Juggernaut Buff: Definitely a Banger But...

21Eggatron21Eggatron Member Posts: 103 ★★
Hello forums (and Kabam),

So I've been hoping for a Juggernaut buff for a while now, (yes because he didn't fit anywhere in the meta, but also because I thought the champ deserved better seeing as he's such a beast in the comics). I'm THRILLED with his buff, but there is literally one issue I have that's a pretty big problem overall for the champ.

Things I like:
- Big Damage
- Simple to Use
- Excellent Buff Control
- Free intercepts thanks to using block + Unstoppable as a Counterpunch.
- FUN

The one thing I don't like is that his Gem gets removed too easily and in situations that realistically he should run right over.

If you're unfamiliar with how his new kit works, it's all centered around his Gem. The Gem gets removed when Juggernaut is inflicted with ANY Non-Damaging Debuff.

This includes (but is not limited to):
- Armor Break
- Weakness
- Fatigue
- Slow
- Petrify
- Exhaustion
- Dark Tide
- Living Abyss
- Decelerate
- Spectre
- Disorient
- Taunt
- Infuriate
- Heal Block
- Power Drain/Steal/Burn
- Wither
- Trauma

Some of these make sense; common top Science champs are meant to counter him. The problem is that Non-Damaging Debuff is so broad that it makes him really hard to use in certain situations and against champs his class is meant to counter.

A quick list of Cosmics that even when using Juggernaut perfectly will either stall or completely ruin his rotation:
- Air Walker
- Angela
- Annihilus
- Captain Marvel (Movie)
- Cosmic Ghost Rider (Starts without the Gem, will regain after a Special Attack)
- Hercules
- Ikaris
- Knull
- Silver Surfer
- Super Skrull
- Terrax
- Vision Aarkus

Several of which are common War Defenders OR in several people's Battlegrounds Decks

Now, the argument could be made that you can just use basic combos and Special 3s, but let's face it; a Mystic who can't use their ideal rotation against tough Cosmics is a deterrent to most players looking for their next R3/R4 candidate.

WHAT I PROPOSE IS ONE OF TWO THINGS

Number 1: Change it so that only certain Non-Damaging Debuffs remove the Gem (such as, ones fairly unique to Science champs). My personal choices would be Slow, Decelerate, Fatigue and Exhaustion.

Number 2: Change it so that the Gem cannot be removed when Juggernaut has Class Advantage (Rxkid75 in Vega's Discord suggested this).


I honestly think Option 1 would make Juggernaut an actual relevant defender as well as attacker, but I can absolutely live with Option 2 as it means he's strong against the tougher defenders of the Cosmic Class.

To end on a positive note, I'll just say this. If I ever get the 6 Star, I will use my Mystic 3 to 4 Rank Up Gem I've been saving from Act 7 Exploration back in March. He's that much of a fit for me.

I hope this reaches the right people's eyes, because the buff is really good but that one drawback is so limiting.

P.S. People struggling to maintain Max Momentum, I've found it's really easy if you Medium, Light, Light, Light, hold block until the opponent dashes in and use your Unstoppable to counter their hit, repeat until Special 2.
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Comments

  • 21Eggatron21Eggatron Member Posts: 103 ★★

    Actually makes alot of sense!

    Thank you ❤
  • Cyborg17Cyborg17 Member Posts: 124

    Hello forums (and Kabam),

    So I've been hoping for a Juggernaut buff for a while now, (yes because he didn't fit anywhere in the meta, but also because I thought the champ deserved better seeing as he's such a beast in the comics). I'm THRILLED with his buff, but there is literally one issue I have that's a pretty big problem overall for the champ.

    Things I like:
    - Big Damage
    - Simple to Use
    - Excellent Buff Control
    - Free intercepts thanks to using block + Unstoppable as a Counterpunch.
    - FUN

    The one thing I don't like is that his Gem gets removed too easily and in situations that realistically he should run right over.

    If you're unfamiliar with how his new kit works, it's all centered around his Gem. The Gem gets removed when Juggernaut is inflicted with ANY Non-Damaging Debuff.

    This includes (but is not limited to):
    - Armor Break
    - Weakness
    - Fatigue
    - Slow
    - Petrify
    - Exhaustion
    - Dark Tide
    - Living Abyss
    - Decelerate
    - Spectre
    - Disorient
    - Taunt
    - Infuriate
    - Heal Block
    - Power Drain/Steal/Burn
    - Wither
    - Trauma

    Some of these make sense; common top Science champs are meant to counter him. The problem is that Non-Damaging Debuff is so broad that it makes him really hard to use in certain situations and against champs his class is meant to counter.

    A quick list of Cosmics that even when using Juggernaut perfectly will either stall or completely ruin his rotation:
    - Air Walker
    - Angela
    - Annihilus
    - Captain Marvel (Movie)
    - Cosmic Ghost Rider (Starts without the Gem, will regain after a Special Attack)
    - Hercules
    - Ikaris
    - Knull
    - Silver Surfer
    - Super Skrull
    - Terrax
    - Vision Aarkus

    Several of which are common War Defenders OR in several people's Battlegrounds Decks

    Now, the argument could be made that you can just use basic combos and Special 3s, but let's face it; a Mystic who can't use their ideal rotation against tough Cosmics is a deterrent to most players looking for their next R3/R4 candidate.

