We are aware that we've been going a little hard on the 5/5 Defenders lately and do plan to tone it down in the future. Unfortunately, we had some catching up to do with the Attackers we've released over the years without any Defenders to match, especially in certain classes.
Defenders are an important addition to the game. It may seem "out of touch" with what the average player wants, but ask any Game Dev and they will tell you, more often than not what the player wants and what they/the game needs is usually wildly different.
Internally and looking forward, over the last month or so we've already adjusted some of our plans for a number of upcoming Champions so that they weren't as strong on Defense. This isn't to say there won't be any 5/5 Defenders coming your way in the future, but you can expect fewer than what you've seen in the last few months.
Separately, having defenders turn off masteries is just lazy design. It's one thing if one champ can do it in very limited circumstances (e.g. Heimdall on his L2, and only when he has access to buffs). It even makes sense for some champs, like Photon, to turn off certain masteries when their abilities call for it. I don't like that ability and it's annoying, but it's justified because of the trade-off of an opponent constantly healing from all the non-damaging debuffs. But you're reaching a point where it's just a basic part of every new champ's kit. It becomes "you paid for these abilities with units, lol now you can't use them." That's incredible frustrating. Be more creative than that. Do better.
I''m interested about this, and just wondered if you could expand a bit - i don't mean any of this in a mean spirited "gotcha" way, and I don't think you're necessarily wrong for not liking masteries turned off as it's your opinion. I think it's just an interesting conversation.
So you say that it's one thing if it's in limited circumstances or if their abilities call for it (justified because of the trade off of an opponent healing from non-damaging debuffs) then it's ok.
If we take a look at recent champions (from Photon, as it's the first example given)
Photon - dex removed in limited circumstances (can counter by preventing pure light through debuff or AAR control, or by waiting out pure light). Willpower removed because if she didn't you would literally just die from reversing your willpower healing, so it's actually a positive here. It stopped her from becoming like warlock where you don't want to have willpower on for it
Vox, Glad, Morb, Wolf, Maestro, Chee, kushala all don't mess with masteries
Onslaught - abilities call for it due to healing from non-damaging debuffs, and you can avoid it by not parrying
Bullseye, White Tiger, ironheart don't mess with masteries
Dust - abilities call for it due to healing from non-damaging debuffs
Serpent - dex removed in limited circumstances, only while true focus buff is active (which can be removed by stagger or neutralise or buff immunity etc) which is almost identical to heimdall, a champ you called out as being ok. I guess the slight difference is that serpent has it on both specials, but is that enough of a difference for you that it crosses the line?
So I'm not seeing where the lazy design is, because each example is one that fits under a description you said you understood. Or do you mean that it's having 4 out of 14 recent champs of messing with different masteries?
I can understand that we don't want literally every new champ to stop us being able to dex, or use willpower. But I personally don't think masteries should be off limits as something to challenge us in game. It's just another lever to pull to add challenge to a new champion, and if the community says "no you aren't allowed to use it", and Kabam back off, then every champion named above would just have other ways of being difficult to fight. I don't understand why it's lazy design to use different ways of adding challenge - because every one of these *do* add challenge in different ways.
Not to mention, if Dust could be consistently healed up against the entire fight, i guarantee her defensive threat would be increased in other areas, maybe more damage from sandstorm to counteract the healing that champions have, and then willpower becomes a necessity to fight her because if you don't then you're taking too much damage, and suddenly robots or willpower immune champs like Gorr are at a disadvantage.
As for the "you paid for this ability with units now you can't use them", can the same be said for stun immune nodes stopping parry, or heal block stopping willpower, or nodes/ability that reduce the ability accuracy for the parry mastery (like Adam Warlock). I feel like none of these reasons really get to the heart of why some people hate the idea of messing with dex/willpower. Does Iron Man make mystic dispersion a less useful mastery because he power locks when his buffs expire, or do buff immune champions have the same relationship with mystic champions? It's all just an extra lever to pull in complexity of matchups in the game. There are plenty of places that remove the benefits of plenty of masteries. Do ~1% of champions turning off willpower really do anything more than a drop in the ocean of taking away willpower's return on investment?
Where i will likely agree with you more, is that I do think we are on the edge of where too many champions in a short amount of time are messing with masteries. Because like any ability or mechanic to add challenge to a defender, too many of the same sorts of levers can be repetitive. In the same way that if every defender had unstoppable it would be dull. We've had 3 that can shut down willpower, and 2 that shut off dex (photon counting for both - though in her case this actually helps the player). I wouldn't really want to see any more in the immediate future. But i do think it is a way that defenders can become more interesting.
The part about messing with masteries that isn't brought up much is how it impacts the recoil masteries.
By having them, you sign up for a trade-off. You gain great attack increase, but also incur two debuffs, constant damage, and penalties for specials. However, in most cases it's completely fine because of things like willpower. Remove that, and now on top of having to deal with an annoying defender, I have to have extra immunities as well or I may die even if I fight perfectly.
