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Do you agree with kabam John?

2

Comments

  • The_Sentry06The_Sentry06 Posts: 4,915 ★★★★★
    Grean said:

    Tbh if the utility is the same at r2 than r3, why not rank up a damage champ?

    Because damage champs already have amazing damage and utility heavy champions are offset by not as great damage. Rank up utility heavy champions to boost their damage considerably.
  • Lvernon15Lvernon15 Posts: 10,670 ★★★★★

    Lvernon15 said:

    Depends on the method of damage, someone like mags or aegon isn’t going to gain as much benefit as someone like Corvus or cmm due to their methods of damage, ramp vs burst

    Just to add, not in terms of damage, but I'd argue Mags is one champ who really really benefits from being r3. And surprisingly this is because of damage through block. Magneto has his 50% perfect block, which is awesome don't get me wrong. But in longer content, where block damage can take it's toll, that extra health from being r3 can be the difference between life and death. Just take someone like IMIW in abyss. If you take an r5 Mags into that fight, itll be tough to get him down just due to the block damage, you will rarely run out of abyss charges with Mags and his low hit count style. But with the r3 you last longer, and do a hell of a lot more damage
    Oh yeah, I’m not saying don’t r3 magneto, he’s still an absolute beast and benefits from the rankup, but as you say it’s much more in the sustainability category that he benefits rather than damage
  • zeezee57zeezee57 Posts: 2,908 ★★★★★
    Honestly damage or utility focused if you use the champ a lot they're worth the rank up. More often than not someone considered for R3 will have some of both, outside of domino there aren't many top tier champs that are pure damage dealers lacking in utility. Even corvus (one of my R3s) is packed with utility to go along with the damage.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 12,077 Guardian
    DrZola said:

    DNA3000 said:

    xNig said:

    I agree with Kabam John.

    Utility decides whether you CAN take the fight. Damage decides how long you take.

    Duration has no bearing if a champ cannot take the fight.

    It depends on how you define "utility" but my definition mirrors this one: to me utility is a measure of how broadly useful a champion is. At the moment most people doing rank 3 rankups have very few, if any rank 3s. When you only have a few, you need to get the most bang for buck, and every r3 has to be as widely useful as possible, in my opinion.
    Right.

    But...is Magneto the best example of damage over utility?

    Magnetized is a pretty darn useful utility, before you add things like shock, energy damage and bleed resistance.

    If we are talking Hit-Monkey versus someone like Mysterio, that’s probably a better comparison. I’m more than a little surprised Magneto was the example used.

    Dr. Zola
    Short answer to your question is: no. By my definition of utility, Magneto has huge utility value. But I understand that by a more old-school definition of utility - namely possessing some of the big "utility abilities" like power control - (which was also my definition of utility say four years ago) Magneto isn't a traditional utility powerhouse.

    But more importantly, I don't really consider "damage" to be independent of utility. If your champ's damage is zero, he has zero utility because he can't win any fights. Meanwhile a champ that deals a billion unavoidable damage at the start of every fight has infinite utility, because it can do every fight.

    Damage has to be part of the equation. You don't necessarily need high damage to have strong utility, but you still have to win the fight. I used King Groot for some of the Variant paths. His damage is pathetic. But for the fights I used him in he had very strong utility because he could basically win every fight while more or less keeping full health. So while he was slow, he was safe to run. He didn't make unwinnable fights winnable, he made winnable fights cheap. But that lack of damage means there's tons of fights where I wouldn't use him in, because his slow damage output makes fights longer, and there are a lot of fights that get progressively more dangerous the longer they last, which makes him unsuitable.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 26,879 ★★★★★
    People focus way too much on big yellow numbers. Agree.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 3,701 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DrZola said:

    DNA3000 said:

    xNig said:

    I agree with Kabam John.

    Utility decides whether you CAN take the fight. Damage decides how long you take.

    Duration has no bearing if a champ cannot take the fight.

    It depends on how you define "utility" but my definition mirrors this one: to me utility is a measure of how broadly useful a champion is. At the moment most people doing rank 3 rankups have very few, if any rank 3s. When you only have a few, you need to get the most bang for buck, and every r3 has to be as widely useful as possible, in my opinion.
    Right.

