The guys working on the buffs (from what I understand it’s two people?) are clearly wedded to the idea that one ability must be changed if others are added, even if it’s the one ability people dont want changed. It happens over and over again and it really seems to be why we have these controversies each time a popular but underpowered/niche character is changed. It obviously isn’t much of an issue for characters such as Karnak or Joe Fixit.
Until there is some level of compromise or understanding of this, the community is going to keep erupting every time, legitimately or not.
As per my comment earlier, I can’t understand why a small consultation can’t be added into the process, either with the CCP or the wider community. I don’t think it would lead to players being able to push for every champ to be top tier and I don’t think anyone is asking for that.
Personally I would quite like the original 40% reduction maintained and added to, and at least one other damage over time debuff added. Incinerate, coldsnap, shock, poison, rupture, anything. Give him a way to deal with bleed immunes. The other debuff doesn’t have to be critical in the same way as his bleeds, leaving him primarily effective against bleeders. Just don’t make him feel useless against bleed immune characters.
I agree that pre-fights, true strike, more trick arrows etc would all be nice but I believe addressing those two main issues would resolve a lot of the concerns people have with the buff.
My main issue with some of the buffs lately is that they are going in with say a 4 karat gold value character and changing him into a... 4.5 karat gold character. Very few are becoming 10 or 12 karat gold.
If you improve a character significantly overall they will be more useful for whoever gets them whether new player or veteran.
Why do you have to give with one hand and take with the other, especially as so many new (and obscure) champs are so overpowered?
It seems there is too much focus on champ balance vs player enjoyment. If you buff a champ make them unique enough that everyone wants to use them from just reading about them, and they fill a niche or two in their class at least. If they already fill a niche (power drain) add another niche-filler (shock, incinerate etc) to make them more attractive and not just damage as there are plenty damage dealers around.
If they already fill a niche (power drain) add another niche-filler (shock, incinerate etc) to make them more attractive and not just damage as there are plenty damage dealers around.
If they already fill a niche (power drain) add another niche-filler (shock, incinerate etc) to make them more attractive and not just damage as there are plenty damage dealers around.
Yeah 100%, say for example, a slow debuff?
That’s equating non-damaging debuffs with damaging debuffs though. He’s going to be a lot better against unstoppable and evaders but still ineffective against bleed immunes. For a character famous for trick arrows you would expect him to have at least one other damaging debuff, even if it isn’t as powerful as his primary debuff.
If they already fill a niche (power drain) add another niche-filler (shock, incinerate etc) to make them more attractive and not just damage as there are plenty damage dealers around.
Yeah 100%, say for example, a slow debuff?
That’s equating non-damaging debuffs with damaging debuffs though. He’s going to be a lot better against unstoppable and evaders but still ineffective against bleed immunes. For a character famous for trick arrows you would expect him to have at least one other damaging debuff, even if it isn’t as powerful as his primary debuff.
Bugmat was making the point that buffs should make champions fulfil another niche. Listing power drain as an example. Not specific to DOT. You’re bringing this back to damaging debuffs, I was just pointing out he had another niche, as asked for in the post.
Also, if you really want him to have another DOT, use the tigra synergy.
What’s the point in suggesting improvements to a character if someone replies “just use this or that synergy”? Characters shouldn’t be dependent on a synergy to be effective. The Tigra synergy is great but it’s a trade off. You lose the bleeds.
Hawkeye is a character famous for having different trick arrows for different situations. Bleeds and power drain/slow is good. An additional debuff to counter bleed immunes would be great.
The guys working on the buffs (from what I understand it’s two people?) are clearly wedded to the idea that one ability must be changed if others are added, even if it’s the one ability people dont want changed. It happens over and over again and it really seems to be why we have these controversies each time a popular but underpowered/niche character is changed. It obviously isn’t much of an issue for characters such as Karnak or Joe Fixit.
Until there is some level of compromise or understanding of this, the community is going to keep erupting every time, legitimately or not.
As per my comment earlier, I can’t understand why a small consultation can’t be added into the process, either with the CCP or the wider community. I don’t think it would lead to players being able to push for every champ to be top tier and I don’t think anyone is asking for that.
Personally I would quite like the original 40% reduction maintained and added to, and at least one other damage over time debuff added. Incinerate, coldsnap, shock, poison, rupture, anything. Give him a way to deal with bleed immunes. The other debuff doesn’t have to be critical in the same way as his bleeds, leaving him primarily effective against bleeders. Just don’t make him feel useless against bleed immune characters.
I agree that pre-fights, true strike, more trick arrows etc would all be nice but I believe addressing those two main issues would resolve a lot of the concerns people have with the buff.
Personally, I would love to have real E.M.P. and incendiary arrows in his kit. But somehow, that was too obvious for Kabam.
Thus buff is still great, but it could have been much better. I think Kabam got lost in that Perfect Release mechanic.