If switching masteries were easier and less costly, I wouldn't be as bothered. But for those who don't spend but want to have enough units for things like Fourth of July, Cyber, Banquet, Necropolis, etc, arena is basically required. Arena grinding without recoil masteries is absolutely terrible, and constantly switching defeats the point
i completely agree with you there, when we had this conversation with devs in CCP this is something i brought up because it does hit them harder. I guess there are two counter points, but I do still agree that this is the part of where they are hit slightly too hard with champs who turn off willpower. 1) mastery system changes have been spoken about in the past, and I do know that the "soon" joke can be made here, but if/when that does come in it'll alleviate those issues. And 2) recoil does already give a hell of a lot of benefit, so it's not the end of the world to have downsides to it as well. Imo the first is more important, but i do get the second.
@Wicket329 and you missed the most wierdest bullseye counter, gorr. Just let him evade and take specials on the face, and you'll heal back to 100% health with 11 regen buffs.
Victory track meta is nothing, Kabam can easily make Storm & Kitty useless, then what you are going to do?
Just use your relic when he activates his evade and push him to sp2. If you're using someone like Venom or Archangel, he will be dead very soon after that.
Doesn't Bullseye's awakened ability at sig 200 shut down AA? I thought it did.
I've seen people kill my bullseye in 28 seconds with AA.
Is it happening consistently though? Cause it's 50% chance to purify 50% of all debuffs if people are getting lucky more often than not then that's weird.
There are more counters /options to bullseye than you think. You mainly need a bleed immune and you can play around the killer instinct by waiting it out. Yes it stalls the fight in BGs, but he has such a tiny healthpool that the fight ends really fast, and the sig 200 won’t be making much of a difference unless theyre using someone like scorp/ham who aren’t even ideal to begin with
Name all these counters then, if he had that many counters people wouldn't be struggling so much.
Some (many) of the champs I’m about to say are a stretch or champs that nobody has ranked or require weird playstyles to work or any number of other things, but these are all the champions I could think of who could work through a Bullseye fight pretty okay. Totally not saying Bullseye should stay how he is, just providing some thoughts on who could be used outside of the conventional meta options.
If in a BGs setting - Iceman, Bishop, Storm, Storm X, Onslaught, Emma Frost(ish. Bleed immune in diamond and prevents evade in telepath), and White Mags (use prefight on himself) all have direct counters in their kits.
Then you’ve got weirder options who counter what I consider to be the bigger part of Bullseye’s threat, his Killer Instinct - Mole Man, Nick Fury, Night Thrasher (board attacks can’t be evaded), Ghost, Punisher2099 (dance around a little at the start of the fight to get full battery charge, then go after him. He’ll be dead before he gets a bar of power), both tech Visions after a little set up (same idea, power control), Aarkus (easy to maintain coldsnap), Dormammu (yeah, I know, fists of velvet, but he has absolute power control over the fight), Doc Voodoo (power control like Dormammu once he gets his sp2. Not super realistic, I know, but you asked for all of them), and, of course, Archangel.
Finally, only available outside of BGs, there’s every bleed immune #hero or #metal champ in the game w/ the White Mags prefight.
Again, all of this is not to say that Bullseye isn’t overtuned as a defender, just answering your question.
Right but all the non bleed immune champs you mentioned will still take chip damage to some extent. Are they really viable counters if they take unavoidable damage? A single sp1 on block will take 15%-20% of your healthans there's nothing you can do about it. In Gamma 1 losing 20% of your health is usually a loss already, I'd assume in the upper leagues it's even worse.
Also, some of the counters you mentioned like Iceman (mine's r4 sig 200 yes I have tested it already) Voodoo and Dormammu are waaay too slow to be viable for BGs.
@Wicket329 and you missed the most wierdest bullseye counter, gorr. Just let him evade and take specials on the face, and you'll heal back to 100% health with 11 regen buffs.
I also forgot Lady Deathstrike who can do it he same kind of thing and a potential fun but only partial counter: Man-Thing. Bleed immune doesn’t take multiplier damage from critical hits. No idea how his unstoppable heavy might interact with a parry/heavy at Bullseye with Killer Instinct active.
Victory track meta is nothing, Kabam can easily make Storm & Kitty useless, then what you are going to do?
Just use your relic when he activates his evade and push him to sp2. If you're using someone like Venom or Archangel, he will be dead very soon after that.
Doesn't Bullseye's awakened ability at sig 200 shut down AA? I thought it did.
I've seen people kill my bullseye in 28 seconds with AA.
Is it happening consistently though? Cause it's 50% chance to purify 50% of all debuffs if people are getting lucky more often than not then that's weird.
There are more counters /options to bullseye than you think. You mainly need a bleed immune and you can play around the killer instinct by waiting it out. Yes it stalls the fight in BGs, but he has such a tiny healthpool that the fight ends really fast, and the sig 200 won’t be making much of a difference unless theyre using someone like scorp/ham who aren’t even ideal to begin with
Name all these counters then, if he had that many counters people wouldn't be struggling so much.