    But...is Magneto the best example of damage over utility?

    Magnetized is a pretty darn useful utility, before you add things like shock, energy damage and bleed resistance.

    If we are talking Hit-Monkey versus someone like Mysterio, that’s probably a better comparison. I’m more than a little surprised Magneto was the example used.

    Dr. Zola
    Short answer to your question is: no. By my definition of utility, Magneto has huge utility value. But I understand that by a more old-school definition of utility - namely possessing some of the big "utility abilities" like power control - (which was also my definition of utility say four years ago) Magneto isn't a traditional utility powerhouse.

    But more importantly, I don't really consider "damage" to be independent of utility. If your champ's damage is zero, he has zero utility because he can't win any fights. Meanwhile a champ that deals a billion unavoidable damage at the start of every fight has infinite utility, because it can do every fight.

    Damage has to be part of the equation. You don't necessarily need high damage to have strong utility, but you still have to win the fight. I used King Groot for some of the Variant paths. His damage is pathetic. But for the fights I used him in he had very strong utility because he could basically win every fight while more or less keeping full health. So while he was slow, he was safe to run. He didn't make unwinnable fights winnable, he made winnable fights cheap. But that lack of damage means there's tons of fights where I wouldn't use him in, because his slow damage output makes fights longer, and there are a lot of fights that get progressively more dangerous the longer they last, which makes him unsuitable.
    Right, I have a 6* unduped cosmic ghost rider. I can take him, fully boosted with a cosmic power boost, full synergies I could take down 6.2 champion boss.

    He has no inherent utility that makes him do that fight except for pure damage to overcome the fight. Damage is part of utility
  • UnitmanUnitman Posts: 41
    Once you hit thronebuster it appears tier 5 class cats are easier to get and r3's are much more common.

    I'd argue that r3'ing a champ for utility is a bad idea because of the variance of utility needed.

    I really enjoyed John's insights and thought it was a fantastic stream all and all.
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 4,516 ★★★★★
    DNA3000 said:

    DrZola said:

    DNA3000 said:

    xNig said:

    I agree with Kabam John.

    Utility decides whether you CAN take the fight. Damage decides how long you take.

    Duration has no bearing if a champ cannot take the fight.

    It depends on how you define "utility" but my definition mirrors this one: to me utility is a measure of how broadly useful a champion is. At the moment most people doing rank 3 rankups have very few, if any rank 3s. When you only have a few, you need to get the most bang for buck, and every r3 has to be as widely useful as possible, in my opinion.
    Right.

    But...is Magneto the best example of damage over utility?

    Magnetized is a pretty darn useful utility, before you add things like shock, energy damage and bleed resistance.

    If we are talking Hit-Monkey versus someone like Mysterio, that’s probably a better comparison. I’m more than a little surprised Magneto was the example used.

    Dr. Zola
    Short answer to your question is: no. By my definition of utility, Magneto has huge utility value. But I understand that by a more old-school definition of utility - namely possessing some of the big "utility abilities" like power control - (which was also my definition of utility say four years ago) Magneto isn't a traditional utility powerhouse.

    But more importantly, I don't really consider "damage" to be independent of utility. If your champ's damage is zero, he has zero utility because he can't win any fights. Meanwhile a champ that deals a billion unavoidable damage at the start of every fight has infinite utility, because it can do every fight.

    Damage has to be part of the equation. You don't necessarily need high damage to have strong utility, but you still have to win the fight. I used King Groot for some of the Variant paths. His damage is pathetic. But for the fights I used him in he had very strong utility because he could basically win every fight while more or less keeping full health. So while he was slow, he was safe to run. He didn't make unwinnable fights winnable, he made winnable fights cheap. But that lack of damage means there's tons of fights where I wouldn't use him in, because his slow damage output makes fights longer, and there are a lot of fights that get progressively more dangerous the longer they last, which makes him unsuitable.
    Which begs the question...what definition of utility do game team members like Kabam John use?

    Dr. Zola
  • RookiieRookiie Posts: 2,766 ★★★★★
    DrZola said:

    DNA3000 said:

    DrZola said:

    DNA3000 said:

    xNig said:

    I agree with Kabam John.

