I'm getting Parried at least once per fights nowadays (in Arena, BG and AW). I been Parried before, but only once in awhile, but now it is every fights.
I also just tried EoP wk3, and got Bleed debuff when I was hitting into Blade's block (not Reparry, he was holding block).
Does anyone else have similarly experience?
Could the change of AI part of the launch of BG?
Yeah the AI is parrying while holding block again.
It won’t be due to the launch of BGs, these changes have been noticed as far back as August last year.
Guys, come on, isn’t it obvious? First day on the job, Dorky Dave showed the AI this video, and voilà, they know how to parry https://youtu.be/VRPXxHrgDnY
Aside from the aforementioned input system changes, there are 3 main AI styles that are in rotation. This has come up many times before. Just because things are operating differently doesn't mean it's an intentional change. I can understand the question of communication, but my question is, would people accept the response that nothing has been changed?
Do enlighten me on these “3 main AI styles.”
Dr. Zola
He has no clue and won't bother to link to the thread where he supposedly said it. Probably doesn't exist, he just likes to stir the pot with nonsense.
If only someone had made a thread, bumped it 6 times and then made a new thread to do just that.
Back to my original point. If we know they're reading the complaints, what response would suffice? Seems like a bit of an angry mob topic.
Well for me from a customer service side, I would expect this:-
1) Let your customers know you have read their feedback. "Thank you for letting us know, we have report this to the development team an investigation"
2) Actually report back to the development team.
3) Development team investigation and work on fix
4) Continue communication between the development team and the customers (players) on a regular schedule. Even with simple message like "Just want to let you know we are still investigation and working on the fix"
That would be at least a good start, in a way similar to how Kabam originally communicated regarding the input issue (sadly it didn't continue and the "fix" didn't fix anything either)
If only someone had made a thread, bumped it 6 times and then made a new thread to do just that.
Back to my original point. If we know they're reading the complaints, what response would suffice? Seems like a bit of an angry mob topic.
Actually, there’s zero guarantee they are reading the comments. The swiftness with which threads like this are mothballed suggests there is a deliberate avoidance of the topic.
Id suggest folks stop replying to the common derailer and focus on the subject at hand.
I'm not derailing anything. I'm pointing out that these discussions tend to have accusations and conspiracies, and that affects the responses that can be productive.
Id suggest folks stop replying to the common derailer and focus on the subject at hand.
I'm not derailing anything. I'm pointing out that these discussions tend to have accusations and conspiracies, and that affects the responses that can be productive.
Please stay on topic. No one brought up conspiracies except you.
Id suggest folks stop replying to the common derailer and focus on the subject at hand.
I'm not derailing anything. I'm pointing out that these discussions tend to have accusations and conspiracies, and that affects the responses that can be productive.
Please stay on topic. No one brought up conspiracies except you.
I would also note (as I think I did in the earlier thread) that it is a very distinct possibility that the team knows there are changes to AI behavior, but doesn’t know why that has occurred. Perhaps they have a sense, perhaps not—but assuming this is an intended change is premature.
Changing something that might have a knock-on effect—including some unintended knock-on effects—is a more likely possibility in my opinion. If we are to believe the expansiveness of the alterations made to the game engine since last summer (a full year of tweaks), it isn’t hard to imagine AI behavior getting entangled in those fairly fundamental changes.
I would also note (as I think I did in the earlier thread) that it is a very distinct possibility that the team knows there are changes to AI behavior, but doesn’t know why that has occurred. Perhaps they have a sense, perhaps not—but assuming this is an intended change is premature.
Changing something that might have a knock-on effect—including some unintended knock-on effects—is a more likely possibility in my opinion. If we are to believe the expansiveness of the changes made to the game engine since last summer (a full year of tweaks), it isn’t hard to imagine AI behavior getting entangled in those fairly fundamental changes.
