So @Kabam Miike how much of this change came from item unit sales being down in this game mode come into play on this decision? I would really love to know. I’m assuming the bottom line for aw was not were you guys would have liked it. I thought the scoring and meta were perfect this past season and the only real issue was the rampant cheating that was plaguing this game mode.
My only regret is hulkbuster. Especially since synergies dont work. I ran hb, ultron, yj, modok, og spidey.. Only thing hb was good for was synergy. Cannon fodder to build other champs up.
@GroundedWisdom Spam is an irrelevant message sent on the internet to a large number of people. So, I argue that some responses should be flaggable as spam for that reason. However, I will give you half a point.. that still is only 1.5 reasons though.
And, I don’t blame the moderator for having to spin blatant money grabbing changes at all. But, the often implausible and irrelevant explanations of why a change should be flaggable.
Shortening the season to 4 weeks while keeping the minimum for rewards at 5 is a pretty big kick in the nuts to more casual alliances who don't run constant war.
like the shorter season but the price to complete the maps just quadrupled. No more free fights and harder nodes.
So, with the exception of those Nodes on Challenger and Expert that we mentioned, we haven't made any other nodes harder. The new Nodes are meant to make things more difficult, but will also be visible from the get go, so Attackers are able to bring in champions to specifically counter whatever Champion they see there.
Removing diversity is much more important than the new nodes. There's gonna be 10+ IMIWs and Dorms on every map. I get why you did it, but it just stinks for the players.
I don't think anybody wants to place 10 Dormammu on a Map anymore... The Meta has shifted quite a bit since Diversity was introduced, and some of the former best Defenders have met their match now. Others may seem difficult right now, but Players have already started to find the counters needed for them! This will continue to happen in cycles, because that's just the nature of a game like this!
The "meta" might have shifted, but there are still enormous gaps between the best defenders and the worst defenders, and without defender diversity points everyone will place what they believe to be the best possible defenders, which is very likely going to involve placing a lot of multiples of the same defender. Maybe it won't be ten Dormammus. Maybe in some tiers it will be eight Nightcrawlers, or nine Hyperions, or certainly ten IMIWs and Dominos.
I spoke out against defender diversity points in the first place, way back in 14.0. I believed then and I still believe now they are not the best way to deal with the issue of non-diverse defenses. But they have such a dramatic impact on the kinds of defenses that alliances face on offense, and on the kinds of rank up decisions alliances make on defense, that you cannot just keep flipping it off and on. You cannot just say the game changes in "cycles" and players have to simply adjust, because this involves rank up decisions that take place on a time scale of months and even sometimes years.
I almost always argue against RDTs and I almost always argue that players must make their decisions with the full understanding that the game will change over time. I do not believe it is reasonable for them to expect perfect information about the future. But game evolution must account for what resources the game gives players to adjust to that evolution. Good game design doesn't just factor in what the developers think the game needs. It also acknowledges what the playerbase is capable of doing to evolve with the game. Telling players you flipped diversity points on because you thought it was a good idea and now you're flipping them off because you don't think they are a good idea any more but if you change your mind you'll just flip them back on again is unjustifiably capricious. I believe in game developer discretion, but this goes way over the line of what's justifiable discretion.
Kabam shouldn't have added diversity points to the game in the first place, but now that they have Kabam is responsible for the effects they have had on how the game is played, and also responsible for the disruptions that will occur if you rip them back out of the game. And Kabam cannot write this off as something that is just in "the nature" of a game like this, because no, in a game that includes competitive elements like alliance war, the rules of that competition are not generally allowed to simply be altered at will. That is contrary to the integrity of fair competition. It is not common practice, such changes usually require very high bars of justification, which Kabam has not given here.
I think Kabam keeps forgetting alliance war is a competition. Their balance concerns seem to be naively single-player based. They seem to keep signaling that they are concerned about how easy or difficult AW is, when they should be focusing on how fair it is and how consistently it decides who won relative to competitor expectations of who should have won. As long as those two criteria are being met, AW is a good competition. The "difficulty" of the competition is relatively unimportant as long as it is difficult enough to gauge the winner correctly. But Kabam seems to be treating AW like it is quest content that happens to have a competition side bet going on concurrently. That's kind of a problem unto itself.
