Gonna try again in simpler terms…. I’m not sure why this is considered so complex. Progression gated content just needs to spawn potions for the champs that they are designed for. The entire economy doesn’t have to be reworked, there just needs to be an uptick in where L5/L6 potions can be earned in game and it doesn’t have to be in gross volumes either 5 scattered throughout EQ a month would do it.
That wouldn't do it though? Maybe (and that's a HUGE maybe) right this moment, yes that'd be a serviceable fix. But seven stars are on the way, six star R5s are going to slowly start really popping up and be regulars for questing. A few scattered 10k heals are going to do anything for that.
The entire idea with the overhaul is to fix, and preferably future proof to some extent, the system. Your "solution" would (at best) be a band aid for a couple of months, and realistically I don't think it'd even be that. So yeah, it's a bit more complicated than you want to give it credit for. This is why Kabam doesn't just listen to everything the community says, because takes like this exist.
It would if they create L7 pots for 7stars and those are made available through playing content designed for them
And how do you balance L7 potions around being purchasable? What is the right cost for something that might be incredibly OP to something lower than a 7star. Maybe the solution is making it only usable for 7stars, but then do L5s or L6s need to only be usable by 6 stars? What if whatever additional mechanic 7stars have as attackers changes how potions might effect them?
You’re trying to simplify something that isn’t simple. To my point earlier, people that have no idea how game development works trying to give solutions to game developers. Community insight is extremely helpful, but people that try to act like Kabam is stupid because they don’t just have an obvious solution is exhausting. You only think it’s obvious because you only see what you want to see.
Or you only make the items available with certain progression tiers tied to Champion Rarity based on the content those champions are designed for.
That still does not get rid of the question of whether or not they'd be overpowered for six stars. Just because I might be x progression level doesn't mean I suddenly have to stop using six or five stars, and if certain potions are much stronger for a lower stared champ you end up devaluing having the higher rarity champ in the game.
I understand I'm putting out a fairly extreme hypothetical, but the point is that this is not a black and white simple argument like you're making it out to be. And unfortunately a large portion of the community seems to think it's as simple as you do and so they attack Kabam for it.
Are L6 potions OP for 5stars? I’d recommend looking at the current potion to healthpool scaling to answer your own question there. Saying it’s complicated without knowing that seems to be the same flawed logic just applied in reverse
I'm not saying they are, but are L6 potions good enough for 6 star rank 5s? A boost Rintrah has over 100k health, you're saying a max of 5 L6 potions a month is going to suddenly fix our potion situation?
Again, my point was obviously an extreme hypothetical. Level 7 potions may not be OP for six stars, but who's to say it stops at level 7? Making infinitely scalable resources isn't future proofing, it's a band aid being reapplied over and over.
Maybe, but is it really? When you boost your are supercharging your champ, and there should be a cost to that, like extra healing item use, so so I don’t think boosted champ healthpools change my perspective here as that’s comparing apples and oranges.
Do I think 5 is the ideal number? No, it’s an estimate that would need to be tweaked over time. Do I think EQ can be done itemless, so 5 out of EQ is far, especially compared to 0, why yes to both of those items.
That's fair, I probably shouldn't be using boosts in my arguments. I see where you're coming from, to an extent I see it as a decent "quick fix." However, I stand by infinitely scaling resources isn't future proofing, it would be consistent "quick fixes."
A new rarity of champions coming out is the perfect time to redesign the system, I get that people don't like to wait but the same people that complain about things taking a while to implement are the same people that will complain when something is rushed isn't done perfectly. I think that's my biggest problem for advocating for the "simple solution" - but in that same regard there's nothing saying the long term solution will be a perfect thing either. I'm just trying to drive home the point that people need to stop attacking Kabam because they see it as this super simple thing when in reality, even if it's not as complicated as my hypotheticals, it's far from a "simple fix."
