Gifting Badge Discussion [Merged Threads]

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  • Wakandas_FinestWakandas_Finest Posts: 275 ★★
    Dshu said:

    It

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Drooped2 said:

    To be fair, I understand that people are upset. I'm not trying to snub them off. I'm just explaining what's going on so people understand. This was necessary. People were being scammed and frauded. That goes beyond just the monetary value in a multitude of ways.

    Correct I bought a gifting badge and got scammed because I dont have it.

    Fixing fraud by committing fraud? That's a new solution for sure
    This is not fraud, it is hardly even a bait and switch since the gifting badge had a value of 0
    If the badge had a value of 0 why wasn't it available in game for purchase with units or added to all unit offers. It appears to be valued at 30 dollars since that is the only way to get it
    It is not valued at $30, 850 units is. As an added bonus you could get the free gifting badge. You get $30 value from the units and a FREE gifting badge.
    If the badge is free why are you required to buy the 30 dollar deal to get it. The units are free the badge costs 30 dollars
    the unit package costs $30, you can go look now.
    Free is something you get without cost. Was there ever a way to get a permanent gifting badge without spending money? Was the gifting badge offered whith any other in game purchases at lower price point? If the only way to get the permanent gifting badge was from the 30 dollar offer then that was what people were buying. Any units or other items that were given at the time of purchase would have been the bonus items. Yes the unit pack is the same cost as the one offered with the gifting badge but that isn't the point. The only way to get the permanent badge is to spend 30 dollars so it was never free.
    mathematically you got it without cost. you paid $30 for 850 units, you got 850 units, that leaves a net 0, you then for that 0 got a gifting badge. It was a free incentive to get you tobuy because they known on average if they can get you to buy they can get you to buy more
    You keep going back to the fact that it came with units but is it available in any other way in the game or through any other offer. Show me any other way to get this item and I'll gladly except your argument
    I dont have to..If you go to the store and you see a lollipop and they said free lollipop with the purchase of a $1 candy bar, if you by the candy bar and dont like the lollipop they are not going to give you any money back, it was free. You buying the candy bar only because it came with the lollipop does not matter.
    Where in that offer does it state the gifting badge is the free item.
    It's implied since the unit offer is always 850 units for $30 the fact that you are getting an additional item at no extra cost implies that the additional item is free
    Implied? So it doesn't actually state it. So it's an assumption that the badge is the free item. I guess that by this logic we must assume kabam always has the summoners best interests in mind when making these decisions and we who question it are all wrong and should remain silent. Makes perfect sense
    Pretty big leap in logic by you but it doesn't change the fact that the everyday offer is 850 units for $30. Anything added to that offer without adding to the cost is logically free. You are getting an additional item at no extra cost how is that not free
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 7,298 ★★★★★

    Garthrym said:

    xNig said:

    I’m gonna be objective here.

    Lastly, because this issue affects peoples’ real life as it pertains to fraud, I can see why Kabam was given no choice but to put a stop to it. I agree that it’s the actions of the minority that harmed the whole community, but doesn’t everything in life work this way? That’s why we have rules and laws to protect the majority from the actions of the minority.

    Although I agree with your overarching point, the above uses faulty logic. In real life, beating someone with a baseball bat is illegal. There are a minority of people who do it, anyway. If they get caught, prosecuted, and are found guilty, they go to jail. The courts take away their baseball bat.

    What Kabam decided to do is rather than investigating and prosecuting the majority of the violators (in the case of this very simple exercise), they decided to ban baseball bats for everyone. I'm not happy with this solution, as gifting was literally the only lifeline I have to certain Alliance members (it's a skill level thing, and while they love the game, the skill just isn't there. Not being able to send revives will be sorely missed). No, mine isn't a hardcore Alliance, but it was a fun, casual Alliance, and I will miss those that wander off to easier pastures.

    That being said, I expect Kabam simply lacked the manpower to execute an investigation of such a broad scope in the time they allotted themselves to address the specter of fraud. So I will choke on my 300 credits and keep playing my most beloved/despised game/hobby. I grind my teeth at being refunded 300 of the 850 credits that $30 is worth, especially since I know awarding that extra 550 isn't going to do much at all to their bottom line and would go a long way toward building goodwill with a battered and weary honest player base.

