Non-dodgable specials???

JarlofModesto25 · March 22

Atta_Master said:
Which champ special u can't dex?

Photon, now destroyer and serpent

JarlofModesto25 · March 22

Bendy said:

JarlofModesto25 said:
I’ve been playing this game for a while thru its ups and downs but this month might be it. Adding champions whose specials you can’t dodge is just straight cheating no matter how you put it. What’s the point of playing if playing perfectly isn’t even good enough?? I am done.
If this is about photon how ive started playing her is make sure she doesnt have power if at 10 knock her down then wait till gone or if u want to ignore photons pure light best route is aar so when attacking u dont get any debuffs on u, if its the serpent u need to neutralize the true focus buff when he specials its a lot to process but u will get hang of it if u really want to avoid them u can use champs that in kit say cant be hit when dashing so silk and nc are 2 options

No it’s about destroyer but mainly serpent. I know there’s a few counters to them but you shouldn’t have to choose between 3 champions to solo a fight. Taking 0 hits from serpent and dying thru block. I’d understand more if he did as much dmg as groot

JarlofModesto25 · March 22

ShashankGupta said:
Someone said impossible to dodge special
Punisher2099 special attacks is the impossible to dex

No his are at least possible. Someone’s done it to OG punisher. When you take away the chance of dodging it is where I draw the line

JarlofModesto25 · March 22

Toproller89 said:
Dex failing isn't a new thing, can happen with Void, Domino and Heimdall also

90% of the time skill champions won’t have that problem with void, domino it’s not consistent and won’t hurt ya to block, neither heimdall. With serpent it’s about every time plus his specials are way worse. How is no one bothered by this? It’s infuriating to not be able to solo a boss fight even if you fight perfectly

JarlofModesto25 · March 22

Usagicassidy said:
I still almost never succesfully dodge the specials of one of the most universally seen as worst characters - Cyclops.

I don't know what it is, but I almost always get hit by at least one of the beams lol.

For me it was groots sp2. 9/10 it’d get me

Ercarret · March 22

I don't care too much about it in general* as long as there is a viable way to just not get hit by it. If we take Heimdall, you can just bait out SP1s all day long or deal with his armor up buffs some way. For Photon, you can either tackle her pure light form, or you can just not push her to an SP2.

The problem I have is when a champion shuts down a lot of other ways to tackle their dex-cancelling. If you take Photon, she also can't miss while in her pure light form, which cancels out a huge swathe of the champions who should be able to tackle undexable special attacks. I remember being really annoyed by that when she first arrived to the game since miss and evade were the two solutions I could think of right then and there. It bothers me less nowadays since I now know other ways to deal with it, but it was super annoying at the time.

* I should clarify that I find it annoying when they release several of these types of annoying defenders in close proximity to one another. It makes it very hard to learn how to fight them since you're overwhelmed most of the time.

EdisonLaw · March 22

Impossible to dex specials: War Machine’s sp1, Collector’s sp1, Grandmaster/Nameless Grandmaster’s sp2, WS sp2, Darkhawk sp1, Cable’s sp1, which ones did I miss?

Undexable (dex failed) specials: Serpent with True Focus, Photon in Pure Light form, Jabari Panther when the hunt is active, Domino if the opponent is Unlucky

DNA3000 · March 22

Aecyn said:
I just find it weird that one of the core controls of the game loses its main purpose. Imagine playing and trying to dash forward and it just fails and you stand there... It just feels bad to have timed it right but not have it work. I know your champ still moves backwards but it effectively feels like your controls did nothing. There are work arounds to all the cases that can be found but it's just bad design.

Bad design is when something has no counter. The purpose to dashing backwards is no more to prevent taking any damage than the purpose of attacking is to kill the defender. If you fail to kill the defender, that doesn't mean the controls stopped working as intended.

Once upon a time the game had many opportunities to perform 100% perfect blocks. A lot of players thought this was just the way the game should work, and felt it was "bad design" to eliminate that, because how else were players going to be able to play? If we always had to take damage, that was unfair (those exact words were used at the time). By todays standards, that's a silly complaint, although it mutated several times to talk about "unavoidable damage."

The idea that if dash back and dexterity exist, it must always work or that's "bad design" is just another one of those notions that some players get stuck in their head because they accept that all these other things sometimes work and sometimes don't work, but their own sacred cows are not arbitrary but some cosmic truth of game design.