Fair, I’ll close out my part in this too as I see where you are coming from now too on this, with just reiterating that some of the community urging on this topic is because of the topic, how often it’s been raised and for how long it’s been raised.
I dont think they explicitly stated they would be percentage based. All they said was they were redoing pots.
Ad to people saying they don't have the data - every resource used in the game is stored in their databases - they just have to focus in and pull it. It's exactly how they noticed and then analysed the impact of the revive farming.
Sure, they have data, but that data is no longer accurate or useful with the changes to revive farming. Players are likely to be using less, or trying to use less, revives, which means the need for heals goes up. Certainly some heals were used during the revive farming free-for-all, but being able to easily farm revives almost definitely resulted, depending on the fights, in players using less heals because revives were cheaper, easier to farm, and gave more health than the only farmable heals. They’re going to need new data as they see how the change to revives impacts things. Revives are now worth a little more than they were, which means heals are going to be a more important investment into trying to use less revives.
It still doesn't have to take months. with no inkling of a deadline. In the next month alone with 8.2 being released and revive farming nerfed, after the first 3 weeks (when stashes reach expiration) they can get enough data to see how many and which pots people (a) farm (b) buy and (c) use.
And they used old data to decide to nerf the revive farms so not sure why they cant use that same data as a starting point and then build on it with the incoming data for the new landscape. it shouldn't take months to figure out what we have now is not good enough and needs quick adjustments.
The improvements can also be staggered - everything doesn't have to be done at once, but enough to help the player base. No matter what they decide on, 375 health is not enough for anything but 2* and 3*.
It still doesn't have to take months. with no inkling of a deadline.
I've been personally involved in game changes like that. In this game and also in other games. The only changes that take less than a time scale of weeks to happen (outside of bug fixes) are things where only one developer actually needs to work on it, and no one else actually cares what they do. Once judgment comes into play and multiple parties are involved, "weeks" is essentially instantaneous, and "months" is a normal time frame, because a) no one is working on only one thing at a time, so whenever things have to be handed back and forth you generally incur delays on the order of a day or more, and b) you usually have competing judgments in play which aren't about everyone Kumbayaing an obvious solution to a problem everyone agrees upon, but rather negotiated compromises between lots of different competing interests and ideas.
Level 1 to 6 potions stay the same, but new Level 20 health potions restore 20% health. Level 30 restore 30%.
This doesn't overvalue the existing potions and allows them to selectively drop the new potions in non-farmable locations. This way revivegate does not occur with health potions.
Personally, I believe potions should be percentage based, and should have been made percentage based a few years ago, we’re just feeling the fact that they aren’t now, having r4 and r5 six stars with upwards of 90,000 health (assuming Sassy goes that high? Haven’t seen any actual r5 Sassy’s, would be awesome to see actual numbers there!)
My thought process is based heavily upon boosting. We’ve had many health boosts over the years, and especially recently, we’ve had higher accessibility to 30% boosts than ever before.
Using a 30% health or champion boost in a quest with my r4 Rintrah, I would go from 63,403 (base health) to about 82,424 (base health + 30%).
If that Rintrah is to be knocked out, and I use a 20% revive from the Apothecary, he would land around 12,681 health, leaving 50,722 health to be restored. To fully heal that same Rintrah, I would need to use almost 31 level 3 health potions found in RoL (50,722/1650=30.74).
Under a 30% boost, those numbers increase wildly. Using a 20% revive lands at about 16,485 health, leaving 65,939 health to be restored (more than his whole base health pool!) To fully heal this 30% boosted Rintrah, I would need almost 40 (yes, almost ten more potions than originally) level three potions farmed from RoL. (65,939/1650=39.96).
Using percentage based potions would eliminate the need for those ten extra potions, rather than draining my resources because I used a boost 30 minutes ago.
I understand these things take time, but hope that a solution is found sooner rather than later. We should all stay patient and allow the devs to do their jobs. Let’s remember that the community managers don’t manage what changes in game, they’re just messengers between us and them. Let’s have patience and a level of respect and understanding with them too, please.