Some (many) of the champs I’m about to say are a stretch or champs that nobody has ranked or require weird playstyles to work or any number of other things, but these are all the champions I could think of who could work through a Bullseye fight pretty okay. Totally not saying Bullseye should stay how he is, just providing some thoughts on who could be used outside of the conventional meta options.
If in a BGs setting - Iceman, Bishop, Storm, Storm X, Onslaught, Emma Frost(ish. Bleed immune in diamond and prevents evade in telepath), and White Mags (use prefight on himself) all have direct counters in their kits.
Then you’ve got weirder options who counter what I consider to be the bigger part of Bullseye’s threat, his Killer Instinct - Mole Man, Nick Fury, Night Thrasher (board attacks can’t be evaded), Ghost, Punisher2099 (dance around a little at the start of the fight to get full battery charge, then go after him. He’ll be dead before he gets a bar of power), both tech Visions after a little set up (same idea, power control), Aarkus (easy to maintain coldsnap), Dormammu (yeah, I know, fists of velvet, but he has absolute power control over the fight), Doc Voodoo (power control like Dormammu once he gets his sp2. Not super realistic, I know, but you asked for all of them), and, of course, Archangel.
Finally, only available outside of BGs, there’s every bleed immune #hero or #metal champ in the game w/ the White Mags prefight.
Again, all of this is not to say that Bullseye isn’t overtuned as a defender, just answering your question.
Right but all the non bleed immune champs you mentioned will still take chip damage to some extent. Are they really viable counters if they take unavoidable damage? A single sp1 on block will take 15%-20% of your healthans there's nothing you can do about it. In Gamma 1 losing 20% of your health is usually a loss already, I'd assume in the upper leagues it's even worse.
Also, some of the counters you mentioned like Iceman (mine's r4 sig 200 yes I have tested it already) Voodoo and Dormammu are waaay too slow to be viable for BGs.
That’s why I didn’t include Dorm and Voodoo on the BGs list. Iceman can absolutely do enough damage if you’re willing to invest in him. I took mine to R5 shortly after his buff and I’ve had no regrets and I’m gonna ascend him in the very near future. He very efficiently works through a BG healthpool. And I don’t believe Bullseye has a particularly impressive healthpool, so champions who might otherwise be lacking in damage might still be sufficient in this context.
Again, I’m not here arguing that Bullseye is balanced. But several of the champs I mentioned are viable counters because of their power control which prevents Bullseye from ever throwing that special that you’re worried about.
I don't necessarily have a problem with Kabam releasing these champions as such, but I think one pretty stark problem is the increased way to acquire them quickly.
What do I mean by that?
If we look at how things were a year ago, there was basically just one way to acquire a new champion quickly, and that was via the featured 6* crystal when it came along. (I'm disregarding people whaling out on cav crystals here since that wasn't a relatively reliable way to aquire them.)
Today, we instead have three ways to aquire a new champion. The first one is through the release bundles where Valiant players can get a hold of a 6*. We're not yet at a point where 6*s have been phased out, so getting a meta defender as a 6* on day 1 is definitely a good thing. Compared to how things were a year ago, there's also no chance involved. You pay for the bundle, you get the 6* guaranteed.
Meanwhile, the chance to get those new shiny champions from the featured 6* crystal is the same as it was a year ago.
However, now we also have the 7* versions to contend with. Unlike a year ago, where the 5 and 6*s were not comparable, the 6 and 7*s very much are. It's something that'll eventually be phased out whenever Kabam decides to release more r3 materials into the Contest, but for now, 7r2s and ascended 6r5s are roughly the same.
The result is that players can now aquire them as both 6 and 7*s as well as outright buy a 6* of every champion with no RNG involved, which at least in my experience has led to a feeling that everyone has every champion. It's of course not entirely true and the more accurate picture is that a lot more people have at least one or a couple of these new super tough defenders, but that's bad enough. Where you were previously kind of slowly introduced to new champions and had time to find coping strategies, you now have to face them immediately and relentlessly. This makes it tough to learn how to counter them properly.
I think the game is in kind of a rough spot at the moment due to this. It's something that's going to become less and less of a problem as 6*s starts getting phased out eventually, but for now, it's a bit of a problem.
Well you can skill your way around them, learning how to dex Onslaught’s sp1, blocking Serpent’s ranged attacks and avoiding the melee strikes, and baiting a sp1 from Bullseye but there is still the fun and interactive damage
@Wicket329 and you missed the most wierdest bullseye counter, gorr. Just let him evade and take specials on the face, and you'll heal back to 100% health with 11 regen buffs.
I also forgot Lady Deathstrike who can do it he same kind of thing and a potential fun but only partial counter: Man-Thing. Bleed immune doesn’t take multiplier damage from critical hits. No idea how his unstoppable heavy might interact with a parry/heavy at Bullseye with Killer Instinct active.
Victory track meta is nothing, Kabam can easily make Storm & Kitty useless, then what you are going to do?
Just use your relic when he activates his evade and push him to sp2. If you're using someone like Venom or Archangel, he will be dead very soon after that.
