Easier solution. Scrap seasons and incorporate rewards into AW victory bonuses.
Honestly, I don't see a world in which that's gonna happen. If Seasons are scrapped, those rewards will be too. The reason that the Season's rewards can be as good as they are is because of how competitive the game mode is.
How about you remove War Rating altogether and instead replace it with Win/Loss/Tie records? That way, alliances with the higher W/L/T ratios are faced with other alliances with similar W/L/T ratios.
"Well can't you still tank and face alliances with lower W/L/T ratios?" -- True, you can. What I propose to mediate this issue would be that each tier requires a certain W/L/T ratios. The higher the ratio, the higher the tier you are in. What do you think?
You need war rating to bootstrap the process, otherwise tier 1 alliances will be matching against tier 18 alliances randomly in round one.
Please fix war tanking! I want to be able to play wars again in off-season. The problem is that everyone is tanking!
For those who don't know what tanking is: Tanking is trying to lose wars on purpose during off-season to lower your rating and to get matched up with easier alliances during the war season, so you get more wins and higher season rewards with minimal effort.
We, as an alliance, are forced to tank, because if we don't tank then we will be facing alliances like MMXIV, NYC Guardians, etc which would just result in an instant loss cause we can't compete with their roster. This would then result in getting lower season rewards than we are supposed to get.
At the moment no wars are being played during off-season, at least in the higher ranks, and every war results in a tie (no defenders placed, no one joins attack), meaning: no rewards, no shards, no loyalty, nothing. The result of every war ending in ties is that everyone stays in the same place with their war rating, and tanking has essentially just become a strategy to face against alliances at YOUR OWN SKILL LEVEL.
Therefore I propose a very easy solution to fix tanking:
Freeze rating during off-season so losing/winning wars has no effect on your season ranking.
forced to tank???
really???
someone held a gun to ur head and told you they would shoot u if you didnt tank???
you need to play lower alliance than where you currently sit to get the rewards you are supposed to get????
um..
umm...
ummm....
uummm.....
that makes no sense.
to ge tthe rewards you are supposed to get you will compete in the competition in a fair manner that the competition is designed to be played in. and you will be able to beat some alliances and lose to some others around you.
you will get the rewards you are supposed to get by playing wars as you are supposed to.
you are manipulating the system to your advantage to also manipulate the rewards you will obtain.
if you cant fight alliances why MMXIV and NYCC then you understand why they are at the top and deserve to be there.
with an attitude like this you dont deserve to be there with them
Have rating start to drop after not participating in 3 wars, then even if they do start to match with the shell members it's not like they have a chance at winning at high tiers
It creates other problems. Beyond the obvious - alliances can no longer try to improve their tier during the off season - it creates other problems when it comes to normal recruitment and replacing members. Suppose an alliance loses a couple players to retirement, and finds two new players to replace them. But these players came from an alliance that didn't fight alliance wars. They have a personal war rating of zero, and instantly drag down the alliance's tier. Which might cause alliances to not give such players as much of a chance during recruitment.
If these are problems. They are smaller ones than what we have currently.
Why should alliances be allowed to improve their ratings during the normal 1 week offseason? Most are saving items when the matches count. Just like games out of season in other leagues. Makes most sense to improve your rating only during in season matches.
If players are unproven they can move up step by step by joining gold/platinum alliances to improve their rating. Currently you need have proven experience to join higher ranked alliances in the form of references and videos of previous AW experience. A personal war rating may even help recruitment in verifying the necessary skill/experience.
Have rating start to drop after not participating in 3 wars, then even if they do start to match with the shell members it's not like they have a chance at winning at high tiers
As far as I'm aware, most rating manipulations don't seek to drop rating by a lot, just enough so that the rewards and multiplier are still the same but the competition is weaker. This sounds like it could itself be manipulated into lowering rating by exactly the amount desired by just sitting out a few wars in the off season. Then you wouldn't even need shells anymore.
Freezing the ratings could work, but limits those looking to improve. Perhaps have two separate types of wars during the off season. Competitive ones where you can change war ratings and you can then punish those who do not even try to compete, and one just for shards that does not alter war rating. The just for shards one can offer a lower amount of shards than normal, even half the regular rewards as there is nothing on the line.