I like new changes to hawkeye but If kabam had not nerfed his power control ability with his new kit he would have become super god-tier with Hercules and hercules+tiagra synergy for aq and aw. And for questing with teams like 1. Hawkeye, Hercules, cap infinity, void, dark hawk 2. Hawkeye, Hercules, cap infinity, void, Tigra 3. Hawkeye, Hercules, black panther iw, void, dark hawk
These synergies would have made him a god-tier. Also, other synergies will make Hercules, void, Tigra, Immortal hulk stronger. This nerf in his ability is a step to not make him a god-tier. Let's see how he comes out after changes.
If they already fill a niche (power drain) add another niche-filler (shock, incinerate etc) to make them more attractive and not just damage as there are plenty damage dealers around.
Yeah 100%, say for example, a slow debuff?
Not sure this is as funny as it was in your head as I already stated that was a good addition in an earlier post, but still doesn't make him as special as a suite of prefights and ability to change them midfight would make him (being an OG Avenger). Stealth suit can do slow and fragility. What I personally wanted was a character more in line with the comic book Hawkeye vs an extension of the kabam one (a power drainer with now added slow).
I guess I wanted a rework/overhaul that kept his power drain but added several utility (like a BWCV or Sorcerer supreme) over a moderate buff.
If they already fill a niche (power drain) add another niche-filler (shock, incinerate etc) to make them more attractive and not just damage as there are plenty damage dealers around.
Yeah 100%, say for example, a slow debuff?
Not sure this is as funny as it was in your head as I already stated that was a good addition in an earlier post, but still doesn't make him as special as a suite of prefights and ability to change them midfight would make him (being an OG Avenger). Stealth suit can do slow and fragility. What I personally wanted was a character more in line with the comic book Hawkeye vs an extension of the kabam one (a power drainer with now added slow).
I guess I wanted a rework/overhaul that kept his power drain but added several utility (like a BWCV or Sorcerer supreme) over a moderate buff.
As much as I like the HE buff so far and as much as I've been defending it, I have to agree with you that having more arrow types would have been amazing. Make them like WS where you have to dash back and hold block to cycle through them, or make it so that we can cycle them on medium combo enders, and then give him a prefight that would allow him to start on a specific arrow type in case you needed a certain piece of utility right away.
I just don't agree with the people calling it a nerf already since we haven't been able to test the buff yet. Just stop with the whole nerf thing and wait for the next update. Then we will have a final verdict.
All I’m seeing is that Beast now has better power control than Hawkeye, pog
Oh and for those that don’t know, Beast reduces combat power rate by 100% for like 80% of the fight, without debuffs. Plus that other 20% he’s reducing it by 50%. And on top of all of that he’s regenning that entire time. Beast is just better Hawkeye tbhtbhtbh
All I’m seeing is that Beast now has better power control than Hawkeye, pog
Oh and for those that don’t know, Beast reduces combat power rate by 100% for like 80% of the fight, without debuffs. Plus that other 20% he’s reducing it by 50%. And on top of all of that he’s regenning that entire time. Beast is just better Hawkeye tbhtbhtbh
Doesn’t he have to be awakened? And start the fight at less than 50% health? And he has no power control for passive power gain?
All I’m seeing is that Beast now has better power control than Hawkeye, pog
Oh and for those that don’t know, Beast reduces combat power rate by 100% for like 80% of the fight, without debuffs. Plus that other 20% he’s reducing it by 50%. And on top of all of that he’s regenning that entire time. Beast is just better Hawkeye tbhtbhtbh
Doesn’t he have to be awakened? And start the fight at less than 50% health? And he has no power control for passive power gain?
Yes, but that’s a small price to pay for salvation 😌
The power drain reduction is not all that significant. There will still be the complete capability to keep the opponent under a bar of power throughout the full fight while spamming sp1 if you so please. With his new kit, the other special attacks are more valuable anyhow compared to them prior. He received a good buff compared to his original kit regardless of any small changes. it really ain’t that deep.
Im impressed how people can write whole books about champs they didnt see even 1 second of gameplay yet
Coz people can read and been playing this game for years. If i give you the script to a movie can you say it will be good, trash or just ok? Most people can
Wow they messed up the one reason to use him. Sp1 power drain. Using big numbers like 75% ss fooling nobody here. A power drain that drains more than a full bar is much more useful in real game applications than combat power rate decrease. It is good to keep enemy from getting to sp3 . If the added benefit was an enervate or combat power icrease for hawkeye below 1 bar change to power drain could have been justified.
Hawkeye's main use was to play with making enemies do as less specials at all, in the hands of a good player you could have played in a way enemy never throws a special. bye bye to that.