Doesn't Bullseye's awakened ability at sig 200 shut down AA? I thought it did.
I've seen people kill my bullseye in 28 seconds with AA.
Is it happening consistently though? Cause it's 50% chance to purify 50% of all debuffs if people are getting lucky more often than not then that's weird.
There are more counters /options to bullseye than you think. You mainly need a bleed immune and you can play around the killer instinct by waiting it out. Yes it stalls the fight in BGs, but he has such a tiny healthpool that the fight ends really fast, and the sig 200 won’t be making much of a difference unless theyre using someone like scorp/ham who aren’t even ideal to begin with
Name all these counters then, if he had that many counters people wouldn't be struggling so much.
Some (many) of the champs I’m about to say are a stretch or champs that nobody has ranked or require weird playstyles to work or any number of other things, but these are all the champions I could think of who could work through a Bullseye fight pretty okay. Totally not saying Bullseye should stay how he is, just providing some thoughts on who could be used outside of the conventional meta options.
If in a BGs setting - Iceman, Bishop, Storm, Storm X, Onslaught, Emma Frost(ish. Bleed immune in diamond and prevents evade in telepath), and White Mags (use prefight on himself) all have direct counters in their kits.
Then you’ve got weirder options who counter what I consider to be the bigger part of Bullseye’s threat, his Killer Instinct - Mole Man, Nick Fury, Night Thrasher (board attacks can’t be evaded), Ghost, Punisher2099 (dance around a little at the start of the fight to get full battery charge, then go after him. He’ll be dead before he gets a bar of power), both tech Visions after a little set up (same idea, power control), Aarkus (easy to maintain coldsnap), Dormammu (yeah, I know, fists of velvet, but he has absolute power control over the fight), Doc Voodoo (power control like Dormammu once he gets his sp2. Not super realistic, I know, but you asked for all of them), and, of course, Archangel.
Finally, only available outside of BGs, there’s every bleed immune #hero or #metal champ in the game w/ the White Mags prefight.
Again, all of this is not to say that Bullseye isn’t overtuned as a defender, just answering your question.
Right but all the non bleed immune champs you mentioned will still take chip damage to some extent. Are they really viable counters if they take unavoidable damage? A single sp1 on block will take 15%-20% of your healthans there's nothing you can do about it. In Gamma 1 losing 20% of your health is usually a loss already, I'd assume in the upper leagues it's even worse.
Also, some of the counters you mentioned like Iceman (mine's r4 sig 200 yes I have tested it already) Voodoo and Dormammu are waaay too slow to be viable for BGs.
That’s why I didn’t include Dorm and Voodoo on the BGs list. Iceman can absolutely do enough damage if you’re willing to invest in him. I took mine to R5 shortly after his buff and I’ve had no regrets and I’m gonna ascend him in the very near future. He very efficiently works through a BG healthpool. And I don’t believe Bullseye has a particularly impressive healthpool, so champions who might otherwise be lacking in damage might still be sufficient in this context.
Again, I’m not here arguing that Bullseye is balanced. But several of the champs I mentioned are viable counters because of their power control which prevents Bullseye from ever throwing that special that you’re worried about.
Have you been able to successfully kill Bullseye in under a minute with Iceman? (cause I haven't) If yes, what strategy did you use?
They're not viable counters if they either take loads of chip damage or go over a minute, they may be outside of BGs but no good enough for BGs. If you play in the higher leagues in GC (which I assume you do) you'll understand why full health bar and sub 60 secs fights matter, if an attacker can't do both at the same time you will most likely lose unless you trapped your opponent with a nasty defender too which doesn't happen that often. I'm all for tough defenders like Photon Serpent and Onslaught but Bullseye is just too much, he's on a whole new level compared to those two.
Also, you claim you aren't arguing the fact that he's busted on defense but then proceed to also say there are loads of viable counters. If there are so many viable counters why are people struggling so much against him? More importantly, how could he be busted if there are so many viable counters? I'm willing to bet at least 75% of the "viable" counters you mentioned, won't get you a win in BGs, if they did people wouldn't be struggling this much.
@NüΚΞ bro 100% facts. So true that Kabam won’t address your reply because there’s no way they can without looking silly. So many huge issues in the game and my forums post only adressesb1 of them.
@Wicket329 and you missed the most wierdest bullseye counter, gorr. Just let him evade and take specials on the face, and you'll heal back to 100% health with 11 regen buffs.
I also forgot Lady Deathstrike who can do it he same kind of thing and a potential fun but only partial counter: Man-Thing. Bleed immune doesn’t take multiplier damage from critical hits. No idea how his unstoppable heavy might interact with a parry/heavy at Bullseye with Killer Instinct active.
Victory track meta is nothing, Kabam can easily make Storm & Kitty useless, then what you are going to do?
Just use your relic when he activates his evade and push him to sp2. If you're using someone like Venom or Archangel, he will be dead very soon after that.
Doesn't Bullseye's awakened ability at sig 200 shut down AA? I thought it did.