Have rating start to drop after not participating in 3 wars, then even if they do start to match with the shell members it's not like they have a chance at winning at high tiers
As far as I'm aware, most rating manipulations don't seek to drop rating by a lot, just enough so that the rewards and multiplier are still the same but the competition is weaker. This sounds like it could itself be manipulated into lowering rating by exactly the amount desired by just sitting out a few wars in the off season. Then you wouldn't even need shells anymore.
Not really bc they'd be losing rating for an entire season instead of holding a war rating while in a shell and then being able to reduce the previous rating during the next offseason.
If an alliance started dropping rating after 3 missed wars that's essentially 9 losses during the season. That's FAR more than anyone wants to tank
No shell alliance is winning a war in higher tiers with shell members regardless. That's why they just abstain from matchmaking as they hold a war rating for an entire season until members switch.
If you force matching to maintain rating, then it's pretty much 12 losses in a season let alone 9.
That makes no sense whatsoever for starting a new alliance
A new alliance has 0 rating in the current system. Each week you can reasonably gain 150 rating. One week offseason freeze won’t matter much much.
It doesn't matter much to you but I'm sure it does to them.
Freezing ratings just does more harm than good. Making alliance prestige more important in matching would do more for equal matches than trying to deal with tanking itself.
I just don't see tanking as that big of an issue. People complain about artificially raised ratings due to other alliances tanking, well then don't match in offseason or don't place a defense yourself. If you're concerned about practicing attack in offseason, if you don't place but your opponent does, you still get to test things on attack.
I wish my current and last few alliances didn't tank to some extent in offseason but as group that was decided. I don't agree with or like it but it's still a legitimate strategy and I don't personally think it makes much of a beneficial difference from what I've seen
What’s the difference if top alliances “tank” and start a season in a tier or two lower to start a season, or they lose the first 3 wars of the season and drop down a tier or two by the second week. Guess who you might match up against for the last half of the season. Either way, you won’t be able to avoid potentially facing tougher alliances at some point in the season if you’re winning.
An alliance can not enlist the first war of the season and drop back a tier. The next week or two, they’ll face “easier” alliances and be right where they started at the beginning of the season with a week left to use items to push for a higher tier.
My point is there are plenty of ways to strategize within the terms of service.
If worried about alliances not being able to increase war rating in offseason, then the simple solution is there is no penalty for defeat in offseason but victory bonus remains (or say cut in half). Alliances may still tank offseason to prevent increasing rating and that leaves it up to other alliance if they want to tank as well or go for easy rewards and some rating increase
i hate it when you post a msg and then it gets held for approval.
by the time it shows up it ends up buried under alot of other posts.
so annoying.
(which is why i am quoting myself here)
Please fix war tanking! I want to be able to play wars again in off-season. The problem is that everyone is tanking!
For those who don't know what tanking is: Tanking is trying to lose wars on purpose during off-season to lower your rating and to get matched up with easier alliances during the war season, so you get more wins and higher season rewards with minimal effort.
We, as an alliance, are forced to tank, because if we don't tank then we will be facing alliances like MMXIV, NYC Guardians, etc which would just result in an instant loss cause we can't compete with their roster. This would then result in getting lower season rewards than we are supposed to get.
At the moment no wars are being played during off-season, at least in the higher ranks, and every war results in a tie (no defenders placed, no one joins attack), meaning: no rewards, no shards, no loyalty, nothing. The result of every war ending in ties is that everyone stays in the same place with their war rating, and tanking has essentially just become a strategy to face against alliances at YOUR OWN SKILL LEVEL.
Therefore I propose a very easy solution to fix tanking:
Freeze rating during off-season so losing/winning wars has no effect on your season ranking.
forced to tank???
really???
someone held a gun to ur head and told you they would shoot u if you didnt tank???
you need to play lower alliance than where you currently sit to get the rewards you are supposed to get????
um..
umm...
ummm....
uummm.....
that makes no sense.
to ge tthe rewards you are supposed to get you will compete in the competition in a fair manner that the competition is designed to be played in. and you will be able to beat some alliances and lose to some others around you.
you will get the rewards you are supposed to get by playing wars as you are supposed to.
you are manipulating the system to your advantage to also manipulate the rewards you will obtain.
if you cant fight alliances why MMXIV and NYCC then you understand why they are at the top and deserve to be there.
with an attitude like this you dont deserve to be there with them
Alliances intentionally manipulate WR in order to give themselves an unfair advantage during the season by increasing the likelihood of matching lesser alliances while decreasing the likelihood of matching alliances where they would normal face at their level. In any sport this is condisdered cheating and it’s defined as sandbagging so GL trying to pull the wool over anyones eyes; it’s really no surprise to see people trying to argue it’s fair play because that is exactly the personality type that employs methods like sandbagging.
