?


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Comments

  • KeepinItRealKeepinItReal Posts: 193
    edited March 20
    @DNA3000 I thought the same. If it has the broken white circle around the icon it is a passive effect (buff or debuffs) that can't be interacted with (nullified, armor broken, etc) So there are active buffs & debuffs, passive buffs & debuffs plus passive effects from nodes, abilities, etc. (Visions Power Burn is not a debuffs bc it's his unique ability, etc)
    Yet recently someone said that's incorrect,..that there are only Buffs, Debuffs & Passive effects/abilities. What's the correct way to interpret these? @Kabam Zibiit @Kabam Vydious @Kabam Lyra @Kabam Porthos.
    My point was to stay consistent just say in both areas it's an Unstoppable Debuffs or "becomes unstoppable" like Thing. It doesn't matter if IWCap hits into a block if it is a "debuffs" (vs Juggs, UColossus, Champion, etc) bc kinetically charged he nullifies that debuff. Unless he can nullify if Mole Man has up to 5 Monster Mass, but in Frenzy he can't nullify,...which is even more confusing.
    So why even have "debuff'" in the description at all?

    This is exactly what I'm referring to,...it takes "research" & sometimes we get the incorrect answers or it becomes more confusing. Lol
  • KeepinItRealKeepinItReal Posts: 193
    @Rayven5220 I agree, glad to know I'm not alone. Lol

    @Colonaut123 yes, it seemed alot clearer before all the unique abilities/effects & long descriptions started being added & the interactions being unclear when u have a "wait, what just happened" moment. Is it a bug, am I not understanding the champ correctly or the champ/node combo or abilities vs buffs/debuffs interaction, etc. Then we gotta spend time to figure it out, like now. I wish there was 100% confirmation from Kabam on this to simplify it. Like u said, so many exceptions make it confusing. Ugh
  • KeepinItRealKeepinItReal Posts: 193

    Honestly, I like it. 2015 champs tend to only have like 2-3 abilities and it makes them boring to play. Now almost every new champ comes with a quirky new playstyle because of their massive abilities and it makes fun getting to know how the newest champion actually works.

    I agree, also like figuring out how to play new champs & appreciate Kabam working hard to introduce cool abilities. It's the descriptions & interactions between different champs, nodes, etc that can be grey. During gameplay it should be clear how things interact. Add to that bugs, fixes, working or not working as intended, description errors or changes & it becomes very time consuming if u want clear, definitive confirmation. I know these types of "issues" happen in every game & it's not Kabam employees fault.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 10,237 Guardian

    @DNA3000 I thought the same. If it has the broken white circle around the icon it is a passive effect (buff or debuffs) that can't be interacted with (nullified, armor broken, etc) So there are active buffs & debuffs, passive buffs & debuffs plus passive effects from nodes, abilities, etc. (Visions Power Burn is not a debuffs bc it's his unique ability, etc)
    Yet recently someone said that's incorrect,..that there are only Buffs, Debuffs & Passive effects/abilities. What's the correct way to interpret these? @Kabam Zibiit @Kabam Vydious @Kabam Lyra @Kabam Porthos.
    My point was to stay consistent just say in both areas it's an Unstoppable Debuffs or "becomes unstoppable" like Thing. It doesn't matter if IWCap hits into a block if it is a "debuffs" (vs Juggs, UColossus, Champion, etc) bc kinetically charged he nullifies that debuff. Unless he can nullify if Mole Man has up to 5 Monster Mass, but in Frenzy he can't nullify,...which is even more confusing.
    So why even have "debuff'" in the description at all?

    This is exactly what I'm referring to,...it takes "research" & sometimes we get the incorrect answers or it becomes more confusing. Lol

    "Active" is not the opposite of "Passive." "Active" means an effect is "on." This was discussed on the forums a while back: for an example of this terminology in action read the description for "Null's Shadow" for Symbiote Supreme. Null's Shadow is a passive ability (one of SS's three phases) and its description reads: "While active gain a 15% chance to ..."

    Effects can be classified as "Buff" or "Debuff" or "Passive." Theoretically speaking, an effect can have none of these flags: if an effect has none of these flags then it doesn't act like any of these things. Some node effects, for example, do not act as Buffs or Debuffs or Passives when it comes to interacting with other things (that's why some node degen effects don't trigger Hulk Rag's Face Me ability, in spite of the fact that they appear to use the same kind of icon as normal passive effects).