I also understand that Rintrah has one of the highest health pools in MCOC, and this is a bit of an extreme example. He’s one of my five r4 champions and was the easiest for me to use in this conversation. If my point is unclear in any way, tag me in this thread and I’d be happy to try and explain further.
Re-balancing what is arguably one of the largest areas of the game is not easy, and it takes time.
Out of curiosity, how many months went into assessing and implementing the Apothecary?
A relatively short time, but its overall effect is conservative as well. When you're talking about major changes, they take longer.
Source?
You need a source to support the idea that larger changes take longer to implement? Source is common sense. When you're talking about making significant changes to the overall Potions system, that spreads throughout all content in the game that Potions are used. It doesn't take a PhD to understand why that isn't something that is done in a heartbeat. You have to consider many things, and the effects of what you implement. That affects everything from the internal economy to the content that exists and content they will develop.
No i need a source for apothecary required a short time. Although now that i look at it, you said 'relatively short time' which is unhelpful and not the answer the questioner was looking for.
Given the time they said they noticed the numbers being great and the implementation of the Apothecary, that much is pretty logical. What's also not helpful is looking for arguments where there are none.
I went back to their post and it says they noticed it in 2021. It took them a whole year and a half to introduce apothecary. That's not a short time
Let's please not start spreading rumours. First, we have not decided what a change to Potions would look like. We never said the words "Percentage based," though that is a possibility. Let's not set expectations of our own because that only leads to disappointment when those expectations are not met.
Re-balancing what is arguably one of the largest areas of the game is not easy, and it takes time. Potions touch so much of the game, and we need to spend time to analyze Data and explore options.
I can't believe I'm actually saying this but I agree with Kabam Miike. 🤣
Re-balancing what is arguably one of the largest areas of the game is not easy, and it takes time.
Out of curiosity, how many months went into assessing and implementing the Apothecary?
A relatively short time, but its overall effect is conservative as well. When you're talking about major changes, they take longer.
Source?
You need a source to support the idea that larger changes take longer to implement? Source is common sense. When you're talking about making significant changes to the overall Potions system, that spreads throughout all content in the game that Potions are used. It doesn't take a PhD to understand why that isn't something that is done in a heartbeat. You have to consider many things, and the effects of what you implement. That affects everything from the internal economy to the content that exists and content they will develop.
No i need a source for apothecary required a short time. Although now that i look at it, you said 'relatively short time' which is unhelpful and not the answer the questioner was looking for.
Given the time they said they noticed the numbers being great and the implementation of the Apothecary, that much is pretty logical. What's also not helpful is looking for arguments where there are none.
I went back to their post and it says they noticed it in 2021. It took them a whole year and a half to introduce apothecary. That's not a short time
I said the time they noticed the numbers being great.
Personally, I believe potions should be percentage based, and should have been made percentage based a few years ago, we’re just feeling the fact that they aren’t now, having r4 and r5 six stars with upwards of 90,000 health (assuming Sassy goes that high? Haven’t seen any actual r5 Sassy’s, would be awesome to see actual numbers there!)
My thought process is based heavily upon boosting. We’ve had many health boosts over the years, and especially recently, we’ve had higher accessibility to 30% boosts than ever before.
Using a 30% health or champion boost in a quest with my r4 Rintrah, I would go from 63,403 (base health) to about 82,424 (base health + 30%).
If that Rintrah is to be knocked out, and I use a 20% revive from the Apothecary, he would land around 12,681 health, leaving 50,722 health to be restored. To fully heal that same Rintrah, I would need to use almost 31 level 3 health potions found in RoL (50,722/1650=30.74).
Under a 30% boost, those numbers increase wildly. Using a 20% revive lands at about 16,485 health, leaving 65,939 health to be restored (more than his whole base health pool!) To fully heal this 30% boosted Rintrah, I would need almost 40 (yes, almost ten more potions than originally) level three potions farmed from RoL. (65,939/1650=39.96).