“Sandbagging is used in competitive sports, careers and even social situations. It’s a form of manipulation used to gain the upper hand, and it’s subtly devious.
I became familiar with sandbagging some years ago. This form of manipulation is unlike any other tactic used by narcissists and toxic individuals. In fact, this act of dominance is seen in the ranks of reputable people, just the same as what you might call the “low-life”. It’s used as a normal way to gain control of any given situation.
Sandbagging is a marked characteristic of high and low Machs (Machiavellians). Nicollo Machiavelli, author of The Prince, in 1513, brought the act of sandbagging into the light. In his book, he promotes the idea of rising in pollical power, to eliminating those who would deem to be stronger, thus, gaining in strength among the weak, using all possible means.”
i hate it when you post a msg and then it gets held for approval.
by the time it shows up it ends up buried under alot of other posts.
so annoying.
(which is why i am quoting myself here)
Please fix war tanking! I want to be able to play wars again in off-season. The problem is that everyone is tanking!
For those who don't know what tanking is: Tanking is trying to lose wars on purpose during off-season to lower your rating and to get matched up with easier alliances during the war season, so you get more wins and higher season rewards with minimal effort.
We, as an alliance, are forced to tank, because if we don't tank then we will be facing alliances like MMXIV, NYC Guardians, etc which would just result in an instant loss cause we can't compete with their roster. This would then result in getting lower season rewards than we are supposed to get.
At the moment no wars are being played during off-season, at least in the higher ranks, and every war results in a tie (no defenders placed, no one joins attack), meaning: no rewards, no shards, no loyalty, nothing. The result of every war ending in ties is that everyone stays in the same place with their war rating, and tanking has essentially just become a strategy to face against alliances at YOUR OWN SKILL LEVEL.
Therefore I propose a very easy solution to fix tanking:
Freeze rating during off-season so losing/winning wars has no effect on your season ranking.
forced to tank???
really???
someone held a gun to ur head and told you they would shoot u if you didnt tank???
you need to play lower alliance than where you currently sit to get the rewards you are supposed to get????
um..
umm...
ummm....
uummm.....
that makes no sense.
to ge tthe rewards you are supposed to get you will compete in the competition in a fair manner that the competition is designed to be played in. and you will be able to beat some alliances and lose to some others around you.
you will get the rewards you are supposed to get by playing wars as you are supposed to.
you are manipulating the system to your advantage to also manipulate the rewards you will obtain.
if you cant fight alliances why MMXIV and NYCC then you understand why they are at the top and deserve to be there.
with an attitude like this you dont deserve to be there with them
Your logic contradicts itself. You’re saying no one is forcing an alliance to tank, which is true. On the other hand, who is forcing alliances to spend to maintain their AW level/rating (to keep facing MMXIV and NYCC)??
@CoatHang3r where do you see that in terms of service?
he doesnt say it is in TOS.
but that does not mean it is not a form of cheating.
it is by definition MANIPULATION.
manipulating the system to gain an unfair advantage is cheating.
even if you want to argue it is not against the rules,
it is clearly unsportsman like behavior and against the spirit of the contest.
@CoatHang3r where do you see that in terms of service?
he doesnt say it is in TOS.
but that does not mean it is not a form of cheating.
it is by definition MANIPULATION.
manipulating the system to gain an unfair advantage is cheating.
even if you want to argue it is not against the rules,
it is clearly unsportsman like behavior and against the spirit of the contest.
I haven’t said it’s not a form of cheating/manipulation. I’m pointing out that alliances are still in the right to do this tactic since it doesn’t violate TOS.
In other words, it might not be ethical but it’s not illegal so how can kabam hand out punishment?
i hate it when you post a msg and then it gets held for approval.
by the time it shows up it ends up buried under alot of other posts.
so annoying.
(which is why i am quoting myself here)
Please fix war tanking! I want to be able to play wars again in off-season. The problem is that everyone is tanking!
For those who don't know what tanking is: Tanking is trying to lose wars on purpose during off-season to lower your rating and to get matched up with easier alliances during the war season, so you get more wins and higher season rewards with minimal effort.