    Incidentally, a Passive Ability and a Passive Effect are two different things. A Passive Ability is always on. In other words, a Passive Ability is always Active. A Passive Effect is an effect modifier that is tagged with the Passive Tag, no more, no less, which determines how other abilities and effects interact with it. To put it another way, "Buff" "Debuff" and "Passive" are effect "colors." It has nothing to do with what the effect does, it is a label the devs put on the effect, like painting it a color. For more information, see Frequently Asked Questions about Combat Mechanics.

    It is possible that the description cannot be made any simpler, because it is saying something precise. I can't say for certain (the description could also be wrong) but if Mole Man works exactly as described then the description cannot be changed to what you want, for this reason. Suppose Mole Man was sitting on a node that made him go Passively Unstoppable at certain times. Now, if you are attacking Mole Man on this node and he has five Monster Mass charges and then the node gives him a passive unstoppable effect, does he trigger Frenzy?

    According to the description, he does. The description doesn't say when he triggers his own Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy, it says *whenever* an Unstoppable effect of any kind activates on Mole Man, he triggers Frenzy.

    If we change the description to be "consistent" like you want it to be, the description in this situation would be wrong. It would say "when he gains an Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy" but when a node gives him a passive unstoppable that's *not* a buff, so he shouldn't trigger Frenzy.

    In other words, the description you are suggesting actually says something different than the description that Mole Man actually has. Because they are not synonymous the devs may be unable to simplify it in the manner you think they should.
  • lowlevelplayerlowlevelplayer Posts: 1,948 ★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    @DNA3000 I thought the same. If it has the broken white circle around the icon it is a passive effect (buff or debuffs) that can't be interacted with (nullified, armor broken, etc) So there are active buffs & debuffs, passive buffs & debuffs plus passive effects from nodes, abilities, etc. (Visions Power Burn is not a debuffs bc it's his unique ability, etc)
    Yet recently someone said that's incorrect,..that there are only Buffs, Debuffs & Passive effects/abilities. What's the correct way to interpret these? @Kabam Zibiit @Kabam Vydious @Kabam Lyra @Kabam Porthos.
    My point was to stay consistent just say in both areas it's an Unstoppable Debuffs or "becomes unstoppable" like Thing. It doesn't matter if IWCap hits into a block if it is a "debuffs" (vs Juggs, UColossus, Champion, etc) bc kinetically charged he nullifies that debuff. Unless he can nullify if Mole Man has up to 5 Monster Mass, but in Frenzy he can't nullify,...which is even more confusing.
    So why even have "debuff'" in the description at all?

    This is exactly what I'm referring to,...it takes "research" & sometimes we get the incorrect answers or it becomes more confusing. Lol

    "Active" is not the opposite of "Passive." "Active" means an effect is "on." This was discussed on the forums a while back: for an example of this terminology in action read the description for "Null's Shadow" for Symbiote Supreme. Null's Shadow is a passive ability (one of SS's three phases) and its description reads: "While active gain a 15% chance to ..."

    Effects can be classified as "Buff" or "Debuff" or "Passive." Theoretically speaking, an effect can have none of these flags: if an effect has none of these flags then it doesn't act like any of these things. Some node effects, for example, do not act as Buffs or Debuffs or Passives when it comes to interacting with other things (that's why some node degen effects don't trigger Hulk Rag's Face Me ability, in spite of the fact that they appear to use the same kind of icon as normal passive effects).

    Incidentally, a Passive Ability and a Passive Effect are two different things. A Passive Ability is always on. In other words, a Passive Ability is always Active. A Passive Effect is an effect modifier that is tagged with the Passive Tag, no more, no less, which determines how other abilities and effects interact with it. To put it another way, "Buff" "Debuff" and "Passive" are effect "colors." It has nothing to do with what the effect does, it is a label the devs put on the effect, like painting it a color. For more information, see Frequently Asked Questions about Combat Mechanics.

    It is possible that the description cannot be made any simpler, because it is saying something precise. I can't say for certain (the description could also be wrong) but if Mole Man works exactly as described then the description cannot be changed to what you want, for this reason. Suppose Mole Man was sitting on a node that made him go Passively Unstoppable at certain times. Now, if you are attacking Mole Man on this node and he has five Monster Mass charges and then the node gives him a passive unstoppable effect, does he trigger Frenzy?