Have any of the higher-end alliance shown some opinion on the matter yet, or are they too high up to bother expressing their opinions with us peasants?
Yes they have and I'm the leader of a 21 million alliance and we're all not spending a dime until they provide rank down tickets for ranking up champs that we woudnt otherwise. I guarantee they talked about today to remove diversity.
And this is my biggest issue. This decision affects all of us. From top to bottom tier. It's a silly and illogical move. No pros and all negative. They can do way better than this...
Have any of the higher-end alliance shown some opinion on the matter yet, or are they too high up to bother expressing their opinions with us peasants?
Well I’m in the rank 2 alliance for this season and was in the rank 3 alliance for last season. I think this change to diversity is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. They told us to do one thing and then they completely changed it and basically said “don’t worry we will probably change it again so you can’t make any informed decisions and good luck”
It's wonderful you guys plan on doing all these changes to aw, but can we also expect changes on how champs are made and released into the game? a bit more testing on them and have you listen to our feedback? a rework for old champions like the one Rulk and LC got so our old champions aren't just gathering dust?.
Domino is a prime example of how we don't want new champions to be, because even if you say people has no reason to put 10 dormamus in the map, why they would not put a champ with no clear counter and unavoidable damage such as domino? a champion that is working even beyond intended, even breaking through our blocks. Just clarifying that's a bug doesn't solve the problem...saying "we are passing along your feedback to the team" isn't a soulturion neither.
The meta of mcoc are champions themselves, there's where you have to start to make real changes to the game, but of course, why would we care about something that serve us and only harm the players, right kabam?
I guarantee we see diversity again. Wait 6 months to a year, add 20+ champs, and debut a new (Larger) map and there you have it folks. Diversity is back and if you wanna stop by for a .91% increased chance at the new revive inhaling champ you’ll be needing for that spreadsheet win then empty your pockets.
Other than shortened timeline there’s no value being added to AW Seasons. Putting lipstick on a pig still makes it a pig so please stop acting like every change is some magnificent addition. Rolling out monthly tweaks followed by larger quarterly changes is already hard enough to keep up with. Turnaround times, delayed updates, and constant excuses are everlasting and offensive to the player community. Lately I’m beginning to question the timeline of this games existence based on other things that have been said to us....
thank goodness i decided to take a break from top end game ally ... the push for top 3 going to be rough in Season 3 ... and the maps will continue to be cleared 100%.
Please listen to @DNA3000 more and consider implementing his ideas.
Would like kabam verification on updated scoring system.
Does it still ignore common senses and fundamental mathematics?
Since the AW overhaul you are sticking with a fixed cap scoring system the SAME for all alliances. And removing 1 if the scoring categories?
The purpose of this new updated AW scorIng change is to reduce 100% exploring with maximizing difficulty and then wait and see???
Still not thinking about rewarding skill based points that aren’t capped (defender kills).
Or the obvious solution. Make it not possible to get 100% EVER by adding more paths and different ways of killing the boss with difficulty weighed into the score. Like countless real contest??
Most important question for @Kabam Miike does the Meta show these changes are helping the psyche of all those players you were concerned with. How the pressure of not giving away defender kills was ruining their fun.... what was that nonsense you posted back then? Hard to keep up.
Have any of the higher-end alliance shown some opinion on the matter yet, or are they too high up to bother expressing their opinions with us peasants?
Well I’m in the rank 2 alliance for this season and was in the rank 3 alliance for last season. I think this change to diversity is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. They told us to do one thing and then they completely changed it and basically said “don’t worry we will probably change it again so you can’t make any informed decisions and good luck”
Agreed...that’s where unfortunately I found bringing the rosters up to be both a major progress speed bump and a “counter” to figuring out who where the kabam thought process roulette lands.
There is actually a quite simple solution to this obvious money grab by Kabam. All leaders tell your alliances that every war will be itemless. At the beginning of each attack phase, pose an itemless war to your opponents as well. Let skill be the deciding factor rather than money. If they choose not to accept, that’s on them. See how quick things change when the revenue stream for AW drops dramatically.
Have any of the higher-end alliance shown some opinion on the matter yet, or are they too high up to bother expressing their opinions with us peasants?