We, as an alliance, are forced to tank, because if we don't tank then we will be facing alliances like MMXIV, NYC Guardians, etc which would just result in an instant loss cause we can't compete with their roster. This would then result in getting lower season rewards than we are supposed to get.
At the moment no wars are being played during off-season, at least in the higher ranks, and every war results in a tie (no defenders placed, no one joins attack), meaning: no rewards, no shards, no loyalty, nothing. The result of every war ending in ties is that everyone stays in the same place with their war rating, and tanking has essentially just become a strategy to face against alliances at YOUR OWN SKILL LEVEL.
Therefore I propose a very easy solution to fix tanking:
Freeze rating during off-season so losing/winning wars has no effect on your season ranking.
forced to tank???
really???
someone held a gun to ur head and told you they would shoot u if you didnt tank???
you need to play lower alliance than where you currently sit to get the rewards you are supposed to get????
um..
umm...
ummm....
uummm.....
that makes no sense.
to ge tthe rewards you are supposed to get you will compete in the competition in a fair manner that the competition is designed to be played in. and you will be able to beat some alliances and lose to some others around you.
you will get the rewards you are supposed to get by playing wars as you are supposed to.
you are manipulating the system to your advantage to also manipulate the rewards you will obtain.
if you cant fight alliances why MMXIV and NYCC then you understand why they are at the top and deserve to be there.
with an attitude like this you dont deserve to be there with them
Your logic contradicts itself. You’re saying no one is forcing an alliance to tank, which is true. On the other hand, who is forcing alliances to spend to maintain their AW level/rating (to keep facing MMXIV and NYCC)??
nothing at all contradicts anything.
noone is forcing anyone to do anything.
these are all choices one makes because they want a particular result.
My alliance is happy with t6 wars cus it is not to hard, does not require spending to maintain and the rewards of gold1 are enough for us to be happy with
@CoatHang3r where do you see that in terms of service?
he doesnt say it is in TOS.
but that does not mean it is not a form of cheating.
it is by definition MANIPULATION.
manipulating the system to gain an unfair advantage is cheating.
even if you want to argue it is not against the rules,
it is clearly unsportsman like behavior and against the spirit of the contest.
You say that but in every sport I've ever watched in games or periods that dont matter the coach often benches the star players to save them for games that do matter.
that is infact good sportsmanship.
but they do not intentionally lose.
they put in less effort but still try and win.
each player on the field still puts in maximum effort.
it is a coaching descsion to try new things.
this would be akin to an alliance trying out different defence and different attack teams.
@CoatHang3r where do you see that in terms of service?
he doesnt say it is in TOS.
but that does not mean it is not a form of cheating.
it is by definition MANIPULATION.
manipulating the system to gain an unfair advantage is cheating.
even if you want to argue it is not against the rules,
it is clearly unsportsman like behavior and against the spirit of the contest.
I haven’t said it’s not a form of cheating/manipulation. I’m pointing out that alliances are still in the right to do this tactic since it doesn’t violate TOS.
In other words, it might not be ethical but it’s not illegal so how can kabam hand out punishment?
i understand kabam may not be able to hand out punishment.
but as it is against the spirit of the game they could and should,
and infact are looking at ways to prevent it happening in the future.
Comments
You need war rating to bootstrap the process, otherwise tier 1 alliances will be matching against tier 18 alliances randomly in round one.
This: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/741678/#Comment_741678 is my version of this idea.
It is a piece of a larger idea I've tossed around periodically since maybe season three or four: https://forums.playcontestofchampions.com/en/discussion/comment/665551/#Comment_665551.
forced to tank???
really???
someone held a gun to ur head and told you they would shoot u if you didnt tank???
you need to play lower alliance than where you currently sit to get the rewards you are supposed to get????
um..
umm...
ummm....
uummm.....
that makes no sense.
to ge tthe rewards you are supposed to get you will compete in the competition in a fair manner that the competition is designed to be played in. and you will be able to beat some alliances and lose to some others around you.
you will get the rewards you are supposed to get by playing wars as you are supposed to.
you are manipulating the system to your advantage to also manipulate the rewards you will obtain.
if you cant fight alliances why MMXIV and NYCC then you understand why they are at the top and deserve to be there.
with an attitude like this you dont deserve to be there with them
That makes no sense whatsoever for starting a new alliance
If these are problems. They are smaller ones than what we have currently.