    According to the description, he does. The description doesn't say when he triggers his own Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy, it says *whenever* an Unstoppable effect of any kind activates on Mole Man, he triggers Frenzy.

    If we change the description to be "consistent" like you want it to be, the description in this situation would be wrong. It would say "when he gains an Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy" but when a node gives him a passive unstoppable that's *not* a buff, so he shouldn't trigger Frenzy.

    In other words, the description you are suggesting actually says something different than the description that Mole Man actually has. Because they are not synonymous the devs may be unable to simplify it in the manner you think they should.
    Can I get a TLDR? I feel like I just read one of those essays that loops around and has no meaning.
  • MikeHockMikeHock Posts: 1,682 ★★★★
    Datman257 said:

    Lmao I would take long descriptions over nothing. Miles' sp3 doesn't even have a description xD

    Well I’ll take ghost and quakes descriptions over taskmaster and any new hero’s 4 page list of abilities any day.
  • HendrossHendross Posts: 515 ★★
    I agree they are both complex and convoluted. Conversely, we'd complain if there wasn't enough diversity. There needs to be a better balance
  • KDoggg2017KDoggg2017 Posts: 357 ★★

    DNA3000 said:

    @DNA3000 I thought the same. If it has the broken white circle around the icon it is a passive effect (buff or debuffs) that can't be interacted with (nullified, armor broken, etc) So there are active buffs & debuffs, passive buffs & debuffs plus passive effects from nodes, abilities, etc. (Visions Power Burn is not a debuffs bc it's his unique ability, etc)
    Yet recently someone said that's incorrect,..that there are only Buffs, Debuffs & Passive effects/abilities. What's the correct way to interpret these? @Kabam Zibiit @Kabam Vydious @Kabam Lyra @Kabam Porthos.
    My point was to stay consistent just say in both areas it's an Unstoppable Debuffs or "becomes unstoppable" like Thing. It doesn't matter if IWCap hits into a block if it is a "debuffs" (vs Juggs, UColossus, Champion, etc) bc kinetically charged he nullifies that debuff. Unless he can nullify if Mole Man has up to 5 Monster Mass, but in Frenzy he can't nullify,...which is even more confusing.
    So why even have "debuff'" in the description at all?

    This is exactly what I'm referring to,...it takes "research" & sometimes we get the incorrect answers or it becomes more confusing. Lol

    "Active" is not the opposite of "Passive." "Active" means an effect is "on." This was discussed on the forums a while back: for an example of this terminology in action read the description for "Null's Shadow" for Symbiote Supreme. Null's Shadow is a passive ability (one of SS's three phases) and its description reads: "While active gain a 15% chance to ..."

    Effects can be classified as "Buff" or "Debuff" or "Passive." Theoretically speaking, an effect can have none of these flags: if an effect has none of these flags then it doesn't act like any of these things. Some node effects, for example, do not act as Buffs or Debuffs or Passives when it comes to interacting with other things (that's why some node degen effects don't trigger Hulk Rag's Face Me ability, in spite of the fact that they appear to use the same kind of icon as normal passive effects).

    Incidentally, a Passive Ability and a Passive Effect are two different things. A Passive Ability is always on. In other words, a Passive Ability is always Active. A Passive Effect is an effect modifier that is tagged with the Passive Tag, no more, no less, which determines how other abilities and effects interact with it. To put it another way, "Buff" "Debuff" and "Passive" are effect "colors." It has nothing to do with what the effect does, it is a label the devs put on the effect, like painting it a color. For more information, see Frequently Asked Questions about Combat Mechanics.

    It is possible that the description cannot be made any simpler, because it is saying something precise. I can't say for certain (the description could also be wrong) but if Mole Man works exactly as described then the description cannot be changed to what you want, for this reason. Suppose Mole Man was sitting on a node that made him go Passively Unstoppable at certain times. Now, if you are attacking Mole Man on this node and he has five Monster Mass charges and then the node gives him a passive unstoppable effect, does he trigger Frenzy?

    According to the description, he does. The description doesn't say when he triggers his own Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy, it says *whenever* an Unstoppable effect of any kind activates on Mole Man, he triggers Frenzy.

    If we change the description to be "consistent" like you want it to be, the description in this situation would be wrong. It would say "when he gains an Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy" but when a node gives him a passive unstoppable that's *not* a buff, so he shouldn't trigger Frenzy.