    Utility decides whether you CAN take the fight. Damage decides how long you take.

    Duration has no bearing if a champ cannot take the fight.

    It depends on how you define "utility" but my definition mirrors this one: to me utility is a measure of how broadly useful a champion is. At the moment most people doing rank 3 rankups have very few, if any rank 3s. When you only have a few, you need to get the most bang for buck, and every r3 has to be as widely useful as possible, in my opinion.
    Right.

    But...is Magneto the best example of damage over utility?

    Magnetized is a pretty darn useful utility, before you add things like shock, energy damage and bleed resistance.

    If we are talking Hit-Monkey versus someone like Mysterio, that’s probably a better comparison. I’m more than a little surprised Magneto was the example used.

    Dr. Zola
    Short answer to your question is: no. By my definition of utility, Magneto has huge utility value. But I understand that by a more old-school definition of utility - namely possessing some of the big "utility abilities" like power control - (which was also my definition of utility say four years ago) Magneto isn't a traditional utility powerhouse.

    But more importantly, I don't really consider "damage" to be independent of utility. If your champ's damage is zero, he has zero utility because he can't win any fights. Meanwhile a champ that deals a billion unavoidable damage at the start of every fight has infinite utility, because it can do every fight.

    Damage has to be part of the equation. You don't necessarily need high damage to have strong utility, but you still have to win the fight. I used King Groot for some of the Variant paths. His damage is pathetic. But for the fights I used him in he had very strong utility because he could basically win every fight while more or less keeping full health. So while he was slow, he was safe to run. He didn't make unwinnable fights winnable, he made winnable fights cheap. But that lack of damage means there's tons of fights where I wouldn't use him in, because his slow damage output makes fights longer, and there are a lot of fights that get progressively more dangerous the longer they last, which makes him unsuitable.
    Which begs the question...what definition of utility do game team members like Kabam John use?

    Dr. Zola
    His favourite champion is Doctor Octopus, if that is of any insight to you 🐙
  • CorkscrewCorkscrew Posts: 150
    You need a utility champ to make the fight viable i.e. bypass something on the node or the defender. However, if you cannot a) do enough damage to close out the fight or b) survive long enough then it could ultimately be the same outcome as a high damage dealer that doesn't have the required utility. You throwing units at a long protracted fight.

    I believe his comment was in the context of attack values and damage dealt. Essentially bringing up the damage of a utility champ to that of a rank lower damage dealer. Beyond that, I would also look at how "squishy" a champ is. Stealthy and sparky are good examples. They can do a lot of damage, but aren't going to sustain much block damage. Having the extra health makes sense for their survivability.

    I don't believe he meant it as a hard and fast rule. There is obviously nuance and context, in the end ranking up "good" champs will save you units/pots.
  • TrashyPandaTrashyPanda Posts: 486 ★★★
    It depends on whether it's utility you use every day or utility you use for the occasional lane, and whether or not that utility has pillows for hands.

    R3 Dorm? Nah. R3 Ibom? Absolutely. Mr. Fan? Meh. Moleman? Right-on.
  • Haji_SaabHaji_Saab Posts: 5,231 ★★★★★
    edited February 21
    You guys are talking as if you get to pick your r3 😂

    I hardly get a good 6* and matching t5cc, so they go to r3 if that miracle ever happens
  • PulyamanPulyaman Posts: 1,210 ★★★★

    People focus way too much on big yellow numbers. Agree.

    That's a very generic statement. That may have been true for previous acts, but with act 6 and beyond, you need utility with damage. People get excited with big yellow numbers, but not always pick the R3 based on damage alone. Can a R1 Doc oc do what R3 Doc oc does? Yes, he can power lock and power steal just as well. Can the same be said for Corvus or Aegon? No, they are damage dependent champs and need the higher attack that the higher rank gives. His logic is flawed in my opinion.
  • Ebony_NawEbony_Naw Posts: 1,400 ★★★★★

    I actually agree with Kabam John, I think that having someone like Ghost or Cosmic Ghost Rider at rank 2 is enough. Not as in, don't rank them up they're good enough. But more like they are so incredible that even at rank 2 they are very much viable for end game content. But take someone like SpiderGwen. She is definitely a useful champion, with a really great set of abilities and utilities. But her damage isn't the absolute best. I'm not saying it's bad damage, it's above average, but would you bring an r2 SpiderGwen over an r2 ghost?