Using percentage based potions would eliminate the need for those ten extra potions, rather than draining my resources because I used a boost 30 minutes ago.
I understand these things take time, but hope that a solution is found sooner rather than later. We should all stay patient and allow the devs to do their jobs. Let’s remember that the community managers don’t manage what changes in game, they’re just messengers between us and them. Let’s have patience and a level of respect and understanding with them too, please.
I also understand that Rintrah has one of the highest health pools in MCOC, and this is a bit of an extreme example. He’s one of my five r4 champions and was the easiest for me to use in this conversation. If my point is unclear in any way, tag me in this thread and I’d be happy to try and explain further.
Keep things civil guys! Thanks!
Jinx
I’m not against %based potions, for exactly the argument you and others have made. But I think it’s highly unlikely because of boosts.
I don’t find it unfair for the use of boosts to come with a subsequent cost as we are increasing our champions performance above and beyond what it was designed for. This is why I’ve been arguing for simply making the L5/L6 potions available through simply playing the game, you can add L7s and beyond to that list too. Currently these items are gated behind unit purchasing, and this is the real problem with the ecosystem and why lower level potions are so coveted. If instead they are gated (including gates for unit purchasing) behind progression and made available even at a trickle through content then the situation improves dramatically and potion farming becomes far less attractive , even in ROL.
Re-balancing what is arguably one of the largest areas of the game is not easy, and it takes time.
Out of curiosity, how many months went into assessing and implementing the Apothecary?
A relatively short time, but its overall effect is conservative as well. When you're talking about major changes, they take longer.
Source?
You need a source to support the idea that larger changes take longer to implement? Source is common sense. When you're talking about making significant changes to the overall Potions system, that spreads throughout all content in the game that Potions are used. It doesn't take a PhD to understand why that isn't something that is done in a heartbeat. You have to consider many things, and the effects of what you implement. That affects everything from the internal economy to the content that exists and content they will develop.
No i need a source for apothecary required a short time. Although now that i look at it, you said 'relatively short time' which is unhelpful and not the answer the questioner was looking for.
Given the time they said they noticed the numbers being great and the implementation of the Apothecary, that much is pretty logical. What's also not helpful is looking for arguments where there are none.
I went back to their post and it says they noticed it in 2021. It took them a whole year and a half to introduce apothecary. That's not a short time
I said the time they noticed the numbers being great.
Personally, I believe potions should be percentage based, and should have been made percentage based a few years ago, we’re just feeling the fact that they aren’t now, having r4 and r5 six stars with upwards of 90,000 health (assuming Sassy goes that high? Haven’t seen any actual r5 Sassy’s, would be awesome to see actual numbers there!)
My thought process is based heavily upon boosting. We’ve had many health boosts over the years, and especially recently, we’ve had higher accessibility to 30% boosts than ever before.
Using a 30% health or champion boost in a quest with my r4 Rintrah, I would go from 63,403 (base health) to about 82,424 (base health + 30%).
If that Rintrah is to be knocked out, and I use a 20% revive from the Apothecary, he would land around 12,681 health, leaving 50,722 health to be restored. To fully heal that same Rintrah, I would need to use almost 31 level 3 health potions found in RoL (50,722/1650=30.74).
Under a 30% boost, those numbers increase wildly. Using a 20% revive lands at about 16,485 health, leaving 65,939 health to be restored (more than his whole base health pool!) To fully heal this 30% boosted Rintrah, I would need almost 40 (yes, almost ten more potions than originally) level three potions farmed from RoL. (65,939/1650=39.96).
Using percentage based potions would eliminate the need for those ten extra potions, rather than draining my resources because I used a boost 30 minutes ago.
I understand these things take time, but hope that a solution is found sooner rather than later. We should all stay patient and allow the devs to do their jobs. Let’s remember that the community managers don’t manage what changes in game, they’re just messengers between us and them. Let’s have patience and a level of respect and understanding with them too, please.