    WHAT I PROPOSE IS ONE OF TWO THINGS

    Number 1: Change it so that only certain Non-Damaging Debuffs remove the Gem (such as, ones fairly unique to Science champs). My personal choices would be Slow, Decelerate, Fatigue and Exhaustion.

    Number 2: Change it so that the Gem cannot be removed when Juggernaut has Class Advantage (Rxkid75 in Vega's Discord suggested this).


    I honestly think Option 1 would make Juggernaut an actual relevant defender as well as attacker, but I can absolutely live with Option 2 as it means he's strong against the tougher defenders of the Cosmic Class.

    To end on a positive note, I'll just say this. If I ever get the 6 Star, I will use my Mystic 3 to 4 Rank Up Gem I've been saving from Act 7 Exploration back in March. He's that much of a fit for me.

    I hope this reaches the right people's eyes, because the buff is really good but that one drawback is so limiting.

    P.S. People struggling to maintain Max Momentum, I've found it's really easy if you Medium, Light, Light, Light, hold block until the opponent dashes in and use your Unstoppable to counter their hit, repeat until Special 2.

    Totally agree with you ! That's why I will not up him. And he should start fights with 3 unstoppable on him, at least as a defender.
  • Primis00Primis00 Member Posts: 269 ★★★
    Fully agree. Having it be any non damaging debuff is waaaay to oppressive for him offensively and also makes him way to easy to fight as a defender aswell in my opinion. I understand stuns and such should do it but because of how broad it is it really sucks to use him in so many fights. He is extremely fun to play now, i love the playstyle but they definetely made the gem drawback too much.
  • Hector_1475Hector_1475 Member Posts: 1,794 ★★★★★
    Imagine getting a buff THIS good, especially considering the level of the rest "buffs" we go this year and still writing an essay practically complaining about it...

    Man, I'm just THRILLED he didn't get the JF "buff" treatment... Now he is both fun & usable. I wouldn't ask for more.
  • Primis00Primis00 Member Posts: 269 ★★★
    Oh and dont forget about the nodes. There are very many nodes that places a debuff on you. I just feel like there will be too many situations where he seems like an insanely good option at first, Only to be shut down because of his extremely oppressive drawback.

    I think maybe they could make it so non damaging debuffs basically "nullify" 1 or 2 unstoppable buffs when they appear or prevent him from triggering a new unstoppable for a short duration, maybe not full duration of the debuff.
  • VendemiaireVendemiaire Member Posts: 2,178 ★★★★★
    I fully agree. Make it Slow, Exhaustion, and Weakness only.
  • KpatrixKpatrix Member Posts: 1,055 ★★★
    Even a simple parry stun removes his gem, any champ can counter him easily.
  • BulmktBulmkt Member Posts: 1,615 ★★★★
    edited August 2022
    Excellent summary. Hope someone at Kabam land reads your post.

    Back to Juggernaut. I read when his SP3 is used the Crimson Gem of Cyrrotak can’t be removed for 20 seconds. Maybe this then should apply to his SP1 and SP2 with a lower time interval?

    Say 5 seconds for SP1

    10 seconds for SP2

    that then sort of eliminates the non-damaging debuff issue
  • GrandOldKaiGrandOldKai Member Posts: 788 ★★★★
    edited August 2022
    Yeah... I do like the buff offensively (he has a somewhat low-stress play style of "build to 10 charges, SP2")

    But defensively he's just too easy to shut off compared to his more threatening (by comparison) old self.

    With his old self, if he had Unstoppable up you absolutely could not just Parry stun him at all.

    I mean, he wasn't very difficult to counter then either but now it's even easier to counter him as:

    - it's likely the AI will just cause his Unstoppable buffs to drop off fast
    - some champs have very easy access to non-damaging debuffs (mostly Science, but even some Cosmics... and Techs with Heal Block)
  • MattDRKMattDRK Member Posts: 194
    Totally agree with this, also it would be better for him if he gain unstoppable buffs while hitting opponent's block (makes more sense for his unblockable charge) and remove or decrease the cooldown after he use his unblockable against the opponent's block. These changes need happen for he become a real "Unstoppable Force".
  • CassyCassy Member Posts: 1,078 ★★★
    Is this buff Subject to rebalance in 6 month?
  • TerraTerra Member Posts: 8,329 ★★★★★
    Cassy said:

    Is this buff Subject to rebalance in 6 month?

    Hopefully
  • 21Eggatron21Eggatron Member Posts: 103 ★★
    Noticing a lot of people asking for additional things to make him a tougher defender.

    Remember what John said; they have to be careful with buffs of older champs because that's who newer players will be fighting until they're uncollected at the absolute earliest. They have to tow a line between making him easily beaten by newer players but also a strong champ for older players.