    In other words, the description you are suggesting actually says something different than the description that Mole Man actually has. Because they are not synonymous the devs may be unable to simplify it in the manner you think they should.
    Can I get a TLDR? I feel like I just read one of those essays that loops around and has no meaning.
    It made perfect sense to me. So much so that I voted it "Insightful."
  • KalantakKalantak Posts: 1,089 ★★★
    and if u actuallly look at things fury, ghost, quake.longshot(not in same league but still ) corvus, hyperion, medusa ,are the examples where overly complicated long descriptions are not needed yet these champs break the game every day.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 10,237 Guardian

    DNA3000 said:

    @DNA3000 I thought the same. If it has the broken white circle around the icon it is a passive effect (buff or debuffs) that can't be interacted with (nullified, armor broken, etc) So there are active buffs & debuffs, passive buffs & debuffs plus passive effects from nodes, abilities, etc. (Visions Power Burn is not a debuffs bc it's his unique ability, etc)
    Yet recently someone said that's incorrect,..that there are only Buffs, Debuffs & Passive effects/abilities. What's the correct way to interpret these? @Kabam Zibiit @Kabam Vydious @Kabam Lyra @Kabam Porthos.
    My point was to stay consistent just say in both areas it's an Unstoppable Debuffs or "becomes unstoppable" like Thing. It doesn't matter if IWCap hits into a block if it is a "debuffs" (vs Juggs, UColossus, Champion, etc) bc kinetically charged he nullifies that debuff. Unless he can nullify if Mole Man has up to 5 Monster Mass, but in Frenzy he can't nullify,...which is even more confusing.
    So why even have "debuff'" in the description at all?

    This is exactly what I'm referring to,...it takes "research" & sometimes we get the incorrect answers or it becomes more confusing. Lol

    "Active" is not the opposite of "Passive." "Active" means an effect is "on." This was discussed on the forums a while back: for an example of this terminology in action read the description for "Null's Shadow" for Symbiote Supreme. Null's Shadow is a passive ability (one of SS's three phases) and its description reads: "While active gain a 15% chance to ..."

    Effects can be classified as "Buff" or "Debuff" or "Passive." Theoretically speaking, an effect can have none of these flags: if an effect has none of these flags then it doesn't act like any of these things. Some node effects, for example, do not act as Buffs or Debuffs or Passives when it comes to interacting with other things (that's why some node degen effects don't trigger Hulk Rag's Face Me ability, in spite of the fact that they appear to use the same kind of icon as normal passive effects).

    Incidentally, a Passive Ability and a Passive Effect are two different things. A Passive Ability is always on. In other words, a Passive Ability is always Active. A Passive Effect is an effect modifier that is tagged with the Passive Tag, no more, no less, which determines how other abilities and effects interact with it. To put it another way, "Buff" "Debuff" and "Passive" are effect "colors." It has nothing to do with what the effect does, it is a label the devs put on the effect, like painting it a color. For more information, see Frequently Asked Questions about Combat Mechanics.

    It is possible that the description cannot be made any simpler, because it is saying something precise. I can't say for certain (the description could also be wrong) but if Mole Man works exactly as described then the description cannot be changed to what you want, for this reason. Suppose Mole Man was sitting on a node that made him go Passively Unstoppable at certain times. Now, if you are attacking Mole Man on this node and he has five Monster Mass charges and then the node gives him a passive unstoppable effect, does he trigger Frenzy?

    According to the description, he does. The description doesn't say when he triggers his own Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy, it says *whenever* an Unstoppable effect of any kind activates on Mole Man, he triggers Frenzy.

    If we change the description to be "consistent" like you want it to be, the description in this situation would be wrong. It would say "when he gains an Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy" but when a node gives him a passive unstoppable that's *not* a buff, so he shouldn't trigger Frenzy.

    In other words, the description you are suggesting actually says something different than the description that Mole Man actually has. Because they are not synonymous the devs may be unable to simplify it in the manner you think they should.
    Can I get a TLDR? I feel like I just read one of those essays that loops around and has no meaning.
    The poster talked about "active buffs" and "passive buffs." There's no such thing as a passive buff. The explanation cannot be reduced any shorter than I already did. Read the FAQ for more info.