Well I’m in the rank 2 alliance for this season and was in the rank 3 alliance for last season. I think this change to diversity is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. They told us to do one thing and then they completely changed it and basically said “don’t worry we will probably change it again so you can’t make any informed decisions and good luck”
Agreed...that’s where unfortunately I found bringing the rosters up to be both a major progress speed bump and a “counter” to figuring out who where the kabam thought process roulette lands.
Unfortunately, people are fighting for RDT’s which will only help a very specific alliance. If diversity goes I hope we never see rank down tickets ever again as each one will be worth so much more. This is a horrible decision by Kabam and will be made even worse by RDT’s.
I hope Kabam change their minds about diversity. They’ve ruined this game for so many if they get rid of it. Honestly I’m baffled how they thought this was good for the game.
Miike for gods sake tell the higher ups they really need an open connection with the player base thats better than this. I know your just the messenger in these situations but the reason people flip out from changes is because most people love the game but hate seeing the direction its going in. I enjoy wars its a nice competitive mode but these consistent issues with cheating and ridiculously drastic changes with no compensation what so ever is a huge slap in the face to the player base that keeps this game running. Im glad piloting has been addressed but I absolutely know atleast 3 alliances who piloted last season and watched as they were never reduced even had a laugj about it because clearly its something that cant be 100% enforced but these people are spending upwards to $1000 a week on this game and we get reskinned game modes and around left and right. Some dont like the enormous stress from Aw all the time. And the lack of love for aq at this point is just ridiculous. We need a quality of life update here or the veteran players are gonna eventually just call it quits. Shouldnt bite the hand that feeds you.
Have any of the higher-end alliance shown some opinion on the matter yet, or are they too high up to bother expressing their opinions with us peasants?
Well I’m in the rank 2 alliance for this season and was in the rank 3 alliance for last season. I think this change to diversity is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. They told us to do one thing and then they completely changed it and basically said “don’t worry we will probably change it again so you can’t make any informed decisions and good luck”
Agreed...that’s where unfortunately I found bringing the rosters up to be both a major progress speed bump and a “counter” to figuring out who where the kabam thought process roulette lands.
Unfortunately, people are fighting for RDT’s which will only help a very specific alliance. If diversity goes I hope we never see rank down tickets ever again as each one will be worth so much more. This is a horrible decision by Kabam and will be made even worse by RDT’s.
I hope Kabam change their minds about diversity. They’ve ruined this game for so many if they get rid of it. Honestly I’m baffled how they thought this was good for the game.
I'll probably not be the first to say this, but these changes are absolute trash. So, you tell us you don't want us to feel bad if we die in war and then you remove kill points and then add attack bonuses which puts it back in. Then you say you don't want us lining the whole map with NC's and dorms, so you create diversity. People took ****, yes absolute **** champs, to r4 like King Groot or Ant-Man to be diverse and now you tell us it was never meant to be a deciding factor and remove it?
You sound like a bunch of backpedaling politicians. Thanks for reinstating The Wall of IMIF and Dorms. Are you going to make it illegal for us to have players outside of the US without a US passport next?
1. You should issue rank down tickets. This change institutes a fundamental change in the way people will see the game and rank champs.
2. You should allow us to see what champs are in our lanes in AW instead of them being hidden. If I'm going to have to fight 11 Medusa's, I'd like to at least know before I bring my old hat champs that you have forced me to rank. This would at least make it fair.
3. Can you just admit you are trying to make this game pay to play. These changes basically make your credit card the most powerful champ in the game.
I'm the last free to play player I know. We're a dying breed.
Have any of the higher-end alliance shown some opinion on the matter yet, or are they too high up to bother expressing their opinions with us peasants?
Well I’m in the rank 2 alliance for this season and was in the rank 3 alliance for last season. I think this change to diversity is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. They told us to do one thing and then they completely changed it and basically said “don’t worry we will probably change it again so you can’t make any informed decisions and good luck”
Agreed...that’s where unfortunately I found bringing the rosters up to be both a major progress speed bump and a “counter” to figuring out who where the kabam thought process roulette lands.