Dr. Zola
Exactly, I make no assumption (nor would I ask anyone else to) about the reason for these changes. I don't want to jump ahead, I don't think they were done on purpose it may well have just been an update that changed the clearly very complicated set up of AI. I spoke to @DNA3000 who seems to think the AI is something the devs would rather leave well alone, since it's probably immensely complex. To me, that seems to suggest some other update to another aspect of the game else likely accidentally tweaked the AI rather than an intentional one. What I'm refuting, is that all of these changes are a coincidence or people are reading into it.
There are a great many reasons these changes have happened, not necessarily all with ill intent. Kabam deserve the opportunity to explain it and that is what I hope this thread has given them. There's no need for conspiracies, accusations or anything. The question has been asked, let's hope for an answer. And even if there isn't an answer, just a response of "We hear you guys that you are experiencing these changes, we will look into it." I would be over the moon with that.
I'm no programmer and I don't know how the INPUT REFRACTOR works, but is it possible that when they adjusted the timings on our inputs that certain AI timings we were used to were also INADVERTENTLY adjusted? I've personally seen quicker recovery times from opponents being knocked down, or even quicker reactions to my dash attacks. Timing seems like it potentially matched up with some of these new fixes. Thoughts?
I would also note (as I think I did in the earlier thread) that it is a very distinct possibility that the team knows there are changes to AI behavior, but doesn’t know why that has occurred. Perhaps they have a sense, perhaps not—but assuming this is an intended change is premature.
Changing something that might have a knock-on effect—including some unintended knock-on effects—is a more likely possibility in my opinion. If we are to believe the expansiveness of the alterations made to the game engine since last summer (a full year of tweaks), it isn’t hard to imagine AI behavior getting entangled in those fairly fundamental changes.
I’ll be the one to say this bc I don’t care about kabam. They think they’re smart. End compensation and make AI stubborn especially in time sensitive matches like AQ, increasing the likelihood of either A: timing out and losing half health or B: gettin pinned to the wall to where you’re forced to attack and push them to a special you can’t dex or worse, sp3. We run map 7 epic mods and I have NEVER timed out in AQ fights until recently and it’s ridiculous. I let my alliance know after this AW if these bugs are not fixed I’m out and I’m just done with the game.
Judge me on this as well, I’ve dropped easily $2,000 on this game in a year because I consider it one of my hobbies I enjoy (makes me feel better about spending money haha) but screw this…I’m not supporting a company that almost forces people to spend money and resources on items that are unrealistically achievable from regular game play
I’ll be the one to say this bc I don’t care about kabam. They think they’re smart. End compensation and make AI stubborn especially in time sensitive matches like AQ, increasing the likelihood of either A: timing out and losing half health or B: gettin pinned to the wall to where you’re forced to attack and push them to a special you can’t dex or worse, sp3. We run map 7 epic mods and I have NEVER timed out in AQ fights until recently and it’s ridiculous. I let my alliance know after this AW if these bugs are not fixed I’m out and I’m just done with the game.
Judge me on this as well, I’ve dropped easily $2,000 on this game in a year because I consider it one of my hobbies I enjoy (makes me feel better about spending money haha) but screw this…I’m not supporting a company that almost forces people to spend money and resources on items that are unrealistically achievable from regular game play
I completely understand where you’re coming from, trust me I feel the frustration too.
But I don’t think they’ve made the AI stubborn right when the compensation ends, for starters we know these issues started back before November 2021 and compensation has only just stopped. This is much further back than just a change they’ve done in the last few weeks.
Everything in the game is based on numbers and calculations.
We have visual examples of miscalculations.
We see them in the opening more then 10 crystals at a time. If a similar type of miscalculation is occuring somewhere else in the game... Say on parry timing, Dex, recovery timing, ect., we would never be able to confirm it, but we would most certainly feel it and I can most certainly see how that could translate into many of the problems we are seeing.
I'm not saying it's intentional, it could be something in Unity with the way they are making a call to the game engine.
I had recently worked on a project where a program was returning slightly off from what was expected calculations. It turned out to be something really simple, one function was rounding numbers 2 decimal places but we're using 4 everywhere else. The result was a close, but not quite right calculation.
To me it is not that complicated and also apparent what has happened when you follow the timeline of events.