    Mole Man's description says when he triggers an Unstoppable effect he gain Frenzy (in that circumstance). The OP asked why it can't just say when he triggers an Unstoppable *Buff* he gains Frenzy. And the reason may be because it is necessary: if Mole Man gains frenzy on all forms of Unstoppable effects, not just his own buffs, then the description is accurate and can't be changed.
  • KeepinItRealKeepinItReal Posts: 193
    edited March 20
    @DNA3000 Thanks for sharing that link. Will check it out later, looks like u took time to go into great detail.
    First, this post is about asking the MCOCommunity if they think recent champ descriptions have become too complex or time consuming.
  • phillgreenphillgreen Posts: 1,938 ★★★
    I don't normally read them until they are in my roster, given that's usually 12 months after release the forums have already deciphered the verbose description into something useful for regular folk.
  • KeepinItRealKeepinItReal Posts: 193
    edited March 20
    @DNA3000 let me try to clarify regarding MMs description. I'm not suggesting it be changed to what I want or that it's not precise. But it def could be simplified bc it's precisely contradictive. Lol
    1) Under "Monster Mass: Passive" section it says blocking basic attacks grants MM an unstoppable "buff". Yet under "Frenzy" it says when activating an unstoppable "effect" it activates Frenzy. He also gets Frenzy when at Max Monster Mass.
    2) IWCap can "nullify" unstoppable "buffs" when kinetically charged, but not "effects" or in Things description "becomes unstoppable". This is the reason Kabam says it doesn't work vs Thing", bc it's not a "buff" to "nullify".
    3) According to the description IWCap should be able to "nullify" MMs unstoppable"buff", right? Currently in gameplay he can not. Now frenzy could activate since he still activates his buff" that is "nullified". Or with any node that activates an Unstopp "effect"
    4) Therefore either the description should say MMs unstoppable is an "effect" or "becomes unstoppable" in both sections, NOT "buff". Or he's bugged in game & IWCap should "nullify" his unstoppable "buff", right?

    This is exactly what I'm asking about in my post. Should it cost ANY of us this much time deciphering, researching, clarifying, explaining or checking reddit, YT videos & forums to clearly understand the descriptions interacting with gameplay when we have a "wait, what tf just happened" moment? Especially in AWs where the various nodes & more recent D.Tactics add more complexity which could cost us revives, potions, glory, units &/or $$$.

    Re-wrote this bc my initial response had to be "reviewed" by Kabam,...which now has cost me more time in forums instead of playing MCOC. Ugh
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 10,237 Guardian

    Meh. Playstyles using and against the champ aren’t that complicated, so you really only have to read it once.

    As for your question, it’s an unstoppable buff, not a passive (as far as I know, since it triggers MD), but Cap IW probably won’t work since it triggers on block and Cap has to land a hit to nullify unstoppable

    As a practical matter, CapIW can probably nullify Mole Man's unstoppable in theory but in practice this is difficult to achieve. To trigger the Unstoppable you have to hit into block, and Cap doesn't nullify unstoppable buffs when you hit into block. So that hit itself triggers unstoppable but cannot nullify the unstoppable. The Unstoppable buff lasts for only 0.85 seconds, so within that very tiny window Cap could nullify the buff but only if he somehow lands an unblocked hit in that window. If Mole Man counterattacks instantly that's impossible. If Mole Man doesn't counterattack he'll almost certainly still be in the block. Mole Man has to decide not to attack but also not hold block while Cap has to launch two attacks back to back into the block for you to see Cap nullify the first unstoppable without simultaneously triggering another unstoppable.

    I actually tried to make this happen, and I gave up because I think this requires a one in a thousand or maybe one in a million AI glitch.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 10,237 Guardian

    3) According to the description IWCap should be able to "nullify" MMs unstoppable"buff", right? Currently in gameplay he can not.

    See above. I believe CapIW can nullify Mole Man's unstoppable buff, but because it only lasts a fraction of a second and CapIW has to land an unblocked hit in that tiny window, it is something extremely difficult to see. CapIW's attack has to actually land to nullify Unstoppable buffs: I tested this against RoL Juggernaut, and I only nullified him on unblocked hits. When Juggernaut was blocking and unstoppable CapIW did not nullify his unstoppable on the blocked hits.