    It's times like these I like to remember what William "Canada Bill" Jones once said: "I know it's crooked, but it's the only game in town."
    Nice argument except you couldn't be more wrong. Kabam gas already stated that the issue isn't just about abuse of the gifting system. Players personal information was being compromised. That's something that can't be detected until reported which of course is too late for the victim. To prevent future players from being victimized the only sensible thing kabam could do is remove the means by which they were being victimized hence the removal of the gifting badge.

    There seems to be some confusion about this in the thread, so for the record I don't believe that the gifting mechanism itself was somehow being used to compromise player private information. Rather, there was some kind of activity going on that involved compromising people's financial information and gifting was a link in the chain for that activity. Because they cannot trivially stop the activity itself, they are breaking the link in the chain they have the most control over. As I've been saying for years now and I think most people still seem to be unaware of, you don't buy anything from Kabam, and Kabam has no idea whose spending what on what. All your purchases are with Apple or Google, and only they have the information you'd need to try to track down fraud; information they will not share with app vendors for any reason (as this would violate their own privacy policies).

    That's why there's no such thing as "fraudulent units" (because it is essentially Apple and Google that "pay" for every single unit sold in the game - the money comes from them) and why fraudulent or exploitive activity related to transactions is so difficult to trace or discover by app vendors themselves. In a sense, the app store operators (Apple and Google) are money launderers. All their money is "clean" of any bad actors.
  • peasantpeasant Posts: 240
    Let's just remember we don't know the scope of the fraud as well as Kabam, so give it some time. Maybe it's something google and apple are looking into as well. I hope those frauds get wrecked. Plus, I'm sure Kabam are going to keep increasing the rewards gained in the game.
  • Rwj_2Rwj_2 Posts: 5

    Tsunani said:

    Badrose said:

    May someone explain what fraud are

    This is not something that can be done on an account by account basis. Taking action on their account wouldn't stop them from creating a new one.

    Tsunani said:

    Badrose said:

    May someone explain what fraud are we talking about? It's just for people sending stuff to their second account???


    No, we mean real world Fraud that includes stolen information and fraudulent purchases.
    So the problem is with the purchases, not with gifts, remove the purchase hability
    This is not something that can be done on an account by account basis. Taking action on their account wouldn't stop them from creating a new one.
    @Kabam Miike

    Since the gifting badge was no longer available, it was exclusive to those that had purchased it in the past, how could a new account get one? Wouldn't dealing with it on an account by account basis therefore work perfectly?
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 7,298 ★★★★★

    Blame the people exploiting the game.

    I blame them for this thread.
  • DshuDshu Posts: 846 ★★★

    Dshu said:

    It

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Drooped2 said:

    To be fair, I understand that people are upset. I'm not trying to snub them off. I'm just explaining what's going on so people understand. This was necessary. People were being scammed and frauded. That goes beyond just the monetary value in a multitude of ways.

    Correct I bought a gifting badge and got scammed because I dont have it.

