BG turns picking first/second

Aecyn · May 21

Occasionally, going first ends up meaning you get a round three pick where no matter who you pick, you lose. Your defender was the only counter you had for one of their champs.so they put that one as their defender. It's like playing rock paper scissors but your opponent gets to play their choice 10 seconds after you.

Is there any reason that picks can't be simultaneous? Both players have 15 seconds to pick a defender and they both appear at the end of that timer. Then the same for attackers.

The same could be applied in the draft as well. One pick at a time. You still get to react to previous picks and you can see their choice options at the same time as your own.

It changes the strategy but at least there's never an advantage for going second.

GrO_ot78 · May 21

Finally a BG proposal for change, which makes sense and should be easy to implement 👍

ahmynuts · May 21

Why do you think it would be a good idea for people to pick simultaneously? It removes any strategy and critical thinking from the mode.

There's hardly an advantage or disadvantage for picking second.

Nemesis_17 · May 21

Both players would just wait until the last 3 seconds of the draft to try and wait to see what their opponent took. There’s gonna be a lot of accidental wrong champs drafted at the last second. Anyone who watches Brian’s streams will know what I mean lmao.

Aecyn · May 21

You get similar strategical thinking I'm my round three scenario where it's a little more luck based I guess. I was just pondering it. It doesn't happen often and it also can be in your favor when you do go second.

Even if it only applied to the third round. Was more just seeing if it made any sense to try and even out any possibility of an advantage. An alternative to this could also be the system I've seen used in magic the gathering where the loser of the previous round gets to pick who goes first...

Aecyn · May 21

Nemesis_17 said:
Both players would just wait until the last 3 seconds of the draft to try and wait to see what their opponent took. There’s gonna be a lot of accidental wrong champs drafted at the last second. Anyone who watches Brian’s streams will know what I mean lmao.

The picks would only get revealed at the end of the timer. You wouldn't know what they picked until both players made their picks.

PT_99 · May 21

Just win first 2 rounds then lol 😎

Mixtapevol02 · May 21

If the last 3 champs of your opponent directly counters or best your last 3 champs. Then you deserve to lose.

Aecyn · May 21

Mixtapevol02 said:
If the last 3 champs of your opponent directly counters or best your last 3 champs. Then you deserve to lose.

It's more of a rock paper scissors kind of thing where you have a counter for each of theirs and their champs counter yours. But you pick your defender first so they get to attack with their ideal counter and they pick their defender that you no longer have the counter for...

PT_99 said:
Just win first 2 rounds then lol 😎

That works a lot of the time! Haha

Rayven5220 · May 21

Mixtapevol02 said:
If the last 3 champs of your opponent directly counters or best your last 3 champs. Then you deserve to lose.

I honestly agree with this.

Sometimes you gotta throw round 2 to make sure you have a shot at winning round 3 or you end up in a completely lost position.

It's like chess. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a piece to ensure yourself a better position to win later. 😎

Aecyn · May 21

Rayven5220 said:

Mixtapevol02 said:
If the last 3 champs of your opponent directly counters or best your last 3 champs. Then you deserve to lose.
I honestly agree with this.

Sometimes you gotta throw round 2 to make sure you have a shot at winning round 3 or you end up in a completely lost position.

It's like chess. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a piece to ensure yourself a better position to win later. 😎

Definitely. But what if you lost round 1? I know, don't suck, but the match that made me think this up again was just that. Two really close rounds where I had to win the second one... I'm not trying to say the system needs to be changed or anything. More just wondering what if.

This was a really big problem for me when my roster was much smaller and there was that issue with players always going first. I'm fine taking the occasional loss from this now because it also goes the other way but was just wondering if it could be different.

Rayven5220 · May 21

Aecyn said:

Rayven5220 said:

Mixtapevol02 said:
If the last 3 champs of your opponent directly counters or best your last 3 champs. Then you deserve to lose.
I honestly agree with this.