I've seen people kill my bullseye in 28 seconds with AA.
Is it happening consistently though? Cause it's 50% chance to purify 50% of all debuffs if people are getting lucky more often than not then that's weird.
There are more counters /options to bullseye than you think. You mainly need a bleed immune and you can play around the killer instinct by waiting it out. Yes it stalls the fight in BGs, but he has such a tiny healthpool that the fight ends really fast, and the sig 200 won’t be making much of a difference unless theyre using someone like scorp/ham who aren’t even ideal to begin with
Name all these counters then, if he had that many counters people wouldn't be struggling so much.
Some (many) of the champs I’m about to say are a stretch or champs that nobody has ranked or require weird playstyles to work or any number of other things, but these are all the champions I could think of who could work through a Bullseye fight pretty okay. Totally not saying Bullseye should stay how he is, just providing some thoughts on who could be used outside of the conventional meta options.
If in a BGs setting - Iceman, Bishop, Storm, Storm X, Onslaught, Emma Frost(ish. Bleed immune in diamond and prevents evade in telepath), and White Mags (use prefight on himself) all have direct counters in their kits.
Then you’ve got weirder options who counter what I consider to be the bigger part of Bullseye’s threat, his Killer Instinct - Mole Man, Nick Fury, Night Thrasher (board attacks can’t be evaded), Ghost, Punisher2099 (dance around a little at the start of the fight to get full battery charge, then go after him. He’ll be dead before he gets a bar of power), both tech Visions after a little set up (same idea, power control), Aarkus (easy to maintain coldsnap), Dormammu (yeah, I know, fists of velvet, but he has absolute power control over the fight), Doc Voodoo (power control like Dormammu once he gets his sp2. Not super realistic, I know, but you asked for all of them), and, of course, Archangel.
Finally, only available outside of BGs, there’s every bleed immune #hero or #metal champ in the game w/ the White Mags prefight.
Again, all of this is not to say that Bullseye isn’t overtuned as a defender, just answering your question.
Right but all the non bleed immune champs you mentioned will still take chip damage to some extent. Are they really viable counters if they take unavoidable damage? A single sp1 on block will take 15%-20% of your healthans there's nothing you can do about it. In Gamma 1 losing 20% of your health is usually a loss already, I'd assume in the upper leagues it's even worse.
Also, some of the counters you mentioned like Iceman (mine's r4 sig 200 yes I have tested it already) Voodoo and Dormammu are waaay too slow to be viable for BGs.
That’s why I didn’t include Dorm and Voodoo on the BGs list. Iceman can absolutely do enough damage if you’re willing to invest in him. I took mine to R5 shortly after his buff and I’ve had no regrets and I’m gonna ascend him in the very near future. He very efficiently works through a BG healthpool. And I don’t believe Bullseye has a particularly impressive healthpool, so champions who might otherwise be lacking in damage might still be sufficient in this context.
Again, I’m not here arguing that Bullseye is balanced. But several of the champs I mentioned are viable counters because of their power control which prevents Bullseye from ever throwing that special that you’re worried about.
Have you been able to successfully kill Bullseye in under a minute with Iceman? (cause I haven't) If yes, what strategy did you use?
They're not viable counters if they either take loads of chip damage or go over a minute, they may be outside of BGs but no good enough for BGs. If you play in the higher leagues in GC (which I assume you do) you'll understand why full health bar and sub 60 secs fights matter, if an attacker can't do both at the same time you will most likely lose unless you trapped your opponent with a nasty defender too which doesn't happen that often. I'm all for tough defenders like Photon Serpent and Onslaught but Bullseye is just too much, he's on a whole new level compared to those two.
Also, you claim you aren't arguing the fact that he's busted on defense but then proceed to also say there are loads of viable counters. If there are so many viable counters why are people struggling so much against him? More importantly, how could he be busted if there are so many viable counters? I'm willing to bet at least 75% of the "viable" counters you mentioned, won't get you a win in BGs, if they did people wouldn't be struggling this much.
Nah, you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I only named a few for viable BGs counters. The others are more geared towards War or whatever content Kabam might throw in the future. I’d be shocked if we go through all the Seasons of Suffering without getting a Bullseye boss, and that's where these other options come in.
Although I do actually really like the idea of Punisher2099 for him. Might make him my next tech rank up project. If I do, I’ll check back in with a big Bullseye matchup and we’ll see how he did (I could be so wrong but P2099 is fun so I’m willing to risk it).
@Wicket329 and you missed the most wierdest bullseye counter, gorr. Just let him evade and take specials on the face, and you'll heal back to 100% health with 11 regen buffs.
I also forgot Lady Deathstrike who can do it he same kind of thing and a potential fun but only partial counter: Man-Thing. Bleed immune doesn’t take multiplier damage from critical hits. No idea how his unstoppable heavy might interact with a parry/heavy at Bullseye with Killer Instinct active.
Victory track meta is nothing, Kabam can easily make Storm & Kitty useless, then what you are going to do?