Unfortunately, people are fighting for RDT’s which will only help a very specific alliance. If diversity goes I hope we never see rank down tickets ever again as each one will be worth so much more. This is a horrible decision by Kabam and will be made even worse by RDT’s.
I hope Kabam change their minds about diversity. They’ve ruined this game for so many if they get rid of it. Honestly I’m baffled how they thought this was good for the game.
Yeah, I’d say I’m a bit 50/50 on the RDTs. I understand why people would want them, but at the same time, you can’t help but ask them, “you do realize you are falling for the trap, right?”
I hope they do too. It took 2 seasons to finally have a decent diversity group...if I have to deal with the good ole NC/Magik/domino/etc paths...I’m sure others would say that being annoyed is putting it lightly (and to miike’ “that’s not the meta of the game” counter...those kind of ally’s have been run into...people still go for spite defenses)
Did any effort go into “fixing” Synergies for AW defenders????
At least that would give some value back to the people who invested in Lesser champs for the purpose of AW defense assuming they were making defense tougher And getting diverisisry points..
Instead of added 5 more minis and new nodes go fix that
Diversity removed, lol! What happened to all those lofty goals when they revamped AW with a new map and point system?
Can we go back to the AW map for season 1, with updated nodes, so 98%-100% exploration isn't the norm?
This is what they've yet to understand. It's the map that determines if people go for 100%, not the nodes. In the old map you have 3 lanes going to each mini, so you had to decide if you'd send people right to ht mini or to explore. They just don't get it.
Comments
And, I don’t blame the moderator for having to spin blatant money grabbing changes at all. But, the often implausible and irrelevant explanations of why a change should be flaggable.
The "meta" might have shifted, but there are still enormous gaps between the best defenders and the worst defenders, and without defender diversity points everyone will place what they believe to be the best possible defenders, which is very likely going to involve placing a lot of multiples of the same defender. Maybe it won't be ten Dormammus. Maybe in some tiers it will be eight Nightcrawlers, or nine Hyperions, or certainly ten IMIWs and Dominos.
I spoke out against defender diversity points in the first place, way back in 14.0. I believed then and I still believe now they are not the best way to deal with the issue of non-diverse defenses. But they have such a dramatic impact on the kinds of defenses that alliances face on offense, and on the kinds of rank up decisions alliances make on defense, that you cannot just keep flipping it off and on. You cannot just say the game changes in "cycles" and players have to simply adjust, because this involves rank up decisions that take place on a time scale of months and even sometimes years.
I almost always argue against RDTs and I almost always argue that players must make their decisions with the full understanding that the game will change over time. I do not believe it is reasonable for them to expect perfect information about the future. But game evolution must account for what resources the game gives players to adjust to that evolution. Good game design doesn't just factor in what the developers think the game needs. It also acknowledges what the playerbase is capable of doing to evolve with the game. Telling players you flipped diversity points on because you thought it was a good idea and now you're flipping them off because you don't think they are a good idea any more but if you change your mind you'll just flip them back on again is unjustifiably capricious. I believe in game developer discretion, but this goes way over the line of what's justifiable discretion.
Kabam shouldn't have added diversity points to the game in the first place, but now that they have Kabam is responsible for the effects they have had on how the game is played, and also responsible for the disruptions that will occur if you rip them back out of the game. And Kabam cannot write this off as something that is just in "the nature" of a game like this, because no, in a game that includes competitive elements like alliance war, the rules of that competition are not generally allowed to simply be altered at will. That is contrary to the integrity of fair competition. It is not common practice, such changes usually require very high bars of justification, which Kabam has not given here.
I think Kabam keeps forgetting alliance war is a competition. Their balance concerns seem to be naively single-player based. They seem to keep signaling that they are concerned about how easy or difficult AW is, when they should be focusing on how fair it is and how consistently it decides who won relative to competitor expectations of who should have won. As long as those two criteria are being met, AW is a good competition. The "difficulty" of the competition is relatively unimportant as long as it is difficult enough to gauge the winner correctly. But Kabam seems to be treating AW like it is quest content that happens to have a competition side bet going on concurrently. That's kind of a problem unto itself.
And this is my biggest issue. This decision affects all of us. From top to bottom tier. It's a silly and illogical move. No pros and all negative. They can do way better than this...