    Fixing fraud by committing fraud? That's a new solution for sure
    This is not fraud, it is hardly even a bait and switch since the gifting badge had a value of 0
    If the badge had a value of 0 why wasn't it available in game for purchase with units or added to all unit offers. It appears to be valued at 30 dollars since that is the only way to get it
    It is not valued at $30, 850 units is. As an added bonus you could get the free gifting badge. You get $30 value from the units and a FREE gifting badge.
    If the badge is free why are you required to buy the 30 dollar deal to get it. The units are free the badge costs 30 dollars
    the unit package costs $30, you can go look now.
    Free is something you get without cost. Was there ever a way to get a permanent gifting badge without spending money? Was the gifting badge offered whith any other in game purchases at lower price point? If the only way to get the permanent gifting badge was from the 30 dollar offer then that was what people were buying. Any units or other items that were given at the time of purchase would have been the bonus items. Yes the unit pack is the same cost as the one offered with the gifting badge but that isn't the point. The only way to get the permanent badge is to spend 30 dollars so it was never free.
    mathematically you got it without cost. you paid $30 for 850 units, you got 850 units, that leaves a net 0, you then for that 0 got a gifting badge. It was a free incentive to get you tobuy because they known on average if they can get you to buy they can get you to buy more
    You keep going back to the fact that it came with units but is it available in any other way in the game or through any other offer. Show me any other way to get this item and I'll gladly except your argument
    I dont have to..If you go to the store and you see a lollipop and they said free lollipop with the purchase of a $1 candy bar, if you by the candy bar and dont like the lollipop they are not going to give you any money back, it was free. You buying the candy bar only because it came with the lollipop does not matter.
    Where in that offer does it state the gifting badge is the free item.
    It's implied since the unit offer is always 850 units for $30 the fact that you are getting an additional item at no extra cost implies that the additional item is free
    Implied? So it doesn't actually state it. So it's an assumption that the badge is the free item. I guess that by this logic we must assume kabam always has the summoners best interests in mind when making these decisions and we who question it are all wrong and should remain silent. Makes perfect sense
    Pretty big leap in logic by you but it doesn't change the fact that the everyday offer is 850 units for $30. Anything added to that offer without adding to the cost is logically free. You are getting an additional item at no extra cost how is that not free
    Exactly where is the leap in logic? You said its implied so it's your assumption that the badge is free. If it's a free item how else can it be obtained in the game?
  • Iron_web93Iron_web93 Posts: 52
    AndiYTDE said:

    OMC_Pinto said:

    I would like to see Kabam comment on the factors for determining that 300 units was the ideal amount? People who have used the gifting badge after purchase prob spent more units sending items to teammates that they wouldnt have normally spent without the badge. Obviously quantifying an exact unit amount would be a large undertaking but I would have expected the number to be closer to the minimum units provided for purchasing (850 in the $29.99 package).

    It's pretty hard to decide what the value of any given thing is to everybody. Technically, the Gifting Badge had no value, as it was a free add on to a Unit Pack that contained 850 Units, but that doesn't mean that it had no value to everybody, as some may have purchased the package just for that and not the units.
    This. People didn't even purchase the Badge. It came, accompanied with 850 Units, sold for the regular value of said package. It was quite literally free. We just got 300 Units for a free gift.
    It was necessary. If anyone is to be blamed, it's the ones who ruined it for everyone.
    Oh, there he is...
    Why was the badge free? How could you get the badge for free? As far as I know, you had to pay at least 30$ to ge the badge permanently, which means its value is at least 30$. Thus the compensation should cover 30$
    You are forgetting the 850 units you also received. So the badge itself is NOT $30. In fact, Kabam just priced it at 300 units, so more like $10.
  • Drooped2Drooped2 Posts: 3,137 ★★★★★
    Damnit it happened again.
    I came here angry I vented I got a refund from apple.
    I calmed down and read everyone's posts and became disgusted by the communities actions.

    The way people talk here just man it's all compensation this and that. Always demanding more then what was lost.

    Just stop solve the issue and walk away
  • MayleutMayleut Posts: 11
    I totally agree with what is being said here, 300 units is a poor excuse for compensation kabam.
    Both myself and my missus have gifting badges on our account which cost us £30 each for a starks case with 850 units, if we are not going to at most get our money back, the very least you can do is give 850 units. The majority again being punished for those few at the top who are abusing the system.
  • May_The_WayMay_The_Way Posts: 282 ★★
    jeeppilot said:

    $29.99 or the going offer in game of 850 units, that is what I expect to get back, not this bs of 300 units, kabam is a disgrace of a company.

    I’m F2P, so this has no effect on me. But WTH!!??!! People spent actual cash on Gifting Badges. $30 in US Terms, & depending on where you are, might be more or less. This is actual fraud. Seriously, I have no idea how the Apple Store is even allowing this. Take away the badge... IDC. But @Kabam Miike these people need to be refunded. You can’t just sell something, then snatch it away. That’s practically stealing dude.
  • GarthrymGarthrym Posts: 4
    DNA3000 said:

    Garthrym said:

    xNig said:

    I’m gonna be objective here.

    Lastly, because this issue affects peoples’ real life as it pertains to fraud, I can see why Kabam was given no choice but to put a stop to it. I agree that it’s the actions of the minority that harmed the whole community, but doesn’t everything in life work this way? That’s why we have rules and laws to protect the majority from the actions of the minority.