    So basically you can probably nullify Mole Man's unstoppable buff, but its not going to stick around long enough for you to try.
  • lowlevelplayerlowlevelplayer Posts: 1,948 ★★★★

    DNA3000 said:

    @DNA3000 I thought the same. If it has the broken white circle around the icon it is a passive effect (buff or debuffs) that can't be interacted with (nullified, armor broken, etc) So there are active buffs & debuffs, passive buffs & debuffs plus passive effects from nodes, abilities, etc. (Visions Power Burn is not a debuffs bc it's his unique ability, etc)
    Yet recently someone said that's incorrect,..that there are only Buffs, Debuffs & Passive effects/abilities. What's the correct way to interpret these? @Kabam Zibiit @Kabam Vydious @Kabam Lyra @Kabam Porthos.
    My point was to stay consistent just say in both areas it's an Unstoppable Debuffs or "becomes unstoppable" like Thing. It doesn't matter if IWCap hits into a block if it is a "debuffs" (vs Juggs, UColossus, Champion, etc) bc kinetically charged he nullifies that debuff. Unless he can nullify if Mole Man has up to 5 Monster Mass, but in Frenzy he can't nullify,...which is even more confusing.
    So why even have "debuff'" in the description at all?

    This is exactly what I'm referring to,...it takes "research" & sometimes we get the incorrect answers or it becomes more confusing. Lol

    "Active" is not the opposite of "Passive." "Active" means an effect is "on." This was discussed on the forums a while back: for an example of this terminology in action read the description for "Null's Shadow" for Symbiote Supreme. Null's Shadow is a passive ability (one of SS's three phases) and its description reads: "While active gain a 15% chance to ..."

    Effects can be classified as "Buff" or "Debuff" or "Passive." Theoretically speaking, an effect can have none of these flags: if an effect has none of these flags then it doesn't act like any of these things. Some node effects, for example, do not act as Buffs or Debuffs or Passives when it comes to interacting with other things (that's why some node degen effects don't trigger Hulk Rag's Face Me ability, in spite of the fact that they appear to use the same kind of icon as normal passive effects).

    Incidentally, a Passive Ability and a Passive Effect are two different things. A Passive Ability is always on. In other words, a Passive Ability is always Active. A Passive Effect is an effect modifier that is tagged with the Passive Tag, no more, no less, which determines how other abilities and effects interact with it. To put it another way, "Buff" "Debuff" and "Passive" are effect "colors." It has nothing to do with what the effect does, it is a label the devs put on the effect, like painting it a color. For more information, see Frequently Asked Questions about Combat Mechanics.

    It is possible that the description cannot be made any simpler, because it is saying something precise. I can't say for certain (the description could also be wrong) but if Mole Man works exactly as described then the description cannot be changed to what you want, for this reason. Suppose Mole Man was sitting on a node that made him go Passively Unstoppable at certain times. Now, if you are attacking Mole Man on this node and he has five Monster Mass charges and then the node gives him a passive unstoppable effect, does he trigger Frenzy?

    According to the description, he does. The description doesn't say when he triggers his own Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy, it says *whenever* an Unstoppable effect of any kind activates on Mole Man, he triggers Frenzy.

    If we change the description to be "consistent" like you want it to be, the description in this situation would be wrong. It would say "when he gains an Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy" but when a node gives him a passive unstoppable that's *not* a buff, so he shouldn't trigger Frenzy.

    In other words, the description you are suggesting actually says something different than the description that Mole Man actually has. Because they are not synonymous the devs may be unable to simplify it in the manner you think they should.
    Can I get a TLDR? I feel like I just read one of those essays that loops around and has no meaning.
    It made perfect sense to me. So much so that I voted it "Insightful."
    OK. But weird thing, you vote on your own posts?? LOL
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 10,237 Guardian

    DNA3000 said:

    @DNA3000 I thought the same. If it has the broken white circle around the icon it is a passive effect (buff or debuffs) that can't be interacted with (nullified, armor broken, etc) So there are active buffs & debuffs, passive buffs & debuffs plus passive effects from nodes, abilities, etc. (Visions Power Burn is not a debuffs bc it's his unique ability, etc)
    Yet recently someone said that's incorrect,..that there are only Buffs, Debuffs & Passive effects/abilities. What's the correct way to interpret these? @Kabam Zibiit @Kabam Vydious @Kabam Lyra @Kabam Porthos.
    My point was to stay consistent just say in both areas it's an Unstoppable Debuffs or "becomes unstoppable" like Thing. It doesn't matter if IWCap hits into a block if it is a "debuffs" (vs Juggs, UColossus, Champion, etc) bc kinetically charged he nullifies that debuff. Unless he can nullify if Mole Man has up to 5 Monster Mass, but in Frenzy he can't nullify,...which is even more confusing.
    So why even have "debuff'" in the description at all?