Just use your relic when he activates his evade and push him to sp2. If you're using someone like Venom or Archangel, he will be dead very soon after that.
Doesn't Bullseye's awakened ability at sig 200 shut down AA? I thought it did.
I've seen people kill my bullseye in 28 seconds with AA.
Is it happening consistently though? Cause it's 50% chance to purify 50% of all debuffs if people are getting lucky more often than not then that's weird.
There are more counters /options to bullseye than you think. You mainly need a bleed immune and you can play around the killer instinct by waiting it out. Yes it stalls the fight in BGs, but he has such a tiny healthpool that the fight ends really fast, and the sig 200 won’t be making much of a difference unless theyre using someone like scorp/ham who aren’t even ideal to begin with
Name all these counters then, if he had that many counters people wouldn't be struggling so much.
Some (many) of the champs I’m about to say are a stretch or champs that nobody has ranked or require weird playstyles to work or any number of other things, but these are all the champions I could think of who could work through a Bullseye fight pretty okay. Totally not saying Bullseye should stay how he is, just providing some thoughts on who could be used outside of the conventional meta options.
If in a BGs setting - Iceman, Bishop, Storm, Storm X, Onslaught, Emma Frost(ish. Bleed immune in diamond and prevents evade in telepath), and White Mags (use prefight on himself) all have direct counters in their kits.
Then you’ve got weirder options who counter what I consider to be the bigger part of Bullseye’s threat, his Killer Instinct - Mole Man, Nick Fury, Night Thrasher (board attacks can’t be evaded), Ghost, Punisher2099 (dance around a little at the start of the fight to get full battery charge, then go after him. He’ll be dead before he gets a bar of power), both tech Visions after a little set up (same idea, power control), Aarkus (easy to maintain coldsnap), Dormammu (yeah, I know, fists of velvet, but he has absolute power control over the fight), Doc Voodoo (power control like Dormammu once he gets his sp2. Not super realistic, I know, but you asked for all of them), and, of course, Archangel.
Finally, only available outside of BGs, there’s every bleed immune #hero or #metal champ in the game w/ the White Mags prefight.
Again, all of this is not to say that Bullseye isn’t overtuned as a defender, just answering your question.
Right but all the non bleed immune champs you mentioned will still take chip damage to some extent. Are they really viable counters if they take unavoidable damage? A single sp1 on block will take 15%-20% of your healthans there's nothing you can do about it. In Gamma 1 losing 20% of your health is usually a loss already, I'd assume in the upper leagues it's even worse.
Also, some of the counters you mentioned like Iceman (mine's r4 sig 200 yes I have tested it already) Voodoo and Dormammu are waaay too slow to be viable for BGs.
That’s why I didn’t include Dorm and Voodoo on the BGs list. Iceman can absolutely do enough damage if you’re willing to invest in him. I took mine to R5 shortly after his buff and I’ve had no regrets and I’m gonna ascend him in the very near future. He very efficiently works through a BG healthpool. And I don’t believe Bullseye has a particularly impressive healthpool, so champions who might otherwise be lacking in damage might still be sufficient in this context.
Again, I’m not here arguing that Bullseye is balanced. But several of the champs I mentioned are viable counters because of their power control which prevents Bullseye from ever throwing that special that you’re worried about.
Have you been able to successfully kill Bullseye in under a minute with Iceman? (cause I haven't) If yes, what strategy did you use?
They're not viable counters if they either take loads of chip damage or go over a minute, they may be outside of BGs but no good enough for BGs. If you play in the higher leagues in GC (which I assume you do) you'll understand why full health bar and sub 60 secs fights matter, if an attacker can't do both at the same time you will most likely lose unless you trapped your opponent with a nasty defender too which doesn't happen that often. I'm all for tough defenders like Photon Serpent and Onslaught but Bullseye is just too much, he's on a whole new level compared to those two.
Also, you claim you aren't arguing the fact that he's busted on defense but then proceed to also say there are loads of viable counters. If there are so many viable counters why are people struggling so much against him? More importantly, how could he be busted if there are so many viable counters? I'm willing to bet at least 75% of the "viable" counters you mentioned, won't get you a win in BGs, if they did people wouldn't be struggling this much.
Nah, you’re misunderstanding what I’m saying. I only named a few for viable BGs counters. The others are more geared towards War or whatever content Kabam might throw in the future. I’d be shocked if we go through all the Seasons of Suffering without getting a Bullseye boss, and that's where these other options come in.
Although I do actually really like the idea of Punisher2099 for him. Might make him my next tech rank up project. If I do, I’ll check back in with a big Bullseye matchup and we’ll see how he did (I could be so wrong but P2099 is fun so I’m willing to risk it).
I don't think Bullseye is that much of a problem outside of BGs, not for me at least personally but that's because I can pick any champ I want whenever I want. In BGs however yeah different story, his whole kit is way too restrictive imo. I guess we can agree that there aren't that many viable ones for BGs, which is all I was saying. Really hope they tune it down and instead give him more damage offensively cause he feels like a wet noodle sometimes.