    Although I agree with your overarching point, the above uses faulty logic. In real life, beating someone with a baseball bat is illegal. There are a minority of people who do it, anyway. If they get caught, prosecuted, and are found guilty, they go to jail. The courts take away their baseball bat.

    What Kabam decided to do is rather than investigating and prosecuting the majority of the violators (in the case of this very simple exercise), they decided to ban baseball bats for everyone.
    Actually, in real life what this is closest to is that sometimes in online games trading and gifting get exploited and sometimes in ways that are extremely difficult to simply block or prevent. When that happens, the game operators often temporarily suspend the ability to gift or trade until they can come up with a way to prevent the exploits from occurring.

    This is a lot like that.
    Please remember I was addressing the faulty logic in the user statement that included: "I agree that it’s the actions of the minority that harmed the whole community, but doesn’t everything in life work this way?" Quoting out of context should be avoided in order to minimize confusion.

    And yes, games are as much a part of real life as baseball bats. :) It's a bummer that some people chose to exploit the game. In theory, Kabam could have done more to investigate, change the game code, or a dozen other things. In reality, this is what they chose to do, and all tough choices have consequences, good and bad. That is the reality of taking away something from people who were enjoying using a tool as intended.
  • AuceAuce Posts: 100
    Mayleut said:

    I totally agree with what is being said here, 300 units is a poor excuse for compensation kabam.
    Both myself and my missus have gifting badges on our account which cost us £30 each for a starks case with 850 units, if we are not going to at most get our money back, the very least you can do is give 850 units. The majority again being punished for those few at the top who are abusing the system.

    You already got the 850 units, why should you get a double refund? The units is what you purchased and probably used.
  • DshuDshu Posts: 846 ★★★
    I go to a car dealership to buy a Corvette. I buy the car with a v8 engine. A few weeks later the dealership comes buy takes my engine and replaced it with a 4 cylinder engine. They can apparently do this because a minority of people were driving too fast and the car is still a Corvette correct. Just trying to understand your logic
  • Iron_web93Iron_web93 Posts: 52
    Medjar said:

    OMC_Pinto said:

    I would like to see Kabam comment on the factors for determining that 300 units was the ideal amount? People who have used the gifting badge after purchase prob spent more units sending items to teammates that they wouldnt have normally spent without the badge. Obviously quantifying an exact unit amount would be a large undertaking but I would have expected the number to be closer to the minimum units provided for purchasing (850 in the $29.99 package).

    It's pretty hard to decide what the value of any given thing is to everybody. Technically, the Gifting Badge had no value, as it was a free add on to a Unit Pack that contained 850 Units, but that doesn't mean that it had no value to everybody, as some may have purchased the package just for that and not the units.
    This. People didn't even purchase the Badge. It came, accompanied with 850 Units, sold for the regular value of said package. It was quite literally free. We just got 300 Units for a free gift.
    It was necessary. If anyone is to be blamed, it's the ones who ruined it for everyone.
    I would have NEVER bought those units without the gifting badge. In fact, I never bought units until I bought the badge. And I do so to help out my friends in the community.
    Understandable. So you would return the 850 units and the 300 they just gifted you in return for your $30 back? If so, then I see reason for you to be upset. Otherwise, not so much.
  • liquidkarmaliquidkarma Posts: 79
    my comment appears to have been deleted
    maybe because it had a link i'm not sure, but i do not think it violated anything? i will try again without a link.
    i do not think most people know, but you can also submit this or anything to the
    Better Business Bureau.
    i will not link to it again but if you google for better business bureau and kabam it will be one of the first results.
    seems shady they deleted my comment about it as well, the
    Better Business Bureau
    is an important service for all who participate in the economy. in my opinion it is like being able to VOTE except for businesses.
    it's just democracy.
  • DNA3000DNA3000 Posts: 7,298 ★★★★★
    Garthrym said:

    DNA3000 said:

    Garthrym said:

    xNig said:

    I’m gonna be objective here.

    Lastly, because this issue affects peoples’ real life as it pertains to fraud, I can see why Kabam was given no choice but to put a stop to it. I agree that it’s the actions of the minority that harmed the whole community, but doesn’t everything in life work this way? That’s why we have rules and laws to protect the majority from the actions of the minority.