Why should alliances be allowed to improve their ratings during the normal 1 week offseason? Most are saving items when the matches count. Just like games out of season in other leagues. Makes most sense to improve your rating only during in season matches.
If players are unproven they can move up step by step by joining gold/platinum alliances to improve their rating. Currently you need have proven experience to join higher ranked alliances in the form of references and videos of previous AW experience. A personal war rating may even help recruitment in verifying the necessary skill/experience.
As far as I'm aware, most rating manipulations don't seek to drop rating by a lot, just enough so that the rewards and multiplier are still the same but the competition is weaker. This sounds like it could itself be manipulated into lowering rating by exactly the amount desired by just sitting out a few wars in the off season. Then you wouldn't even need shells anymore.
So you're now admitting that your suggestion does in fact harm alliances, just alliances you don't mind harming.
remove/reduce the win bonus.
that way a loss in t2 will still net more points than a win in t3.
add a bonus for when you beat an alliance with a higher WR.
that way there is an incentive to beat stronger alliances instead of facing lower ones.
How does it ‘harm’ anyone?
A new alliance has 0 rating in the current system. Each week you can reasonably gain 150 rating. One week offseason freeze won’t matter much much.
Not really bc they'd be losing rating for an entire season instead of holding a war rating while in a shell and then being able to reduce the previous rating during the next offseason.
If an alliance started dropping rating after 3 missed wars that's essentially 9 losses during the season. That's FAR more than anyone wants to tank
If you force matching to maintain rating, then it's pretty much 12 losses in a season let alone 9.
It doesn't matter much to you but I'm sure it does to them.
Freezing ratings just does more harm than good. Making alliance prestige more important in matching would do more for equal matches than trying to deal with tanking itself.
I wish my current and last few alliances didn't tank to some extent in offseason but as group that was decided. I don't agree with or like it but it's still a legitimate strategy and I don't personally think it makes much of a beneficial difference from what I've seen
An alliance can not enlist the first war of the season and drop back a tier. The next week or two, they’ll face “easier” alliances and be right where they started at the beginning of the season with a week left to use items to push for a higher tier.
My point is there are plenty of ways to strategize within the terms of service.
by the time it shows up it ends up buried under alot of other posts.
so annoying.
(which is why i am quoting myself here)
https://www.learning-mind.com/sandbagging-tactic/
“Sandbagging is used in competitive sports, careers and even social situations. It’s a form of manipulation used to gain the upper hand, and it’s subtly devious.
I became familiar with sandbagging some years ago. This form of manipulation is unlike any other tactic used by narcissists and toxic individuals. In fact, this act of dominance is seen in the ranks of reputable people, just the same as what you might call the “low-life”. It’s used as a normal way to gain control of any given situation.
Sandbagging is a marked characteristic of high and low Machs (Machiavellians). Nicollo Machiavelli, author of The Prince, in 1513, brought the act of sandbagging into the light. In his book, he promotes the idea of rising in pollical power, to eliminating those who would deem to be stronger, thus, gaining in strength among the weak, using all possible means.”
Your logic contradicts itself. You’re saying no one is forcing an alliance to tank, which is true. On the other hand, who is forcing alliances to spend to maintain their AW level/rating (to keep facing MMXIV and NYCC)??
he doesnt say it is in TOS.
but that does not mean it is not a form of cheating.
it is by definition MANIPULATION.
manipulating the system to gain an unfair advantage is cheating.
even if you want to argue it is not against the rules,
it is clearly unsportsman like behavior and against the spirit of the contest.
I haven’t said it’s not a form of cheating/manipulation. I’m pointing out that alliances are still in the right to do this tactic since it doesn’t violate TOS.
In other words, it might not be ethical but it’s not illegal so how can kabam hand out punishment?
nothing at all contradicts anything.
noone is forcing anyone to do anything.
these are all choices one makes because they want a particular result.
My alliance is happy with t6 wars cus it is not to hard, does not require spending to maintain and the rewards of gold1 are enough for us to be happy with
that is infact good sportsmanship.
but they do not intentionally lose.
they put in less effort but still try and win.
each player on the field still puts in maximum effort.
it is a coaching descsion to try new things.
this would be akin to an alliance trying out different defence and different attack teams.
i understand kabam may not be able to hand out punishment.
but as it is against the spirit of the game they could and should,
and infact are looking at ways to prevent it happening in the future.