"Hey this guy has synergies so we are not gonna add it it base" sounds like a bad excuse here. His synergy with tigra could have been moved to base kit . Only added benefit here is slow and bleed damage. Kabam clearly didnt learn from Guillotine buff backlash. The tigra poisons does not benefit from his base kit whatsoever, nor from deep wounds.
There is at least 10 great hawkeye buff ideas submitted by players in forum and kabam could ve picked a few of them and we would have had a better champion but no. Against bleed immune he may as well be a potato. If he could trigger shock against bleed immune champs that be something. No anti miss mechanic for the best marksman in Marvel? Really?
Hawkeye was one of those champs in a class who did something most champs in class didnt do. Control. He had so much potential and is now another one trick pony. Useless versus non bleeders .
Assume you have one champ in quest who he cannot bleed and now you want to switch to poisons and bring tigra. He will be significantly worse vs everyone else in path. This could ve easily circumvented by giving him a pre fight arrow selection. Or if he triggered shock vs bleed immune champs.
All in all this seems the bare minimum they could have been done to a champion buff that has been requested for over 6 years. You could have slapped this on BPCW, Elektra and called it an elektra buff. This is not a hawkeye buff. I doubt there is much hope for og avengers to be decent from this info.
This is another "Oooh Damage" buffs. And an extremely missed opportunity to show kabam's creative side. The mechanics already exist in game to do this.
If you need more time take it, take more time that stick to 2 champ buffs a month or dont feel obliged to deliver buffs same day the patch gors through. We can wait, as long as you deliver good content we are ready to wait, pay and play. Please stop taking the easy way out.
This is one of the buffs players been waiting for 6+ years to see and you deliver this? Seems more time went into fixit because he has defende capabilities. This is one of the OG avengers, one of the select few characters upon which this game ows it success and loyal player base to. No one download this game to play Civil warrior. We came to play marvel heroes and you are obligated to see the loyalty of players through. We and these champions deserve that respect.
PS: Saw a tweet saying people just want all buffs to be magneto or ultron.
Ultron has been bugged for months and magneto can easily be countered by 1-2 basic of basics of nodes in game.
Not all champs has to be game breakers but they should bring something thay makes a difference, unique to the character that has use within game universe at present and not unique for name sake. A buff in 2021 Nov should not look like it was cooked up in 2017-18
I've repeatedly said that these buffs will require rebalancing now and then, yet people still react to any change to the original kit. There's no prerequisite that they must be the same as before, with more. I don't disagree that the process can go awry, as in the case of Guilly. However, you can't balance anything by simply adding more alone.
Why are you speaking like this is the first buff you are seeing? Small meaningful changes can make a champ good. We ve seen it again and again.
Pre-buff Hawkeye had one very good thing: a powerful, consistent, reliable power drain of 40% of max. Power with the SP1. This is the equivalent of 120% of a bar of Power. He was a one-trick kind of guy, but the player base enjoyed it because of it. Let me repeat: powerful, consistent, reliable.
Post-buff Hawkeye power drains for only 75% of a bar of Power with the SP1, a reduction of 45% of a bar of Power, or in relative terms, -37,5% less power drain. In a fight, that stacks a lot. If pre-buff Hawkeye would have used 5 SP1's, he would have drained 600% of a bar of Power, or the equivalent of six SP1, three SP2 or two SP3. Post-buff Hawkeye will have drained 375% of a bar of Power, or 225% of a bar of Power less. That's two extra SP1 or one extra SP2 you have to bait and dex more than before!
As gods, Kabam gives and takes away. With a Perfect Release, there is a 100% chance to inflict a Suppression Debuff, reducing the Opponent’s Combat Power Rate by 50% for 8 seconds. How to get that Perfect Release? During Special Attacks, press the Block after the first hit Input to slow down time. Releasing the Block Input precisely when Hawkeye releases the arrow grants this Perfect Release bonus.
As Hawkeye hasn't been released yet, we don't know what this Perfect Release thing looks like. But we do know one thing: a powerful, consistent, reliable power drain has been replaced by a less powerful, but same consistent, reliable power drain and a less powerful, less consistent, less reliable Suppression Debuff. A Debuff that can be shrugged off, can fail due to an immunity and requires you to attack the opponent and giving it power, but to a lesser degree. A Debuff that won't even be inflicted if you fail to do a Perfect Release.
In any match-up where power drain matters (Hyperion, Power Focus, Energize,...), you'll notice that post-buff Hawkeye performs worse than pre-buff Hawkeye. Also the synergy with Hercules changes: as it requires passing the threshold of a bar of Power to gain a Fury Buff, it is more difficult to do with post-buff Hawkeye than pre-buff Hawkeye.
I decided to experiment with this to try to figure out what the combined suppression + drain might look like, using Hawkeye on live and just recording some fights and retroactively applying the theoretical impact of the Hawkeye update.