And yeah, I'm sure someone is warming up to say "that's not the same" or "I didn't say X" and hopefully they'll say it late enough that I'll miss it before signing off for the weekend.

EdisonLaw · March 22

DNA3000 said:

Aecyn said:
I just find it weird that one of the core controls of the game loses its main purpose. Imagine playing and trying to dash forward and it just fails and you stand there... It just feels bad to have timed it right but not have it work. I know your champ still moves backwards but it effectively feels like your controls did nothing. There are work arounds to all the cases that can be found but it's just bad design.
Bad design is when something has no counter. The purpose to dashing backwards is no more to prevent taking any damage than the purpose of attacking is to kill the defender. If you fail to kill the defender, that doesn't mean the controls stopped working as intended.

Once upon a time the game had many opportunities to perform 100% perfect blocks. A lot of players thought this was just the way the game should work, and felt it was "bad design" to eliminate that, because how else were players going to be able to play? If we always had to take damage, that was unfair (those exact words were used at the time). By todays standards, that's a silly complaint, although it mutated several times to talk about "unavoidable damage."

The idea that if dash back and dexterity exist, it must always work or that's "bad design" is just another one of those notions that some players get stuck in their head because they accept that all these other things sometimes work and sometimes don't work, but their own sacred cows are not arbitrary but some cosmic truth of game design.

And yeah, I'm sure someone is warming up to say "that's not the same" or "I didn't say X" and hopefully they'll say it late enough that I'll miss it before signing off for the weekend.

But still, undexable and unblockable specials at the same time? At least make them undexable or unblockable

DNA3000 · March 22

EdisonLaw said:

DNA3000 said:

Aecyn said:
I just find it weird that one of the core controls of the game loses its main purpose. Imagine playing and trying to dash forward and it just fails and you stand there... It just feels bad to have timed it right but not have it work. I know your champ still moves backwards but it effectively feels like your controls did nothing. There are work arounds to all the cases that can be found but it's just bad design.
Bad design is when something has no counter. The purpose to dashing backwards is no more to prevent taking any damage than the purpose of attacking is to kill the defender. If you fail to kill the defender, that doesn't mean the controls stopped working as intended.

Once upon a time the game had many opportunities to perform 100% perfect blocks. A lot of players thought this was just the way the game should work, and felt it was "bad design" to eliminate that, because how else were players going to be able to play? If we always had to take damage, that was unfair (those exact words were used at the time). By todays standards, that's a silly complaint, although it mutated several times to talk about "unavoidable damage."

The idea that if dash back and dexterity exist, it must always work or that's "bad design" is just another one of those notions that some players get stuck in their head because they accept that all these other things sometimes work and sometimes don't work, but their own sacred cows are not arbitrary but some cosmic truth of game design.

And yeah, I'm sure someone is warming up to say "that's not the same" or "I didn't say X" and hopefully they'll say it late enough that I'll miss it before signing off for the weekend.
But still, undexable and unblockable specials at the same time? At least make them undexable or unblockable

I'm not particularly fond of those myself. But we've always had undexable unblockable specials. We call them special threes. In the past people used to say that was unfair for an attack to exist that the player could not do anything against. Nowadays we mostly just deal with it and say well, just don't let them get to SP3.

When it is an SP1 or SP2, that's of course even harder to manage, but if we're being objective here, is it 100% fair for SP3 to be undexable and unblockable (and unmissable and unevadeable) and 100% unfair for SP2 to be undexable and unblockable? Or is this just a question of degree, something that we will have to get used to over time.

I'm not saying that there is no end to the difficulty ramp, because ultimately humans have to play the game. But I am honestly less worried about unblockable undexable special attacks, and more worried about information overload. It doesn't matter if a champion uses dexable specials, if you have to keep track of twelve different timers to find out when it is safe to attack them.

To me, that's the overwhelmingly largest threat to difficulty management right now. Unstoppable is not a problem if you can work around it. Unblockable is not a problem if you can work around it. Undexable specials are not a problem if there exists a tactic to work around them. But if you have to keep track of more things than your brain can keep track of, you can't do any of those things properly and while most people can learn to dex and learn to block and learn to use the right champion to power control a defender, most people cannot easily learn how to keep track of twice as many things in their head than they do normally.