A game engine update leads to some players being unable to adequately react to some AI timings/movements.
The AI then changes and becomes noticeably passive which is later improved on but is not what the ai was pre engine update.
Refractor is released and people once again notice changes in the AI timings/movements.
To me that clearly says adjustments were made to the AI to compensate for the input issues arising from the engine update and now with the refractor being out the AI has once again been adjusted to be closer to what it was pre update.
Personally I do not encounter AI that refuses to throw specials anymore than I did 4 years ago. Sometimes you can get stuck in a loop (just like you have always been able to) where the AI will not use a special unless you break that loop by changing what you are doing while trying to bait; like hitting into block or knocking them down.
To me it is not that complicated and also apparent what has happened when you follow the timeline of events.
A game engine update leads to some players being unable to adequately react to some AI timings/movements.
The AI then changes and becomes noticeably passive which is later improved on but is not what the ai was pre engine update.
Refractor is released and people once again notice changes in the AI timings/movements.
To me that clearly says adjustments were made to the AI to compensate for the input issues arising from the engine update and now with the refractor being out the AI has once again been adjusted to be closer to what it was pre update.
Personally I do not encounter AI that refuses to throw specials anymore than I did 4 years ago. Sometimes you can get stuck in a loop (just like you have always been able to) where the AI will not use a special unless you break that loop by changing what you are doing while trying to bait; like hitting into block or knocking them down.
To me it is not that complicated and also apparent what has happened when you follow the timeline of events.
A game engine update leads to some players being unable to adequately react to some AI timings/movements.
The AI then changes and becomes noticeably passive which is later improved on but is not what the ai was pre engine update.
Refractor is released and people once again notice changes in the AI timings/movements.
To me that clearly says adjustments were made to the AI to compensate for the input issues arising from the engine update and now with the refractor being out the AI has once again been adjusted to be closer to what it was pre update.
Personally I do not encounter AI that refuses to throw specials anymore than I did 4 years ago. Sometimes you can get stuck in a loop (just like you have always been able to) where the AI will not use a special unless you break that loop by changing what you are doing while trying to bait; like hitting into block or knocking them down.
It’s a theory for sure. Again, this thread is less about the cause and more about the communication.
Agreed on all of your points @BitterSteel as I have had all of those issues happening at some point as well. In addition several new issues have surfaced with the new input system and we have yet to have a response on that either. The recovery time after finishing a combo has effectively been reduced to 0, Various input issues, and the list goes on and on.
More disappointing than the inconsistencies in A.I. and inputs is the lack of communication. For those of us that spend way too many hours a day playing this game it feels disheartening to hear nothing when we voice our concerns.
@Kabam Miike@Kabam Zibiit please give us some meaningful communication. This was a commitment that was made several times and now with the loss of dev diaries the communication is even more atrocious than before. There are more issues with the game at this point than any other save 12.0. This should equate to more communication than at any other. Please help us by giving us a little insight into even what you may be thinking as you read this. We know you play the game too. Are you having these issues as well?
Transparency and authenticity go such a long way to building rapport and it would be amazing for us to even get more I sight into your own experience with the game. Are you seeing A.I. changes? Has your inputs been inconsistent on the new beta?
I would also note (as I think I did in the earlier thread) that it is a very distinct possibility that the team knows there are changes to AI behavior, but doesn’t know why that has occurred. Perhaps they have a sense, perhaps not—but assuming this is an intended change is premature.
Changing something that might have a knock-on effect—including some unintended knock-on effects—is a more likely possibility in my opinion. If we are to believe the expansiveness of the alterations made to the game engine since last summer (a full year of tweaks), it isn’t hard to imagine AI behavior getting entangled in those fairly fundamental changes.
Dr. Zola
Adding to the complexity of the situation is that a lot of different things possibly completely unrelated to each other (in terms of how the game functions) is being bundled up in "AI." For example, the AI being able to counter us quicker than before might not be an AI thing: it might be a completely different change related to game timing. In other words, the AI could be impacted by things like game timing changes just as much as the players are: the AI is "deciding" to do things in exactly the same way as it used to, but changes to the game engine have caused those changes to propagate to the game faster than before. You could stare at the AI code for a million years and not see that sort of effect.