In any fight where you're going to be using power control, you're likely to be attacking continuously, or nearly so. In those circumstances where I was spamming SP1 and trying to attack a lot, in eight seconds my attacks were giving the opponent approximately a bar of power. So hypothetically speaking, a 75% of a bar drain plus an 8 second suppression that reduced combat power gain by 50% would be 75% + 50% = 125% of a bar of power.
However, perfect release also applies a dialed in passive which increases debuff duration. As suppression is itself a debuff, its duration would be increased by up to 50%. At the maximum stack of 5, suppression would be reducing combat power rate by up to 12 seconds, which could reduce offensive power gain by up to 75% net power. That would be a total of 150% power either removed or suppressed off the target. That's higher than the 140% that OG Hawkeye drains with SP1 now.
We are comparing a power reduction of between 125% and 150% to one with an effective strength of 140%. If we assume that the first dialed in passive buffs the first suppression, then it is actually 130% - 150% compared to 140%. How long would it take for updated Hawkeye to catch up and overtake OG Hawkeye in terms of overall net power control, assuming he doesn't lose his dialed in stacks? Its basically five SP1s. Five OG Hawkeye SP1s have the same overall power control potential as updated Hawkeye. Moreover, the difference is small: 10% of one bar of power at worst.
There's no question that OG Hawkeye's power drain is easier to use, but is there anything updated Hawkeye gets in exchange for having a higher skill threshold? Actually, yes there is. Having a lower drain plus suppression allows updated Hawkeye to keep a target below one bar of power. You can't really do that with OG Hawkeye for the obvious reason that you can't get his maximum drain potential if the target is below one bar. He can't "bank" the extra drain. Updated Hawkeye can drain *all* of the power of a target that is under one bar of power, and then suppress them for a long enough period of time to prevent them from going above one bar of power before he gets back to SP1, whereupon he can cycle that again.
The combination of power drain and suppression will affect different fights in different ways. In situations where power gain comes more from direct ability gain and not from combat power gain (Hyperion for example), OG Hawkeye might have an edge. Where more power comes from combat power gain (for example, Energize and Power Focus) it is possible updated Hawkeye would have greater power control impact on the fight, because suppression would have a proportionately larger impact.
So updated Hawkeye's power control isn't actually inferior to OG Hawkeye. It has a higher skill threshold, but he does get something for that higher skill: an overall more effective power control capability. Whether this is a reasonable trade, and what it looks like in-game has yet to be determined, but this is most definitely not a case of the developers taking something away for nothing. Hawkeye isn't a worse power control champ. He may be a harder to play power control champ, but the numbers say his power control isn't quantitatively worse, and arguably qualitatively better.
According to your calculations, post-buff Hawkeye requires roughly 5 SP1's to become quantitatively the same as pre-buff Hawkeye. How many bars of Power does an average fight take? 6? Pre-buff Hawkeye has really the edge here, because he needs no start-up time. And then I don't address the blatant issue: after one SP1, post-buff Hawkeye already lags behind for 45% of a bar of Power. Only when the Suppression Debuff avoids 45% of a bar of Power, both champions result in equal power.
Actually, this contains a subtle error. I take it for granted that we're looking at the numbers from a very coarse and simplified basis, and as long as you honor the limits of that sort of thing that's fine. But when I say that it takes 5 SP1s for update Hawkeye to overtake OG Hawkeye, I'm saying if we judge the power control quantitatively in terms of how much power Hawkeye deprives the opponent of, then update Hawkeye equals or exceeds OG Hawkeye on that basis. You can't say that Hawkeye has an edge because of *how* he gains that power *in this context*. The moment you say that update Hawkeye overtakes in five, and you acknowledge a fight is likely to go six, update Hawkeye wins in this metric. You can argue that OG Hawkeye's power control is qualitatively better in spite of it being weaker but that's no longer a quantitative argument.
And in fact, in a lot of fights where power control is important a fight will go more than six. When I tested my 4/55 Hawkeye with full suicides in the skill Cav EQ, I was generally getting to six in most of the path fights. Bosses or stronger opponents will generally take more. But the point here is the unqualified statement "Hawkeye will have to work harder for worse power control" is not supported by the numbers.
There's also a separate argument to be made if we leave the context of raw numbers and look more carefully at the details. Because when I say that update Hawkeye equals or exceeds OG Hawkeye in five SP1s, that might sound like I'm saying update Hawkeye is worse off until you reach five. But that's not true. In a moment by moment context, update Hawkeye's power control is quantitatively lower than OG on SP1 #1 (in my simplified analysis), marginally worse in SP1 #2, *equal* in SP1 #3, and then *superior* in every SP1 after the third. After the third it is "winning." To be fair, I say update Hawkeye equals or exceeds OG Hawkeye after five SP1s because it is at that point that OG Hawkeye wins two, update Hawkeye wins two, and they tie once. But the fight is better for update Hawkeye the moment he throws the third SP1 (again, in this simplified analysis). A player doesn't wait five specials to see improvement.