Aecyn · March 22

DNA3000 said:

Aecyn said:
I just find it weird that one of the core controls of the game loses its main purpose. Imagine playing and trying to dash forward and it just fails and you stand there... It just feels bad to have timed it right but not have it work. I know your champ still moves backwards but it effectively feels like your controls did nothing. There are work arounds to all the cases that can be found but it's just bad design.
Bad design is when something has no counter. The purpose to dashing backwards is no more to prevent taking any damage than the purpose of attacking is to kill the defender. If you fail to kill the defender, that doesn't mean the controls stopped working as intended.

Once upon a time the game had many opportunities to perform 100% perfect blocks. A lot of players thought this was just the way the game should work, and felt it was "bad design" to eliminate that, because how else were players going to be able to play? If we always had to take damage, that was unfair (those exact words were used at the time). By todays standards, that's a silly complaint, although it mutated several times to talk about "unavoidable damage."

The idea that if dash back and dexterity exist, it must always work or that's "bad design" is just another one of those notions that some players get stuck in their head because they accept that all these other things sometimes work and sometimes don't work, but their own sacred cows are not arbitrary but some cosmic truth of game design.

And yeah, I'm sure someone is warming up to say "that's not the same" or "I didn't say X" and hopefully they'll say it late enough that I'll miss it before signing off for the weekend.

I know it's something we'll get used to but I keep picturing this type of thing in other games like say dark souls. You dodge attacks in there A LOT. Imagine if the enemies animation didn't touch your character at all yet you still died because the fight has that mechanic... It just feels bad. In a game like that, you'd likely have a way to shut off such an attack which is also the case in mcoc but it's often with a specific champ requirement. That's the adjustment we need to make but it takes time.

Aecyn · March 23

DNA3000 said:

I'm not saying that there is no end to the difficulty ramp, because ultimately humans have to play the game. But I am honestly less worried about unblockable undexable special attacks, and more worried about information overload. It doesn't matter if a champion uses dexable specials, if you have to keep track of twelve different timers to find out when it is safe to attack them.

To me, that's the overwhelmingly largest threat to difficulty management right now. Unstoppable is not a problem if you can work around it. Unblockable is not a problem if you can work around it. Undexable specials are not a problem if there exists a tactic to work around them. But if you have to keep track of more things than your brain can keep track of, you can't do any of those things properly and while most people can learn to dex and learn to block and learn to use the right champion to power control a defender, most people cannot easily learn how to keep track of twice as many things in their head than they do normally.

The more this thread has gone on the more I was thinking about information overload being more of an issue. The undexable side of it doesn't have a very clear indicator to look for. It's different for each champ that does it. You need to learn all of these things and how to deal with them as you see them. I know for me, with domino, it took a while to figure out why it was happening. I still don't know why Heimdall does it, I just know it's his sp2 so I don't push him there. It might benefit the game if there was a common effect that caused it. A common icon which when you see it, you know you can't dex. A name to look for in node/champ descriptions that you can easily find, to then figure out why it triggers so you can work around it.

Darkness275 · March 23

Photon, Serpent and Destroyer each have a mechanic where you can counter/avoid it. Whether it's to well-timed block a section of the special, dex a specific section of it and block the others or whatever. Sure, it's still likely chip damage, but there's management.

Some champions have very small dex windows, so it seems like their specials can't be avoided. Fury, Punisher, P2099, Cable, Mangog, War Machine... it's possible, but very difficult to get down consistently or without using a specific workaround (looking at Kitty phase).

Heimdall however, that SP2 is just truly unavoidable damage. Can't dex, can't block. If you push him to SP2 and you're not a phased Kitty or a phased Ghost with a synergy, you're taking damage, that's just a fact. But no-one really complains about him. I know he's been mentioned in this thread, and even hinted at as being an example of bad design, but he's never really complained about and he's the one that's truly unavoidable.

DNA3000 · March 23

Darkness275 said:
Photon, Serpent and Destroyer each have a mechanic where you can counter/avoid it. Whether it's to well-timed block a section of the special, dex a specific section of it and block the others or whatever. Sure, it's still likely chip damage, but there's management.

Some champions have very small dex windows, so it seems like their specials can't be avoided. Fury, Punisher, P2099, Cable, Mangog, War Machine... it's possible, but very difficult to get down consistently or without using a specific workaround (looking at Kitty phase).

Heimdall however, that SP2 is just truly unavoidable damage. Can't dex, can't block. If you push him to SP2 and you're not a phased Kitty or a phased Ghost with a synergy, you're taking damage, that's just a fact. But no-one really complains about him. I know he's been mentioned in this thread, and even hinted at as being an example of bad design, but he's never really complained about and he's the one that's truly unavoidable.