The way the computer controls champions has definitely changed over time in ways impossible to connect with anything other than deliberate changes to the AI decision system. However, it is unclear to me what things I'm seeing are due to the AI engine changing, what is due to the game engine changing generally, what might be subtle interaction changes resulting from strange interactions between the two. For example, I have a *feeling* that the problems I'm seeing with dash back are a combination of the visual cues I used to use being subtly altered due to timing changes (i.e. the time between when I see the cues I used to rely upon and when I'm required to submit input has shortened - which could happen even if the "under-the-hood" timing for evade hasn't changed) combined with the input system not responding to the way I dash back in the same way it used to (the input system seems to be more sensitive to crisp inputs and more slow to recognize extended accelerating inputs).
Because the game doesn't respond to inputs in the same way, the AI in turn isn't seeing the same behavior from players, even if the players think they are still behaving in the same way. I suspect at least some of the AI behavior changes can trace to this, which would also explain why some people see significant AI changes and others don't. The same thing is true with regard to the input system changes themselves: some players experience substantial issues while others don't. This is probably due to the fact that different people play the game in subtly different ways, and some are impacted more than others by the new timing. In return, those people are less impacted by AI behavior changes due to subtle changes in player inputs to the game, which are almost certainly inputs to the AI system itself.
I would also note (as I think I did in the earlier thread) that it is a very distinct possibility that the team knows there are changes to AI behavior, but doesn’t know why that has occurred. Perhaps they have a sense, perhaps not—but assuming this is an intended change is premature.
Changing something that might have a knock-on effect—including some unintended knock-on effects—is a more likely possibility in my opinion. If we are to believe the expansiveness of the alterations made to the game engine since last summer (a full year of tweaks), it isn’t hard to imagine AI behavior getting entangled in those fairly fundamental changes.
Dr. Zola
Adding to the complexity of the situation is that a lot of different things possibly completely unrelated to each other (in terms of how the game functions) is being bundled up in "AI." For example, the AI being able to counter us quicker than before might not be an AI thing: it might be a completely different change related to game timing. In other words, the AI could be impacted by things like game timing changes just as much as the players are: the AI is "deciding" to do things in exactly the same way as it used to, but changes to the game engine have caused those changes to propagate to the game faster than before. You could stare at the AI code for a million years and not see that sort of effect.
The way the computer controls champions has definitely changed over time in ways impossible to connect with anything other than deliberate changes to the AI decision system. However, it is unclear to me what things I'm seeing are due to the AI engine changing, what is due to the game engine changing generally, what might be subtle interaction changes resulting from strange interactions between the two. For example, I have a *feeling* that the problems I'm seeing with dash back are a combination of the visual cues I used to use being subtly altered due to timing changes (i.e. the time between when I see the cues I used to rely upon and when I'm required to submit input has shortened - which could happen even if the "under-the-hood" timing for evade hasn't changed) combined with the input system not responding to the way I dash back in the same way it used to (the input system seems to be more sensitive to crisp inputs and more slow to recognize extended accelerating inputs).
Because the game doesn't respond to inputs in the same way, the AI in turn isn't seeing the same behavior from players, even if the players think they are still behaving in the same way. I suspect at least some of the AI behavior changes can trace to this, which would also explain why some people see significant AI changes and others don't. The same thing is true with regard to the input system changes themselves: some players experience substantial issues while others don't. This is probably due to the fact that different people play the game in subtly different ways, and some are impacted more than others by the new timing. In return, those people are less impacted by AI behavior changes due to subtle changes in player inputs to the game, which are almost certainly inputs to the AI system itself.
Interesting stuff as ever!
If this were the case, what do you think our chances of ever getting something “fixed” is? (I put fixed in quotes because as you say, it’s not like something is broken, just that it’s changed)
It seems to me you’re suggesting that it would be hard to even know there were changes, let alone track down what caused them. Is this something that Kabam could try and tweak? Or is there just a risk of it getting even worse, and this is just something we are going to have to get used to?