    This is exactly what I'm referring to,...it takes "research" & sometimes we get the incorrect answers or it becomes more confusing. Lol

    "Active" is not the opposite of "Passive." "Active" means an effect is "on." This was discussed on the forums a while back: for an example of this terminology in action read the description for "Null's Shadow" for Symbiote Supreme. Null's Shadow is a passive ability (one of SS's three phases) and its description reads: "While active gain a 15% chance to ..."

    Effects can be classified as "Buff" or "Debuff" or "Passive." Theoretically speaking, an effect can have none of these flags: if an effect has none of these flags then it doesn't act like any of these things. Some node effects, for example, do not act as Buffs or Debuffs or Passives when it comes to interacting with other things (that's why some node degen effects don't trigger Hulk Rag's Face Me ability, in spite of the fact that they appear to use the same kind of icon as normal passive effects).

    Incidentally, a Passive Ability and a Passive Effect are two different things. A Passive Ability is always on. In other words, a Passive Ability is always Active. A Passive Effect is an effect modifier that is tagged with the Passive Tag, no more, no less, which determines how other abilities and effects interact with it. To put it another way, "Buff" "Debuff" and "Passive" are effect "colors." It has nothing to do with what the effect does, it is a label the devs put on the effect, like painting it a color. For more information, see Frequently Asked Questions about Combat Mechanics.

    It is possible that the description cannot be made any simpler, because it is saying something precise. I can't say for certain (the description could also be wrong) but if Mole Man works exactly as described then the description cannot be changed to what you want, for this reason. Suppose Mole Man was sitting on a node that made him go Passively Unstoppable at certain times. Now, if you are attacking Mole Man on this node and he has five Monster Mass charges and then the node gives him a passive unstoppable effect, does he trigger Frenzy?

    According to the description, he does. The description doesn't say when he triggers his own Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy, it says *whenever* an Unstoppable effect of any kind activates on Mole Man, he triggers Frenzy.

    If we change the description to be "consistent" like you want it to be, the description in this situation would be wrong. It would say "when he gains an Unstoppable Buff he triggers Frenzy" but when a node gives him a passive unstoppable that's *not* a buff, so he shouldn't trigger Frenzy.

    In other words, the description you are suggesting actually says something different than the description that Mole Man actually has. Because they are not synonymous the devs may be unable to simplify it in the manner you think they should.
    Can I get a TLDR? I feel like I just read one of those essays that loops around and has no meaning.
    It made perfect sense to me. So much so that I voted it "Insightful."
    OK. But weird thing, you vote on your own posts?? LOL
    You can't flag your own posts. Try it.
  • sest22sest22 Posts: 832 ★★
    I would like to add the probability that the icons for buffs or debuffs are included in the character description. It seems to me that it would facilitate a little understanding when it comes to using the characters, and even more so to the new characters with so much reading.
  • KeepinItRealKeepinItReal Posts: 193
    edited March 21
    DNA3000 said:

    3) According to the description IWCap should be able to "nullify" MMs unstoppable"buff", right? Currently in gameplay he can not.

    See above. I believe CapIW can nullify Mole Man's unstoppable buff, but because it only lasts a fraction of a second and CapIW has to land an unblocked hit in that tiny window, it is something extremely difficult to see. CapIW's attack has to actually land to nullify Unstoppable buffs: I tested this against RoL Juggernaut, and I only nullified him on unblocked hits. When Juggernaut was blocking and unstoppable CapIW did not nullify his unstoppable on the blocked hits.