You mentioned that pre-buff Hawkeye more easily suffers from redundant power drain, power drain that goes to waste because you can't go below zero. That's true, but in terms of skills, it isn't that hard to maximize. Power that is below one bar of Power is useless, only going over the threshold matters. It isn't hard to go between 5-hit and 3-hit combo's to manage power so you maximise drainage.
But even if we assume that on average 20% of a bar of Power of power draining capacity is lost, is that bad? Not necessarily, as that is the goal. It means you have a buffer of 20%.
This is also problematic, because your argument is that update Hawkeye's drain is far worse than OG Hawkeye. It is, if you ignore suppression and if you ignore overkill. But if you say that overkill is fine here, you're weakening your own argument that 120% of a bar of power is a lot better than 75%. If we take your statement to be true, that anything under a bar of power is meaningless, then the value of 75% drain is not, in fact, a lot worse than 120% drain because both can bring the opponent below one bar of power from significantly above one bar of power. 120% is better, but it is not 120-75 better. This calculation overstates the net worth of 120% of a bar of power drain in this context. In the context of just comparing raw numbers to raw numbers, 120 > 75. In the context of the more subjective power bar transition context, 120 is still better, but not 45 better. If you're going to use this argument to claim that it is *obvious* that updated Hawkeye is unambiguously worse, you can't blend the two contexts like that. Because this is now not obvious, because the value of suppression in this context is a lot higher.
2) From a design-perspective, more complexity adds more opportunities for failure.
Pre-buff Hawkeye has two points of failure: failure to trigger the power drain because of AAR, and failure to power drain due to power drain immunity. Post-buff Hawkeye has points of failure: all the failures of pre-buff Hawkeye, failure to Perfect Release and subsequently loss of Dialed In Passives, failure to trigger the Suppression Debuff because of AAR, failure to apply the Suppression Debuff because of Suppression Debuff or regular Debuff immunity, removal of Suppression Debuff by nodes (Masochism) or purify ability (reduced debuff duration, tenacity, Kingpin or DDHK,...) and failure to take full advantage of the duration of the Suppression Debuff due to imperfect gameplay.
In no realistic world it isn't qualitatively better if you need to work harder to get the same/similar result as before.
That's true, but you haven't demonstrated unambiguously that OG Hawkeye's power control is actually worse. I've suggested that it is *possible* that it is better, and only testing is likely to show whether it is or not. You're argument appears to be, in effect, that just looking at the buff on paper can tell you this with confidence. I don't think anyone can say that yet.
One begs the question: why adding this complexity and not simply buffing his original power drain to 150% of a bar of Power? The Suppression Debuff could have been replaced by a Shock Debuff (E.M.P. Arrow, hello!).
I discussed this after the Hood update and again after the Guillotine update. There is no rule, and can never be a rule, that says developers are not allowed to change existing abilities when they do champion updates. That's both impractical, and in the long run generates inferior results. Champion designs are not just lists of abilities, at least not good ones. Good designs combine the parts into a coherent whole. You can't always do that by just adding things to a champ, and even if you could there's no benefit high enough to make up for the extra effort and design constraints. Instead, the rule should be the more subjective but more useful rule that champions should not have core use cases removed or significantly harmed. Hawkeye did have power control as a core use case. Update Hawkeye clearly still does have power control as a core use case, so it wasn't removed. You can argue it has been damaged, but I would argue the numbers don't say that, and I don't see that argument refuted directly yet (you're free to disagree of course, as even my analysis is very preliminary - I don't think it is definitive, but I don't think there's enough information to solidly overturn it yet).
The question though, which is a valid question I brought up both with Hood and with Guillotine is: does the change serve a necessary or reasonable purpose? And in this case, I believe you can make an argument that it does. You can *argue* that Hawkeye now has a higher skill requirement but also better rewards skill, which is a feature that some champions have when they are designed today, but basically none of them had when they were designed way back when. So I would expect at least some of the older champs that are updated to have that feature added to them, and Hawkeye seems to me at least to be a reasonable choice for such a feature.
Now again, I'm not saying that update Hawkeye is *provably* better in all cases. What I'm saying is that it is a reasonable goal to have some champs be simple (that are no worse in the hands of an unskilled player but not all that much better in the hands of a skilled player) and some have higher skill requirements to play. And when we're buffing old champs, none of which were designed with that thought in mind, some of them should become that kind of champ. And Hawkeye makes sense to be one of those kinds of champs. And it is reasonable to state that the update changes to Hawkeye do trade more skill requirements for a higher performance ceiling.
Whether they succeeded or not, I can't say with certainty. But I would say these are design goals are reasonable design goals to pursue, and that justify altering Hawkeye's base kit during a champion update.