I’m surprised so many people are using this thread as a chance for showing off skills, even after Kabam admitted they are doing something wrong,
Agreed. What sucks is in the current state of overpowered AI (watch any of the CCP Carina challenge streams by their creators, they all get caught complaining) and dropped inputs/framerates/lag that only benefit the defender… it’s so hard to accurately call out how hard these defenders are.
She might beat him but in my opinion she isn't a counter if you take that much damage while he does sp1. I need a bleed immune/resistant/negate the damage in some other way to counter bullseye
The AI and lag is a HUGE part of the problem. I didn't believe it until I had this fight against a korg the other day. I made a gutsy decision when I noticed he was in the corner blocking and not moving. I stopped inputs entirely. And he just SAT THERE for 2 1/2 min before I gave up and hit into his block. Idk of you're familiar but not always a fun decision to make.
The AI and lag is a HUGE part of the problem. I didn't believe it until I had this fight against a korg the other day. I made a gutsy decision when I noticed he was in the corner blocking and not moving. I stopped inputs entirely. And he just SAT THERE for 2 1/2 min before I gave up and hit into his block. Idk of you're familiar but not always a fun decision to make.
This fight design is one of the best examples of how horrendous the AI is right now.
I don't necessarily have a problem with Kabam releasing these champions as such, but I think one pretty stark problem is the increased way to acquire them quickly.
What do I mean by that?
If we look at how things were a year ago, there was basically just one way to acquire a new champion quickly, and that was via the featured 6* crystal when it came along. (I'm disregarding people whaling out on cav crystals here since that wasn't a relatively reliable way to aquire them.)
Today, we instead have three ways to aquire a new champion. The first one is through the release bundles where Valiant players can get a hold of a 6*. We're not yet at a point where 6*s have been phased out, so getting a meta defender as a 6* on day 1 is definitely a good thing. Compared to how things were a year ago, there's also no chance involved. You pay for the bundle, you get the 6* guaranteed.
Meanwhile, the chance to get those new shiny champions from the featured 6* crystal is the same as it was a year ago.
However, now we also have the 7* versions to contend with. Unlike a year ago, where the 5 and 6*s were not comparable, the 6 and 7*s very much are. It's something that'll eventually be phased out whenever Kabam decides to release more r3 materials into the Contest, but for now, 7r2s and ascended 6r5s are roughly the same.
The result is that players can now aquire them as both 6 and 7*s as well as outright buy a 6* of every champion with no RNG involved, which at least in my experience has led to a feeling that everyone has every champion. It's of course not entirely true and the more accurate picture is that a lot more people have at least one or a couple of these new super tough defenders, but that's bad enough. Where you were previously kind of slowly introduced to new champions and had time to find coping strategies, you now have to face them immediately and relentlessly. This makes it tough to learn how to counter them properly.
I think the game is in kind of a rough spot at the moment due to this. It's something that's going to become less and less of a problem as 6*s starts getting phased out eventually, but for now, it's a bit of a problem.
She might beat him but in my opinion she isn't a counter if you take that much damage while he does sp1. I need a bleed immune/resistant/negate the damage in some other way to counter bullseye
This, what's the point of her being able to beat him if you lose 30% of your health from block damage alone which is 100% unavoidable. In Gamma 3 and above that's most likely a loss.
Is the basic complaint that a given defender champ doesn't always have a readily available nemesis that face-rolls them? If you get through the fight with 20% health left, didn't you still win? What's the cutoff for great counter, 80% to full yellow bar? Any less than that and the champ needs a nerf?
Sometimes you take damage. If you could safely and easily smack up anyone with any of your favorite dozen champs, would that be better? Defender champs get on my nerves because I think Kabam should focus more on champs you play and not as many champs that are placed. If I have trouble with them as defenders, that's usually down to unfamiliarity and not unfairness. Sometimes wins aren't clean. That's not super awesome for BGs, but BGs isn't the entire game. If you have a tough time in AW and have to take some deaths to clear a node, it is what it is. Kabam has said for years that alliances crushing the entire map wasn't to their liking.
To be honest I like a lot of the defenders released…. Except bullseye. He’s just not fun or rewarding to fight it’s just guaranteed chip damage without any counter play. The same can be said for onslaught but onslaught is not nearly as extreme damage wise on defense and doesnt have ways to straight up evade attacks.
To be honest I like a lot of the defenders released…. Except bullseye. He’s just not fun or rewarding to fight it’s just guaranteed chip damage without any counter play. The same can be said for onslaught but onslaught is not nearly as extreme damage wise on defense and doesnt have ways to straight up evade attacks.
Completely agree, he’s conceptually reverse Electro. It’s not “hard” to deal with, you just mitigate the annoyance and hit him in the open windows. There’s minor to no skill reward, just pain and draft luck
Lots of good points. Glad for the response, just adding my 2 cents. Very unhappy with the constant passive damage and shutdown of willpower. Going to try to make a positive contribution rather than just vent. Reduce/eliminate passive damage and keep willpower if you have class advantage on attack.