Neither option seems great, either we have to to relearn the entire game, unlearn muscle memory of intercepts, dash backs, baiting specials. Or there will be a lengthy investigation with seemingly a small chance of success.
And with issues unrelated to game timing, I mean not all are just the AI deciding to do the same thing as you suggest, are they? I feel that could explain some, but not all. Like stuttering on block, and throwing specials when we dash in to special intercept. That’s a noticeable change that the AI isn’t just doing the same as before but timing has changed.
Like, I suppose with specials, that’s just linked to a likelihood of the AI to throw specials right? Otherwise how could we have taunt as an ability. Is there an argument for just tweaking up the AI’s likelihood to throw a special?
And the same with the “aggressiveness” of the AI. Nodes like aggressive, oscillate and others mess with the aggressive or passive side of the AI. Meaning Kabam must be able to do something simple to tweak that. I don’t know if it’s as simple as usually it’s “aggression:5” then oscillate makes it switch between “aggression:3 and 9”. But there may be stats like chance to block, chance to dash in, chance to throw specials etc. So these stats can all be tweaked to nudge things back to usual.
And again, I’m not saying they have ever been changed to cause these issues. Just that something is in turn affected them, so is there an argument for nudging them up to recreate what the AI was like before whatever changes? I’m just trying to envision what a “fix” would be.
Comments
1) Let your customers know you have read their feedback.
"Thank you for letting us know, we have report this to the development team an investigation"
2) Actually report back to the development team.
3) Development team investigation and work on fix
4) Continue communication between the development team and the customers (players) on a regular schedule. Even with simple message like
"Just want to let you know we are still investigation and working on the fix"
That would be at least a good start, in a way similar to how Kabam originally communicated regarding the input issue (sadly it didn't continue and the "fix" didn't fix anything either)
Dr. Zola
Changing something that might have a knock-on effect—including some unintended knock-on effects—is a more likely possibility in my opinion. If we are to believe the expansiveness of the alterations made to the game engine since last summer (a full year of tweaks), it isn’t hard to imagine AI behavior getting entangled in those fairly fundamental changes.
Dr. Zola
There are a great many reasons these changes have happened, not necessarily all with ill intent. Kabam deserve the opportunity to explain it and that is what I hope this thread has given them. There's no need for conspiracies, accusations or anything. The question has been asked, let's hope for an answer. And even if there isn't an answer, just a response of "We hear you guys that you are experiencing these changes, we will look into it." I would be over the moon with that.
Judge me on this as well, I’ve dropped easily $2,000 on this game in a year because I consider it one of my hobbies I enjoy (makes me feel better about spending money haha) but screw this…I’m not supporting a company that almost forces people to spend money and resources on items that are unrealistically achievable from regular game play
But I don’t think they’ve made the AI stubborn right when the compensation ends, for starters we know these issues started back before November 2021 and compensation has only just stopped. This is much further back than just a change they’ve done in the last few weeks.
We have visual examples of miscalculations.
We see them in the opening more then 10 crystals at a time. If a similar type of miscalculation is occuring somewhere else in the game... Say on parry timing, Dex, recovery timing, ect., we would never be able to confirm it, but we would most certainly feel it and I can most certainly see how that could translate into many of the problems we are seeing.
I'm not saying it's intentional, it could be something in Unity with the way they are making a call to the game engine.
I had recently worked on a project where a program was returning slightly off from what was expected calculations. It turned out to be something really simple, one function was rounding numbers 2 decimal places but we're using 4 everywhere else. The result was a close, but not quite right calculation.
A game engine update leads to some players being unable to adequately react to some AI timings/movements.
The AI then changes and becomes noticeably passive which is later improved on but is not what the ai was pre engine update.
Refractor is released and people once again notice changes in the AI timings/movements.
To me that clearly says adjustments were made to the AI to compensate for the input issues arising from the engine update and now with the refractor being out the AI has once again been adjusted to be closer to what it was pre update.