    So basically you can probably nullify Mole Man's unstoppable buff, but its not going to stick around long enough for you to try.
    At least u tried to make this happen & gave up like me too. Lol I get what ur saying & agree. My point is to avoid confusion if they just wrote under Monster Mass: Passive section "blocking basic attacks grants an unstoppable "effect" or "becomes unstoppable" like Thing. It would be precisely clear IWCap has no chance to "nullify" it bc it's not a "debuff". It's a simple thing,...then nobody like us would bother taking time to see if it works. Ha I can't think of any situation where it needs to be a "buff" bc in order to "nullify or stagger it" u would have to hit into the block. Magik S1&3, Voodoo S1, etc wouldn't nullify bc it doesn't activate if hitting block. Only thing I can think of is MStars Unblock S2, but that's not hitting his block either. Maybe SymS or Hoods stagger causes it to be removed when hitting his block? Doesn't seem likely they'd intend to make that rare exception. If so, they could've simply say "his unstoppable buff can be nullified by stagger when hitting his block". Like other exceptions are: (Terrax can't be power controlled by a #robot. Elsa, can be bled by a mutant & not take Degen damage, etc.)

    My point is it can take many players lots of time deciphering interactions because of all these things: passive abilities &/or effects, active buffs or debuffs interactions. These also have or what can be interpreted as exceptions. (Like GHulks Face me not activating vs all Passive DOTs, Corvus not taking damage from bleed debuffs while glaive immunity is active but still taking damage from MStar & many more.)
    The fact u posted a link to the forum u created about explaining Combat Mechanics in great detail. (Sincere thanks) Which also has multiple links, one being Kabams article on Battle Status Effects is a prime example of the complexity & time it can takes. That's only regarding Active permanent or temporary Buffs, Debuffs & Passive effects or abilities. It's not about being right or wrong regarding MMs description. You seem to invest alot of time helping others in Forums. So do u agree or disagree with what I was asking others in my initial post. Are the descriptions becoming too complex or time consuming?


  • te_dua_shumte_dua_shum Posts: 307
    @DNA3000 i've read both your comment here and the FAQ thread, but there's a thing that i don't understand: you said that "Passive" is different from "Debuff" and that doesn't exist something like a "Passive Debuff" because they are two different categories; Ebony Maw, though, in his ability states that he should put on the opponent a "Passive Falter", with the word "Passive" being with a capital letter (i've checked the spotlight for the english version) but the Falter becomes a debuff when it's placed. does this means that a passive effect can also be considered a debuff? how can i distinguish when a passive effect is actually passive and when it is a debuff?
  • FeuerschwerFeuerschwer Posts: 45
    I think that one is just an error, since it functions as a debuff. Its either a text error or incorrectly flagged as a debuff.
    With regards to MM’s unstoppable, it is a buff, it’s just such a short duration most nullify effects are hard to land before it expires. But since it’s a buff, Fate Seal (for example) would prevent it from activating.
  • WedgemonsterWedgemonster Posts: 251 ★★
    edited March 21
    To me, there was a sweet spot around 2017-2018. Champ abilities before that were often so simple that it wasn’t as fun. Champ abilities after that were often so complex that it becomes irritating. I want there to be enough intricacy that there’s strategizing involved, but I also don’t want to spend a half hour reading a description trying to understand everything that’s happening. So I agree, it would be nice to tone it down a little.
  • KeepinItRealKeepinItReal Posts: 193

    I think that one is just an error, since it functions as a debuff. Its either a text error or incorrectly flagged as a debuff.
    With regards to MM’s unstoppable, it is a buff, it’s just such a short duration most nullify effects are hard to land before it expires. But since it’s a buff, Fate Seal (for example) would prevent it from activating.

    If E.Maw Falter is possibly an "error" doesn't that mean it's be simpler to change the description to match the gameplay,...can u shrugg it off? Not disagreeing with ya, that's just another example of time spent knowing for certain. Like MM, if the only exception is stagger or fate seal,..why not simply put those exceptions like others have. Using unstoppable "buff" & "effect" makes it confusing to me.
  • KeepinItRealKeepinItReal Posts: 193

    To me, there was a sweet spot around 2017-2018. Champ abilities before that were often so simple that it wasn’t as fun. Champ abilities after that were often so complex that it becomes irritating. I want there to be enough intricacy that there’s strategizing involved, but I also don’t want to spend a half hour reading a description trying to understand everything that’s happening. So I agree, it would be nice to tone it down a little.

    @Wedgemonster I agree. Didn't think about the before 2017. Less abilities & interactions made it simpler. Maybe that's the real issue bc Kabam has added alot of unique abilities, etc. For me, more recently it feels like a "research" project. Lol Especially when trying to be certain so when I share with others in my alliance they don't go into AQ/AW & also have a "wait what tf just happened" moment. :neutral:
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