Sometimes you gotta throw round 2 to make sure you have a shot at winning round 3 or you end up in a completely lost position.

It's like chess. Sometimes you have to sacrifice a piece to ensure yourself a better position to win later. 😎
Definitely. But what if you lost round 1? I know, don't suck, but the match that made me think this up again was just that. Two really close rounds where I had to win the second one... I'm not trying to say the system needs to be changed or anything. More just wondering what if.

This was a really big problem for me when my roster was much smaller and there was that issue with players always going first. I'm fine taking the occasional loss from this now because it also goes the other way but was just wondering if it could be different.

If you lose round one, you just gotta not lose round 2 and 3, not much else you can do there.

Sometimes you honestly just get a less than ideal draft and you gotta hope the other guy slips up against your tricky/tanky defenders and you play perfectly in the subsequent rounds.

I get it, I've been there too! 😅

SirGamesBond · May 21

Mixtapevol02 said:
If the last 3 champs of your opponent directly counters or best your last 3 champs. Then you deserve to lose.

Celestial gamur input

Gamer · May 21

Aecyn said:

Nemesis_17 said:
Both players would just wait until the last 3 seconds of the draft to try and wait to see what their opponent took. There’s gonna be a lot of accidental wrong champs drafted at the last second. Anyone who watches Brian’s streams will know what I mean lmao.
The picks would only get revealed at the end of the timer. You wouldn't know what they picked until both players made their picks.

With that’s anyone u draft would had no god way here I Choi ht bump u choice dormamue how that’s good ect it would be way to rng for you point

captain_rogers · May 21

Ok this live example happened today.

My team - bish, abs man and cgr
Opp team - serpent, bish abs man

Opponent have to move first.

Obviously both of us placed abs man and used bish for offense, and I won. But if we have to place simultaneously on last round, I have no idea what would have happened? Will it be a swap game like @Nemesis_17 said, or the opponent had more chance for win, knowing if I play my abs man, then he can safely place his serpent on defense for a clear win? Idk how the solution proposed by OP works in real time

SummonerNR · May 21

Nemesis_17 said:
Both players would just wait until the last 3 seconds of the draft to try and wait to see what their opponent took…

Do you see who your opponent is BANNING in Real-Time, while you are doing your Bans too, to see who you could Ban instead because opponent has already Banned someone you might have considered as a Ban too ??
NO.

And so simultaneous Picking (Defender) would not be revealed to each other until BOTH sides have chosen their Defender.
And same with Attacker, the Attackers for both sides would not get revealed to each other until both have picked theirs.

This suggestion is very good idea, and has been suggested before.

captain_rogers · May 21

SummonerNR said:

Nemesis_17 said:
Both players would just wait until the last 3 seconds of the draft to try and wait to see what their opponent took…
Do you see who your opponent is BANNING in Real-Time, while you are doing your Bans too, to see who you could Ban instead because opponent has already Banned someone you might have considered as a Ban too ??
NO.

And so simultaneous Picking (Defender) would not be revealed to each other until BOTH sides have chosen their Defender.
And same with Attacker, the Attackers for both sides would not get revealed to each other until both have picked theirs.

This suggestion is very good idea, and has been suggested before.

Well in that case, this should be enabled to all 3 rounds, not only for the final round. I see no harm in this, but it will definitely take time for players to adapt for this change. But atleast it makes the mode more fair

GrO_ot78 · May 21

It will be like when one bans champs, no info until both fighters choices have been made.

It will be more exciting, and the disadvantage of choosing first in round 1 disappears...it will be a little fairer...

My experience after becoming Valiant is that picking first in round 1 has gone from about 90% to pretty close to 50/50 now.

Aecyn · May 21

This scenario is pretty rare for me too now that they fixed the rate that you go first. (Did they fix it or did a bunch of us just have insane RNG?) But it does still happen, sometimes to my benefit... Maybe that's fair enough...