I also understand that Rintrah has one of the highest health pools in MCOC, and this is a bit of an extreme example. He’s one of my five r4 champions and was the easiest for me to use in this conversation. If my point is unclear in any way, tag me in this thread and I’d be happy to try and explain further.
Keep things civil guys! Thanks!
Jinx
I’m not against %based potions, for exactly the argument you and others have made. But I think it’s highly unlikely because of boosts.
I don’t find it unfair for the use of boosts to come with a subsequent cost as we are increasing our champions performance above and beyond what it was designed for. This is why I’ve been arguing for simply making the L5/L6 potions available through simply playing the game, you can add L7s and beyond to that list too. Currently these items are gated behind unit purchasing, and this is the real problem with the ecosystem and why lower level potions are so coveted. If instead they are gated (including gates for unit purchasing) behind progression and made available even at a trickle through content then the situation improves dramatically and potion farming becomes far less attractive , even in ROL.
An interesting approach would be percentage potions that are base health only. I could definitely see Kabam going that route. Gives some drawback to using boosts but addresses the current problem of healthpools just being huge to begin with. Once 7 stars are able to be taken to rank 3, which presumably will happen by year end or maybe early 2023, we're going to get 100k+ health pools without boosts.
Comments
And they used old data to decide to nerf the revive farms so not sure why they cant use that same data as a starting point and then build on it with the incoming data for the new landscape. it shouldn't take months to figure out what we have now is not good enough and needs quick adjustments.
The improvements can also be staggered - everything doesn't have to be done at once, but enough to help the player base. No matter what they decide on, 375 health is not enough for anything but 2* and 3*.
This doesn't overvalue the existing potions and allows them to selectively drop the new potions in non-farmable locations. This way revivegate does not occur with health potions.
My thought process is based heavily upon boosting. We’ve had many health boosts over the years, and especially recently, we’ve had higher accessibility to 30% boosts than ever before.
Using a 30% health or champion boost in a quest with my r4 Rintrah, I would go from 63,403 (base health) to about 82,424 (base health + 30%).
If that Rintrah is to be knocked out, and I use a 20% revive from the Apothecary, he would land around 12,681 health, leaving 50,722 health to be restored. To fully heal that same Rintrah, I would need to use almost 31 level 3 health potions found in RoL (50,722/1650=30.74).
Under a 30% boost, those numbers increase wildly. Using a 20% revive lands at about 16,485 health, leaving 65,939 health to be restored (more than his whole base health pool!) To fully heal this 30% boosted Rintrah, I would need almost 40 (yes, almost ten more potions than originally) level three potions farmed from RoL. (65,939/1650=39.96).
Using percentage based potions would eliminate the need for those ten extra potions, rather than draining my resources because I used a boost 30 minutes ago.
I understand these things take time, but hope that a solution is found sooner rather than later. We should all stay patient and allow the devs to do their jobs. Let’s remember that the community managers don’t manage what changes in game, they’re just messengers between us and them. Let’s have patience and a level of respect and understanding with them too, please.
I also understand that Rintrah has one of the highest health pools in MCOC, and this is a bit of an extreme example. He’s one of my five r4 champions and was the easiest for me to use in this conversation. If my point is unclear in any way, tag me in this thread and I’d be happy to try and explain further.
Keep things civil guys! Thanks!
Jinx
I don’t find it unfair for the use of boosts to come with a subsequent cost as we are increasing our champions performance above and beyond what it was designed for. This is why I’ve been arguing for simply making the L5/L6 potions available through simply playing the game, you can add L7s and beyond to that list too. Currently these items are gated behind unit purchasing, and this is the real problem with the ecosystem and why lower level potions are so coveted. If instead they are gated (including gates for unit purchasing) behind progression and made available even at a trickle through content then the situation improves dramatically and potion farming becomes far less attractive , even in ROL.