    Although I agree with your overarching point, the above uses faulty logic. In real life, beating someone with a baseball bat is illegal. There are a minority of people who do it, anyway. If they get caught, prosecuted, and are found guilty, they go to jail. The courts take away their baseball bat.

    What Kabam decided to do is rather than investigating and prosecuting the majority of the violators (in the case of this very simple exercise), they decided to ban baseball bats for everyone.
    Actually, in real life what this is closest to is that sometimes in online games trading and gifting get exploited and sometimes in ways that are extremely difficult to simply block or prevent. When that happens, the game operators often temporarily suspend the ability to gift or trade until they can come up with a way to prevent the exploits from occurring.

    This is a lot like that.
    Please remember I was addressing the faulty logic in the user statement that included: "I agree that it’s the actions of the minority that harmed the whole community, but doesn’t everything in life work this way?" Quoting out of context should be avoided in order to minimize confusion.
    The same could be said about allowing for colloquialisms. I'm assuming that when @xNig said "doesn't everything in life work this way" he didn't mean "whenever something bad happens, don't we always immediately ban all instances of that activity" but rather that in real life, this is always an option that gets considered, and when the tradeoff seems warranted that option is used, even if it seems to constrain the vast majority of people who are not bad actors just to limit the actions of the very few.

    If this is always something to be considered a valid option, we can't fault Kabam for exercising that option without knowing what the specific tradeoffs actually were. Without knowing what those were, saying Kabam "could have" or "should have" done something different implies that even when you don't know what the alternatives are, the alternatives are always better. Which is tantamount to saying this option should never be considered in the first place. Except everywhere else in the real world, this option is always on the table.
  • Mechanech1Mechanech1 Posts: 12
    What I find even more disturbing, is not one moderator from kabam has commented on the subject. It's like they are not even going to acknowledge the player base concern.
  • Wakandas_FinestWakandas_Finest Posts: 275 ★★
    Dshu said:

    Dshu said:

    It

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Dshu said:

    Lormif said:

    Drooped2 said:

    To be fair, I understand that people are upset. I'm not trying to snub them off. I'm just explaining what's going on so people understand. This was necessary. People were being scammed and frauded. That goes beyond just the monetary value in a multitude of ways.

    Correct I bought a gifting badge and got scammed because I dont have it.

    Fixing fraud by committing fraud? That's a new solution for sure
    This is not fraud, it is hardly even a bait and switch since the gifting badge had a value of 0
    If the badge had a value of 0 why wasn't it available in game for purchase with units or added to all unit offers. It appears to be valued at 30 dollars since that is the only way to get it
    It is not valued at $30, 850 units is. As an added bonus you could get the free gifting badge. You get $30 value from the units and a FREE gifting badge.
    If the badge is free why are you required to buy the 30 dollar deal to get it. The units are free the badge costs 30 dollars
    the unit package costs $30, you can go look now.
    Free is something you get without cost. Was there ever a way to get a permanent gifting badge without spending money? Was the gifting badge offered whith any other in game purchases at lower price point? If the only way to get the permanent gifting badge was from the 30 dollar offer then that was what people were buying. Any units or other items that were given at the time of purchase would have been the bonus items. Yes the unit pack is the same cost as the one offered with the gifting badge but that isn't the point. The only way to get the permanent badge is to spend 30 dollars so it was never free.
    mathematically you got it without cost. you paid $30 for 850 units, you got 850 units, that leaves a net 0, you then for that 0 got a gifting badge. It was a free incentive to get you tobuy because they known on average if they can get you to buy they can get you to buy more
    You keep going back to the fact that it came with units but is it available in any other way in the game or through any other offer. Show me any other way to get this item and I'll gladly except your argument
    I dont have to..If you go to the store and you see a lollipop and they said free lollipop with the purchase of a $1 candy bar, if you by the candy bar and dont like the lollipop they are not going to give you any money back, it was free. You buying the candy bar only because it came with the lollipop does not matter.
    Where in that offer does it state the gifting badge is the free item.
    It's implied since the unit offer is always 850 units for $30 the fact that you are getting an additional item at no extra cost implies that the additional item is free
    Implied? So it doesn't actually state it. So it's an assumption that the badge is the free item. I guess that by this logic we must assume kabam always has the summoners best interests in mind when making these decisions and we who question it are all wrong and should remain silent. Makes perfect sense
    Pretty big leap in logic by you but it doesn't change the fact that the everyday offer is 850 units for $30. Anything added to that offer without adding to the cost is logically free. You are getting an additional item at no extra cost how is that not free
    Exactly where is the leap in logic? You said its implied so it's your assumption that the badge is free. If it's a free item how else can it be obtained in the game?
    You can change the terms of the offer to fit your argument. The offer is and always has been 850 units for $30. Any item added, at no extra cost, no matter what it is or where else in the game it may or may not be obtained is logically a free item. You made the choice to only buy it because of the badge. If you bought it for the units and the badge then you already got your moneys worth. If you spent the units then you've already gotten your money worth.
  • Drooped2Drooped2 Posts: 3,137 ★★★★★
    Dshu said:

    I go to a car dealership to buy a Corvette. I buy the car with a v8 engine. A few weeks later the dealership comes buy takes my engine and replaced it with a 4 cylinder engine. They can apparently do this because a minority of people were driving too fast and the car is still a Corvette correct. Just trying to understand your logic

    You complain to them and demand a second Corvette brought to you while keeping the original.


    Just trying to understand logic too
  • elgaberinoelgaberino Posts: 38
    $30 is 850 units in the store. You sent us 300 units to compensate us for the “permanent” item for which we paid $30. Why do you think this is ok?
  • DramioneDramione Posts: 61
    It really bothers me that Kabam is unable to see the injustice in punishing the majority for the actions of the few.

    I guess it doesn't care, as long as its coffers are protected.
  • Fig58Fig58 Posts: 3

    OMC_Pinto said:

    I would like to see Kabam comment on the factors for determining that 300 units was the ideal amount? People who have used the gifting badge after purchase prob spen

  • Wakandas_FinestWakandas_Finest Posts: 275 ★★

    What I find even more disturbing, is not one moderator from kabam has commented on the subject. It's like they are not even going to acknowledge the player base concern.

    Kabam has commented several times throughout this thread
  • GroundedWisdomGroundedWisdom Posts: 17,703 ★★★★★
    I've said this before, and I'll say it again. People need to read the TOS thoroughly.
  • MjolinarMjolinar Posts: 108

    What I find even more disturbing, is not one moderator from kabam has commented on the subject. It's like they are not even going to acknowledge the player base concern.

    They don’t care. They know based off experience this thread will go off topic based on trolls, and give it a week or a single perceived “good” offer everyone will forget about it. Happened how many times now? In the end people keep spending and kabam keeps laughing at their “loyal customers” (eg addicts)
  • KpatrixKpatrix Posts: 921 ★★★
    Honestly, this whole problem was brought about by Kabam themselves by overpricing in game resources like revives, pots, and refills while anping up difficulty and introducing things like map 7 with ridiculous cost and war seasons where it was obvious from season one that the worst was being brought out in people to get the top rewards. They created a scenario where fraud would thrive, and as a stop gap fix to it they took away a permanent purchased item.

    The fraud won't stop with the gifting badge gone, cheaters and the like will always find a way around it. The legit players are the ones who are always losing out, and it will always be this way. People will just use stolen credit cards to buy iTunes or Google play cards and sell those at a discount instead,

    Maybe try reducing the costs of items or increasing the benefit of them (percentage based alliance pots and revives) would go a long way to stop the fraudulent behavior. When things needed to compete at a high level so many aspire too, and with costs so high, it's just an invitation to fraud plain and simple.
  • ezgoingezgoing Posts: 184
    I am f2p and only ever bought the freaking $30 deal for the gifting badge. So that I can be a responsible ally mate to help my other allly members.

    Other than that, I think the only other purchase I made to feed this freaking greedy mess of a company was a $1 4-star champ deal kabam offered way back.

    I don’t want 300 units, I don’t want 850 units, I want my money back!!!!

    Heck, I will give you back 850 units kabam, if u want to be calculative about things! That’s how much I value your stupid units which I have no problem getting from F2P ways.
This discussion has been closed.