SummonerNR · May 21

captain_rogers said:

SummonerNR said:

Nemesis_17 said:
Both players would just wait until the last 3 seconds of the draft to try and wait to see what their opponent took…
Do you see who your opponent is BANNING in Real-Time, while you are doing your Bans too, to see who you could Ban instead because opponent has already Banned someone you might have considered as a Ban too ??
NO.

And so simultaneous Picking (Defender) would not be revealed to each other until BOTH sides have chosen their Defender.
And same with Attacker, the Attackers for both sides would not get revealed to each other until both have picked theirs.

This suggestion is very good idea, and has been suggested before.
Well in that case, this should be enabled to all 3 rounds, not only for the final round. I see no harm in this, but it will definitely take time for players to adapt for this change. But atleast it makes the mode more fair

Agree, yes, it should be for all 3 rounds.

Both pick defender.. then both revealed.
Both pick attacker.. then both revealed.
Fight.
Repeat for Round 1..2..3

Also would help speed things up a little too because you don’t have to wait doing a back-n-forth during those selections.

Nemesis_17 · May 21

SummonerNR said:

Nemesis_17 said:
Both players would just wait until the last 3 seconds of the draft to try and wait to see what their opponent took…
Do you see who your opponent is BANNING in Real-Time, while you are doing your Bans too, to see who you could Ban instead because opponent has already Banned someone you might have considered as a Ban too ??
NO.

And so simultaneous Picking (Defender) would not be revealed to each other until BOTH sides have chosen their Defender.
And same with Attacker, the Attackers for both sides would not get revealed to each other until both have picked theirs.

This suggestion is very good idea, and has been suggested before.

To me that removes part of the strategy aspect. A lot of mismatches can be won by outplaying your opponent during the draft, and sometimes being the one who gets the lucky last draft pick is the only way to do so. Plus, the last pick for each player of the draft is easily the most important one to strategize well. If you can’t see who your opponent drafts, this just introduces more rng. How’s it gonna feel when you passed on your shuri for someone else seemingly more valuable, to learn they picked up their domino right at the end? I understand that OP is trying to prevent scenarios where you get screwed over, which is great. But I think this would only have the opposite effect.

Additionally if I’m not mistaken, doesn’t the person who gets the last draft pick have to place first in round 1&3? Both players get a benefit, either the last draft pick or placing last in the round that usually matters the most. Either one can screw you over, but going into the match you and your opponent have an equal amount of opportunities for that to happen. The only way to completely stop being screwed over in any form would be to remove all rng from the game mode, but then we’d all just pick the same champs every match. And obviously, that wouldn’t be very fun and get repetitive very quickly.

Colinwhitworth69 · May 21

I like it the way it is now. I like watching the other person make decisions to try to grok their strategy, and it gives me more time to think about mine.

Demonzfyre · May 21

Aecyn said:

Mixtapevol02 said:
If the last 3 champs of your opponent directly counters or best your last 3 champs. Then you deserve to lose.
It's more of a rock paper scissors kind of thing where you have a counter for each of theirs and their champs counter yours. But you pick your defender first so they get to attack with their ideal counter and they pick their defender that you no longer have the counter for...
PT_99 said:
Just win first 2 rounds then lol 😎
That works a lot of the time! Haha

The last pick should just be a safety pick anyway. If you're hanging on that last pick then you were probably going to lose anyway.

Kabam Crashed · May 21

The idea of simultaneous assignment of attackers and defenders is something we have talked about before as a variant of Battlegrounds. I agree it could be very interesting, it would definitely have a large impact on how strategy works in the mode. Not necessarily better or worse, but certainly different. It is definitely not something we would want to move to permanently without some sort of trial period. My guess is if we had the tech to do this (which we currently do not) we would rotate between the current system and this variant.

We actually have good data now on the advantage that placing second has, it is small but statistically significant. At some point we will be making small changes to the draft to try to even out the win rate, for instance by giving the player who places first more champions to choose from in certain phases of the draft.