    I'm also not saying you'd bring an r3 Spidergwen over ghost, but it makes SpiderGwen actually way more viable for endgame content when you take her r2 to r3, compared to the difference it makes for an r2 to r3 ghost.

    I for one had a choice similar a few months ago. I had an unduped Nick Fury and a duped falcon. I could take one to r3, i was already thronebreaker so time wasn't an issue. I could take one of them up, or wait and see if I duped Nick. At the time Abyss wasn't 100%, at 4 paths to go, but i didnt have aegon so that was a roadblock for me.

    I decided to take up Falcon, purely because I knew Nick was better when awakened, and if I didn't rank Falcon now, I probably wouldn't for ages. And to use Falcon in endgame, sure he didnt need to be r3, but if I awakened Nick, why would i use falcon, if not for him being r3?

    So i took up Falcon and never regretted it once, i already loved his playstyle, damage and utility but with the extra damage and health of an r3 it was amazing.

    Side note: I pulled Aegon pretty much two days later, allowing me to 100% Abyss within the month and I used the generic on Nick, didn't pull skill from the t5cc but I still use Nick when i need him, because he's one of those champions that is incredible at r2. I would have used Falcon at r2, but at r3 he's one of my most used champions.

    This was essentially my argument for a few rank up choices (warlock, KM, and falcon). The utility champ needs the damage boost more. I've ranked up damage dealers too, but the utility guys benefit from it that much more.

    There are reasons to rank up the damage guys, but I definitely agree with the sentiment behind this thread overall
  • Sw0rdMasterSw0rdMaster Posts: 817 ★★★
    Riptide said:

    In Bgs video where he had 8 people talk about rank ups, kabam John made some interesting points.

    He said that it is better to take a champ with better utility but less damage to R3, then someone likes mags who has crazy damage.

    Start the debate!

    Mags has no utility? 🤔

    He has made so many tough fights easy for me.
  • MauledMauled Posts: 2,595 ★★★★★
    He’s not saying it’s better to rank up a champion that deals less damage, he’s saying that ranking up a champ with lower damage will have more impact on that champion’s playability than it would if you did a high damage champ. I can see his argument, it allows a more niche rank up to have a position in your team even when they’re not being utilised in their perfect conditions.
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 26,879 ★★★★★
    Pulyaman said:

    People focus way too much on big yellow numbers. Agree.

    That's a very generic statement. That may have been true for previous acts, but with act 6 and beyond, you need utility with damage. People get excited with big yellow numbers, but not always pick the R3 based on damage alone. Can a R1 Doc oc do what R3 Doc oc does? Yes, he can power lock and power steal just as well. Can the same be said for Corvus or Aegon? No, they are damage dependent champs and need the higher attack that the higher rank gives. His logic is flawed in my opinion.
    Unfortunately, it's a genetic statement because the majority are still too quick to judge based on overt Damage. Take the typical test for example. People take a Champ into ROL and count how many hits to take down WS. Only there are many Champs that do insane Damage after building up, and many people don't notice value until much later. Tigra was one I loved, and people caught on later. There has been a definite shift of focus and people are looking at utility more, but overall there's still too much focus on Damage dealers. A well-rounded Roster needs a bit of everything.
  • AleorAleor Posts: 2,570 ★★★★
    Disagree.
    Say your utility champ deals D damage. After rank up he'd deal 1.2D damage. Now you look at your "damage dealer" champ, who deals 5D damage. After rank up he'd deal 6D damage. So he benefits more. Simple math. If 1D is not enough for a fight, you most likely will struggle just as much with 1.2D damage
  • Horror_punkHorror_punk Posts: 911 ★★★
    So
    Vision Aou Duped deserves a Rank 3 6* or not ??
    Can pump 100 signatures in him at the moment
  • Sw0rdMasterSw0rdMaster Posts: 817 ★★★
    Mauled said:

    He’s not saying it’s better to rank up a champion that deals less damage, he’s saying that ranking up a champ with lower damage will have more impact on that champion’s playability than it would if you did a high damage champ. I can see his argument, it allows a more niche rank up to have a position in your team even when they’re not being utilised in their perfect conditions.