    However, and I think over time this will get mentioned more, balancing it for the beginning should not make him this bad for late game cosmics. It's too much of an oversight that was intended but will probably get more attention as people actually try those fights.
  • ŁŤÇŁŤÇ Member Posts: 351 ★★★
    I got ridiculed on this board before he came out, because I had wished he'd be a legit defensive nightmare. I wanted him slow immune, and just be feared.

    Instead, they gave us a glass cannon. He has so many weaknesses now. His flash definitely shines brighter than his playing in-game.
  • Nalak8Nalak8 Member Posts: 387 ★★★
    So I’m guessing he’s no good for suicide?
  • Wicket329Wicket329 Member Posts: 3,329 ★★★★★
    Nalak8 said:

    So I’m guessing he’s no good for suicide?

    He actually is good for them. His 25% damage resist while the gem is active means he heals a small amount off the poison.
  • TheLegend27TheLegend27 Member Posts: 1,316 ★★★★★
    Agreed. I've been asking for option 1 since 10 minutes after his updated spotlight released. Thematically, it doesn't even make sense that some non-damaging debuffs shut off the gem (like armor break, for example)
  • Foster04Foster04 Member Posts: 90
    Jane Foster actually got a pretty good buff if you run suicides and the petrify mastery, her stun lock is quite useful and her damage is good. Basic attacks all hit hard when they all crit on a stunned opponent.
    As for this change, I think it would be better to just limit it to armor break immune; pretty much all the cosmics you mentioned are countering him due tk armor breaks. This would fix it well enough. There's always gonna be a champion that can counter another champion in a different class.
  • mbracembrace Member Posts: 886 ★★★
    It seems like they should just add “except for armor break”, and that would solve 90% of these issues against cosmic champs. Unfortunately, I don’t believe Kabam has ever re-buffed a champ immediately after releasing the buff. The Hood buff was pulled due to major backlash, and it was a long time before we saw him buffed again.
  • 21Eggatron21Eggatron Member Posts: 103 ★★
    mbrace said:

    It seems like they should just add “except for armor break”, and that would solve 90% of these issues against cosmic champs. Unfortunately, I don’t believe Kabam has ever re-buffed a champ immediately after releasing the buff. The Hood buff was pulled due to major backlash, and it was a long time before we saw him buffed again.

    This wouldn't be enough unfortunately. The case example needs to be Knull and Hercules. If Juggernaut can't take those two on because of their unique non damaging debuffs, then it's a problem.
  • BigPoppaCBONEBigPoppaCBONE Member Posts: 2,386 ★★★★★

    mbrace said:

    It seems like they should just add “except for armor break”, and that would solve 90% of these issues against cosmic champs. Unfortunately, I don’t believe Kabam has ever re-buffed a champ immediately after releasing the buff. The Hood buff was pulled due to major backlash, and it was a long time before we saw him buffed again.

    This wouldn't be enough unfortunately. The case example needs to be Knull and Hercules. If Juggernaut can't take those two on because of their unique non damaging debuffs, then it's a problem.
    Any non-damaging debuff by any class is too much. Hopefully they'll actually take a look at it and do something. At least exclude cosmics.
  • Webby72Webby72 Member Posts: 255 ★★
    I like the idea of a line something like:

    ‘when facing cosmic champions, the crimson gem of cyttorak grows stronger, temporarily reducing the ability accuracy of opponents by 100% whenever they attempt to land a personal debuff’

    This removes his complete inability to counter cosmic champions while still being vulnerable to nodes so as to not overtune him too much. Parry stun is also (to my knowledge) not considered a personal debuff, so he still stays relatively simple on defence for newer accounts.
  • VedisukeVedisuke Member Posts: 166 ★★
    Up
  • CastromãoCastromão Member Posts: 7
    I do not agree with the complaints. Let's see, selfishly, a little agreed: we all like champions to have incredible abilities (especially if we have that fighter).

    Trying to be a little more objective, I see it from another perspective. Summary:
    1) The character has been improved. This is clear and we all agree.
    2) Character upgrade is based on gem. With the gem active, he is literally unstoppable.
    3) If the character is absolutely unstoppable (or as annoyingly unstoppable as Kingpin or Annihilus many times), it can cause a major imbalance in the game and this fighter would become almost beyond Tier God.
    4) That excessive force is counteracted with a series of penalties that, in my opinion, balance his game by preventing him from being Tier God (but still very good).
    5) The fact that his SP3 sets the gem for 20 seconds allows him to turn around fights that start with Juggernaut on the ropes (by debuff nodes or by debuffs applied by his opponents).

    In my opinion, with the improvement has been achieved:
    1) Give utility to an underrated fighter (and with a much lower 'strength' than in the comics).
    2) The enhancement is easy to use and understand.
    3) That the character is especially useful for newer players in the game, who have surely already achieved a Juggernaut of 4 or 5 stars.
    4) That the higher level players consider using this character, which is undoubtedly now quite fun to play.
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