Let's assume what you say is correct, that post-buff Hawkeye can consistently keep opponents under one bar of power. Hercules synergy requires that the power drain passes the threshold to get Fury Buff. Post-buff Hawkeye will have more trouble keeping up those Fury buffs, losing out damage. To be fair, pre-buff Hawkeye hasn't much damage anyway, so that might cancel out.
Even though update Hawkeye might be better *capable* of keeping a target under one bar, that doesn't mean a player who uses him must do so. You make this point yourself when you discuss power drain "overkill." What the power drain does, and how the players choose to use it tactically, is not the same thing, and players can do things to situationally maximize the benefit beyond our oversimplified number crunching. In fact, this could be construed as another area where skillful play offers a reward. A cautious or less skilled player might just want to spam SP1 and keep the target totally special locked. A more skillfull player might deliberately push the target to just over one bar before draining them. This is actually a tactic that sounds at least as easy to do with update Hawkeye as it would be for OG Hawkeye because suppression would slow down combat power gain and make it easier to push the opponent over one bar without pushing too much. Until I test the update, I would have to assume OG Hawkeye and update Hawkeye could both use this tactic equally well.
Im impressed how people can write whole books about champs they didnt see even 1 second of gameplay yet
Coz people can read and been playing this game for years. If i give you the script to a movie can you say it will be good, trash or just ok? Most people can
Most people can't. And honestly, most pre-release paper analyses of champions have been equally dubious.
To preface, he is better overall, IMO, but I think the deciding factor will be how easy/hard Perfect Release will be to pull off. A lot of comments are lumping it in the power control considerations like it's a certainty. If it's subject to the same gimpiness as so many other precision aspects of the game, it won't look good.
Wow they messed up the one reason to use him. Sp1 power drain. Using big numbers like 75% ss fooling nobody here. A power drain that drains more than a full bar is much more useful in real game applications than combat power rate decrease. It is good to keep enemy from getting to sp3 . If the added benefit was an enervate or combat power icrease for hawkeye below 1 bar change to power drain could have been justified.
Hawkeye's main use was to play with making enemies do as less specials at all, in the hands of a good player you could have played in a way enemy never throws a special. bye bye to that.
"Hey this guy has synergies so we are not gonna add it it base" sounds like a bad excuse here. His synergy with tigra could have been moved to base kit . Only added benefit here is slow and bleed damage. Kabam clearly didnt learn from Guillotine buff backlash. The tigra poisons does not benefit from his base kit whatsoever, nor from deep wounds.
There is at least 10 great hawkeye buff ideas submitted by players in forum and kabam could ve picked a few of them and we would have had a better champion but no. Against bleed immune he may as well be a potato. If he could trigger shock against bleed immune champs that be something. No anti miss mechanic for the best marksman in Marvel? Really?
Hawkeye was one of those champs in a class who did something most champs in class didnt do. Control. He had so much potential and is now another one trick pony. Useless versus non bleeders .
Assume you have one champ in quest who he cannot bleed and now you want to switch to poisons and bring tigra. He will be significantly worse vs everyone else in path. This could ve easily circumvented by giving him a pre fight arrow selection. Or if he triggered shock vs bleed immune champs.
All in all this seems the bare minimum they could have been done to a champion buff that has been requested for over 6 years. You could have slapped this on BPCW, Elektra and called it an elektra buff. This is not a hawkeye buff. I doubt there is much hope for og avengers to be decent from this info.
This is another "Oooh Damage" buffs. And an extremely missed opportunity to show kabam's creative side. The mechanics already exist in game to do this.
If you need more time take it, take more time that stick to 2 champ buffs a month or dont feel obliged to deliver buffs same day the patch gors through. We can wait, as long as you deliver good content we are ready to wait, pay and play. Please stop taking the easy way out.
This is one of the buffs players been waiting for 6+ years to see and you deliver this? Seems more time went into fixit because he has defende capabilities. This is one of the OG avengers, one of the select few characters upon which this game ows it success and loyal player base to. No one download this game to play Civil warrior. We came to play marvel heroes and you are obligated to see the loyalty of players through. We and these champions deserve that respect.
PS: Saw a tweet saying people just want all buffs to be magneto or ultron.
Ultron has been bugged for months and magneto can easily be countered by 1-2 basic of basics of nodes in game.
Not all champs has to be game breakers but they should bring something thay makes a difference, unique to the character that has use within game universe at present and not unique for name sake. A buff in 2021 Nov should not look like it was cooked up in 2017-18
Bruh did you really just copypaste the same essay you wrote on another thread?
Comments
Until there is some level of compromise or understanding of this, the community is going to keep erupting every time, legitimately or not.
As per my comment earlier, I can’t understand why a small consultation can’t be added into the process, either with the CCP or the wider community. I don’t think it would lead to players being able to push for every champ to be top tier and I don’t think anyone is asking for that.