    Hmm but ranking up a high damage champ would make their damage even higher.

    Eg. If you take someone that can bench 50kg and double his strength, sure he can now do 100kg, but if you take someone that can do 100kg and double it, then he can now do 200kg. Isn't that better?
  • Sw0rdMasterSw0rdMaster Posts: 817 ★★★

    Here’s the thing. I don’t think OP has explained Johns view well enough



    If you go to 11.53, he begins talking about Nick and how since he already has massive damage it’s not as much of a noticeable difference between R2 and R3.

    He says that characters who have loads of damage are already good enough at r2 to be useful, all you’re getting is more damage. But someone with a load of utility, but maybe less damage than ghost, may have their usefulness increased MUCH more than ghost would.

    He does not mean that you should rank up your Dormamu because he has nice utility and utter awful damage. That’s not the sort of champion he is talking about here. He literally a second later used Falcon as an example. And if you’ve seen any gameplay of falcon, you know he has awesome damage. Way beyond someone like vision or dormamu.

    It’s about having that extra bit of damage as an r3 to help them keep up with the likes of Ghost.

    If you have an r2 ghost and an r2 falcon, you’d likely use ghost more. If you can only rank up one (I know they’re not the same class but bear with it’s just a hypothetical), and you choose Ghost, with an r3 ghost and an r2 falcon, you’re still gonna find ghost more useful. And you’ll use her more, but ghost can largely do all the fights the same as an r3 or an r2.

    What John is saying is, go for falcon, because he’s still awesome, but he benefits a lot more from being r3 than ghost does.

    Plucking random numbers out of the air to make a point, let’s say falcon gets a 40% benefit from being r3 in terms of usability, his higher health and more damage means his utility is more usable. Ghost however
    gets a 20% benefit, because her being r3 doesn’t mean you use her that much more than before.

    The sort of champions John is talking about are not Dormmamu, vision, king groot etc. He means those like Warlock, Falcon, Killmonger, Doc Oc.

    Champions who don’t have those huge yellow numbers, they have very good damage already sure, but they aren’t game breaking like CGR, Ghost etc.

    I see what you are saying, but the issue i see is, atm alot of players struggle with resources to R3 a champ and taking your ghost vs falcon example ... It's going to be a tough call to rank 3 Falcon over Ghost.
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 3,701 ★★★★★

    Here’s the thing. I don’t think OP has explained Johns view well enough



    If you go to 11.53, he begins talking about Nick and how since he already has massive damage it’s not as much of a noticeable difference between R2 and R3.

    He says that characters who have loads of damage are already good enough at r2 to be useful, all you’re getting is more damage. But someone with a load of utility, but maybe less damage than ghost, may have their usefulness increased MUCH more than ghost would.

    He does not mean that you should rank up your Dormamu because he has nice utility and utter awful damage. That’s not the sort of champion he is talking about here. He literally a second later used Falcon as an example. And if you’ve seen any gameplay of falcon, you know he has awesome damage. Way beyond someone like vision or dormamu.

    It’s about having that extra bit of damage as an r3 to help them keep up with the likes of Ghost.

    If you have an r2 ghost and an r2 falcon, you’d likely use ghost more. If you can only rank up one (I know they’re not the same class but bear with it’s just a hypothetical), and you choose Ghost, with an r3 ghost and an r2 falcon, you’re still gonna find ghost more useful. And you’ll use her more, but ghost can largely do all the fights the same as an r3 or an r2.

    What John is saying is, go for falcon, because he’s still awesome, but he benefits a lot more from being r3 than ghost does.

    Plucking random numbers out of the air to make a point, let’s say falcon gets a 40% benefit from being r3 in terms of usability, his higher health and more damage means his utility is more usable. Ghost however
    gets a 20% benefit, because her being r3 doesn’t mean you use her that much more than before.

    The sort of champions John is talking about are not Dormmamu, vision, king groot etc. He means those like Warlock, Falcon, Killmonger, Doc Oc.