Average_Desi · May 21

ahmynuts said:
Why do you think it would be a good idea for people to pick simultaneously? It removes any strategy and critical thinking from the mode.

There's hardly an advantage or disadvantage for picking second.

That's the point. Why should there be a luck/unlucky advantage in a competitive game mode. Yes the game overall has rng factor but that's not relevant

ahmynuts · May 21

Average_Desi said:

ahmynuts said:
Why do you think it would be a good idea for people to pick simultaneously? It removes any strategy and critical thinking from the mode.

There's hardly an advantage or disadvantage for picking second.
That's the point. Why should there be a luck/unlucky advantage in a competitive game mode. Yes the game overall has rng factor but that's not relevant

I literally said a shorter and snarkier version of what crashed just said at the start of his message. Ask him not me, I'm not a kabam dev (or am i?)

captain_rogers · May 21

ahmynuts said:

Average_Desi said:

ahmynuts said:
Why do you think it would be a good idea for people to pick simultaneously? It removes any strategy and critical thinking from the mode.

There's hardly an advantage or disadvantage for picking second.
That's the point. Why should there be a luck/unlucky advantage in a competitive game mode. Yes the game overall has rng factor but that's not relevant
I literally said a shorter and snarkier version of what crashed just said at the start of his message. Ask him not me, I'm not a kabam dev (or am i?)

You are the last person I'll suspect to work for kabam, lol.

SirGamesBond · May 21

ahmynuts said:

Average_Desi said:

ahmynuts said:
Why do you think it would be a good idea for people to pick simultaneously? It removes any strategy and critical thinking from the mode.

There's hardly an advantage or disadvantage for picking second.
That's the point. Why should there be a luck/unlucky advantage in a competitive game mode. Yes the game overall has rng factor but that's not relevant
I literally said a shorter and snarkier version of what crashed just said at the start of his message. Ask him not me, I'm not a kabam dev (or am i?)

And Crashed stated in second half, It's a statistical advantage to place second, making 'hardly an advantage' to 'statistically significant advantage'

Aecyn · May 21

Nemesis_17 said:

Additionally if I’m not mistaken, doesn’t the person who gets the last draft pick have to place first in round 1&3? Both players get a benefit, either the last draft pick or placing last in the round that usually matters the most. Either one can screw you over, but going into the match you and your opponent have an equal amount of opportunities for that to happen. The only way to completely stop being screwed over in any form would be to remove all rng from the game mode, but then we’d all just pick the same champs every match. And obviously, that wouldn’t be very fun and get repetitive very quickly.

The person to pick last in the draft also places second in rounds 1 and 3. Switching that could perhaps help even the win rates. I wonder what the percentages even are. I'm guessing it's not a huge margin in any case.

Nemesis_17 · May 21

Aecyn said:

Nemesis_17 said:

Additionally if I’m not mistaken, doesn’t the person who gets the last draft pick have to place first in round 1&3? Both players get a benefit, either the last draft pick or placing last in the round that usually matters the most. Either one can screw you over, but going into the match you and your opponent have an equal amount of opportunities for that to happen. The only way to completely stop being screwed over in any form would be to remove all rng from the game mode, but then we’d all just pick the same champs every match. And obviously, that wouldn’t be very fun and get repetitive very quickly.
The person to pick last in the draft also places second in rounds 1 and 3. Switching that could perhaps help even the win rates. I wonder what the percentages even are. I'm guessing it's not a huge margin in any case.

Oh fr? Yea I think it would be much better if that were to be flipped.

Mrt9810 · May 21

This makes a lot of sense and for those who are saying it takes the strategy out of drafting that inst true. You will still be reacting to the last round of draft, just not giving one player the opportunity to react more times then the other. And as far as strategy during the matches I get that there are ways to play the opponent but this can still be the case only one player isnt getting a leg up by reacting 2/3 of the time.

BG turns picking first/second

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