Personally I do not encounter AI that refuses to throw specials anymore than I did 4 years ago. Sometimes you can get stuck in a loop (just like you have always been able to) where the AI will not use a special unless you break that loop by changing what you are doing while trying to bait; like hitting into block or knocking them down.
More disappointing than the inconsistencies in A.I. and inputs is the lack of communication. For those of us that spend way too many hours a day playing this game it feels disheartening to hear nothing when we voice our concerns.
@Kabam Miike @Kabam Zibiit please give us some meaningful communication. This was a commitment that was made several times and now with the loss of dev diaries the communication is even more atrocious than before. There are more issues with the game at this point than any other save 12.0. This should equate to more communication than at any other. Please help us by giving us a little insight into even what you may be thinking as you read this. We know you play the game too. Are you having these issues as well?
Transparency and authenticity go such a long way to building rapport and it would be amazing for us to even get more I sight into your own experience with the game. Are you seeing A.I. changes? Has your inputs been inconsistent on the new beta?
The way the computer controls champions has definitely changed over time in ways impossible to connect with anything other than deliberate changes to the AI decision system. However, it is unclear to me what things I'm seeing are due to the AI engine changing, what is due to the game engine changing generally, what might be subtle interaction changes resulting from strange interactions between the two. For example, I have a *feeling* that the problems I'm seeing with dash back are a combination of the visual cues I used to use being subtly altered due to timing changes (i.e. the time between when I see the cues I used to rely upon and when I'm required to submit input has shortened - which could happen even if the "under-the-hood" timing for evade hasn't changed) combined with the input system not responding to the way I dash back in the same way it used to (the input system seems to be more sensitive to crisp inputs and more slow to recognize extended accelerating inputs).
Because the game doesn't respond to inputs in the same way, the AI in turn isn't seeing the same behavior from players, even if the players think they are still behaving in the same way. I suspect at least some of the AI behavior changes can trace to this, which would also explain why some people see significant AI changes and others don't. The same thing is true with regard to the input system changes themselves: some players experience substantial issues while others don't. This is probably due to the fact that different people play the game in subtly different ways, and some are impacted more than others by the new timing. In return, those people are less impacted by AI behavior changes due to subtle changes in player inputs to the game, which are almost certainly inputs to the AI system itself.
If this were the case, what do you think our chances of ever getting something “fixed” is? (I put fixed in quotes because as you say, it’s not like something is broken, just that it’s changed)
It seems to me you’re suggesting that it would be hard to even know there were changes, let alone track down what caused them. Is this something that Kabam could try and tweak? Or is there just a risk of it getting even worse, and this is just something we are going to have to get used to?
Neither option seems great, either we have to to relearn the entire game, unlearn muscle memory of intercepts, dash backs, baiting specials. Or there will be a lengthy investigation with seemingly a small chance of success.
And with issues unrelated to game timing, I mean not all are just the AI deciding to do the same thing as you suggest, are they? I feel that could explain some, but not all. Like stuttering on block, and throwing specials when we dash in to special intercept. That’s a noticeable change that the AI isn’t just doing the same as before but timing has changed.
Like, I suppose with specials, that’s just linked to a likelihood of the AI to throw specials right? Otherwise how could we have taunt as an ability. Is there an argument for just tweaking up the AI’s likelihood to throw a special?
And the same with the “aggressiveness” of the AI. Nodes like aggressive, oscillate and others mess with the aggressive or passive side of the AI. Meaning Kabam must be able to do something simple to tweak that. I don’t know if it’s as simple as usually it’s “aggression:5” then oscillate makes it switch between “aggression:3 and 9”. But there may be stats like chance to block, chance to dash in, chance to throw specials etc. So these stats can all be tweaked to nudge things back to usual.
And again, I’m not saying they have ever been changed to cause these issues. Just that something is in turn affected them, so is there an argument for nudging them up to recreate what the AI was like before whatever changes? I’m just trying to envision what a “fix” would be.