A lot of mystic champs are also good options. Heimdall is only unblockable if he has armor up buffs and only undexable if he has true strike. Champs like Wiccan, Rintrah, and BWCV can all remove or suppress his armor up buffs and prevent the true strike buff from applying on special activation.

winterthur · March 23

DNA3000 said:

Aecyn said:
I just find it weird that one of the core controls of the game loses its main purpose. Imagine playing and trying to dash forward and it just fails and you stand there... It just feels bad to have timed it right but not have it work. I know your champ still moves backwards but it effectively feels like your controls did nothing. There are work arounds to all the cases that can be found but it's just bad design.
By todays standards, that's a silly complaint, although it mutated several times to talk about "unavoidable damage."

I recalled fighting against Iceman. Dead shortly without both champs being near to each other. 🤔🥳

Red Guardian can block unblockable special, correct?

Terra · March 23

winterthur said:

DNA3000 said:

Aecyn said:
I just find it weird that one of the core controls of the game loses its main purpose. Imagine playing and trying to dash forward and it just fails and you stand there... It just feels bad to have timed it right but not have it work. I know your champ still moves backwards but it effectively feels like your controls did nothing. There are work arounds to all the cases that can be found but it's just bad design.
By todays standards, that's a silly complaint, although it mutated several times to talk about "unavoidable damage."
I recalled fighting against Iceman. Dead shortly without both champs being near to each other. 🤔🥳

Red Guardian can block unblockable special, correct?

Yes, but it fractures his shield.

JarlofModesto25 · March 24

Ercarret said:
I don't care too much about it in general* as long as there is a viable way to just not get hit by it. If we take Heimdall, you can just bait out SP1s all day long or deal with his armor up buffs some way. For Photon, you can either tackle her pure light form, or you can just not push her to an SP2.

The problem I have is when a champion shuts down a lot of other ways to tackle their dex-cancelling. If you take Photon, she also can't miss while in her pure light form, which cancels out a huge swathe of the champions who should be able to tackle undexable special attacks. I remember being really annoyed by that when she first arrived to the game since miss and evade were the two solutions I could think of right then and there. It bothers me less nowadays since I now know other ways to deal with it, but it was super annoying at the time.

* I should clarify that I find it annoying when they release several of these types of annoying defenders in close proximity to one another. It makes it very hard to learn how to fight them since you're overwhelmed most of the time.

I agree, if there’s a general way to counter it by any champion I’d understand. I’d even be okay if most mystics could counter it too but most of mine can’t(no idea why all these cosmics are immune to fate seal). I don’t have anyone who’s ideal for him to be able to solo

JarlofModesto25 · March 24

DNA3000 said:

Aecyn said:
I just find it weird that one of the core controls of the game loses its main purpose. Imagine playing and trying to dash forward and it just fails and you stand there... It just feels bad to have timed it right but not have it work. I know your champ still moves backwards but it effectively feels like your controls did nothing. There are work arounds to all the cases that can be found but it's just bad design.
Bad design is when something has no counter. The purpose to dashing backwards is no more to prevent taking any damage than the purpose of attacking is to kill the defender. If you fail to kill the defender, that doesn't mean the controls stopped working as intended.

Once upon a time the game had many opportunities to perform 100% perfect blocks. A lot of players thought this was just the way the game should work, and felt it was "bad design" to eliminate that, because how else were players going to be able to play? If we always had to take damage, that was unfair (those exact words were used at the time). By todays standards, that's a silly complaint, although it mutated several times to talk about "unavoidable damage."

The idea that if dash back and dexterity exist, it must always work or that's "bad design" is just another one of those notions that some players get stuck in their head because they accept that all these other things sometimes work and sometimes don't work, but their own sacred cows are not arbitrary but some cosmic truth of game design.

And yeah, I'm sure someone is warming up to say "that's not the same" or "I didn't say X" and hopefully they'll say it late enough that I'll miss it before signing off for the weekend.

There’s many champions who have some sort of unavoidable damage unless you have a counter. Iceman, electro, void. The problem is you can count the number of counters on one hand between serpent and destroyer. Does no one see the problem?? I guess people have just gotten used to being forced to use revives or aren’t doing hard content. I don’t even do wars and I’m mad about it.

Non-dodgable specials???

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