I just looked at the aw map and feel sick to my stomach. Very few counters to already hard defenders that difficultly is now doubled by tactic but to put the icing on the cake is the few counters are banned. For real of your going to introduce a super tough meta then throw hard to fight champs in that meta let's aleast whitelist the counters. I'm pretty sure this will be my last serious war season. The ai has got even more insane than it was. Tatic are out of hand and defenders are nuts. What happened to the fun? Funniest part is kabam Mike responds and says something along the lines that they hear us and are going to tone down the defenders in the next couple months.. So wait this was going to keep getting worse wtf?! I just don't know anymore
It's going to be interesting how arena and other games modes will be when we have meta defenders who cant easily counter
It's already happening, the number of Onslaughts and Bullseyes in arenas is painful at the moment...and the arena is already overflowing with Absmans and Bishops, which also require special counters. I get 20 + 6 mill in the arena each round, for the 6-10% rewards. So I don't play terribly much anymore, but if we start losing x3 because of these defenders, I'll stop playing arena altogether.
Comments
Just let him evade and take specials on the face, and you'll heal back to 100% health with 11 regen buffs.
Also, some of the counters you mentioned like Iceman (mine's r4 sig 200 yes I have tested it already) Voodoo and Dormammu are waaay too slow to be viable for BGs.
Again, I’m not here arguing that Bullseye is balanced. But several of the champs I mentioned are viable counters because of their power control which prevents Bullseye from ever throwing that special that you’re worried about.
What do I mean by that?
If we look at how things were a year ago, there was basically just one way to acquire a new champion quickly, and that was via the featured 6* crystal when it came along. (I'm disregarding people whaling out on cav crystals here since that wasn't a relatively reliable way to aquire them.)
Today, we instead have three ways to aquire a new champion. The first one is through the release bundles where Valiant players can get a hold of a 6*. We're not yet at a point where 6*s have been phased out, so getting a meta defender as a 6* on day 1 is definitely a good thing. Compared to how things were a year ago, there's also no chance involved. You pay for the bundle, you get the 6* guaranteed.
Meanwhile, the chance to get those new shiny champions from the featured 6* crystal is the same as it was a year ago.
However, now we also have the 7* versions to contend with. Unlike a year ago, where the 5 and 6*s were not comparable, the 6 and 7*s very much are. It's something that'll eventually be phased out whenever Kabam decides to release more r3 materials into the Contest, but for now, 7r2s and ascended 6r5s are roughly the same.
The result is that players can now aquire them as both 6 and 7*s as well as outright buy a 6* of every champion with no RNG involved, which at least in my experience has led to a feeling that everyone has every champion. It's of course not entirely true and the more accurate picture is that a lot more people have at least one or a couple of these new super tough defenders, but that's bad enough. Where you were previously kind of slowly introduced to new champions and had time to find coping strategies, you now have to face them immediately and relentlessly. This makes it tough to learn how to counter them properly.
I think the game is in kind of a rough spot at the moment due to this. It's something that's going to become less and less of a problem as 6*s starts getting phased out eventually, but for now, it's a bit of a problem.
They're not viable counters if they either take loads of chip damage or go over a minute, they may be outside of BGs but no good enough for BGs. If you play in the higher leagues in GC (which I assume you do) you'll understand why full health bar and sub 60 secs fights matter, if an attacker can't do both at the same time you will most likely lose unless you trapped your opponent with a nasty defender too which doesn't happen that often. I'm all for tough defenders like Photon Serpent and Onslaught but Bullseye is just too much, he's on a whole new level compared to those two.
Also, you claim you aren't arguing the fact that he's busted on defense but then proceed to also say there are loads of viable counters. If there are so many viable counters why are people struggling so much against him? More importantly, how could he be busted if there are so many viable counters? I'm willing to bet at least 75% of the "viable" counters you mentioned, won't get you a win in BGs, if they did people wouldn't be struggling this much.
Although I do actually really like the idea of Punisher2099 for him. Might make him my next tech rank up project. If I do, I’ll check back in with a big Bullseye matchup and we’ll see how he did (I could be so wrong but P2099 is fun so I’m willing to risk it).
Really hope they tune it down and instead give him more damage offensively cause he feels like a wet noodle sometimes.
even after Kabam admitted they are doing something wrong,
Nerf em cause I dont have them...
Sometimes you take damage. If you could safely and easily smack up anyone with any of your favorite dozen champs, would that be better? Defender champs get on my nerves because I think Kabam should focus more on champs you play and not as many champs that are placed. If I have trouble with them as defenders, that's usually down to unfamiliarity and not unfairness. Sometimes wins aren't clean. That's not super awesome for BGs, but BGs isn't the entire game. If you have a tough time in AW and have to take some deaths to clear a node, it is what it is. Kabam has said for years that alliances crushing the entire map wasn't to their liking.
Going to try to make a positive contribution rather than just vent.
Reduce/eliminate passive damage and keep willpower if you have class advantage on attack.