    Champions who don’t have those huge yellow numbers, they have very good damage already sure, but they aren’t game breaking like CGR, Ghost etc.

    I see what you are saying, but the issue i see is, atm alot of players struggle with resources to R3 a champ and taking your ghost vs falcon example ... It's going to be a tough call to rank 3 Falcon over Ghost.

    I get that, and I don’t necessarily agree with time after time going for the lesser damage champ. I think it depends on your skill, what you want to do in the game, where you are etc.

    And let’s just switch Ghost for Nick fury for example. So they’re the same class.

    I was in a similar situation to that, I made a post on it earlier in the thread I’m not sure if you saw. But I had an unduped Nick and duped falcon and I went with falcon, knowing that Nick was better. I duped Nick a few weeks later and was so glad I went for falcon first, because now I can use both falcon and Nick, because the difference between them as Nick r3 and falcon r2 is huge, but there’s much less of a difference when falcon is r3 and Nick is r2.

    What I’m saying is, with falcon at r3 and Nick at r2. My roster has a lot less holes, than Nick at r3 and falcon at r2. Because I’d use Nick either way
  • AleorAleor Posts: 2,570 ★★★★
    @BitterSteel
    Falcon already has ok damage in evade fights. Where else would you use him? Honestly, I don't know. Ghost can be used for so many fights, and she also can deal with evade fights easily. Choosing falcon over ghost doesn't really make scene.
    Same for Nick actually imo. Say you have both r3. There are not many fights to use falcon over furry, and it's not like one rank up bumps his damage a lot. You can probably use even a small boost once you need falcon, those are always expiring anyway
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 3,701 ★★★★★
    Aleor said:

    @BitterSteel
    Falcon already has ok damage in evade fights. Where else would you use him? Honestly, I don't know. Ghost can be used for so many fights, and she also can deal with evade fights easily. Choosing falcon over ghost doesn't really make scene.
    Same for Nick actually imo. Say you have both r3. There are not many fights to use falcon over furry, and it's not like one rank up bumps his damage a lot. You can probably use even a small boost once you need falcon, those are always expiring anyway

    I use Falcon in war all the time. I’ve faced 5 or 6 r3 Thing bosses and soloed every time, the most recent with 89% health remaining. His damage is incredible, his utility is one of the best in the game.

    Falcon is meant to be an evade counter sure, but people overlook that locked on gets rid of every single defensive ability in the game, excluding enhanced abilities. That is insane utility. No evades, no rock stacks, no limbo, no thorns. Nothing.
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 4,516 ★★★★★
    I like all of these debates. They are fun to think about.

    A few observations:

    1) For many players hitting/near the TB threshold, there isn’t a “utility vs. damage” choice (see @Haji_Saab ) because their T5c-Roster match doesn’t allow it. Which means all of this is mostly academic. Players instead suck it up and R3 someone so they can unlock the promise of TB spoils (which may be a bit of a letdown—see some of my other posts).

    Nevertheless...all this discussion is neat in a “how many angels could fit on the head of a pin” kind of way. Unless you are swimming in 6*’s, you rank the best options you have with the greatest expected longevity at the moment.

    2) With a little margin for disagreement, there is likely a set of champs the vast majority of players agree to be “acceptable” R3 candidates. There’s also a set of champs the vast majority would consider horrible R3 choices. If certain champs (using the current featured as example, Green Goblin, Dormammu, e.g.) admittedly don’t offer anywhere near the right mix of damage/utility, the question I always return to is why does the team insist on including them in things like featured crystals? What’s the rationale for a wide deviation, gatcha-style payout in some of the game’s most valued loot box/random prizes? Perhaps MCoC really does run on crestfallen Summoner tears...

    3) Going back to the first examples in this thread...Magneto is a bad example of the damage/utility trade off. Doc Ock is a great one that Kabam John should have used instead.

    Dr. Zola
  • BitterSteelBitterSteel Posts: 3,701 ★★★★★
    DrZola said:

    I like all of these debates. They are fun to think about.

    A few observations:

    1) For many players hitting/near the TB threshold, there isn’t a “utility vs. damage” choice (see @Haji_Saab ) because their T5c-Roster match doesn’t allow it. Which means all of this is mostly academic. Players instead suck it up and R3 someone so they can unlock the promise of TB spoils (which may be a bit of a letdown—see some of my other posts).