Personally I would quite like the original 40% reduction maintained and added to, and at least one other damage over time debuff added. Incinerate, coldsnap, shock, poison, rupture, anything. Give him a way to deal with bleed immunes. The other debuff doesn’t have to be critical in the same way as his bleeds, leaving him primarily effective against bleeders. Just don’t make him feel useless against bleed immune characters.
I agree that pre-fights, true strike, more trick arrows etc would all be nice but I believe addressing those two main issues would resolve a lot of the concerns people have with the buff.
If you improve a character significantly overall they will be more useful for whoever gets them whether new player or veteran.
Why do you have to give with one hand and take with the other, especially as so many new (and obscure) champs are so overpowered?
It seems there is too much focus on champ balance vs player enjoyment. If you buff a champ make them unique enough that everyone wants to use them from just reading about them, and they fill a niche or two in their class at least. If they already fill a niche (power drain) add another niche-filler (shock, incinerate etc) to make them more attractive and not just damage as there are plenty damage dealers around.
Also, if you really want him to have another DOT, use the tigra synergy.
Hawkeye is a character famous for having different trick arrows for different situations. Bleeds and power drain/slow is good. An additional debuff to counter bleed immunes would be great.
Thus buff is still great, but it could have been much better. I think Kabam got lost in that Perfect Release mechanic.
And for questing with teams like
1. Hawkeye, Hercules, cap infinity, void, dark hawk
2. Hawkeye, Hercules, cap infinity, void, Tigra
3. Hawkeye, Hercules, black panther iw, void, dark hawk
These synergies would have made him a god-tier. Also, other synergies will make Hercules, void, Tigra, Immortal hulk stronger.
This nerf in his ability is a step to not make him a god-tier. Let's see how he comes out after changes.
I guess I wanted a rework/overhaul that kept his power drain but added several utility (like a BWCV or Sorcerer supreme) over a moderate buff.
I just don't agree with the people calling it a nerf already since we haven't been able to test the buff yet. Just stop with the whole nerf thing and wait for the next update. Then we will have a final verdict.
Hawkeye's main use was to play with making enemies do as less specials at all, in the hands of a good player you could have played in a way enemy never throws a special. bye bye to that.
"Hey this guy has synergies so we are not gonna add it it base" sounds like a bad excuse here. His synergy with tigra could have been moved to base kit . Only added benefit here is slow and bleed damage. Kabam clearly didnt learn from Guillotine buff backlash. The tigra poisons does not benefit from his base kit whatsoever, nor from deep wounds.
There is at least 10 great hawkeye buff ideas submitted by players in forum and kabam could ve picked a few of them and we would have had a better champion but no. Against bleed immune he may as well be a potato. If he could trigger shock against bleed immune champs that be something. No anti miss mechanic for the best marksman in Marvel? Really?
Hawkeye was one of those champs in a class who did something most champs in class didnt do. Control. He had so much potential and is now another one trick pony. Useless versus non bleeders .
Assume you have one champ in quest who he cannot bleed and now you want to switch to poisons and bring tigra. He will be significantly worse vs everyone else in path. This could ve easily circumvented by giving him a pre fight arrow selection. Or if he triggered shock vs bleed immune champs.
All in all this seems the bare minimum they could have been done to a champion buff that has been requested for over 6 years. You could have slapped this on BPCW, Elektra and called it an elektra buff. This is not a hawkeye buff. I doubt there is much hope for og avengers to be decent from this info.
This is another "Oooh Damage" buffs. And an extremely missed opportunity to show kabam's creative side. The mechanics already exist in game to do this.
If you need more time take it, take more time that stick to 2 champ buffs a month or dont feel obliged to deliver buffs same day the patch gors through. We can wait, as long as you deliver good content we are ready to wait, pay and play. Please stop taking the easy way out.
This is one of the buffs players been waiting for 6+ years to see and you deliver this? Seems more time went into fixit because he has defende capabilities. This is one of the OG avengers, one of the select few characters upon which this game ows it success and loyal player base to. No one download this game to play Civil warrior. We came to play marvel heroes and you are obligated to see the loyalty of players through. We and these champions deserve that respect.
PS: Saw a tweet saying people just want all buffs to be magneto or ultron.
Ultron has been bugged for months and magneto can easily be countered by 1-2 basic of basics of nodes in game.
Not all champs has to be game breakers but they should bring something thay makes a difference, unique to the character that has use within game universe at present and not unique for name sake. A buff in 2021 Nov should not look like it was cooked up in 2017-18
And in fact, in a lot of fights where power control is important a fight will go more than six. When I tested my 4/55 Hawkeye with full suicides in the skill Cav EQ, I was generally getting to six in most of the path fights. Bosses or stronger opponents will generally take more. But the point here is the unqualified statement "Hawkeye will have to work harder for worse power control" is not supported by the numbers.