Well I’m in the rank 2 alliance for this season and was in the rank 3 alliance for last season. I think this change to diversity is the dumbest thing I’ve ever heard. They told us to do one thing and then they completely changed it and basically said “don’t worry we will probably change it again so you can’t make any informed decisions and good luck”
Domino is a prime example of how we don't want new champions to be, because even if you say people has no reason to put 10 dormamus in the map, why they would not put a champ with no clear counter and unavoidable damage such as domino? a champion that is working even beyond intended, even breaking through our blocks. Just clarifying that's a bug doesn't solve the problem...saying "we are passing along your feedback to the team" isn't a soulturion neither.
The meta of mcoc are champions themselves, there's where you have to start to make real changes to the game, but of course, why would we care about something that serve us and only harm the players, right kabam?
I mean if people can get away for 2 season why not try for a 3rd
Other than shortened timeline there’s no value being added to AW Seasons. Putting lipstick on a pig still makes it a pig so please stop acting like every change is some magnificent addition. Rolling out monthly tweaks followed by larger quarterly changes is already hard enough to keep up with. Turnaround times, delayed updates, and constant excuses are everlasting and offensive to the player community. Lately I’m beginning to question the timeline of this games existence based on other things that have been said to us....
Please listen to @DNA3000 more and consider implementing his ideas.
Yea, this is going to be the faces in AW Def placement we are going to see soon ....
(from Infobot)
Does it still ignore common senses and fundamental mathematics?
Since the AW overhaul you are sticking with a fixed cap scoring system the SAME for all alliances. And removing 1 if the scoring categories?
The purpose of this new updated AW scorIng change is to reduce 100% exploring with maximizing difficulty and then wait and see???
Still not thinking about rewarding skill based points that aren’t capped (defender kills).
Or the obvious solution. Make it not possible to get 100% EVER by adding more paths and different ways of killing the boss with difficulty weighed into the score. Like countless real contest??
Most important question for
@Kabam Miike does the Meta show these changes are helping the psyche of all those players you were concerned with. How the pressure of not giving away defender kills was ruining their fun.... what was that nonsense you posted back then? Hard to keep up.
Agreed...that’s where unfortunately I found bringing the rosters up to be both a major progress speed bump and a “counter” to figuring out who where the kabam thought process roulette lands.
Unfortunately, people are fighting for RDT’s which will only help a very specific alliance. If diversity goes I hope we never see rank down tickets ever again as each one will be worth so much more. This is a horrible decision by Kabam and will be made even worse by RDT’s.
I hope Kabam change their minds about diversity. They’ve ruined this game for so many if they get rid of it. Honestly I’m baffled how they thought this was good for the game.
Sir you dont know what you are talking about.
You sound like a bunch of backpedaling politicians. Thanks for reinstating The Wall of IMIF and Dorms. Are you going to make it illegal for us to have players outside of the US without a US passport next?
1. You should issue rank down tickets. This change institutes a fundamental change in the way people will see the game and rank champs.
2. You should allow us to see what champs are in our lanes in AW instead of them being hidden. If I'm going to have to fight 11 Medusa's, I'd like to at least know before I bring my old hat champs that you have forced me to rank. This would at least make it fair.
3. Can you just admit you are trying to make this game pay to play. These changes basically make your credit card the most powerful champ in the game.
I'm the last free to play player I know. We're a dying breed.
Yeah, I’d say I’m a bit 50/50 on the RDTs. I understand why people would want them, but at the same time, you can’t help but ask them, “you do realize you are falling for the trap, right?”
I hope they do too. It took 2 seasons to finally have a decent diversity group...if I have to deal with the good ole NC/Magik/domino/etc paths...I’m sure others would say that being annoyed is putting it lightly (and to miike’ “that’s not the meta of the game” counter...those kind of ally’s have been run into...people still go for spite defenses)
At least that would give some value back to the people who invested in Lesser champs for the purpose of AW defense assuming they were making defense tougher And getting diverisisry points..
Instead of added 5 more minis and new nodes go fix that
This is what they've yet to understand. It's the map that determines if people go for 100%, not the nodes. In the old map you have 3 lanes going to each mini, so you had to decide if you'd send people right to ht mini or to explore. They just don't get it.