    Nevertheless...all this discussion is neat in a “how many angels could fit on the head of a pin” kind of way. Unless you are swimming in 6*’s, you rank the best options you have with the greatest expected longevity at the moment.

    2) With a little margin for disagreement, there is likely a set of champs the vast majority of players agree to be “acceptable” R3 candidates. There’s also a set of champs the vast majority would consider horrible R3 choices. If certain champs (using the current featured as example, Green Goblin, Dormammu, e.g.) admittedly don’t offer anywhere near the right mix of damage/utility, the question I always return to is why does the team insist on including them in things like featured crystals? What’s the rationale for a wide deviation, gatcha-style payout in some of the game’s most valued loot box/random prizes? Perhaps MCoC really does run on crestfallen Summoner tears...

    3) Going back to the first examples in this thread...Magneto is a bad example of the damage/utility trade off. Doc Ock is a great one that Kabam John should have used instead.

    Dr. Zola

    Just with regards to magneto, John didn’t actually use him as an example for this and people have taken it and run with it. What he said with magneto is actually that there isn’t much difference in his damage at r2 or r3, he said something along the lines of “what am I gonna get from an r3 mags instead of r2, oh yeah I oneshot an enemy with 25 prowess instead of 30”. His point being not that his utility was lacking, rather that he would crush the opponent on the first hit of his special rather 3 than the second.



    If you go to 17.00 mins in you’ll hear the convo. The convo about damage vs utility is more around the 11.40 mark.

    People have just mixed up his two points and taken it to mean that he thinks Mags has bad utility
  • DrZolaDrZola Posts: 4,516 ★★★★★

    DrZola said:

    I like all of these debates. They are fun to think about.

    A few observations:

    1) For many players hitting/near the TB threshold, there isn’t a “utility vs. damage” choice (see @Haji_Saab ) because their T5c-Roster match doesn’t allow it. Which means all of this is mostly academic. Players instead suck it up and R3 someone so they can unlock the promise of TB spoils (which may be a bit of a letdown—see some of my other posts).

    Nevertheless...all this discussion is neat in a “how many angels could fit on the head of a pin” kind of way. Unless you are swimming in 6*’s, you rank the best options you have with the greatest expected longevity at the moment.

    2) With a little margin for disagreement, there is likely a set of champs the vast majority of players agree to be “acceptable” R3 candidates. There’s also a set of champs the vast majority would consider horrible R3 choices. If certain champs (using the current featured as example, Green Goblin, Dormammu, e.g.) admittedly don’t offer anywhere near the right mix of damage/utility, the question I always return to is why does the team insist on including them in things like featured crystals? What’s the rationale for a wide deviation, gatcha-style payout in some of the game’s most valued loot box/random prizes? Perhaps MCoC really does run on crestfallen Summoner tears...

    3) Going back to the first examples in this thread...Magneto is a bad example of the damage/utility trade off. Doc Ock is a great one that Kabam John should have used instead.

    Dr. Zola

    Just with regards to magneto, John didn’t actually use him as an example for this and people have taken it and run with it. What he said with magneto is actually that there isn’t much difference in his damage at r2 or r3, he said something along the lines of “what am I gonna get from an r3 mags instead of r2, oh yeah I oneshot an enemy with 25 prowess instead of 30”. His point being not that his utility was lacking, rather that he would crush the opponent on the first hit of his special rather 3 than the second.



    If you go to 17.00 mins in you’ll hear the convo. The convo about damage vs utility is more around the 11.40 mark.

    People have just mixed up his two points and taken it to mean that he thinks Mags has bad utility
    That’s fair. Still not the example I would have used, but his point is a reasonable one.

    For me, it’s more nuanced than damage or utility. But I’m lucky to have decent options remaining across most classes, so I’m not the best data point.

    A binary approach, however, feels like something a new or less advanced player would use.

    Simplistically, the point is dealing damage vs. avoiding damage, but the factors that go into each category are much more varied than that. Hard to get into all that in a YT chat...

    Dr. Zola
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