There's also a separate argument to be made if we leave the context of raw numbers and look more carefully at the details. Because when I say that update Hawkeye equals or exceeds OG Hawkeye in five SP1s, that might sound like I'm saying update Hawkeye is worse off until you reach five. But that's not true. In a moment by moment context, update Hawkeye's power control is quantitatively lower than OG on SP1 #1 (in my simplified analysis), marginally worse in SP1 #2, *equal* in SP1 #3, and then *superior* in every SP1 after the third. After the third it is "winning." To be fair, I say update Hawkeye equals or exceeds OG Hawkeye after five SP1s because it is at that point that OG Hawkeye wins two, update Hawkeye wins two, and they tie once. But the fight is better for update Hawkeye the moment he throws the third SP1 (again, in this simplified analysis). A player doesn't wait five specials to see improvement. This is also problematic, because your argument is that update Hawkeye's drain is far worse than OG Hawkeye. It is, if you ignore suppression and if you ignore overkill. But if you say that overkill is fine here, you're weakening your own argument that 120% of a bar of power is a lot better than 75%. If we take your statement to be true, that anything under a bar of power is meaningless, then the value of 75% drain is not, in fact, a lot worse than 120% drain because both can bring the opponent below one bar of power from significantly above one bar of power. 120% is better, but it is not 120-75 better. This calculation overstates the net worth of 120% of a bar of power drain in this context. In the context of just comparing raw numbers to raw numbers, 120 > 75. In the context of the more subjective power bar transition context, 120 is still better, but not 45 better. If you're going to use this argument to claim that it is *obvious* that updated Hawkeye is unambiguously worse, you can't blend the two contexts like that. Because this is now not obvious, because the value of suppression in this context is a lot higher.
That's true, but you haven't demonstrated unambiguously that OG Hawkeye's power control is actually worse. I've suggested that it is *possible* that it is better, and only testing is likely to show whether it is or not. You're argument appears to be, in effect, that just looking at the buff on paper can tell you this with confidence. I don't think anyone can say that yet.
I discussed this after the Hood update and again after the Guillotine update. There is no rule, and can never be a rule, that says developers are not allowed to change existing abilities when they do champion updates. That's both impractical, and in the long run generates inferior results. Champion designs are not just lists of abilities, at least not good ones. Good designs combine the parts into a coherent whole. You can't always do that by just adding things to a champ, and even if you could there's no benefit high enough to make up for the extra effort and design constraints. Instead, the rule should be the more subjective but more useful rule that champions should not have core use cases removed or significantly harmed. Hawkeye did have power control as a core use case. Update Hawkeye clearly still does have power control as a core use case, so it wasn't removed. You can argue it has been damaged, but I would argue the numbers don't say that, and I don't see that argument refuted directly yet (you're free to disagree of course, as even my analysis is very preliminary - I don't think it is definitive, but I don't think there's enough information to solidly overturn it yet).
The question though, which is a valid question I brought up both with Hood and with Guillotine is: does the change serve a necessary or reasonable purpose? And in this case, I believe you can make an argument that it does. You can *argue* that Hawkeye now has a higher skill requirement but also better rewards skill, which is a feature that some champions have when they are designed today, but basically none of them had when they were designed way back when. So I would expect at least some of the older champs that are updated to have that feature added to them, and Hawkeye seems to me at least to be a reasonable choice for such a feature.
Now again, I'm not saying that update Hawkeye is *provably* better in all cases. What I'm saying is that it is a reasonable goal to have some champs be simple (that are no worse in the hands of an unskilled player but not all that much better in the hands of a skilled player) and some have higher skill requirements to play. And when we're buffing old champs, none of which were designed with that thought in mind, some of them should become that kind of champ. And Hawkeye makes sense to be one of those kinds of champs. And it is reasonable to state that the update changes to Hawkeye do trade more skill requirements for a higher performance ceiling.
Whether they succeeded or not, I can't say with certainty. But I would say these are design goals are reasonable design goals to pursue, and that justify altering Hawkeye's base kit during a champion update.
Even though update Hawkeye might be better *capable* of keeping a target under one bar, that doesn't mean a player who uses him must do so. You make this point yourself when you discuss power drain "overkill." What the power drain does, and how the players choose to use it tactically, is not the same thing, and players can do things to situationally maximize the benefit beyond our oversimplified number crunching. In fact, this could be construed as another area where skillful play offers a reward. A cautious or less skilled player might just want to spam SP1 and keep the target totally special locked. A more skillfull player might deliberately push the target to just over one bar before draining them. This is actually a tactic that sounds at least as easy to do with update Hawkeye as it would be for OG Hawkeye because suppression would slow down combat power gain and make it easier to push the opponent over one bar without pushing too much. Until I test the update, I would have to assume OG Hawkeye and update Hawkeye could both use this tactic equally well.
What?